Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Xeviat-DM Sep 08, 2015 1:11:55	Hi everyone. For a while now, I've been wracking my brain over figuring out a new way of doing wild shape. I ran a game with a Moon Druid all the way through 5th level, and my worries about the subclass proved true in that case. The character was only brought out of her form once, and never fell to unconsciousness, even though all of the other characters dropped on numerous occasions; it was a combat heavy game, with a fair amount of hard encounters. To make things worse, she never once used her combat wild shape bonus action heal ability; she didn't have to, and she was using tiger as her beast exclusively (except the time she turned into a horse since the group lost two of their horses).   But as I was putting different options together, I ran into the same issue I'm now fairly sure the designers ran into; balancing the scales between simplicity and ease of use against balance. It's tough. Any "fix" of wild shape would divorse it from the general polymorphing rules. I'd love to change the general polymorphing rules, to something more like Alter Self with lists of bonuses, but I don't think that would be quick to use at the table.   Who here has seen more than a few uses of wild shape (moon druid specifically) and polymorph in their games? How have they played out for you? Would you be okay with something along the lines of Pathfinder's Beast Shape spells (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/beastShape.html#beast-shape-i), or would that be too different for D&D5's system? How would having damage taken in polymorph form applying to base form change things (polymorph and wild shape would definitely be for offense rather than defense at that point, and the offenses of wild shape seem to fall as levels increase)?   What are your thoughts?
#2 mellored Sep 08, 2015 5:21:22	Moon druid doesn't scale very well, though i agree it can be a bit much the first few levels.   Just make sure your using the beasts AC, as well as the beasts to-hit.  You can go though 30 HP quick when everything hits the druid, and the druid doesn't hit back very often.   IMO, the CR curve could be adjusted a bit.   Start with CR 1/2 Then go to CR 1 at level 5. Then increase the CR every 2 levels (7, 9, 11, 13, ect..), which lands you CR 7 at 19.
#3 LuisCarlos17f Sep 08, 2015 6:30:44	In my setting the polymorph has got a special functioning.   The original body doesn´t change its genetic code but it becomes demi-corporreal, not solid, neither totally incorporial, and it is added a second body, created by ectoplasm, something like the sport mascot costumes. Do you remember the psionic astral construct power? Let's imagine it being used to wear an armour, like the character Hisako Ichiki alias "Armor", from X-Marvel comics.    The werebeasts have got two (or more) living bodies, but only can be solid, and the other are only demincorporeal.   * How much food do creatures with polymorph powers need, if they use bodies with different bodies? For example dragons.   * What if a "weak" shape could be use to got, or escape? For example a bird could go to the top of the tower to the princess' window.   * What if a characters use an animal shape to be immune to a contagious disease? Carrion-eaters have got the best immunological system.    * Could a druid with a boar shape search truffles with better smelling to selling? Or even growin truffles with primal magic.
#4 Yunru Sep 08, 2015 7:46:11	That's... the point of the Moon Druid. To say that the Moon Druid never dropping out of form is a problem is equivalent to saying the Barbarian never dropping unconscious is a problem. The Land Druid is a backrow spellcaster, the Moon Druid is a frontline fighter.
#5 Scallat Sep 08, 2015 8:30:11	Honestly, just keep running Moon druids as they are. It isn't a big deal IMO. They scale pretty poorly as you level up and their AC isn't great. A CR5 enemy like a roper or a hill giant can easily knock a druid out of their animal form. A more difficult CR five encounter such as a handful of orcs with an Eye of Gruumush for support or A handful of Hobgoblins with a Hobgoblin captain can shred a hit points really easily too. Something like a flameskull or appropriately leveled sorcerer or wizard enemy can drop a druid easily enough too.   Also it's really not that big of a deal if a character is a bit more powerful than the others for a few levels. Druids are really strong early let them have their fun someone else will get a chance to shine.
#6 Horwath Sep 08, 2015 9:27:43	They are frontliners with no armor to speak off. everything hits them. Average AC of CR1 beasts that cannot fly is 12. CR2 AC is even lower. most of CR1/8 creatures have atleast +3 to hit and 1d4+1 damage.
#7 Yunru Sep 08, 2015 9:53:26	Yeah but that's why there's Barkskin.
#8 AaronOfBarbaria Sep 08, 2015 10:25:31	Xeviat-DM wrote:
#9 shintashi Sep 08, 2015 10:49:47	i think of the druid in 5e as being a better shapeshifter than in AD&D with weaker summoning powers. they are worse shifters than available in 3rd edition, but probably better summoners (elementals). All in all, the repeated shifting for HP is the most powerful aspect of the ability. Barring that, the individual shapes are weak for much of the game play most will experience. The higher the level of a character, the more unlikely they are to see another campaign, which means you get a lot of play time with low powered forms, making it more of an imagination/practice thing, rather than a mechanical advantage. A Wizard's Shapechange is a mechanical advantage by comparison, but they get little practice with it, so an unimaginative wizard could have inferior results to a seasoned druid with lower CR options.
#10 mellored Sep 08, 2015 14:18:42	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #8) Xeviat-DM	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
(Reply to #11) AaronOfBarbaria	Xeviat-DM wrote:
#13 mellored Sep 08, 2015 19:26:12	Xeviat-DM wrote:
(Reply to #13) Xeviat-DM	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #14) Yunru	Xeviat-DM wrote:
(Reply to #15) Xeviat-DM	Yunru wrote:
#17 mellored Sep 09, 2015 5:27:44	Xeviat-DM wrote:
#18 Scallat Sep 09, 2015 8:22:23	Wildshape Druid vs Wearboar. Go.   Honestly it's really not that big of a deal. I wouldn't waste the effort house ruling this. They're strong but it isn't game breakingly strong. If you really want to challenge your party you're better off giving them enemies they a wildshape druid will struggle to fight. Which, I'm sure people can make tons of suggestions for encounters that will wreck a tiger shape druid.   Twelve flying Kobolds. Literally any caster with fireball. Any fighter type enemy with decent +attack and multi-attack. I've dropped a Bear form druid back to human form with two bug bear attacks (with surprise). You can easily do with with one round of hobgoblin combat. Any young dragon's breath weapon will do it. These are not overpowered enemies it's normal stuff that players will fight at around level 5. Half a dozen Hobgoblins that's like a CR 3 encounter...
#19 mellored Sep 09, 2015 9:31:42	Probably the most direct comparison....   +185 HP from the land cleric, if he cast mass cure wounds twice with his extra slots (and heals 5 creatures). +100 HP from casting goodberry 10 extra times.   +200 from a life cleric's channel divinity.  (not other features).