Why is the Champion weak? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Xeviat-DM Sep 04, 2014 2:54:45	Fighter vs. Fighter I keep getting yelled at for comparing one class to another. How about I compare one build of one class to another build of the same class? I'm going to start simple; the Fighter. Here's a simple level 3 fighter. We're comparing damage, because everything else is the same (the Eldritch Knight might not be using a shield, but we'll ignore that and assume they drop their sword for spell casting or something), so don't point out that the Battle Master and the Eldritch Knight can use their expertise/spell slots for defense. Level 3, Str 16, Longsword, Duelist (+5 to hit, 1d8+5 damage, vs. 16 AC ~ 4.975 average) Champion Improved Crit; +0.225 damage per attack (crits deal +4.5 damage on average) Battle Master Combat Superiority: +4.5 damage x4 per short rest (you don't have to expend your dice until you've scored a hit, so thus they are never waisted). Eldritch Knight Spellcasting: +X damage x2 per long rest burning hands: 3d6 (10.5), save half (x0.75 ~ 7.875); +2.9 vs one, +7.875 vs. additional targets magic missile: 3d4+3 (10.5), no miss; +5.525 vs. one The Battle Master is clearly on top here. In order for the Eldritch Knight to match up, we have to assume that the Battle Master does not get a short rest; over the course of a day (which needs to be at least 8 rounds long since they miss half the time, and need to land an attack to deal their bonus damage), the Battle Master deals +18 damage. If the Eldritch Knight tags two opponents each time with their 2 Burning Hands, they deal +21.55 damage. They can never keep up with Magic Missile. That's doable. One rest, though, and the Battle Master jumps to +36 damage, and the Eldritch Knight needs to hit 3 foes with their burning hands to keep up (dealing +37.3 damage); that's still doable. For the Champion to keep up with the Battle Master with 1 rest, they have to make 80 attacks per short rest. That's a long day. That's 79 rounds, since action surge helps. Now, two weapon fighting could help this. Maybe I'm wrong to use the longsword for comparisons; maybe things skew with the great sword ... Fighter, level 3, Str 16, Greatsword, Great Weapon Fighting (+5 to hit, 2d6*+3 damage, average 11.33; vs. 16 AC ~ 6.08 per attack) Champion Improved Crit: +0.42 per attack Battle Master Combat Superiority: +4.5 damage x4 per short rest (+18) Eldritch Knight Spellcasting: +X damage x2 per long rest burning hands: 3d6 (10.5), save half (x0.75 ~ 7.875); +1.795 vs one, +7.875 vs. additional targets So, the Eldritch Knight still needs to hit 2 targets per Burning Hands if there is no short rest in the day (+19.34 vs. +18), and still needs to hit 3 per to be balanced if there's one short rest (+35.1 vs. +36). There now only needs to be 42 attacks made per short rest for the Champion and Battle Master to be balanced. That's 41 rounds of combat. Since low level fights only last 1 to 4 rounds, that's a lot of fights. How would I fix it? Maybe the Battle Master needs less dice at level 3, and then to grow them faster as they level.
#2 Lady_Auralla Sep 04, 2014 3:10:30	Xeviat-DM wrote:
#3 autolycus Sep 04, 2014 3:18:32	Is the contention here that all fighter variants should do exactly the same damage in battle? DPS certainly isn't a top concern at my table. In my current campaign the Champion is mechanically simpler and appeals to my newest player (new to RPGs). She was overwhelmed by all the fiddly bits of the other two sub-classes. The Battle Master in our party is being played by a gamer who has been playing D&D since the 70s. He's happier with a class w/ more crunchiness. Both are very happy with their fighters. So by the only measure that matters to us they are both perfect sub-classes. There is more to a class than simple DPS.
#4 Lady_Auralla Sep 04, 2014 3:32:41	autolycus wrote:
#5 arderkrag Sep 04, 2014 3:44:56	The champion is much more interesting for me to play, though. So there's that.
#6 autolycus Sep 04, 2014 3:57:06	Lady_Auralla wrote:
#7 Orzel Sep 04, 2014 4:13:27	The Champion is better on longer days if you get advantage a lot. With a 19-20 crit range, you crit almost 20% of the time with avantage. Add in opportunity attacks for more attacks and Champions do well.
#8 Uchawi Sep 04, 2014 4:20:17	The resource management system is not very good for martial characters, and even worse when you throw the champion into the mix. But damage was never a big metric for me when comparing classes. The capabiltiy to learn new things and customize are and in that sense the fighter will never even get close to a caster, not even a warlock. To clarify, I am not talking about the relative power of martial ability versus spells, just a method to learn knew things and become more diverse, i.e. options.
#9 Zardnaar Sep 04, 2014 4:30:49	Level 3 skews the results. At higher levels the champion will be making a lot more attacks and the duel wielder is good for crit fishing. Level 5 you get 3 attacks per round for example. The Battlemaster may also not be allowed for example if one is playing Basic D&D or Basic D&D+ some options from the PHB. Polearm and Greatweapon fighters also get more attacks as well than ye olde basic fighter at level 3. The warlord was probably a semi broken class (or at least one of the power classes) in 4E as well and even the "gimped" fighter version in 5E seems very good.
#10 Jell_Moo Sep 04, 2014 5:04:53	I think that you have to be careful not to look at the stats in a vaccuum. Damage per day is a very tricky metric to look at in regards to expendable resources vs always on abilities. Especially when the primary mechanic of one has an element of RnG attached to it. If a Battlemaster expends all of their Superiority Dice in the first combat of the day, they may still outdamage the Champion overall, but the Champion ends up being a larger contributor over the next few fights. A short rest shores things up, absolutely, but relying on the ability to have one can be quite problematic. I think third level is also a really bad one to pick here. I'm not convinced that this is really the balance sweet spot for most of the classes. I mean, the Paladin can pull off 2d6 + 2d8 + 2d6 + X (Greatsword + Divine Smite + Wrathful Smite + damage mod and rerolls of 1s and 2s). That's a pretty staggering amount of damage for level 3. It is very resource dependant though, but it spikes up the Paladin's damage per day by a considerable amount. I agree that this is a potential cause for concern and that doing the math is pretty important. I just feel that there are certain game play intangibles that skew the results slightly.
