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| #1DKittenMay 26, 2015 8:21:32 | [PHB 206] All magic depends on the Weave, though different kinds of magic access it in a variety of ways. The spells of wizards, warlocks, sorcerers, and bards are commonly called arcane magic. These spells rely on an understanding— learned or intuitive—of the workings of the Weave. The caster plucks directly at the strands of the Weave to create the desired effect. Eldritch knights and arcane tricksters also use arcane magic. The spells of clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers are called divine magic. These spellcasters’ access to the Weave is mediated by divine power— gods, the divine forces of nature, or the sacred weight of a paladin’s oath.
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So, from what I can tell, both arcane and divine casters tap the same Weave. It's just that arcane casters have some sort of innate or studied understanding of the Weave directly, whereas divine casters do so through their god.
In either case, the potential to heal is latent in the Weave. Bards don't (necessarily) worship a god, yet they gain access to many of the same healing abilities that clerics or druids use. So bards can tap the healing partition of the Weave through their performance. But why not wizards, warlocks, or sorcerers? I'm not asking from a whining point, it's just something my DM and I were discussing before our game. He mentioned something like divine casters are seperate because they weren't affected by the Spellplague, but magic was, uh, reworked. |
| #2melloredMay 26, 2015 8:39:26 | The same reason why wizards don't get multiple attacks and paladins can't transform into bears. To make classes different.
Each one has strenghts and weaknesses. And a weakness of wizard is not having healing spells. |
| #3ArtifactMay 26, 2015 8:45:04 | Multiclassing into cleric might be one way to emulate such an arcane caster. The world of Fafhrd and Gray Mouser has 'white wizards' as I recall (clerics in D&D terms). |
| #4RCanineMay 26, 2015 8:53:39 | If you're talking about purely lore, and not game mechanics, I'd describe it as the differing perspectives leading them to not valuing healing as a discipline.
Warlocks do have healing in false life, and it's a very warlock-y take on it. Wizards might feel like healing is a waste of their considerable intellects, etc. These types of things happen in academia and commerce already—e.g. Phizer would rather put you on a daily pill for life than cure the thing that's wrong with you—you just need to figure out how that manifests in the game world. |
| #5RottleMay 26, 2015 9:33:35 |
Talking lore it would be dependent on world and all, forgotten realms came out I think at the tail end of 1 AD&D. Bards then we're actually divine not arcane casters and it is possible they still have that healing ability as a throw back to then. Tolkien wise could be things are created by the song of creation and music and song have great power to heal, as do the divine.
In the end your world and setting will decide the why and where for. As for the game machinical reasons I am sure others will express a need for balance/specialness which is as good as I can say. |
| #6DemoMonkeyMay 26, 2015 9:47:02 | The gods are jealous of the power to heal and preserve life, and deliberately cut all arcane casters off from it. Bards tell their tales and help spread belief in the gods, and so are granted an exemption.
... What? It's as good a reason as any. |
| #7Mommy_was_an_OrcMay 26, 2015 11:21:35 |
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| #8Tempest_StormwindMay 26, 2015 11:28:04 | And outside of Forgotten Realms, "arcane" and "divine" are meaningless in 5e anyway. |
| #9ArtifactMay 26, 2015 11:39:59 |
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| #10MechatarrasqueMay 26, 2015 11:48:41 | I figure the hp's being healed have to come from somewhere. Clerics tap the limitless hp's of the gods. Bards made a deal (every so many stories told will be about the gods in exchange for healing magic). Wizards would either have to make a deal (which is beneath the dignity of wizards) or provide the hp's themselves either from their own person (obviously not a good plan for wizards) or from some captive creature. The last option is why necromancers have a bad reputation. The sophistry some on the forums use to explain why necromancy isn't evil falls on deaf ears to lynch mobs and royalty that would prefer their serfs working the land instead of getting fireballed trying to keep wizards from stealing their kids and draining their lives (especially if the mobs are being egged on by clerics trying to keep their gig). |
| #11AshrymMay 26, 2015 13:29:45 |
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| (Reply to #2)arnwolf666 |
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| #13MiladoonMay 26, 2015 13:48:13 | "The city is flying and we're fighting an army of robots. And I have a bow and arrow. Nothing makes sense" - Clint Barton
And that is D&D |
| (Reply to #13)arnwolf666 |
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| (Reply to #14)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| #16FFSAAMay 26, 2015 14:59:07 | Wizards don't waste time with lesser magics. While it isn't like 3E where wizards can be the best healers in the game with mud to rock, they can still do plenty of healing with Wish and Gate.
