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| #1JS20Jan 25, 2015 10:54:07 | Again, like my druid thread, I'm curious about the history of the paladin. I know that in general, paladins are drawn from things like Arthurian legend. But I don't believe any of them actually wielded divine spells.
Where did the idea of divine spells for paladins come from? D&D or somewhere else? What edition did it first show up in?
Fianlly, can anyone recommended good books that focus on paladins? D&D, Dragonlance, anything else, etc. I've read the Dresden files and love it, so something other than that. I like my paladins as kick butt holy warriors that throw holy magic around with glowing swords, healing, etc. Any suggestions? |
| #2paulstraitJan 25, 2015 13:08:04 | Paladins in 1e and 2e could cast cleric spells, but not until they reached level 9. Back then, it was rare to be able to play a paladin, because you rolled for your stats, and the default method was 3d6 6 times in order. Even with 4d6 drop the lowest X6 and assign, you still weren't guaranteed to be able to play a paladin, bc you needed a strength of 12, a constitution of 9, a wisdom of 13, and a charisma of 17. I think that following the normal ability score method, you'd roll up a character that would qualify less than 2% of the time.
I'm not sure where the idea came from, but I suspect one possibility is the idea of holy warriors fighting during the crusades.
The 2e players handbook entry on paladins is interesting -- they had some interesting restrictions, like they couldn't possess more than 10 magical items, and they couldn't retain wealth (he could keep enough to "support himself in a modest manner, pay his henchmen, men-at-arms, and servitors a reasonable rate, and to construct or maintain a small castle or keep... All excess must be donated to the church or another worthy cause") and they also had to tithe 10% of their loot. I'd also recommend the 2e Complete Paladin's Handbook, which has all sorts of lore, variants, role-playing suggestions, examples of Holy Orders, etc. Here's the bibliography that it provides:
Traditional Stories
Fiction Sources
Film and Video
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| #3ankiyavonJan 25, 2015 12:55:19 | The earliest spellcasting paladin that I personally am aware of comes from D&D, but also not really.
The D&D paladin is based in large part on the Knight Templar of medieval history. A Knight Templar was a member of a church's military order; basically a fighter-cleric. Since D&D clerics can cast spells, the paladin got spellcasting as well.
As far as which D&D edition was the first one with a spellcasting paladin, all of them, I believe. I checked my BECMI RC and it has spellcasting paladins. I'm not aware of any edition of D&D that has a nonmagical paladin. (Although I've seen some retroclones with non-spellcasting paladins.) |
| #4NevvurJan 25, 2015 12:58:15 | Your questions got me curious, but there's not much to go on Internet-research wise other than the class appears to have been inspired by the character of Holger Carlsen in Three Hearts and Three Lions. As for why they wield divine magic, this is only speculation, but I think it's safe to guess the class concept came before choosing the class name. Fighter-cleric hybrid ----> holy warrior ----> "What's a cool title for a warrior aligned with the church?" Gygax may as easily have gone with the class name "Crusader," "Zealot," or "Champion." In the end, he probably just thought paladin sounded best.
In fiction, the divine magic using knight is going to be fairly limited to D&D novels, and stuff inspired by it. Warcraft books probably feature them, like Turalyon and Uther and others. Magic: The Gathering fiction might also. Wish I could suggest specific books, but you might find what you're looking for browsing through their synopses.
One of my favorite series of all time, The Malazan Book of the Fallen, does not focus highly on paladins, but the gods in that setting are often represented by a mortal triumvirate -Shield Anvil, Mortal Sword, and Destriant. The last is more like a cleric/prophet, but the first two are very paladin-like. |
| #5paulstraitJan 25, 2015 13:06:50 |
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| #6Tempest_StormwindJan 25, 2015 15:17:17 | Well, for given values of "divine magic", at least. Many real-world sources ascribe minor miracles, angelic protection, or divine guidance to holy warriors, and those would definitely fall under the umbrella term "divine magic" were any of this to really exist. (For example, Jeanne d'Arc claimed to hear the words of God, and her influence on her allies and survival on the battlefield were ascribed to the work of God - at least by those who she wasn't fighting against. (Jeanne isn't a perfect fit because, despite some depictions, she didn't actually fight. But since we're talking about magic-wielding divine agents here, I think a bit of historical leeway is called for.))
I'd also like to note that while the Templars are undoubtedly a very strong influence on the concept (and a very good match, thematically, all told), the term "paladin" was specifically referring to Charlemange's knights, who were active some 400 years prior to the Templars and are, quite possibly, a better overall match, particularly for the "noble" paladin theme.