#11 Zardnaar Sep 04, 2014 5:09:11	More than a few classes/builds do not come online until later in the levels as well. There are spikes for example at level 4,5,6 and 8 for the various classes and sub classes. Level 3 is probably one of the worst levels to use as well.
#12 FFSAA Sep 04, 2014 6:16:54	autolycus wrote:
#13 autolycus Sep 04, 2014 6:20:23	FFSAA wrote:
#14 FFSAA Sep 04, 2014 6:47:21	autolycus wrote:
#15 autolycus Sep 04, 2014 6:49:33	FFSAA wrote:
#16 Thoughts_My_Aim Sep 04, 2014 7:03:36	Also, if you only have fun when you roll a crit, the Champion is twice as much fun as the Battlemaster. If what you find fun is using limited resources to achieve good results. The Battlemaster is 100% more fun than the Champion. If what you find fun is having a character that works straight out of the box without having to keep track of limited resources, the Champion is 100% more fun than the Battlemaster.
#17 FFSAA Sep 04, 2014 7:16:03	autolycus wrote:
#18 autolycus Sep 04, 2014 7:20:03	Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
#19 Thoughts_My_Aim Sep 04, 2014 7:28:02	Numbers are misleading. You knew, before you chose to play a champion, that the Battlemaster would get Superiority Dice and you wouldn't. Why do you suddenly think that this is an unacceptable advantage now that somebody has expressed it in terms of an average-damage-per-short-rest?
#20 spelley Sep 04, 2014 7:35:17	Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
#21 Thoughts_My_Aim Sep 04, 2014 7:44:16	spelley wrote:
#22 DemoMonkey Sep 04, 2014 7:46:21	Balancing factors: 1) Advantage is a significant boost to a Champions damage. How easily can you get it? 2) Short rests are essential to the BattleMaster. How frequently are situations going to arise when they are NOT available between encounters? 3) Fighting styles and feats that boost damage dice or number of attacks over flat bonuses to hit/damage favour the Champion. Duelist (the style used in the example) is one of the weakest for Champions. GWF or TWF would both be better.
#23 MykeSchultz Sep 04, 2014 7:49:24	I was worried about the champion at first (perhaps I will be again). But I'm glad there was a rebuttal with some numbers and context. Plus, the champion's crit gets better. Plus, you get to pick another fighting style down the line. I'm not a numbers guy, nor a conceptual math guy, but I feel better now.
#24 Timborama Sep 04, 2014 8:17:44	Lady_Auralla wrote:
#25 Timborama Sep 04, 2014 8:24:53	autolycus wrote:
#26 eleran Sep 04, 2014 8:28:20	to respond to the OP, the Chasmpion is not weak. It is just weaker in some circumstances than the Battlemaster, but that does not make it inferior or bad. It makes it different.
(Reply to #4) grendel111111	Lady_Auralla wrote:
#28 Dracones Sep 04, 2014 8:41:48	Your comparisons are really off on the Champion vs Battle Master. For a Champion go GWM and seek advantage to maximize your crit chances. The crit will give you another attack via GWM, which boosts your damage up quite a bit. By the time you hit your mid teens you should be criting nearly every round when you have advantage. With GWF/GWM the Champion is going to be better damage than the Battle Master unless you have a rogue in the party. If you do then go Battle Master and spend your dice on giving the rogue off turn attacks.
#29 Timborama Sep 04, 2014 9:53:28	Dracones wrote:
#30 FFSAA Sep 04, 2014 10:29:19	Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
#31 Timborama Sep 04, 2014 10:32:14	Also, back on topic, I think, OP you need to choose a better level to do these comparisons. Or perhaps MORE levels to use as comparisons. And using optimized, or psuedo-optimized builds would do. Why only level 3 and not level 20 (and/or levels 5, 10, and 15?)? Why doesn't the Champion have GWF and/or GWM? Unless, of course, you are personally starting at level 3 and want opinions about the here-and-now, not worrying about level 4 or anything. In which case say so and we can narrow our own scopes!
#32 Eric888 Sep 04, 2014 10:36:44	We still have not seen the DMG. Dagger Masters in 4e were only insnane because of the multitude of magic items that made crits more powerful. Hold your opinion on how good doubling your crit chance is until we know how much synergy there is with items.
#33 Dracones Sep 04, 2014 10:45:45	Eric888 wrote:
#34 FFSAA Sep 04, 2014 11:37:23	Dracones wrote:
#35 DemoMonkey Sep 04, 2014 12:23:54	"Not sure the great sword helps champions any more than battlemasters, less I'd think" Increasing the base weapon damage favours the Champion more. They both get the increase, but the Champion ALSO gets it on their 1 in 20 "I get a critical but you don't, nyaah" chance. It's a tiny swing in their favour, but it's still a swing.
#36 Grifford Sep 04, 2014 12:34:04	Since when are sublcasses obligated to produce equal numbers in everyone's pet white room scenarios? "Balance entitlement" people baffle the hell out of me. It's a game, not an account ledger.
#37 ChrisCarlson Sep 04, 2014 12:40:50	Grifford wrote:
#38 Dracones Sep 04, 2014 12:44:19	FFSAA wrote:
#39 DemoMonkey Sep 04, 2014 12:47:15	"As long as people are ignorant of the numbers, it's ok to make some options inferior" is not a good design philosophy. Every class doesn't have to be equal in all respects. But every class should have it's situational strong and weak points that let them be considered equal overall. Personally, I DO think the Champion and Battlemaster are equal overall; but that doesn't mean I think people who hold the opposite opinion are doing anything wrong.