If you want, add the spell "Power Word I'm Not Yo Momma: Summons target's Mother to fix their boo boos. What a cry baby!" |
| #17AshrymMay 26, 2015 15:11:28 |
A caster has to be an arcane caster (bard) for power word heal. It's not available to divine casters. |
| #18rampantMay 26, 2015 15:23:37 | Basically because wizards use an absurd mechanic for gaining new spells, cherry picking off an expansive list combined witht he ability to learn spells from said list via scrolls and book theft/trades the only way to ensure that any individual wizard PC never becomes too versatile or too powerful is to simply not put certain spells on the wizard spell list, sorcerors used to use the wizard list so they got the same banned spells, warlock is a bit newer but since they don't usually have quite as awful spell learning mechanics, and their magic tends to be a bit more specialized they don't learn much healing either. Bards are arcane healers and for a long time they were THE arcane healers so after a while it simply became TRADITION that arcane classes don't get healing magic or at least never anythign on the order of the clerics/druids, with again the possible exception of the bard.
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| #19maceo00May 26, 2015 15:57:36 | There is the Favored Soul origin for the Sorcerer too. |
| #20arnwolf666May 26, 2015 15:58:54 | There really is nothing imbalancing about giving wizards healing spells, they have a fine number of spell slots. It's just they have more efficient roles for the party. If the are preparing healing spells it will make the party less effective from what I have seen. There's not enough slots for them to do it all. |
| (Reply to #18)Ashrym |
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| #22arnwolf666May 26, 2015 16:09:10 | I personally allow wizards the use of any spell in the game. |
| #23NoonMay 26, 2015 16:10:07 | It's because magic is based on intelligence - and intelligence can't understand hit points are an abstraction! Just look at all the 'what are hitpoints??' threads that crop up!
It takes some wisdom to just deal with it as it appears to be rather than having to utterly understand it before healing it! |
| #24AshrymMay 26, 2015 16:15:36 |
The analogy I might use is a cabinet maker versus a logger. Just because they both work with wood doesn't mean they produce the same products. |
| #25Sword_of_SpiritMay 26, 2015 16:35:51 |
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| #26GrazelMay 26, 2015 17:29:04 | Wizards do gain some healing magics, though often with a cost (vampiric touch). It's not about capability of magic, but the focus of the caster. Wizards are generally going to be more selfish so any healing they would want is just for themselves and they're willing to steal it from another person to get it. Not all clerics will use healing magic either.
FR takes it a step further and in a previous edition it was declared that Mystra forbade wizards and other arcane casters from accessing purely healing magics (like cure wounds) as that was meant to be a function of the Weave reserved for the followers of the other gods. Note that Mystra never had clerics of her own, just worshippers. Just because all casters interact with the Weave, and most aren't even aware of the Weave itself, doesn't mean they're granted the same access. The Weave isn't a force unto itself. It is created by and maintained by Mystra. The original Mystra didn't have the Weave. It was the Netherese who forced the second Mystra to create the Weave and restrict magic. Then the Spellplague and Mystra's apparent death caused the Weave to go away and magic was fundamentally different. This is how 4th Edition AED magic was explained since it was overall less powerful but more readily accessed. 5e has seen the return of Mystra and the Weave but magic is still more accessible with cantrips being unlimited castings per day now, but has regained some of it's former power with the return of Vancian style magic using spell slots.
Outside of FR though magic has whatever rules are dictated by that campaign setting. In such worlds without a Weave it's entirely possible that clerics and wizards interact with entirely different energies and that healing spells are literally fueled by the gods or faith, and that book-learnt magic can't tap into that level of creation energies, which is why wizards are limited to "healing" magic that comes at a cost to another's life force since it's just transferring existing creation energy and not creating it new.
From a meta-game perspective the wizard wasn't given healing magic so it wouldn't step on the toes of clerics and ensure they have a role to play in the party. It's one of the issues some have with druids and bards, as they blur the lines between the established Fighter/Mage/Cleric/Rogue roles and are hard to balance without becoming too powerful or too weak to be in a party. My players though have no wizard, and have a cleric and a druid. The druid mostly fills in the "blaster" role of the classic wizard (evoker) and the cleric does the healing in the party. The bard supports the swashbuckler rogue, and the fighter and barbarian shared damage/tank roles. It should be interesting to see how it changes with the fighter leaving and being replaced by a monk.
Overall there's no reason wizards couldn't have healing spells in their spell list, if a DM so chooses. Just keep in mind that if they gain healing magic that minimalizes the need or desire for a cleric or paladin. This could be useful in a campaign setting with a single abstract god that doesn't directly intervene, distant gods, or even no gods. Then the cleric and paladin wouldn't really fit the theme of the campaign and having a wizard able to heal would allow the gap to be filled and you might have a new tradition of wizard to cover it. Say Wizard (Healer) or Wizard (Herbalist), or similar. |
| #27GrazelMay 26, 2015 17:30:29 |
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| #28ZardnaarMay 26, 2015 18:05:13 | Its a d&dism wizards can' t heal. |
| (Reply to #28)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| #30ZardnaarMay 26, 2015 18:51:15 | Never said they couldnt regain hit points just not outright heal. Becmi did technically let them cast heal-at level 21. |
| (Reply to #28)arnwolf666 |
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| #32lawrencehoyMay 26, 2015 20:56:26 |
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| (Reply to #32)arnwolf666 |
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| #34lawrencehoyMay 26, 2015 21:10:55 |
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| (Reply to #34)arnwolf666 |
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| #36lawrencehoyMay 26, 2015 21:55:52 |
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| #37CutlassMay 26, 2015 22:12:31 | Ahem. Those who are arguing that wizards can't heal need to check the PHB on page 119 where it discusses what a Master Transmuter can do with his transmuter's stone. Granted that this is a different mechanic than just casting a cure whatever wounds spell, but it is most definitely healing being done by a wizard. Homebrew alert: I prefer the following explanation for magic (though it presupposes a dualistic religious system, that could be modified). There is an extent to which the entire universe could be considered as a giant DC electrical.circuit with the positive and negative energy planes being the terminals of the battery that is providing the current flow. The divine energy flowing through the universe makes life possible. Those familiar with such things know that a flowing electrical current creates a magnetic field. Similarly, flowing divine energy creates an arcane field. Clerics get their power by directly tapping into their gods which are directly tapped into one of the terminals. Wizards study how to manipulate the arcane field. Druids use techniques that permit them to tap into the "wires" that the divine energy is flowing through. Under this view wizards don't normally heal simply because it's harder to do that by manipulating the arcane field than it is to do so by applying positive divine energy. |
| #38SaeviomagyMay 26, 2015 22:39:10 | Non healing wizards has become a sacred cow. That said, there's plenty of ways around it (plane shift can work wonders with the correct destination, for instance), along with the aforementioned transmutation specialization. |
| #39lawrencehoyMay 26, 2015 22:47:05 | I think it's been established that arcane casters can heal; just in different ways than divine casters. |
| #40ZardnaarMay 26, 2015 23:22:40 | They are not very good at it in most cases. Even in BECMI you had to be level 21 and use a 9th level spell slot to do what a cleric could do at level 12. Ad&d you could cast a wish spell and maybe kill yourself or use a 4th level spell slot to gain a whopping 1d12 hit points via polymorph. |
| (Reply to #21)rampant |
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| #42mrpopstarMay 27, 2015 5:13:02 |
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| #43FFSAAMay 27, 2015 5:52:25 |
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| (Reply to #42)Tempest_Stormwind |
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| #45Mommy_was_an_OrcMay 27, 2015 8:49:40 |
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| #46mrpopstarMay 27, 2015 11:05:39 |
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| (Reply to #42)Ashrym |
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| #48ZardnaarMay 27, 2015 11:24:27 |
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| (Reply to #48)Ashrym |
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| #50ZardnaarMay 27, 2015 13:56:59 | Wish could also kill you though so it is a crappy source of healing. Only really useful if you are dead anyway. |
| (Reply to #50)Ashrym |
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| #52Sword_of_SpiritMay 27, 2015 14:30:58 |
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| #53Tempest_StormwindMay 27, 2015 15:14:23 |
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| #54ArtifactMay 27, 2015 15:49:18 | The Gift of Magic
In boldest terms, magic is the power to manipulate the very fabric of creation itself. An intrinsic part of the universe, designed and shaped by the gods themselves, magic may be used as a tool for good and the betterment of the world—or it can be brandished as a weapon capable of laying whole nations low. And while many view a force of such extraordinary magnitude as too potent a power to be wielded by merely mortal hands, it is mortals to whom magic is ultimately bound. Magical power is refined and explored over generations by those with the talent, the courage, and the fortitude to wield it.
Magic deals with forces so potent that it took the guiding hands of the gods to instruct mortals in its proper use, and the Art is the lasting legacy of this divine instruction. The gods bestowed upon the world the methods of tapping, manipulating, and, most importantly, harnessing raw arcane energy, using formulas and exacting rituals designed to keep the manifestation of arcane power out of rash and careless hands. It is this gift of magic that has become the dominion of spellcasters throughout the world.
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I use this is an alternative to the Weave of Magic sidebar on page 205 of the 5e PHB. Lifted from Towers of High Sorcery, a d20 sourcebook for Dragonlance. It could use prolly some clarification on 'divine' and 'arcane' (maybe) but at least it removes references to the Weave. |
| #55GwaithadorMay 27, 2015 16:58:06 | It's in the Adventurer's Guild Contract. "Ye, non multiclassing wizards may not access healing spells, less the cleric player whine and pout in his corner, we won'teth, haveth." |
| (Reply to #53)Ashrym |
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| #57lawrencehoyMay 27, 2015 22:33:43 |
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| #58MecheonMay 28, 2015 3:46:07 | The true answer to this is because, of course, pulling magic from whereever it comes from originally (The Weave for FR) is an inherintly destructive act
And doing it too much results in Defiling
So basically, Dark Sun. |
| (Reply to #54)arnwolf666 |
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| #60SirAntoineMay 28, 2015 8:17:51 |
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| #61Tempest_StormwindMay 28, 2015 10:10:41 |
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| #62masterfat78May 28, 2015 10:16:23 | I would love to see a white mage subclass. |
| (Reply to #62)arnwolf666 |
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| (Reply to #61)Ashrym |
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| #65Tempest_StormwindMay 28, 2015 10:47:41 | So you are saying there are draconians (pg 34),Gatekeeper druids (pg 69) , and the Scarlet Brotherhood (pg 81) all exist in Faerun, despite being defined in sidebars specific to other worlds? And that in every world, gnomes are rarely malicious, (pg 37) even when the world overrides that, such as Zilargo's Trust? Because those are consequences of assuming setting-specific sidebars aren't settin-specific. |
| #66ArtifactMay 28, 2015 10:59:34 | I think an interesting take on a 'white mage' would be for them to have access to healing magic (which implies *goodness*). These white wizards are more accurately, defiling (like Dark Sun wizards), which would be evil, or at least 'not good'. This might even make a nice reveal later in the campaign.
So they can heal but not in the same way clerics do.
I'll have to think some more on how exactly I'd write it up.
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| #67mrpopstarMay 28, 2015 15:28:20 |
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| #68Sword_of_SpiritMay 28, 2015 18:20:26 |
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| (Reply to #65)Ashrym |
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| (Reply to #67)Ashrym |
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| #71lawrencehoyMay 28, 2015 23:44:36 |
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| #72MechaPilotMay 29, 2015 0:13:05 |
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| #73UchawiMay 29, 2015 4:12:22 | Well at least you can always grant an arcane casters the appropriate spells if you wanted to allow healing. The same can not be stated for martial characters since the balked at the idea of maneuvers. |
| #74ZardnaarMay 29, 2015 4:48:34 | In 2E you could havewizards casting healing spells and clerics casting wizard spells or a design your own class doing both. It has never really been a hard and fast rule just the arcane healers are not very good at it (eg BECMI wizards casting heal at level 21 vs 12 for a cleric). Even in 5E bards lack things like prayer of healing, aura of vitality etc.
The easiest explaination is because classes/roles. |
| #75draegnMay 29, 2015 5:57:25 |
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| (Reply to #75)arnwolf666 |
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| #77ZardnaarMay 29, 2015 15:51:31 | Evil clerics could heal in 2E. Is that a 1E thing or are you talking about spontaneous chaneling from 3E? |
| #78OrethalionMay 29, 2015 18:36:15 |
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| #79ZardnaarMay 29, 2015 18:41:00 | 2E books covered how the classes accessed the weave. Spellcasters used konwledge to tap into the weave directly why deities acted as conduits for divine casters.
Up until 4E FR ahd rules on things like raise dead and how you accessed the weae as well withthings like the shadow weave and dead and wild magic zones being a thing. |
| #80mrpopstarMay 29, 2015 19:17:33 |
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| (Reply to #77)arnwolf666 |
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| #82OrethalionMay 29, 2015 21:12:23 |
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| (Reply to #82)arnwolf666 |
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| (Reply to #80)Ashrym |
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| #85Tony_VargasJun 06, 2015 21:39:08 |
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| (Reply to #33)DoctorBadWolf |
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| (Reply to #86)Marandahir |
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| (Reply to #87)arnwolf666 |
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| (Reply to #88)DoctorBadWolf |
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| #90ZardnaarJun 08, 2015 11:39:27 | Mystara has immortals not gods and Darksun doesn't have them either. |
| (Reply to #89)arnwolf666 |
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| (Reply to #91)DoctorBadWolf |
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| (Reply to #92)arnwolf666 |
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| (Reply to #93)DoctorBadWolf |
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| (Reply to #94)arnwolf666 |
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| (Reply to #95)DoctorBadWolf |
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