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| #7JS20Jan 25, 2015 16:43:48 | In the Three Hearts and Three Lions novel, does the main chatacter actually cast spells or is he just a devout warrior? Does the Deed of Paksenarrion contain holy magic from the paladin as well? |
| #8rampantJan 25, 2015 16:52:43 | Blame Galahad. |
| #9lawrencehoyJan 25, 2015 17:07:54 |
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| #10ShasarakJan 25, 2015 17:27:20 |
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| #11arderkragJan 25, 2015 18:08:42 | I always figured the Templars were the basis of the class. "God wills it" easily becomes "Helm wills it". |
| #12IllithidbixJan 25, 2015 18:56:17 | Looking at the earliest book I think Paladins turned up in: D&D Supplement I - Greyhawk (1975) Where paladisn were a subtype of Fighters (Fighting Men!), they didn't actually cast spells, but they had the ability to Lay on Hands 1/day, were immune to disease and at 8th level they could Dispel Evil and detect evil. Oh and got their magic horse.
I believe Paladins with Cleric spells first turned up with AD&D 1st Edition's Player's Handbook in 1978, but they only got Cleric spells from 9th level or so.
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| (Reply to #8)Azzy1974 |
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| #14lawrencehoyJan 26, 2015 11:25:15 |
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| #15ShasarakJan 26, 2015 11:47:23 |
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| #16LlenlleawgJan 27, 2015 0:32:46 | Paladins have had miraculous powers since they were first introduced in the supplement Greyhawk (1975) for the original rules. Here's the original paladin in all his glory (p. 8, emphasis mine):
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| #17LlenlleawgJan 27, 2015 0:45:59 | To add to the otherwise excellent list above for inspirational literature re: paladins, I would add Stephen Lawhead's Pendragon Cycle, and in particular the final volume, Grail which is the most "supernatural" of the whole series and in which the spiritual battle against the forces of supernatural and spiritual evil are paramount. Oh, and there's fighting undead, too! |
| #18ChrisTheSJan 27, 2015 9:13:21 | There's also La Chanson de Roland, which involves an actual paladin with a holy sword with the power to smite and rebuke the infidel and pray for miracles with reasonable expectation of them occurring, making it not only an ur-example, but an ur-example that actually resembles the modern product fairly closely. |
| (Reply to #18)Llenlleawg |
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| #20ChrisTheSJan 27, 2015 10:00:43 | I said 'closely,' not 'exactly' :P And I believe (been a while since I've read it) at least once in the Song he prays for divine retribution to strike down his enemies and it does, without any additional action on his part. By the standards of most ur-examples, that's practically congruent
The 'healing hands' thing is mostly a French tradition as well, with its earliest documentation dating from about the same period, so it's easy to see how the two might be conflated. |
| #21RedSiegfriedJan 27, 2015 10:32:47 |
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| #22CVBJan 27, 2015 19:47:10 | If memory serves this book is the one that the Paladin is designed from, as well as the D&D Troll:
Anderson, Poul. Three Hearts and Three Lions.
A lot of early D&D was nothing more than a bunch of stuff they thought was cool and thrown in and mixed around. In fact, there was a lot of Mythos stuff from Lovecraft's universe. Before Chaosium scared the living rights out of TSR by fooling TSR into thinking that Chaosium owned the rights. (No one does, actually, it's Public Doman and has been for decades. Technically the Conan stuff is too, but if you have enough money, you can make the courts of the world believe anything.) |
| #23moonbeastJan 28, 2015 1:38:16 | Actually, D&D Paladins have been casting (clerical) spells since.... early 1980s (or late 70s) Probably with AD&D. That's when! ;)
But you are correct, that historical Paladins do not have a bunch of warriors going around and casting spells. However, historic/mythical Paladins were noted to have received "divine favor", which is why Arthur's round table Knights were able to achieve incredible legendary things. So in D&D game terms, Paladins are able to cast their minor (clerical) spells because they are "blessed" by divine favor from their deity.
Also the word paladin itself does not come from Arthurian or British legend. It comes from the French knights who served the historical Emperor Charlemagne (who was technically a Frankish king, hence he is Franco-Germanic in origin). The knights who served Charlemagne were the Knights Palatine, or the Paladins. The French word itself comes from the old Roman Empire. Palatinus (Latin) -- those in service of the Emperor, because the Emperor's residence was on the Palatine Hill in Rome. Similar to an Imperial (Praetorian) Guard.
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| (Reply to #23)Llenlleawg |
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| #25Brock_LandersJan 28, 2015 2:50:11 | Add an E at the end, and it's a Gargantuan Platinum Dragon. |