#40 Slyck314 Sep 04, 2014 13:03:35	Just wondering what the best champion/beserker would look like. Increased crit range, reliable advantage on attack, increased damage on crit ...
#41 Timborama Sep 04, 2014 13:09:17	ChrisCarlson wrote:
#42 Dracones Sep 04, 2014 13:10:14	DemoMonkey wrote:
#43 Emerikol. Sep 04, 2014 13:20:12	Assuming I want a non-magical fighter, I'd have to play the battlemaster to avoid the champion. That is reason enough to go for the champion. It's needs some tweaks though.
#44 Lawolf Sep 04, 2014 13:23:30	Timborama wrote:
#45 ChrisCarlson Sep 04, 2014 13:27:23	Lawolf wrote:
#46 Emerikol. Sep 04, 2014 13:43:02	Lawolf wrote:
(Reply to #45) Orzel	ChrisCarlson wrote:
#48 ChrisCarlson Sep 04, 2014 14:00:36	Orzel wrote:
#49 Lawolf Sep 04, 2014 14:48:04	Emerikol. wrote:
#50 Orzel Sep 04, 2014 14:48:27	No I meant the fighters markand the paladin's mark were very different and altered playstyle. Whereas the 5e fighter, paladin, ranger, and barbarian in all play the same until mid levels as the lack the resources to use their unique features enough to feel that different except in short spurts. I mean you COULD reckless attack every turn with your first level barbarian. But you might not make it to level 2.
#51 Lawolf Sep 04, 2014 14:54:41	Orzel wrote:
#52 Illithidbix Sep 04, 2014 15:01:33	Hmm. In terms of getting Advantage, one of the biggest friends a Fighter has is the Shove rules. Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them. The target of your shove must be no more than one size larger than you, and it must be within your reach. You make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). If you win the contest, you either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you.
#53 Lawolf Sep 04, 2014 15:11:42	Illithidbix wrote:
#54 masterfat78 Sep 04, 2014 15:15:47	I personally think the battlemaster is weaker than the champion. You acting like he is going to get multiple rest per day and that is just not gonna happen most of the time unless you shoerten rest (which then throws evrything out of balance). The battlemaster is what I call a penny saver. If he blows his wad all at once he is eithet left being subpar or he will drag the group into 5min workdays. The champion on the other hand can use his crit range not just on his melee weapon but his range weapon adding versatility to a already high damage class. The eldritch knight while having only a few spell adds some neat features along with those spells which make up fo it and have so nice range with their cantrips. Basically in the end the battlemaster is only as effective as how many rests he gets. And Im not seeing my players get short rests ahter each battle espially in dungeouns. This is a disappointment because supposedly the battlemaster was made for my playstyle, but I d much rather play a champion or eldritch knight.
#55 Lawolf Sep 04, 2014 15:27:50	masterfat78 wrote:
#56 Chaosmancer Sep 04, 2014 15:49:56	If the Battlemaster uses Commander's strike on a Champion whose DPR is it? I know the OP didn't want to consider defensive options, but some of the cool abilities the Battlemaster gets are not damage. Precision attack is sickening, adding a d8 up to a d12 to the accuracy of your attack means I don't care what kind of cover or disadvantage I have, I'm probably going to hit you. Parry is a cool option to increase your survivability... In fact I see the extra damage battlemasters get as a cool rider effect to the main purpose of their attacks Manuever allies into position, focus fire on big threats, "heal" up allies, improve your ac vs opportunity attacks ect.
#57 SmellyTerror Sep 04, 2014 16:23:25	This one time, I didn't perform my optimal damage-dealing action. True story.
#58 eleran Sep 04, 2014 17:27:30	SmellyTerror wrote:
(Reply to #58) arderkrag	eleran wrote:
#60 mellored Sep 04, 2014 17:50:11	There's several things you didn't consider. Like haste, oppertunity attacks, or great weapon/polearm master, all which favor the champion.
#61 Fralex Sep 04, 2014 18:25:41	Some people find the simpler subclasses fun. Some find the more complex ones fun. Make the choices you find fun. That's the optimal build. You say the Champion is too weak. Whether your reasons for believing this are flawed or not, it clearly doesn't appeal to you. That's OK. It is impossible to make a game where every option is equally appealing to every person who ever plays it.
(Reply to #36) CVB	Grifford wrote:
(Reply to #62) Slyck314	CVB wrote:
#64 Fralex Sep 04, 2014 19:43:42	CVB wrote:
#65 FFSAA Sep 04, 2014 19:52:10	masterfat78 wrote:
#66 Psikerlord Sep 04, 2014 20:14:02	Orzel wrote:
#67 Slyck314 Sep 04, 2014 20:15:35	There will be times when the Battlemaster misspends his resources. Wastes them frivilously on insignificant encounters and is left in the lurch when he needs them.
(Reply to #66) Fralex	Psikerlord wrote:
#69 Psikerlord Sep 04, 2014 20:35:20	Fralex wrote:
#70 Siderealmotion Sep 04, 2014 20:49:30	It seems to me that the Champion has potential for multiclassing (especially Rogue, Paladin, and Barbarian) or for high level, well geared play. A level 15 Champion with great weapon mastery, a magic 2-hander that adds dice, and something providing him with consistent advantage is going to put out a lot of damage, though the argument can be made that if you are going to go crit fishing, the classes mentioned as potential multiclasses might be a better bet.
#71 Lawolf Sep 04, 2014 21:48:11	Siderealmotion wrote:
(Reply to #71) Siderealmotion	Lawolf wrote:
#73 Grifford Sep 04, 2014 23:00:17	CVB wrote:
#74 Ashrym Sep 04, 2014 23:51:49	Champions are fine. Random damage bonuses in crits are not as good as chosen bonuses in superiority dice, but the champion also gains a second fighting style, naturally athletic for better skills, and the survivor ability. Not everything is about the damage.
#75 Fralex Sep 05, 2014 1:14:00	One of these days I'd like to post a character build optimized for something completely ridiculus, like accounting or speed-dating, but treat it as seriously as someone min/maxing for combat. Just because.
#76 autolycus Sep 05, 2014 1:50:33	Fralex wrote:
#77 Xeviat-DM Sep 05, 2014 2:58:22	Fralex wrote:
#78 Einlanzer Sep 05, 2014 5:32:10	You can't perfectly guage relative balance in a DPR vacuum. Champion definitely gets benefits over Battle Master. I don't think you can easily argue that one is unequivocally better than the other. The same is true for just about any class/subclass. Balance cannot be absolutely perfect, but I'm convinced it's about as good as can be expected.
#79 Thoughts_My_Aim Sep 05, 2014 6:25:13	FFSAA wrote:
#80 FFSAA Sep 05, 2014 6:57:23	Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
#81 Einlanzer Sep 05, 2014 7:17:57	FFSAA wrote:
#82 Thoughts_My_Aim Sep 05, 2014 7:17:48	FFSAA wrote:
#83 ChrisCarlson Sep 05, 2014 7:21:50	FFSAA wrote:
#84 Guest703856308 Sep 05, 2014 7:50:33	Siderealmotion wrote:
#85 Sorxores Sep 05, 2014 12:43:40	Xeviat-DM wrote:
#86 UnknownMourner Sep 05, 2014 13:10:09	Jack-of-All-Physical-Checks is GREAT when exploring, not to mention the manhandling and initiative.
#87 AtomicPope Sep 05, 2014 13:16:57	autolycus wrote:
#88 arnwolf666 Sep 05, 2014 13:26:20	There are reasons for playing a class besides DPR, maybe remarkable athlete, additional fighting style for diversity, or survivor are reasons for playing it as well. Though I quickly admit the Battlemaster has better DPR, at least most of the time.
#89 Dracones Sep 05, 2014 14:47:18	The battlemaster damage is going to depend a lot on how the dice are used. One short rest per day @ level 11 is 10d10 dice which if they're used for non-damage optimal manuevers means less than 55 damage per day added(most manuevers just add superiority dice to damage plus their effect). The champ only has to crit twice per day more to go over that in damage, which will happen during a 16 round adventuring day(54 attacks at level 11). But if the battlemaster is doing ripostes, giving a rogue more sneak attacks or saving the dice to turn misses into hits at important moments I can see them doing more damage pretty easily. I think the classes are well done from a damage balance viewpoint. If you can think up and work out good tactics, the battlemaster is going to do better. If you just want to not think much outside of gaining advantage and hack and slash, the champion is going to perform really well.
#90 Lawolf Sep 05, 2014 15:03:48	Dracones wrote:
#91 FFSAA Sep 05, 2014 15:20:00	Einlanzer wrote:
#92 Atheosis Sep 05, 2014 15:24:53	These forums tickle me. They remind me of video game forums. Buff the Champion! Nerf the Battlemaster! It's not balanced! Seriously it's hilarious.
#93 LongTimeLurker Sep 05, 2014 16:23:52	FFSAA wrote:
#94 Dracones Sep 05, 2014 16:35:34	Lawolf wrote:
#95 Slyck314 Sep 05, 2014 16:42:58	There a few Battlemaster maneuvers that have apparent flaws. Lunging attack requires you to spend the dice to get the reach, but you cou still miss wasting the dice. Riposte require you to be missed by a melee attack first, its uselss if you are hit or attacked by a ranged or spell attack.
#96 masterfat78 Sep 05, 2014 18:02:21	FFSAA wrote:
(Reply to #96) Ashrym	masterfat78 wrote:
(Reply to #85) Xeviat-DM	Sorxores wrote:
#99 grendel111111 Sep 05, 2014 22:07:49	How about just don't use the champion if you don't like it's balance?
#100 UnknownMourner Sep 05, 2014 22:24:38	Also, we haven't seen the DMG. If they ported over the weapon qualities from 4th, with that +d6 or +d8 PER PLUS on crits, or really anything close to that, then Champion's bonkers.
#101 Ramzour Sep 06, 2014 1:07:36	autolycus wrote:
(Reply to #100) Garydee	UnknownMourner wrote:
(Reply to #92) Uchawi	Atheosis wrote:
(Reply to #103) arderkrag	Uchawi wrote:
#105 warpigglet Sep 07, 2014 12:53:19	If these discussions were worthless, I would not read them. They are of interest. It's fun to see how passionate people think about this game. when it's all said and done though, min maxing is something I want to know how to do but try not to focus on. In the end, if damage per whatever was the be all end all, just work out the math to the extent possible and play the same thing each time. There was another thread saying rogues were not needed since wizards can cast invisibility and scout unseen. However, it misses the point that I might enjoy the mental image of a cloaked rogue...and the thrill of making a stealth roll and the chance of missing. For me, the question is not always what does it best, but what can be viable and conjure the mental imagery I am in the mood for. The numbers and tactics matter for me but not the extent that it matters when I play a war game such as War of the Ring or Conflict of Heroes. If there is a debate about which does more by way of damage per sample, fine. This is particularly the case if we can acknowledge that the class with less damage per period is still viable. Is there any question that the champion is viable and impactful? If not, I might just play a champion (I like picturing a warrior climbing obstacles before closing to throw down with some wicked sword blows). I think they can do that just fine at that. Some of the battle master moves seem lame (to me). Pointing out weaknesses during a skirmish? Numbers won't make me do it, just like combining prestige classes in 3rd seemed silly in extreme cases. Watch out! My warlord, divine librarian astronomer gymnast kettle ball expert samurai crits on a 1! Good for you? That's fun? To each his own game je suppose. I might even play a rogue that (gasp) uses daggers instead of short swords!
#106 Einlanzer Sep 07, 2014 15:05:27	DemoMonkey wrote:
#107 ChrisCarlson Sep 08, 2014 7:42:07	warpigglet wrote:
#108 The_Jester Sep 08, 2014 8:13:30	How would changing to a greataxe change the numbers?
#109 ORC_Harold Sep 08, 2014 8:33:24	I've removed content from this thread. Trolling/baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here: company.wizards.com/conduct Please remember to keep your posts polite, on topic and refrain from personal attacks. You are free to disagree with one another as long as it is done in a respectful manner.
#110 Emerikol. Sep 08, 2014 12:18:58	Lawolf wrote:
#111 Zardnaar Sep 08, 2014 13:19:22	Emerikol. wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Xeviat-DM

Sep 04, 2014 2:54:45

Fighter vs. Fighter

I keep getting yelled at for comparing one class to another. How about I compare one build of one class to another build of the same class? I'm going to start simple; the Fighter.

Here's a simple level 3 fighter. We're comparing damage, because everything else is the same (the Eldritch Knight might not be using a shield, but we'll ignore that and assume they drop their sword for spell casting or something), so don't point out that the Battle Master and the Eldritch Knight can use their expertise/spell slots for defense.

Level 3, Str 16, Longsword, Duelist (+5 to hit, 1d8+5 damage, vs. 16 AC ~ 4.975 average)

Champion

Improved Crit; +0.225 damage per attack (crits deal +4.5 damage on average)

Battle Master

Combat Superiority: +4.5 damage x4 per short rest (you don't have to expend your dice until you've scored a hit, so thus they are never waisted).

Eldritch Knight

Spellcasting: +X damage x2 per long rest

burning hands: 3d6 (10.5), save half (x0.75 ~ 7.875); +2.9 vs one, +7.875 vs. additional targets

magic missile: 3d4+3 (10.5), no miss; +5.525 vs. one

The Battle Master is clearly on top here. In order for the Eldritch Knight to match up, we have to assume that the Battle Master does not get a short rest; over the course of a day (which needs to be at least 8 rounds long since they miss half the time, and need to land an attack to deal their bonus damage), the Battle Master deals +18 damage. If the Eldritch Knight tags two opponents each time with their 2 Burning Hands, they deal +21.55 damage. They can never keep up with Magic Missile.

That's doable. One rest, though, and the Battle Master jumps to +36 damage, and the Eldritch Knight needs to hit 3 foes with their burning hands to keep up (dealing +37.3 damage); that's still doable.

For the Champion to keep up with the Battle Master with 1 rest, they have to make 80 attacks per short rest. That's a long day. That's 79 rounds, since action surge helps.

Now, two weapon fighting could help this. Maybe I'm wrong to use the longsword for comparisons; maybe things skew with the great sword ...

Fighter, level 3, Str 16, Greatsword, Great Weapon Fighting (+5 to hit, 2d6*+3 damage, average 11.33; vs. 16 AC ~ 6.08 per attack)

Champion

Improved Crit: +0.42 per attack

Battle Master

Combat Superiority: +4.5 damage x4 per short rest (+18)

Eldritch Knight

Spellcasting: +X damage x2 per long rest

burning hands: 3d6 (10.5), save half (x0.75 ~ 7.875); +1.795 vs one, +7.875 vs. additional targets

So, the Eldritch Knight still needs to hit 2 targets per Burning Hands if there is no short rest in the day (+19.34 vs. +18), and still needs to hit 3 per to be balanced if there's one short rest (+35.1 vs. +36).

There now only needs to be 42 attacks made per short rest for the Champion and Battle Master to be balanced. That's 41 rounds of combat. Since low level fights only last 1 to 4 rounds, that's a lot of fights.

How would I fix it? Maybe the Battle Master needs less dice at level 3, and then to grow them faster as they level.

Lady_Auralla

Sep 04, 2014 3:10:30

Xeviat-DM wrote:

autolycus

Sep 04, 2014 3:18:32

Is the contention here that all fighter variants should do exactly the same damage in battle?

DPS certainly isn't a top concern at my table. In my current campaign the Champion is mechanically simpler and appeals to my newest player (new to RPGs). She was overwhelmed by all the fiddly bits of the other two sub-classes.

The Battle Master in our party is being played by a gamer who has been playing D&D since the 70s. He's happier with a class w/ more crunchiness.

Both are very happy with their fighters. So by the only measure that matters to us they are both perfect sub-classes.

There is more to a class than simple DPS.

Lady_Auralla

Sep 04, 2014 3:32:41

autolycus wrote:

arderkrag

Sep 04, 2014 3:44:56

The champion is much more interesting for me to play, though. So there's that.

autolycus

Sep 04, 2014 3:57:06

Lady_Auralla wrote:

Orzel

Sep 04, 2014 4:13:27

The Champion is better on longer days if you get advantage a lot. With a 19-20 crit range, you crit almost 20% of the time with avantage. Add in opportunity attacks for more attacks and Champions do well.

Uchawi

Sep 04, 2014 4:20:17

The resource management system is not very good for martial characters, and even worse when you throw the champion into the mix. But damage was never a big metric for me when comparing classes. The capabiltiy to learn new things and customize are and in that sense the fighter will never even get close to a caster, not even a warlock. To clarify, I am not talking about the relative power of martial ability versus spells, just a method to learn knew things and become more diverse, i.e. options.

Zardnaar

Sep 04, 2014 4:30:49

Level 3 skews the results. At higher levels the champion will be making a lot more attacks and the duel wielder is good for crit fishing. Level 5 you get 3 attacks per round for example.

The Battlemaster may also not be allowed for example if one is playing Basic D&D or Basic D&D+ some options from the PHB. Polearm and Greatweapon fighters also get more attacks as well than ye olde basic fighter at level 3.

The warlord was probably a semi broken class (or at least one of the power classes) in 4E as well and even the "gimped" fighter version in 5E seems very good.

#10

Jell_Moo

Sep 04, 2014 5:04:53

I think that you have to be careful not to look at the stats in a vaccuum. Damage per day is a very tricky metric to look at in regards to expendable resources vs always on abilities. Especially when the primary mechanic of one has an element of RnG attached to it. If a Battlemaster expends all of their Superiority Dice in the first combat of the day, they may still outdamage the Champion overall, but the Champion ends up being a larger contributor over the next few fights. A short rest shores things up, absolutely, but relying on the ability to have one can be quite problematic.

I think third level is also a really bad one to pick here. I'm not convinced that this is really the balance sweet spot for most of the classes. I mean, the Paladin can pull off 2d6 + 2d8 + 2d6 + X (Greatsword + Divine Smite + Wrathful Smite + damage mod and rerolls of 1s and 2s). That's a pretty staggering amount of damage for level 3. It is *very* resource dependant though, but it spikes up the Paladin's damage per day by a considerable amount.

I agree that this is a potential cause for concern and that doing the math is pretty important. I just feel that there are certain game play intangibles that skew the results slightly.

#11

Zardnaar

Sep 04, 2014 5:09:11

More than a few classes/builds do not come online until later in the levels as well. There are spikes for example at level 4,5,6 and 8 for the various classes and sub classes. Level 3 is probably one of the worst levels to use as well.

#12

FFSAA

Sep 04, 2014 6:16:54

autolycus wrote:

#13

autolycus

Sep 04, 2014 6:20:23

FFSAA wrote:

#14

FFSAA

Sep 04, 2014 6:47:21

autolycus wrote:

#15

autolycus

Sep 04, 2014 6:49:33

FFSAA wrote:

#16

Thoughts_My_Aim

Sep 04, 2014 7:03:36

Also, if you only have fun when you roll a crit, the Champion is twice as much fun as the Battlemaster.

If what you find fun is using limited resources to achieve good results. The Battlemaster is 100% more fun than the Champion.

If what you find fun is having a character that works straight out of the box without having to keep track of limited resources, the Champion is 100% more fun than the Battlemaster.

#17

FFSAA

Sep 04, 2014 7:16:03

autolycus wrote:

#18

autolycus

Sep 04, 2014 7:20:03

Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:

#19

Thoughts_My_Aim

Sep 04, 2014 7:28:02

Numbers are misleading.

You knew, before you chose to play a champion, that the Battlemaster would get Superiority Dice and you wouldn't. Why do you suddenly think that this is an unacceptable advantage now that somebody has expressed it in terms of an average-damage-per-short-rest?

#20

spelley

Sep 04, 2014 7:35:17

Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:

#21

Thoughts_My_Aim

Sep 04, 2014 7:44:16

spelley wrote:

#22

DemoMonkey

Sep 04, 2014 7:46:21

Balancing factors:

1) Advantage is a significant boost to a Champions damage. How easily can you get it?

2) Short rests are essential to the BattleMaster. How frequently are situations going to arise when they are NOT available between encounters?

3) Fighting styles and feats that boost damage dice or number of attacks over flat bonuses to hit/damage favour the Champion. Duelist (the style used in the example) is one of the weakest for Champions. GWF or TWF would both be better.

#23

MykeSchultz

Sep 04, 2014 7:49:24

I was worried about the champion at first (perhaps I will be again). But I'm glad there was a rebuttal with some numbers and context. Plus, the champion's crit gets better. Plus, you get to pick another fighting style down the line. I'm not a numbers guy, nor a conceptual math guy, but I feel better now.

#24

Timborama

Sep 04, 2014 8:17:44

Lady_Auralla wrote:

#25

Timborama

Sep 04, 2014 8:24:53

autolycus wrote:

#26

eleran

Sep 04, 2014 8:28:20

to respond to the OP, the Chasmpion is not weak. It is just weaker in some circumstances than the Battlemaster, but that does not make it inferior or bad. It makes it different.

(Reply to #4)

grendel111111

Lady_Auralla wrote:

#28

Dracones

Sep 04, 2014 8:41:48

Your comparisons are really off on the Champion vs Battle Master. For a Champion go GWM and seek advantage to maximize your crit chances. The crit will give you another attack via GWM, which boosts your damage up quite a bit. By the time you hit your mid teens you should be criting nearly every round when you have advantage.

With GWF/GWM the Champion is going to be better damage than the Battle Master unless you have a rogue in the party. If you do then go Battle Master and spend your dice on giving the rogue off turn attacks.

#29

Timborama

Sep 04, 2014 9:53:28

Dracones wrote:

#30

FFSAA

Sep 04, 2014 10:29:19

Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:

#31

Timborama

Sep 04, 2014 10:32:14

Also, back on topic, I think, OP you need to choose a better level to do these comparisons. Or perhaps MORE levels to use as comparisons. And using optimized, or psuedo-optimized builds would do. Why only level 3 and not level 20 (and/or levels 5, 10, and 15?)? Why doesn't the Champion have GWF and/or GWM?

Unless, of course, you are personally starting at level 3 and want opinions about the here-and-now, not worrying about level 4 or anything. In which case say so and we can narrow our own scopes!

#32

Eric888

Sep 04, 2014 10:36:44

We still have not seen the DMG. Dagger Masters in 4e were only insnane because of the multitude of magic items that made crits more powerful. Hold your opinion on how good doubling your crit chance is until we know how much synergy there is with items.

#33

Dracones

Sep 04, 2014 10:45:45

Eric888 wrote:

#34

FFSAA

Sep 04, 2014 11:37:23

Dracones wrote:

#35

DemoMonkey

Sep 04, 2014 12:23:54

"Not sure the great sword helps champions any more than battlemasters, less I'd think"

Increasing the base weapon damage favours the Champion more. They both get the increase, but the Champion ALSO gets it on their 1 in 20 "I get a critical but you don't, nyaah" chance.

It's a tiny swing in their favour, but it's still a swing.

#36

Grifford

Sep 04, 2014 12:34:04

Since when are sublcasses obligated to produce equal numbers in everyone's pet white room scenarios?

"Balance entitlement" people baffle the hell out of me. It's a game, not an account ledger.

#37

ChrisCarlson

Sep 04, 2014 12:40:50

Grifford wrote:

#38

Dracones

Sep 04, 2014 12:44:19

FFSAA wrote:

#39

DemoMonkey

Sep 04, 2014 12:47:15

"As long as people are ignorant of the numbers, it's ok to make some options inferior" is not a good design philosophy.

Every class doesn't have to be equal in all respects. But every class should have it's situational strong and weak points that let them be considered equal overall.

Personally, I DO think the Champion and Battlemaster are equal overall; but that doesn't mean I think people who hold the opposite opinion are doing anything wrong.

#40

Slyck314

Sep 04, 2014 13:03:35

Just wondering what the best champion/beserker would look like. Increased crit range, reliable advantage on attack, increased damage on crit ...

#41

Timborama

Sep 04, 2014 13:09:17

ChrisCarlson wrote:

#42

Dracones

Sep 04, 2014 13:10:14

DemoMonkey wrote:

#43

Emerikol.

Sep 04, 2014 13:20:12

Assuming I want a non-magical fighter, I'd have to play the battlemaster to avoid the champion. That is reason enough to go for the champion. It's needs some tweaks though.

#44

Lawolf

Sep 04, 2014 13:23:30

Timborama wrote:

#45

ChrisCarlson

Sep 04, 2014 13:27:23

Lawolf wrote:

#46

Emerikol.

Sep 04, 2014 13:43:02

Lawolf wrote:

(Reply to #45)

Orzel

ChrisCarlson wrote:

#48

ChrisCarlson

Sep 04, 2014 14:00:36

Orzel wrote:

#49

Lawolf

Sep 04, 2014 14:48:04

Emerikol. wrote:

#50

Orzel

Sep 04, 2014 14:48:27

No I meant the fighters markand the paladin's mark were very different and altered playstyle. Whereas the 5e fighter, paladin, ranger, and barbarian in all play the same until mid levels as the lack the resources to use their unique features enough to feel that different except in short spurts. I mean you COULD reckless attack every turn with your first level barbarian. But you might not make it to level 2.

#51

Lawolf

Sep 04, 2014 14:54:41

Orzel wrote:

#52

Illithidbix

Sep 04, 2014 15:01:33

Hmm. In terms of getting Advantage, one of the biggest friends a Fighter has is the Shove rules.

Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you.

If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.
The target of your shove must be no more than one size larger than you, and it must be within your reach.
You make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use).
If you win the contest, you either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you.

#53

Lawolf

Sep 04, 2014 15:11:42

Illithidbix wrote:

#54

masterfat78

Sep 04, 2014 15:15:47

I personally think the battlemaster is weaker than the champion. You acting like he is going to get multiple rest per day and that is just not gonna happen most of the time unless you shoerten rest (which then throws evrything out of balance). The battlemaster is what I call a penny saver. If he blows his wad all at once he is eithet left being subpar or he will drag the group into 5min workdays.

The champion on the other hand can use his crit range not just on his melee weapon but his range weapon adding versatility to a already high damage class.

The eldritch knight while having only a few spell adds some neat features along with those spells which make up fo it and have so nice range with their cantrips.

Basically in the end the battlemaster is only as effective as how many rests he gets. And Im not seeing my players get short rests ahter each battle espially in dungeouns.

This is a disappointment because supposedly the battlemaster was made for my playstyle, but I d much rather play a champion or eldritch knight.

#55

Lawolf

Sep 04, 2014 15:27:50

masterfat78 wrote:

#56

Chaosmancer

Sep 04, 2014 15:49:56

If the Battlemaster uses Commander's strike on a Champion whose DPR is it?

I know the OP didn't want to consider defensive options, but some of the cool abilities the Battlemaster gets are not damage. Precision attack is sickening, adding a d8 up to a d12 to the accuracy of your attack means I don't care what kind of cover or disadvantage I have, I'm probably going to hit you. Parry is a cool option to increase your survivability... In fact I see the extra damage battlemasters get as a cool rider effect to the main purpose of their attacks Manuever allies into position, focus fire on big threats, "heal" up allies, improve your ac vs opportunity attacks ect.

#57

SmellyTerror

Sep 04, 2014 16:23:25

This one time, I didn't perform my optimal damage-dealing action.

True story.

#58

eleran

Sep 04, 2014 17:27:30

SmellyTerror wrote:

(Reply to #58)

arderkrag

eleran wrote:

#60

mellored

Sep 04, 2014 17:50:11

There's several things you didn't consider.

Like haste, oppertunity attacks, or great weapon/polearm master, all which favor the champion.

#61

Fralex

Sep 04, 2014 18:25:41

Some people find the simpler subclasses fun. Some find the more complex ones fun. Make the choices you find fun. That's the optimal build.

You say the Champion is too weak. Whether your reasons for believing this are flawed or not, it clearly doesn't appeal to you. That's OK. It is impossible to make a game where every option is equally appealing to every person who ever plays it.

(Reply to #36)

CVB

Grifford wrote:

(Reply to #62)

Slyck314

CVB wrote:

#64

Fralex

Sep 04, 2014 19:43:42

CVB wrote:

#65

FFSAA

Sep 04, 2014 19:52:10

masterfat78 wrote:

#66

Psikerlord

Sep 04, 2014 20:14:02

Orzel wrote:

#67

Slyck314

Sep 04, 2014 20:15:35

There will be times when the Battlemaster misspends his resources. Wastes them frivilously on insignificant encounters and is left in the lurch when he needs them.

(Reply to #66)

Fralex

Psikerlord wrote:

#69

Psikerlord

Sep 04, 2014 20:35:20

Fralex wrote:

#70

Siderealmotion

Sep 04, 2014 20:49:30

It seems to me that the Champion has potential for multiclassing (especially Rogue, Paladin, and Barbarian) or for high level, well geared play. A level 15 Champion with great weapon mastery, a magic 2-hander that adds dice, and something providing him with consistent advantage is going to put out a lot of damage, though the argument can be made that if you are going to go crit fishing, the classes mentioned as potential multiclasses might be a better bet.

#71

Lawolf

Sep 04, 2014 21:48:11

Siderealmotion wrote:

(Reply to #71)

Siderealmotion

Lawolf wrote:

#73

Grifford

Sep 04, 2014 23:00:17

CVB wrote:

#74

Ashrym

Sep 04, 2014 23:51:49

Champions are fine. Random damage bonuses in crits are not as good as chosen bonuses in superiority dice, but the champion also gains a second fighting style, naturally athletic for better skills, and the survivor ability. Not everything is about the damage.

#75

Fralex

Sep 05, 2014 1:14:00

One of these days I'd like to post a character build optimized for something completely ridiculus, like accounting or speed-dating, but treat it as seriously as someone min/maxing for combat. Just because.

#76

autolycus

Sep 05, 2014 1:50:33

Fralex wrote:

#77

Xeviat-DM

Sep 05, 2014 2:58:22

Fralex wrote:

#78

Einlanzer

Sep 05, 2014 5:32:10

You can't perfectly guage relative balance in a DPR vacuum. Champion definitely gets benefits over Battle Master. I don't think you can easily argue that one is unequivocally better than the other. The same is true for just about any class/subclass. Balance cannot be absolutely perfect, but I'm convinced it's about as good as can be expected.

#79

Thoughts_My_Aim

Sep 05, 2014 6:25:13

FFSAA wrote:

#80

FFSAA

Sep 05, 2014 6:57:23

Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:

#81

Einlanzer

Sep 05, 2014 7:17:57

FFSAA wrote:

#82

Thoughts_My_Aim

Sep 05, 2014 7:17:48

FFSAA wrote:

#83

ChrisCarlson

Sep 05, 2014 7:21:50

FFSAA wrote:

#84

Guest703856308

Sep 05, 2014 7:50:33

Siderealmotion wrote:

#85

Sorxores

Sep 05, 2014 12:43:40

Xeviat-DM wrote:

#86

UnknownMourner

Sep 05, 2014 13:10:09

Jack-of-All-Physical-Checks is GREAT when exploring, not to mention the manhandling and initiative.

#87

AtomicPope

Sep 05, 2014 13:16:57

autolycus wrote:

#88

arnwolf666

Sep 05, 2014 13:26:20

There are reasons for playing a class besides DPR, maybe remarkable athlete, additional fighting style for diversity, or survivor are reasons for playing it as well. Though I quickly admit the Battlemaster has better DPR, at least most of the time.

#89

Dracones

Sep 05, 2014 14:47:18

The battlemaster damage is going to depend a lot on how the dice are used. One short rest per day @ level 11 is 10d10 dice which if they're used for non-damage optimal manuevers means less than 55 damage per day added(most manuevers just add superiority dice to damage plus their effect). The champ only has to crit twice per day more to go over that in damage, which will happen during a 16 round adventuring day(54 attacks at level 11).

But if the battlemaster is doing ripostes, giving a rogue more sneak attacks or saving the dice to turn misses into hits at important moments I can see them doing more damage pretty easily.

I think the classes are well done from a damage balance viewpoint. If you can think up and work out good tactics, the battlemaster is going to do better. If you just want to not think much outside of gaining advantage and hack and slash, the champion is going to perform really well.

#90

Lawolf

Sep 05, 2014 15:03:48

Dracones wrote:

#91

FFSAA

Sep 05, 2014 15:20:00

Einlanzer wrote:

#92

Atheosis

Sep 05, 2014 15:24:53

These forums tickle me. They remind me of video game forums. Buff the Champion! Nerf the Battlemaster! It's not balanced! Seriously it's hilarious.

#93

LongTimeLurker

Sep 05, 2014 16:23:52

FFSAA wrote:

#94

Dracones

Sep 05, 2014 16:35:34

Lawolf wrote:

#95

Slyck314

Sep 05, 2014 16:42:58

There a few Battlemaster maneuvers that have apparent flaws. Lunging attack requires you to spend the dice to get the reach, but you cou still miss wasting the dice. Riposte require you to be missed by a melee attack first, its uselss if you are hit or attacked by a ranged or spell attack.

#96

masterfat78

Sep 05, 2014 18:02:21

FFSAA wrote:

(Reply to #96)

Ashrym

masterfat78 wrote:

(Reply to #85)

Xeviat-DM

Sorxores wrote:

#99

grendel111111

Sep 05, 2014 22:07:49

How about just don't use the champion if you don't like it's balance?

#100

UnknownMourner

Sep 05, 2014 22:24:38

Also, we haven't seen the DMG.

If they ported over the weapon qualities from 4th, with that +d6 or +d8 PER PLUS on crits, or really anything close to that, then Champion's bonkers.

#101

Ramzour

Sep 06, 2014 1:07:36

autolycus wrote:

(Reply to #100)

Garydee

UnknownMourner wrote:

(Reply to #92)

Uchawi

Atheosis wrote:

(Reply to #103)

arderkrag

Uchawi wrote:

#105

warpigglet

Sep 07, 2014 12:53:19

If these discussions were worthless, I would not read them. They are of interest. It's fun to see how passionate people think about this game.

when it's all said and done though, min maxing is something I want to know how to do but try not to focus on. In the end, if damage per whatever was the be all end all, just work out the math to the extent possible and play the same thing each time. There was another thread saying rogues were not needed since wizards can cast invisibility and scout unseen.

However, it misses the point that I might enjoy the mental image of a cloaked rogue...and the thrill of making a stealth roll and the chance of missing.

For me, the question is not always what does it best, but what can be viable and conjure the mental imagery I am in the mood for. The numbers and tactics matter for me but not the extent that it matters when I play a war game such as War of the Ring or Conflict of Heroes.

If there is a debate about which does more by way of damage per sample, fine. This is particularly the case if we can acknowledge that the class with less damage per period is still viable.

Is there any question that the champion is viable and impactful? If not, I might just play a champion (I like picturing a warrior climbing obstacles before closing to throw down with some wicked sword blows). I think they can do that just fine at that. Some of the battle master moves seem lame (to me). Pointing out weaknesses during a skirmish? Numbers won't make me do it, just like combining prestige classes in 3rd seemed silly in extreme cases. Watch out! My warlord, divine librarian astronomer gymnast kettle ball expert samurai crits on a 1!

Good for you? That's fun? To each his own game je suppose.

I might even play a rogue that (gasp) uses daggers instead of short swords!

#106

Einlanzer

Sep 07, 2014 15:05:27

DemoMonkey wrote:

#107

ChrisCarlson

Sep 08, 2014 7:42:07

warpigglet wrote:

#108

The_Jester

Sep 08, 2014 8:13:30

How would changing to a greataxe change the numbers?

#109

ORC_Harold

Sep 08, 2014 8:33:24

I've removed content from this thread. Trolling/baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct.

You can review the Code of Conduct here: company.wizards.com/conduct

Please remember to keep your posts polite, on topic and refrain from personal attacks. You are free to disagree with one another as long as it is done in a respectful manner.

#110

Emerikol.

Sep 08, 2014 12:18:58

Lawolf wrote:

#111

Zardnaar

Sep 08, 2014 13:19:22

Emerikol. wrote: