Please define "Gotcha DM," it isn't nearly as well known a term as Rules Lawyer. If it means what I think it does, then it probably predates the Rules Lawyer because no one except Gary and Dave understood the rules in the olden days.
Also, chicken or egg? Egg. Fact.
Back when I was 11 or so when I started playing D&D (Isle of Dread etc), we didn't care much for the rules. We obviously still used them, but we made up a lot of crazy stuff.
As we got older, we started to rules lawyer a bit more, as we started to expect a more consistent environment (and probably became more serious about the game). I also think as you become more experienced with the rules, some players (GM's included) have a tendancy to find exploits/loopholes/optimisations/etc.
Gotcha DM, for reasons The White Sorcerer alludes to. Gygax designed modules like Isle of the Ape from "Gotcha" campaign arcs he had used when he and Arneson were still developing the rules to challenge their high level characters/"experienced" players. In that respect, the Gotcha DM predates the official release of D&D.
Hm. Is this asking which absolutely, factually came first? Or which trend took off first?
bc I think we know EGG gotcha!ed even while disclaiming the proto rules lawyer.
As to which of these awful things got big first, I don't know at all.
Chakrum wrote:
Lady_Auralla wrote:
Old days yes, good well.....I will leave it up to individual taste. I walked out on that particular DM.
Chakrum wrote:
The_White_Sorcerer wrote:
DaveDash wrote:
The_White_Sorcerer wrote:
Chakrum wrote:
I would say the gotcha dm. The dm has all the power, and I've always seen rules lawyering as being a way to try to keep the dm in check. It sounds troll-ish, but I honestly do feel that something happens to people psychologically when he or she becomes dm, along the lines of, "power corrupts," and in my 30 year experience, they often abuse their power, or at least, borderline abuse it, and "gotcha" is one of their methods. And to an extent, I think rules lawyering was a reaction to this.
I found it a lot easier to keep the dm in check in 4ed, given that there was no "rule zero," i.e., "the dm is always right," compared to other editions (as well as in 5ed), as well as, keep himself in check by the parameters of the rules, rules which were "etched in stone." That is, there were not many rulings to be made, rather, there was just rules. It was a lot harder for him or her to, "gotcha!" But now, anything goes again, its DnD rules nihilism (and I say that light-heartedly). In 4ed, it seemed to be more, rules lawyer v. rules lawyer (just arguing the rules). But now I see rules lawyering back as an attempt to keep the dm in check, albeit, a feeble attempt, given that the dm is always right again.<--A step backwards, imho. Traditional, yes; traditional qualia, yes; but a bad design move based on a fallacy (viz, appeal to tradition), nevertheless, imho. (when I dm, I am quite the RAW dm, other than fixing loopholes, brokeness, cheese, and using a popular houserule, here and there).
In terms of people's cognisance of the definitions...
...clearly the Gotchya GM came first...
... after all, Rules Lawyers complain after the fact!
MykeSchultz wrote:
Chakrum wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
Gotcha DM. The Gotcha DM also runs the Gotcha Trap modules created by Gotcha Writers. You needed more rules before you could sufficiently rules lawyer.
Mecheon wrote:
This is actually a famous myth. Back in the days of yore, when the world of D&D gaming groups was young, there was a DM who set out on a quest to learn everything there was. He read every source book cover to cover, converting even the most obscure rules to memory. At first the DM used this power for good, creating wonderful campaigns and compelling adventures. But over time, the DM began to think that they were better than other players, even better than other DMs. The DM started using the knowledge for evil, creating unbeatable traps and monsters.
Things got worse and worse until news spread that the DM wanted to become a player as well. This was the last straw. The other DMs and players of the D&D gaming community banded together to defeat the DM. They split the DM in two, but this was not enough. Out of the halves sprung two new entities, formed from the warring aspects of the DM's own psyche. The first was a DM of pure evil, who delighted in killing PCs using any method. The rules meant nothing to this creature; its sole purpose was to trick the players into falling for obscure and unpredictable traps. The second was a Player made of pure logic and knowledge, without even a shred of creativity or imagination. Playing the game meant nothing to this one; its sole purpose was to quote the rules (using only the most convoluted literal meaning of every word).
Some say that these two creatures are still playing D&D somewhere, trapped in an endless loop of DM inflicted gotchas and Rules Lawyer quoted rebutals. Whatever the case may be, one thing is certain: all current Gotcha DMs and Rules Lawyers are decendants of these two primordial creatures.
Mecheon wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
Arithezoo wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Chakrum wrote:
thehobb wrote:
Arithezoo wrote:
Gygax was quite loose with rules from what I recall of the discussions and advice in the 1E AD&D DMG. They should be kicked aside if they're getting in the way of the game.
He wasn't a great believer that D&D should be "realistic" as well.
I also imagine that Gygax, like all decent DMs taliored the game to who he was running it to.
An introduction game designed for newbies like Cauldor played in would be very different to one run for his experienced players who relished the challenge of a deathtrap dungeon.
Also the GOTCHA! DM is only a problem if the players don't want to play that game.
Some people aren't fussed by character death and enjoy the sort of deadly challange.
Thread strikes me as just another way to start another "DM Fiat" vs. "Player Empowerment" discusssion. There's no way to really know the answer. However, since we're having so much talk about EGG as the original DM, were I to attempt an answer, I would have to think that Rules Lawyering emerged from those early sessions first, since Gygax's 1E is so incredibly packed with minutiae, as compared to Moldvay, etc., D&D and its predecessors. If Gary wasn't worried about nitpicky players, why the need for all the specifics? Of course, he was creating a book for tournament play, from what I gather, so my own comments are likely well off base. Hard to say -- I've only run into one rules lawyer, and he disappeared from our table after exactly one session.
arnwolf666 wrote: