Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Conterter Dec 17, 2014 9:25:49	vicious weapons does 0.35 damage at swing kind of (don't know the math) 0.7 if you always have advantage while +1...well they add +1. Also add damage on a crit can be overkill. So apart from roleplaying i don't see why the difference in rarity (and price) favour +1 weapons
#2 Slyck314 Dec 17, 2014 9:31:15	Roleplaying is enough. But I suppose if you want something more mechanical then +1 weapon is simply universaly good while the viscious weapon could be exceptional in some characters hands, like maybe an assassin.
#3 Conterter Dec 17, 2014 10:09:53	i'd agree with you if bonus damage was added on a crit but sadly is on a 20 (that is what bugs me) p.s sorry for not posting the effect of vicious before
#4 bawylie Dec 17, 2014 11:44:46	Traditional. +N weapons are part of our game's common lexicon. "Vicious" aren't as well known.
#5 Istbor Dec 17, 2014 14:11:21	I miss old vicious from 3.0/3.5 2d6 extra damage on an attack and 1d6 dmg to yourself.
#6 hunterian7 Dec 17, 2014 23:38:51	Slyck314 wrote:
#7 Grazel Dec 18, 2014 0:06:58	Also keep in mind the vicious weapon is on a nat 20 it does double damage dice + modifiers + 7 (from visious) while the +1 weapon always just adds 1 damage, so on a nat 20 it does double damage dice + modifiers + 1 (not +2, as in 5e only the dice are rolled twice, any modifiers are added after that and not doubled). So while you'll get a bit (+1) extra damage on any hit with a nat 20 you get an extra 6 damage off the vicious weapon which can be more decisive in a battle than an extra point per hit. I think it's also done as rare to make it fit the lore, basically it's harder to make a weapon that cuts deeper when it hits well than just a weapon that's a bit sharper than other weapons and a bit easier to use, but is equal to a +2 weapon which is a bit sharper and easier to use than the basic +1. Of course rarities are just a guideline for how often they're found, not what they're worth (as without optional rules you can't really buy or sell magical weapons) or how well they perform.
#8 Conterter Dec 18, 2014 1:58:58	Grazel wrote:
#9 JohnLynch Dec 18, 2014 2:31:20	If you don't like viscous weapon then don't hand it out. I quite like it and would happily use it over a +2 weapon.
#10 mellored Dec 18, 2014 7:40:26	Conterter wrote:
#11 Elfcrusher Dec 18, 2014 8:05:39	I talked to a friend who is a professional blacksmith and enchanter. He said that +1 weapons are relatively easy to make, whereas vicious weapons are time-consuming and if you make one mistake you have to start over. Most enchanter-smiths can't make a profit selling vicious weapons.  It's all market driven.
#12 FFSAA Dec 18, 2014 8:25:42	mellored wrote:
#13 mellored Dec 18, 2014 8:25:43	FFSAA wrote:
#14 Conterter Dec 18, 2014 8:29:51	mellored wrote:
#15 Stormborn20 Dec 18, 2014 8:28:14	Elfcrusher wrote:
#16 Azzy1974 Dec 18, 2014 8:36:06	Elfcrusher for the win!
#17 Conterter Dec 18, 2014 8:44:21	FFSAA wrote:
#18 Kalani Dec 18, 2014 9:05:02	There are two other methods to increase the odds of rolling a 20 which have yet to be considered. Halfling (race): Increases the base odds to 10% due to their Halfling Luck trait. This is the same benefit as rolling with advantage for the purposes of rolling a nat. 20. Lucky (feat): At any point (including when you have disadvantage), you can roll an extra d20 and choose the better result.  Advantage is superior to halfling luck for the purpose of hitting an enemy - but for the purpose of rolling a nat. 20 - halfling luck & advantage are equal. Both increase the odds of rolling a nat.20 to 10%. For the purpose of activating the viscious weapon effect, halflings effectively have permanent advantage.   I would not say that this makes halflings with viscious weapons equivalent/superior to +1 weapons, but it is a factor to consider.
#19 mellored Dec 18, 2014 9:17:21	Kalani wrote:
#20 FFSAA Dec 18, 2014 9:55:56	Conterter wrote:
#21 kalil Dec 18, 2014 10:22:21	Ofc they are rare. Why the heck would anyone make one? They suck! Good items should logically be far more common than niche ghost touch junk.
#22 Mirtek Dec 18, 2014 11:24:14	It's obvious that people quickly realized how much wors vicious weapons actually are and stopped making them. Most of the ones already made were feed to rust monsters and that's why they are rare nowadays.
#23 Conterter Dec 18, 2014 13:11:21	I'll change this thread title in something like: if blacksmiths don't make vicious weapons why dungeon master developers did?   btw thank kalani a actually didn't think about those 2
#24 Mistwell Dec 18, 2014 13:19:16	Conterter wrote:
#25 Mistwell Dec 18, 2014 13:29:37	hunterian7 wrote:
#26 Mischiefincdm Dec 18, 2014 13:40:27	Item rarity is not just about power or effectiveness. If so, a broom of flying would not be uncommon. I agree that a. Base +1 weapon is actually better for most characters and see no prohibition in a dm either adjusting the rarity of this item or ignoring it altogether. Some items are just better than others.
(Reply to #6) 1eejit	hunterian7 wrote:
#28 Uchawi Dec 19, 2014 3:57:44	Rarity should offer something the character would covet. Which would be the power or usefullness of the item, or monetary value. From a mechanics standpoint associating rarity with power makes complete sense, because it is another avenue to add complexity to the game. Hopefully there is a known and predictable power curve increase, but 5E was not developed as that game. It is a blast from the past, without worrying about the details of magic item creation or the impact on the game.
#29 ChrisCarlson Dec 19, 2014 6:04:18	Right, because if I want to give my players a one-of-a-kind magic item, it should have to be epic in power? It can just as easily be a neat baubble or minor magical trinket, even though "unique" is the highest rarity there is.
#30 Karnos Dec 19, 2014 7:11:38	Vicious weapons are specially designed to serve a niche- killing those nasty creatures with very high AC.   If a monster's AC is so insanely high that you need a natural 20 just to hit it, a vicious weapon outperforms even a +5 weapon.   It's a rare case, but it exists nonetheless.
#31 Conterter Dec 19, 2014 7:58:14	Karnos wrote:
#32 Kalani Dec 19, 2014 8:22:29	Uchawi wrote:
#33 FFSAA Dec 19, 2014 8:31:31	Kalani wrote:
#34 Kalani Dec 19, 2014 9:20:35	FFSAA wrote:
#35 Karnos Dec 19, 2014 10:17:01	Conterter wrote:
#36 FFSAA Dec 19, 2014 10:50:50	Kalani wrote:
#37 Conterter Dec 19, 2014 11:33:30	flametongue has same rarity as vicious and sorry for not being correct, i was referring at wand of magic missle, uncommon item without need to be a caster to use has 7 charges to cast lvl 1 (or more if you use more charges) magic missle.  Those are the first thing that comes to my mind i'm pretty sure there are others. Anyway if you are thinking a monster that can be hit only with a 20, immune to fire and magic missile or with enough hp to survive against a magic missle wand then i think i'll just run away :P
(Reply to #37) Karnos	A vicuos weapon does not require attunement.  Flametongue etc do.  So if you have 3 amazing attunement items in other slots and can't spare an attunement for your weapon, vicious might be the weapon for you.
#39 Conterter Dec 20, 2014 0:41:01	Neither +x weapons nor wand of magic missle requires attunements, also since the  "you must roll 20 to hit" monster will be at least rare, you can just unattune one of your item for the flametongue. Anyway I am not telling that you must not use vicious, I am just saying you should not. Also many magic weapons are less powerfull than their +x counterpart, I am happy with them because they may offer something else or are just cool. On the contrary if you are using a vicious weapon you should hide yourself or be nicer with your DM because probably he hates you. (i'm joking)
#40 mellored Dec 20, 2014 10:17:59	I don't see a problem with a few higher level items being worse then Lower level ones. It helps the randomness.
#41 Karnos Dec 20, 2014 18:26:56	Conterter wrote:
#42 Conterter Dec 21, 2014 0:30:07	Using the worst magical weapon in the whole book  all the time, just in case I find an enemy not listed in the monster manual (it may be a reason for that), doesn't seems a clever idea to me. But if you think it is please go ahead. Also unless that monster has 0 attack you will die anyway before you can do some damage with vicious and in any case you better leave. Anyway to end this discussion you can create a particular situation where vicious is the best weapon and this is true for anything so it's not a point in favour of  vicious weapon. Let's pretend you face the mighty moster immune to everything except pony tears, whould you use pony tears as as your weapon of choice because it's the best solution in case you face that monster.
#43 Karnos Dec 21, 2014 6:36:11	I think you are confused.  I never once said a vicious weapon is the best choice to use 100% of the time.  I said it's a niche weapon that is good to use if you can only hit on a 20, because then every hit will get the +7 damage bonus.   It doesn't even require attunement, so there is no penalty for carrying it around with you just incase such a situation occurs.
#44 Conterter Dec 22, 2014 0:40:04	Ok I apologise, my bad