Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Toshi Sep 01, 2014 11:33:32	The monks I have played for the last 30+ years have always had a small increase in AC as they leveled up.  This represented the thought that without armor to slow you down, your martial art training should block, avoid and counter attacks better and better. Just adding wisdom doesn't cut it.  There should be an additional rule that accounts for this.    The Barbarian gets the same unarmored bonus PLUS a shield.  Kind of lessens the "neat" factor for the monk's unarmored defense.  Maybe a future version will address this.  Perhaps I'll house rule to add 1/2 your proficiency bonus to AC, or allow ki to be spent to increase ac for the length of a battle.
#2 FFSAA Sep 01, 2014 11:50:58	That bonus you say is for how dodgy they are... they get it even when they can't dodge or when they aren't aware of the attack to dodge it.  So there is that.  Anyway, take a level of fighter and wear plate and shield, get the fighting style +1 AC bonus and get heavy armor master like everyone else.  Or wait for the bracers of protection to come out which will give them +3 AC.
#3 Polaris Sep 01, 2014 12:03:29	I honestly don't see a problem.  Assuming you start with both Dex and Wis scores of 16 (not too hard even using AL rules), a monk starts with an AC of 16 and monk abilities depend almost entirely on Dex and Wis so boosting them will always help (by about +1 AC per four levels) topping off at 20 AC...and that's assuming you get nothing else to help.   By contrast, sure the Barbarian can top out at 22 (24 at 20th assuming a single classed barbarian and a final Con of 24), but that would take a 20 [to a 24 at 20th level] Con and Dexterity both, and unlike Fighters (or Monks), almost all the Barbarian combat abilities are explicitly linked to Strength attacks making the Barbarian suffer from a strong case of MAD.   So while the Barbarian may seem to have a higher ceiling, in practice he doesn't because the barbarian will either have to go medium armor and concentrate on Strength, or go "nekkid" and sacrifice critical strength for Dex that does less for the Barbarian than the Fighter or Monk.  By contrast every attribute boost that help's the Monk's AC also helps the Monk's primary class abilities.   -Polaris
#4 Toshi Sep 01, 2014 12:17:25	Again, I am speaking of "Progressive AC" that says "hey, you're getting better and better at martial arts", not  "Start big, then trickle for 20 levels".  I have played the monk long enough to know that this has been very important in previous editions.  That being said, I'm not passing full judgement until I play the 5e monk longer.
#5 Polaris Sep 01, 2014 12:20:53	Toshi wrote:
#6 WhiteHarness Sep 01, 2014 12:41:21	I don't see a problem.   A guy with no armor on at all, no matter how nimble, should never have an Armor Class anywhere near as good as that of a guy in full steel plate.
#7 Brock_Landers Sep 01, 2014 12:44:19	WhiteHarness wrote:
#8 WhiteHarness Sep 01, 2014 12:49:07	Brock_Landers wrote:
#9 souldoubt Sep 01, 2014 12:51:24	Yeah, nobody's AC goes up as they level unless they invest in stat boosts and/or better armor.  That's just the way the game works.  Scaling HP is your increase in survivability.   And monks eventually get proficiency in ALL Saving Throws.  They have some of the best defenses in the game.
(Reply to #6) Toshi	WhiteHarness wrote:
(Reply to #10) Polaris	Toshi wrote:
#12 Jell_Moo Sep 01, 2014 13:42:58	Monks gain that ability through Ki though. They can spend Ki to move around the battlefield without worrying about opportunity attacks. Being able to Dodge, Disengage or Dash as a bonus action gives them a lot of battlefield mobility. Add in Deflect Missiles and Evasion, and your ability and skill to avoid damage is pretty well represented. You may not have the traditional AC, but you have great options that are also thematically appropriate.
#13 ankiyavon Sep 01, 2014 13:58:49	I think it already sort of does.   Monks are much more likely than other classes to select a stat boost which bumps their AC.  A fighter is going to bump Str; his AC will not go up as he levels.  A wizard, Int; again, AC not going up with levels.   A monk, basically every time, is going to bump Dex or Wis, which will increase their AC.
#14 FFSAA Sep 01, 2014 14:02:42	Brock_Landers wrote:
#15 Brock_Landers Sep 01, 2014 14:23:45	FFSAA wrote:
#16 Toshi Sep 01, 2014 14:27:52	Jell_Moo wrote:
#17 Toshi Sep 01, 2014 14:29:59	Polaris wrote:
#18 Captain_Kobold Sep 01, 2014 14:45:42	Toshi wrote:
#19 Mirtek Sep 01, 2014 16:16:49	Toshi wrote:
#20 FFSAA Sep 01, 2014 16:24:58	Toshi wrote:
#21 Toshi Sep 01, 2014 16:43:09	Maybe Iron Man, but that's not how fantasy martial arts movies play out.
#22 FFSAA Sep 01, 2014 17:21:54	Toshi wrote:
#23 Nivek_Loneshadow Sep 01, 2014 17:30:34	souldoubt wrote:
#24 ankiyavon Sep 01, 2014 17:33:28	Nivek_Loneshadow wrote:
#25 animeus Sep 01, 2014 18:17:45	Toshi wrote:
#26 souldoubt Sep 01, 2014 19:30:04	Nivek_Loneshadow wrote:
#27 Noon Sep 01, 2014 21:00:20	Polaris wrote:
#28 Veleria Sep 02, 2014 0:51:25	Simple house rule: replace wisdom in Unarmored defense with proficiency bonus.  The monk isn't lacking but if it breaks you enjoyment of the game fix it. Either way you end up almost identical with a difference of 1 ac more but may loose out if stat items make it into the game that boost wis.
(Reply to #3) demon_idol	Polaris wrote:
#30 Polaris Sep 02, 2014 7:51:53	demon_idol wrote:
#31 Chaosmancer Sep 02, 2014 12:10:36	I think monk defenses are pretty awesome.   Ttheir AC is equivalent to the rest of the party and their attacks stats are their defense stats   Spending Ki to dodge as bonus action is awesome (dodge gives enemies you can see disadvantage on attacks), and I think they are the only class that can dodge as a bonus action meaning they can attack and defend at the same time.   They eventually get proficiency with all saving throws   Scaling AC would only mean they get better defenses than every other class period, unless you took away their unarmored defenses.
#32 1eejit Sep 02, 2014 12:23:14	If you really want to buff their AC but not break their scaling change it to 11+dex+wis instead of 10.
#33 Mirtek Sep 02, 2014 12:34:51	Toshi wrote:
#34 CVB Sep 02, 2014 13:46:11	Welcome to AC as a Dodge Mechanic.  Which no matter how nicely you word it that's what it is.  You either HIt or Miss, and the only way it scales is if it's 'heavier' and after that, magical.
(Reply to #33) Chaosmancer	Mirtek wrote:
#36 Mirtek Sep 03, 2014 12:50:30	Chaosmancer wrote:
(Reply to #36) Chaosmancer	Mirtek wrote:
#38 Zyph Sep 03, 2014 21:04:05	Toshi wrote:
#39 Toshi Sep 03, 2014 21:53:32	What I have learned in this thread is that there are people who have a vision of an epic fantasy monk, and those who don't.  Those who do, and play a monk often (38 years for me) have a grand view of the master monk.  The monk character at the highest level nearly transends mortality.  His training allows maneuvers that the common world simply wouldn't believe unless they saw it. Those who don't think of a fantasy grand master monk like this, will have a hard time understanding our reasoning.   On a positive, many of you have pointed out features that might make up for the AC.  Though not exactly AC, dodging, disengage, dash and other features with focus on wisdom and dexterity DO improve the monk's "hitability" notably.  Thanks for your input.
#40 Siderealmotion Sep 03, 2014 23:37:12	Don't forget that monks, more than anyone else (even rogues!), have the ability to hit and fade.  Human variant monks can start doing this from level 1 using the mobility feat.  Being so fast that you simply aren't there by the time the enemy counterattacks is very thematic for monks, imho.  Once you hit a certain point, you don't need to as much, but it's still a bread and butter tactic for the class.
#41 Veleria Sep 04, 2014 0:04:52	compare ac to a fighter without a shield. in order to get equal ac the fighter has to give up using a second weapon or a two hander. the monk can use whatever they want.   These comparisons always compare one class at it's strongest  verses one class at it's weakest. tis is why white room arguments are flawed and are basically poor straw man attempts.
#42 Xeviat-DM Sep 04, 2014 1:29:49	A 22 AC barbarian, if they start with 16 Con and Dex, has to give up 4 of their ability boosts getting 20 Con and Dex. Their rage bonus damage only works on strength based attacks, no? You aren't going to see it very often until we get a Whirling Berserker build who uses finesse weapons.
#43 Thoughts_My_Aim Sep 04, 2014 5:57:53	They also have to give up the damage from using a two-handed weapon, which is kind of *huge* for a Barbarian.   And, as others have pointed out, a Monk *also* gets the option to sacrifice offense for defence by using Dodge as a free action. Which, I would argue, is *way* better than +2 AC.
#44 Mirtek Sep 04, 2014 12:47:09	Toshi wrote:
#45 FFSAA Sep 04, 2014 13:57:32	Xeviat-DM wrote:
(Reply to #44) Chaosmancer	Mirtek wrote:
(Reply to #44) Toshi	Mirtek wrote:
#48 Slyck314 Sep 05, 2014 8:44:23	The way I see it is, you are displeased with Bounded Accuracy. You want your 20th level characters to be beyond the ken of mere mortals and the idea that a 1st level fighter could lay a decent crit on your monk bothers you. Well I'm afraid you're just going to have to get used to that one as its one of the foundational conceits of 5th ed.
#49 DemoMonkey Sep 05, 2014 9:12:45	I really like the idea of altering "Unarmoured Defense" both for the monk and the barbarian to add EITHER the secondary stat (WIS for Monks, CON for Barbarians) OR the proficiency bonus. It opens up some interesting options and reduces the MAD for those two classes.
(Reply to #48) Toshi	Slyck314 wrote:
#51 ankiyavon Sep 05, 2014 9:42:25	Toshi wrote:
(Reply to #51) Toshi	ankiyavon wrote:
#53 Toshi Sep 05, 2014 11:22:12	DemoMonkey wrote:
#54 Mirtek Sep 05, 2014 11:30:44	Chaosmancer wrote:
#55 Thoughts_My_Aim Sep 05, 2014 12:19:18	Mirtek wrote:
(Reply to #54) Chaosmancer	Mirtek wrote:
#57 Thoughts_My_Aim Sep 05, 2014 12:29:13	Chaosmancer wrote:
#58 WhiteHarness Sep 05, 2014 14:16:56	I don't think the point of playing a monk is to have sky-high Armor Class.  Leave that to the classes that wear actual armor.   I guess when I think "20th-level monk" (on the rare occasions I permit the use of the class in my games; I've always felt that it was out of place in D&D), I don't automatically think "This guys should be able to do all the crazy stuff they do in Dragonball Z or whatever."   At the end of the day, the asian-style monk--even a 20th level monk--is just an unarmed and unarmored guy, and that should never, ever be represented as being better in a combat situations than an trained, armed and fully-armored knight.
#59 ChrisCarlson Sep 05, 2014 14:21:09	Toshi wrote:
#60 Captain_Kobold Sep 05, 2014 14:41:28	Mirtek wrote:
#61 Captain_Kobold Sep 05, 2014 14:51:40	WhiteHarness wrote:
#62 FFSAA Sep 05, 2014 15:03:05	Toshi wrote:
#63 Brock_Landers Sep 05, 2014 15:49:46	Toshi wrote:
#64 Brock_Landers Sep 05, 2014 15:51:10	Captain_Kobold wrote:
#65 Toshi Sep 06, 2014 14:56:07	I appreciate posts like this: WhiteHarness wrote:
#66 Thoughts_My_Aim Sep 06, 2014 15:02:48	Toshi wrote:
(Reply to #66) Toshi	Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
#68 Thoughts_My_Aim Sep 06, 2014 15:46:34	Toshi wrote:
#69 Toshi Sep 06, 2014 16:05:01	Thoughts_My_Aim wrote:
#70 Thoughts_My_Aim Sep 06, 2014 16:05:55	Toshi wrote:
#71 Toshi Sep 06, 2014 16:19:00	I submitted the post before I finished my thought.  You must have posted while I was editting.
#72 MechaPilot Sep 06, 2014 18:36:46	DemoMonkey wrote:
(Reply to #49) arnwolf666	Zyph wrote:
#74 arnwolf666 Sep 07, 2014 5:09:57	I do alot of combat in urban situations where armor is inappropriate for the PCs.  I think DMs should keep in mind that in many urban situations armor may be inappropriate.  Not all situations, but some.