| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
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| #1ThomsonJul 21, 2014 15:49:59 | We where just trying the starter set adventure. While I am a huge fan of the base rules, I think they completely missed the mark with monster design.
A lowly goblin has an AC of 15. We where 7 adventurers and one DM. The DM put us vs 8 goblins.
One of the party members was quite disappointed, because well... she never hit.
The problem with an AC of 15 for a monster which should be rather pathetic, is that the chance that you do nothing during an encounter when you have a +4 to hit is rather huge.
I think the battle lasted 4 rounds, she spent one healing and the other three rounds where basically misses. If we look at the statistics, we see that the chance that you do nothing during an encounter is about 12.5% if you attack three times. In a group of seven players, there is a chance of 61% that one player takes the shaft (i.e. it will happen more often than not)
This is bad for introducing a game. I would rather have more and weaker monsters, where everybody has a chance of doing something, than few stronger monsters.
I would strongly suggest removing the shields from the goblins and adding one or two more.
From just skimming through the monster list it seems to me that more monsters have this problem.
I know that it is theoretically possible to get advantage to boost your chances, but this is difficult if you are fighting your first encounter in the game.
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| #2AhglockJul 21, 2014 20:27:27 | I think goblins are supposed to be somewhat challenging even one on one at low levels. So a non-optomized player have a 50/50 chnace seems fine to me. You only need a 14 stat to get to +4. |
| #3ORC_LolthJul 21, 2014 20:50:16 |
I have removed content from this thread because Inappropriate Content is a violation of the Code of Conduct. |
| #4LeugrenJul 21, 2014 20:51:03 | I've watched several livestreams of the Starter Set adventure, and what I'm noticing is that all of the DM's forget to downgrade a gobln's AC to 13 on rounds in which the goblin has just fired an arrow. On such rounds, the goblin shouldn't be getting a shield bonus, since it takes an action to equip a shield. And since it requires an action for a goblin to equip his shield, there should always be a wasted round whenever the goblin switches from ranged combat to melee combat; during this round, the goblin must expend his action to equip his shield, or his AC will stay at 13. This small bit of rules lawyering might make a bit of a difference at least, though I can't imagine it will make you popular with your DM! |
| (Reply to #4)knightserpent |
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| #6FellstrikeJul 21, 2014 21:00:37 |
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| #7AhglockJul 21, 2014 21:03:43 |
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| #8hunterian7Jul 21, 2014 21:06:17 |
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| #9DM_HEEGZJul 21, 2014 21:23:07 | For goblins, the DM can have some of the goblins be archers and use their shortbow, this means they don't have a shield equpped and have an AC of 13. Goblins with their scimitar and shield equipped would still have an AC of 15 though. Note that goblins do the same damage whether they are using a bow or melee weapon. The same goes for another goblinoid, the hobgoblin. It has an AC of 18 with a shield, but if it uses it's longbow the AC drops to 16. The final goblinoid, bugbears, use a morningstar and shield. Their ranged attack option is a javelin, and it is one handed, so they do not drop in AC when switching to ranged attacks. |
| #10LeugrenJul 21, 2014 21:28:31 |
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| #11RastapopoulosJul 21, 2014 21:45:23 |
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| #12HebitsuikazaJul 21, 2014 22:00:41 | Okay, okay.
Here is what they can fight.
Average Hapless Civilian HP: 4 Saves: +0 to everything
Armed with one of the random following weapons A) Unarmed - 1d2 (1) damage B) Improvisational 1-Handed weapon - -1 to hit, 1d4 (2) damage D) Improvisational Ranged Weapon - 30' range, -2 to hit, 1d4 (2) damage
Every time one of them dies, all other average hapless citizens in the area must pass a Wisdom save DC 15 or become Frightened of the adventurers.
You can just have the party endlessly slaughter bigger and bigger crowds of them. Eventually they might go up against Town Watchmen (Level 1 Fighters equipped with leather armor and clubs, CR 1/2) and Town Guard (Level 2 Fighters equipped with chainmail, shields and short swords, CR1). But don't introduce such hardcore enemies too soon. Don't want them appearing before level 4. After all, you wouldn't want the adventurers to be challenged or to every fail to miss an attack or ever fail to kill an opponent with each attack. |
| #13LFKJul 21, 2014 23:01:00 | It's your fault.
The math team fixed it.
You're playing wrong.
Your DM will fix it.
Wait for the final version.
Why don't you just ask for auto-success on everything ever and instantly level up to 20?
Why wouldn't Goblins use shields? |
| #14CCSJul 21, 2014 23:01:17 | So a 50/50 chance to hit.... sorry, not seeing a problem. And rolling too low? Even 3+ consecutive times? Happens to everyone who plays these games. So tell your friend "welcome to D&D". |
| (Reply to #14)Thomson |
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| (Reply to #4)Thomson |
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| (Reply to #13)Thomson |
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| #18LFKJul 21, 2014 23:58:45 |
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| #19MonsterEnvyJul 21, 2014 23:59:45 |
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| #20MonsterEnvyJul 22, 2014 0:00:50 |
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| #21RamzourJul 22, 2014 0:33:23 |
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| #22LFKJul 22, 2014 0:55:11 |
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| #23RamzourJul 22, 2014 1:06:47 |
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| (Reply to #19)Thomson |
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| #25RamzourJul 22, 2014 1:23:44 |
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| #26ThomsonJul 22, 2014 1:29:24 |
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| #27RamzourJul 22, 2014 1:29:50 |
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| #28RamzourJul 22, 2014 1:45:38 |
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| #29HebitsuikazaJul 22, 2014 1:48:52 | Moreover, who assigned the least offensive-oriented characters to a person whose entire concept of "impact" in the game directly relates to how much damage they do on attack rolls?
Why not simply tell her to try again with a different character? |
| #30Caliburn101.Jul 22, 2014 1:59:39 |
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| #31NoonJul 22, 2014 2:34:50 |
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| (Reply to #24)DLfan |
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| #33Mephi1234Jul 22, 2014 4:20:29 | Perhaps a solution, should your friend ever try the game again, would be to suggest a wizard or other casters. I'm willing to bet that an encounter with eight goblins would have been very different for your friend if she'd had the power to cast Magic Missile and kill three goblins first turn. Autohit plus 1d4+1 damage each when they have, what, 3 hp each? 75% chance they die.
The Basic set didn't have dragonborn, but their dragonbreath is a save-for-half ability; that also would have decimated the goblins.
A little bit of finessing could have also helped - arrange things so she got advantage on a roll. A goblin rolls badly, and leaves itself open. She gets to roll twice.
A 50 percent chance of missing is about average for not just this game, but others. That's the problem with dice - sometimes, they just fail us. A solution to counter this is to Character Optimize. For instance, its simplicity within itself to start with a +3 attribute when using a point build, and, when coupled with the +2 proficency bonus, she should have been rolling +5 to hit. If you rolled for stats, and she just naturally ended up low? Perhaps an attribute bump, or using stat buy for a bit of a boost?
Thomson, you're right that your friend didn't get a good impression of the game. Its sad, frustrating, and annoying when things like that happen. I had a run, a space over six weeks, where the characters constantly died due to rolling 1s at inoppertune moments. Three characters dead. It was discouraging. And, yeah, I could blame the DM, the game, lots of things - Save or Die spells kind of suck when you normally can resist them. But the fact of the matter? It was just shitty luck. No one else had the problem. They weren't better than my character in any noticable way - if anything, one of the PCs (paladin) had far superior saves and hp than the rest of the group. It didn't matter. Luck hated me those two months.
It was a shitty time for luck to betray her, but its not the system's fault. Not when there's evidence of the starter adventures working great for many others. The question is... what are you doing to do going forwards? Are you going to be swapping games to keep her? Convince her for another go? Maybe suggest that you revisit things when the PHB comes out - it might be that Basic isn't for her, while the full game might have things she finds more attractive?
Identify what would make her happy, I guess. |
| #34ShadeRavenJul 22, 2014 6:15:48 | I think it's perfectly within her right to dislike this edition if she wants. Obviously, those of us who enjoy it are more than welcoming towards the new player, but a one-battle sample size winner-take-all attitude is going to be a tough sell if that's what to be expected.
I've literally played every edition of D&D once it became known as D&D. 50% chance of hitting is actually pretty generous. If she was playing a pre-made, the odds are actually better than 50/50 overall. The archer has a strong 65% chance of doing 1d8+3 damage. The Cleric measures in at 50% with weapon or 50% with Sacred Flame (which gets to ignore cover). The Defense Style Fighter comes in at 55% along with the Rogue (who's likely to be able to find a foe that allows Sneak Attack relatively easy). Finally, the Mage has many lethal options available, but even going Cantrip (Ray) is 55%.
A goblin in AD&D had a AC of 6, The attack table for a Fighter type back then at level 1 was 14 roll needed vs AC 6. Maybe you get a +1 from stats on that, but it's pretty unlikely (17 STR required), so back then, you had typically a 35% chance of hitting.
Fast forwards to 3E+, and the 14 STR Fighter at first level has a +3 attack. Toss in Focus for argument's sake, and it's +4. Goblins have a 15 AC... that leaves us with a 50% chance of hitting, too.
Again, it's important to note that if she was of a mind to not like 5th Edition, it's well within her right.
Beyond that, if the DM realizes that she was a very early-success oriented player, they should have just made the goblins AC 10, given them like 3 HPs, and let her enjoy the slaughter. Honestly, removing Shields would only drop their AC to 13. If she was missing every time at 15, there's much more likely a chance that she continues to miss at AC 13 than there is that she suddenly batters them mercilessly. Besides, there's nothing wrong with giving her goblins on a platter if that's what is going to allow her to enjoy the game. Having fun is the point, after all.
All-in-all, it's not fair to blame 5E for her lack of success because, if anything, she probably stood a better chance at laying waste to the green-skinned creatures in this edition that she would have had in editions past. |
| #35GilbertMDHJul 22, 2014 6:41:17 | My friend played the archer fighter and consistantly rolled high (18 to 20) for initiative and low for attacks (1 to 3). Despite havingh the highest to-hit (+7) he only managed one or two hits in the entire opening section with the goblins. He had a blast. He loved coming up with reasons for his fast reactions and poor aim. He also contributed in other ways, thinking of creative solutions to the various challenges in the cave. He also tweaked the backstory of the folk hero and had a good time playing it up during the sessions. |
| #36iserithJul 22, 2014 6:54:56 | I intend to redesign this encounter and post it here, so keep an eye out for it. It will include a map with a grid.
I think it can be greatly improved by having the goblins follow their motivation of stealing the wagon rather than killing PCs. |
| #37KarnosJul 22, 2014 7:07:04 | One thing that is not clearly described is the usage of shields & bows in the encounter. Given the layout of the ambush, it's very likely that the goblins will be using bows, and actually have AC reduced to 13 because they can't wear shields simultaneously. It's just not made very clear in the descriptions of the encounter, or in the stat block for goblins.
With AC reduced to 13 due to lack of a shield, is about 65% chance for most characters to hit a goblin, and very unlikely that a given player will not hit at all in the whole encounter, though it is certainly possible. |
| #38ThomsonJul 22, 2014 7:41:34 | I am sorry, but basically I am unable to make my point, since basically all responses don't have to do anything at all with what I wanted to say. (Except for the helpful person that explained that the goblins where actually cheating)
I am trying again:
Bottom line: I don't want to say this encounter is too difficult, or that all things should be different. I just want to say that it is a bad choice for the first encounter in a module that should get new player's into the game. And it is not about table issues, or people having attitudes. All tables have issues, and all people have attitudes. Good game design takes this into account, since a good game should be written for... *gasp* people.
From a statistical perspective, it is the same to have monsters you hit 50% of the time and kill them 75% of the time if you hit, or monsters you hit 75% of the time and kill them 50% of the time if you hit.
And no, not hitting anything in the first encounter was not the whole story. Add to this that she failed at every skill roll (the ones her character was proficient in and had good stats) and failed every save (even if she rolled a 13)
Aiming for a 50% chance to accomplish something is bad game design, except if you want people to loose. That is why a lot of casino games aim at this chance. It sounds fair, but in the end, the person with the bigger bank account and making the most rolls (i.e. the DM) win in such games. And again, it is not about the entire design philosophy, but the freaking first encounter in the game, which should be enjoyed by everybody. |
| #39ShadeRavenJul 22, 2014 8:17:30 | To be fair, the Goblin Ambush was the 3rd "Encounter" in the campaign for the two groups that have been playing the Lost Mines as their introduction to 5th Edition. So for me, the group was already invested and active with their characters before this first life-threatening engagement. Even during that particular encounter, there was a lot of RP opportunity available - which the group did take advantage of.
It should also be noted that half the forces laying in ambush were given instruction to charge into melee, so not all of them will be using bows - keep that in mind.
Furthermore, the Adventure Module clearly states that the Goblins are NOT intending to kill the party. Even if the players were to lose that battle, they should only be left unconscious and the goblins will only loot them and raid the wagons. It's a bit wordy, because of the "tutorial" approach to the writing, but if you read through the entire encounter that instruction is clear.
Thomson: I would suggest a more story-oriented approach to early sessions for your group as the "swinginess" of the dice will lead to some extremes occasionally that will leave some of your players very dissatisfied. Again, even without a shield, the cleric would only have a 60% chance to hit meaning it's far from impossible for that player to go three rounds in a row without having a positive result. Minimize the importance of the dice, especially the combat ones, as you describe their actions more theatrically. Let the player character act upon the scenario verbally. Are they trying to remove the horses? Investigate the scene? Etc.Instead of having the ambushing humanoids rolling dice and charging into the fray, describe their sudden appearance and actions instead of rolling them. "----- "Four goblins suddenly emerge from the underbrush with terrible intent clearly reflected in their eyes. Two approach menacingly, sharp blades drawn, while the remaining two draw forth bows and fire warning shots in your general direction. One of them then speaks in guttural, bare recognizable common."
"Drop yer weapons and leave the wagons. They be ours now."
From there, to ensure a better result and more positive impression of the encounter and D&D in general, grant all the players ADVANTAGE if they decide to fight back, describing the goblins as startled that anyone would actually defy them and not surrender their goods and flee.
This should give your players plenty of opportunities to make a good early impression.
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| #40ThomsonJul 22, 2014 8:34:44 |
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| #41SturmunddrangJul 22, 2014 8:34:40 |
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| #42The_JesterJul 22, 2014 8:52:11 |
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| (Reply to #42)Thomson |
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| #44HebitsuikazaJul 22, 2014 10:00:13 |
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| (Reply to #44)Thomson |
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| #46Mephi1234Jul 22, 2014 10:15:23 |
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| #47Thalion94518Jul 22, 2014 10:16:01 | Are we back to killing rats in the cellar again? |
| #48MrHotterJul 22, 2014 10:25:09 | If we gave goblins less AC then we would have to give them more damage or other abilities to make them tougher. Goblins are quick and crafty but don't pack a lot of punch. Different monsters have different strengths and weaknesses, and being easy to hit is not what goblins are known for.
I think the issue is from the 'I swing/you miss/next round' kind of gaming that we get sometimes. If the DM would play up the misses and explain the situation rather than just rolling dice, then the misses would be less noticeable.
If the PC has missed the same goblin 3 times in a row then I think it would be less frustrating for the player if it went something like: Player: ack, a 13. I miss again. DM: The goblin once again leaps out of the way. Now he's laughing at you and even though you can't understand what he is saying, he seems to be mocking your skills with a sword. The fact that he is thumbing his nose at you is making this pretty clear. Player: I know I'm a paladin, but when I take this guy down I'm wearing his ears as a necklaces. |
| (Reply to #46)Thomson |
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| #50HebitsuikazaJul 22, 2014 10:40:50 |
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| #51autolycusJul 22, 2014 10:43:22 | The math is wrong. The presuppositions are wrong.
Someone had bad luck during a session and decided to take their toys and go home.
The issue isn't the game or the module. It's the player. |
| (Reply to #50)Thomson |
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| #53ThomsonJul 22, 2014 10:54:24 |
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| #54hunterian7Jul 22, 2014 11:11:24 |
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| #55GnarlJul 22, 2014 11:09:36 | @Thomson:
7 players is not the optimal gaming condition. Even for veteran players, it's not fun waiting 5 minutes before you can make your next attack. So when you have a 50% chance to hit, I can imagine it can get very frustrating. Did you try smaller groups (4-5 players) and advise your friend to use two weapons to double her chances of hitting each round? Missing is not as bad when your next turn comes up fairly quickly. |
| #56SturmunddrangJul 22, 2014 11:13:32 |
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| #57DemoMonkeyJul 22, 2014 11:16:05 | "What I just wanted was a reason why the first encounter of the game is designed in a way that there is a high probability (close to 50%) of one player in a five man party contributing nothing to the encounter."
To teach both the players, and the DM, that not everyone is in the spotlight all the time and you just have to be a good sport and roll with it until your turn comes up.
That is a HUGELY important lesson to learn. Arguably far more important than how Hit Points work or what a "round" is. |
| #58ParaxisJul 22, 2014 11:31:53 | The encounter is built that way because the designers don't give a damn about balance or math. Low CR monsters do high damage or have high AC because they just don't care. |
| (Reply to #57)Thomson |
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| #60kanageddaamenJul 22, 2014 12:17:42 | I feel the first encounter is fine. The archer goblins are also in the woods, so should have 15 AC for ranged attacks from cover anyway. This is negated by sacred flame or melee attacks (I would rule) so the archer goblins should have been AC 13.
Your math aslo does't factor in other things, like advantage granted by a guiding bolt, auto hit attacks like Magic Missile, more skilled characters like archer fighters, and players dual weilding weapons, getting multiple hits per round. She was the cleric, clearly, and they are competant, but not powerhouse melee fighters. They also have fairly amazing spells at level 1 (bless is a beast) Sword fighter: 9.1% Wizard attack cantrip 9.1% |
| #61Mephi1234Jul 22, 2014 12:09:07 |
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| #62Mephi1234Jul 22, 2014 12:14:26 |
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| #63RokElfslayerJul 22, 2014 12:13:35 | I too forgot about the goblins loosing that shield bonus when they were using their shortbows instead of the scimitar and shield. Oops!! Well, the two gobin archers were not that effective anyway but those melee goblins sure were strong. They took down the party's cleric. LOL
Now, I guess a DM feeling sorry for the players' party might have them all go in without shields, but I think if the new listing has the goblins using shields then they should use shields, except for the odd goblin that could not afford to own one or who dropped it to use a bow. I rarely feel sorry for my parties. And since the 5th/Next rules are still pretty new, I had not scanned them a whole lot to think about the loss of ac points for dropping the shield.
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| #64RokElfslayerJul 22, 2014 12:15:40 |
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| #65LFKJul 22, 2014 12:18:39 |
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| (Reply to #11)RokElfslayer |
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| #67LeugrenJul 22, 2014 12:31:44 |
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| #68RokElfslayerJul 22, 2014 12:34:18 |
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| #69RokElfslayerJul 22, 2014 12:38:01 |
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| #70kanageddaamenJul 22, 2014 12:38:09 |
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| #71Brock_LandersJul 22, 2014 12:56:44 |
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| #72The_JesterJul 22, 2014 12:58:23 |
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| (Reply to #2)Cennedi |
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| (Reply to #71)Cennedi |
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| #75LawolfJul 22, 2014 13:14:32 |
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| #76ParaxisJul 22, 2014 13:37:01 |
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| #77Brock_LandersJul 22, 2014 13:38:54 |
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| #78RamzourJul 22, 2014 13:42:17 |
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| (Reply to #76)Cennedi |
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| #80ParaxisJul 22, 2014 13:45:52 |
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| #81LFKJul 22, 2014 13:50:20 |
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| #82Brock_LandersJul 22, 2014 13:53:59 |
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| #83RamzourJul 22, 2014 13:55:11 |
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| #84Brock_LandersJul 22, 2014 13:55:12 |
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| (Reply to #80)Cennedi |
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| (Reply to #83)Cennedi |
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| #87RamzourJul 22, 2014 14:29:45 |
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| #88The_JesterJul 22, 2014 14:43:39 |
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| (Reply to #75)kanageddaamen |
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| #90The_JesterJul 22, 2014 14:53:16 |
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| #91RhennyJul 22, 2014 15:13:39 |
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| #92hunterian7Jul 22, 2014 15:51:29 |
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| #93Azzy1974Jul 22, 2014 16:22:43 |
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| #94LawolfJul 22, 2014 15:55:02 |
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| (Reply to #92)Cennedi |
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| (Reply to #93)Cennedi |
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| #97DLfanJul 22, 2014 16:01:48 |
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| (Reply to #94)zgrose |
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| #99Mephi1234Jul 22, 2014 16:42:42 |
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| (Reply to #99)Cennedi |
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| #101Mephi1234Jul 22, 2014 16:59:19 |
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| (Reply to #61)Thomson |
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| (Reply to #97)Thomson |
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| (Reply to #93)Thomson |
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| (Reply to #101)Cennedi |
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| #106grendel111111Jul 22, 2014 18:33:24 | You could just give the goblins max HP. That way the combat will drag on so there are more chances for people to hit. If combat drags out for 6 rounds then the chances of anyone missing every round will go down. |
| (Reply to #104)Azzy1974 |
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| (Reply to #106)Azzy1974 |
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| (Reply to #97)The_Jester |
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| #110LawolfJul 22, 2014 19:33:03 |
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| #111SturmunddrangJul 22, 2014 19:49:31 |
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| #112NoonJul 22, 2014 20:19:34 |
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| (Reply to #85)CCS |
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| #114hunterian7Jul 22, 2014 20:54:18 |
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| (Reply to #104)CCS |
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| (Reply to #114)Cennedi |
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| #117hunterian7Jul 22, 2014 22:05:18 |
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| (Reply to #117)Cennedi |
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| #119hunterian7Jul 22, 2014 22:42:04 |
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| #120ORC_LocheJul 22, 2014 22:51:35 | Let's ease off on the edition warring.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/28870729/Edition_wars_and_how_we_can_prevent_them |
| (Reply to #119)Cennedi |
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| (Reply to #120)Cennedi |
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| #123hunterian7Jul 22, 2014 23:00:53 |
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| (Reply to #123)Cennedi |
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| #125hunterian7Jul 22, 2014 23:04:02 |
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| (Reply to #125)Cennedi |
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| #127hunterian7Jul 22, 2014 23:06:29 |
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| #128hunterian7Jul 22, 2014 23:09:17 |
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| (Reply to #127)Cennedi |
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| (Reply to #128)Cennedi |
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| #131hunterian7Jul 22, 2014 23:13:58 |
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| #132hunterian7Jul 22, 2014 23:15:23 |
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| (Reply to #131)Cennedi |
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| (Reply to #132)Cennedi |
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| #135JohnLynchJul 23, 2014 2:35:39 |
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| #136BoldItalicJul 23, 2014 3:52:55 | There's been a lot of number-crunching and mechanics in this thread, but no-one has mentioned role-playing.
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| #137AlynnJul 23, 2014 4:45:46 | I keep reading the word "cheat" the goblins didn't cheat.
Every monster stat block tells you what they are getting their AC from. You as the DM are supposed to have read the rules and read (not glanced at) the stat blocks and realized that you can't wield a 2 handed weapon and a shield. If you give your goblin plate does he still have 15 AC? No you change it based on the change of circumstance. |
| (Reply to #110)kanageddaamen |
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| #139ChrisCarlsonJul 23, 2014 6:37:04 | When I last ran it (and will be starting a new group next week, so running it again), I had--per the write-up's suggestion--two shooting bows and two charge out with shield and scimitar. I kept them all at AC 15. The two with bows fired from the treeline and thus benefitted from +2 AC for cover.
When one of the fighters rushed the archers in the bushes, engaging them, I made sure they had an AC of 13 due to the loss of cover (and no shield). |
| #140kanageddaamenJul 23, 2014 7:01:47 |
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| #141ChrisCarlsonJul 23, 2014 7:27:21 | Of course. But it doesn't target AC anyway. It's a Dex save. |
| #142kanageddaamenJul 23, 2014 7:49:33 |
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| #143BantamJul 23, 2014 8:04:48 |
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| (Reply to #139)Cennedi |
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| #145iserithJul 23, 2014 11:33:42 | I've reworked Goblin Arrows as promised upthread. This version might be a little more interesting. |
| #146ChrisCarlsonJul 23, 2014 11:43:40 |
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| #147iserithJul 23, 2014 11:48:22 |
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| #148dmgorgonJul 23, 2014 12:56:39 | 50% miss chance sounds about right for a bunch of novice adventurers. |
| (Reply to #147)Cennedi |
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| (Reply to #147)Sling617 |
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| #151Brock_LandersJul 23, 2014 14:11:57 |
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| #152iserithJul 23, 2014 14:13:39 |
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| #153Brock_LandersJul 23, 2014 14:19:35 |
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| #154awaken_D_M_golemJul 23, 2014 14:29:49 | After running around Archeron without Pants or Shields for like millenias , even Maglubiyet said: "Look guys , you've gotta wear either Pants xOR Shields." The first few Goblin Generals looked at each other funny , and immediately picked up a Shield. Shortly afterwards, Orcs started joking about why do goblins have to wear shields. Have you ever looked under a Goblin's Shield ? EWWWW !!
Orcs think this is hilarious.
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| (Reply to #152)ShadeRaven |
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| (Reply to #152)Cennedi |
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| #157Brock_LandersJul 23, 2014 14:58:23 |
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| (Reply to #157)Cennedi |
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| #159NoonJul 23, 2014 21:21:59 | So often said by those who only DM and never play. |
| #160ivstinJul 23, 2014 21:37:09 | So, your player with a +4 to hit... rolled less than an 11 each time for 3 rounds? Sounds like she needs to fire her dice.
As for the AC being too high - it's only high if they're using a shield, which is a defensive mechanic, and logical. If you're going into battle and don't want to die, you defend yourself. Keep in mind, monsters might not see players as "bags of hit points waiting to be bashed to pieces." They see combat as "if this person that I am assaulting from the bushes can get to me and kill me... I'm dead."
Just like me when I go hog hunting. "I need something between me and this hog... oh look a tree. Ok. here we -- OH GOD CLIMB!"
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| #161DastionJul 23, 2014 23:14:42 | A few things comments I have from reading this:
1) You played with far too many players than the adventure was designed for. The base adventure calls for 4-5 players and has you fighting 4 goblins no matter what. So either way you're supposed to either have the same amount of players as goblins or have a 1 player advantage. Instead, your party had more goblins than players. So this encounter was already poorly balanced.
2) There are very few things in this adventure that, if proficient, a 13 will fail on - especially saving throw wise. (8+3+2 = 13 max DC for most spell effects).
3) You weren't DMing, I think it's clear that your DM 'scaled things up' a bit to account for the excessive numbe of players you had. I think it's very clear that you had a different experience than other players did, and a good part of it is probably your DM's fault for how he altered the game.
4) I admit that you lost a lot of your credence on post #16 where you went off on the adventure for not including the rules. The rules are included in the starter set - so I'm really not sure what you're expecting here?
Also, it doesn't necessarily take the goblins an action to equip a shield. You can interact with one object free on your turn. Here is how the encounter worked for my party:
-Two goblins charged the party (per the guidelines), they had Scimitars and Shields out (AC15). Two more stayed in the bushes using their bows, they had cover and so had a +2AC. -When one of the ranged goblins switched to his scimitar (being within 5 feet of an enemy gives you disadvantage on ranged attack rolls) he used his free interaction to draw his scimitar (dropping his bow in the process) and attacked (13AC due to lack of a shield), on his next turn he drew his shield with his free interaction.
Funnily enough, the Cleric in the party was extremely effective against the Archers because she noticed that her Sacred Flame spell ignores cover. So she was able to attack them from range without them getting their cover bonus to their dexterity saving throws. Furthermore, she used the Hinder action against the melee Goblins to help protect her allies.
5E is pretty awesome if you take the time to read the rules and learn what you can do. I can't emphasize enough that you should read the Actions section closely. A fighter using Shove to knock an enemy prone, or grappling someone and moving them into position for the Rogue, granting a melee attack advantage via the Help action, or inflicting disadvantage via the HInder action are potentially huge benefits.
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| #162RokElfslayerJul 24, 2014 15:37:17 |
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| #163SirZacJul 24, 2014 16:24:44 | Maybe you should play with the recommended amount of players before you comment on balancing. |
| #164NoonJul 24, 2014 18:13:40 | To be fair, the armour doning rules have putting on a shield as one action, IIRC.
But yeah, you are going to have combats where you never hit - that'll just come up.
And it can come up on the very first combat just as much as any other combat.
Really she's right - even if she'd hit, eventually she'd get in a combat and only miss - and if that's not for her, then D&D is not for her. |