Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Ramzour Dec 21, 2014 18:10:40	Some of the most heated debates here often cite realism as an argument. There's not enough of it, apparently. But at the same time.....elven wizards. Can those things co-exist? Where do you draw the line? Where does realism fit in to your games?   What edition is that....   Ooo, a Crown Royal dice bag. Solid choice.   That is one beefy looking wand. Does it even work?   Is that a dog gate or a child gate? Or both?   Oh god, just noticed the ears.   DISCUSS.   (found this online today. gave me a chuckle.)
#2 Chiisai_Usagi Dec 21, 2014 18:32:52	The incredibly vast majority of people who talk about realism mean realism in standard, non-magical physics.  Obviously magic, by definition, is the one force that can supercede otherwise consistent 'realism' laws.   It doesn't mean they get it right, of course; more often than not, they mean what they consider 'realistic' or (more appropriately) 'humanly possible' and that, of course, depends on one's point of view (and often undercuts what truly is humanly possible).  I'm also pretty reasonably convinced you're aware of all this and realize that obviously no one - and I mean that literally, absolutely NO ONE - is talking about how there can't be elven wizards (or even elves) in their game because when they mean 'realism' they mean "A specific year in the past on the planet Earth, with all inherent, reserved, implied, and delegated presumptions thereof preserved".
#3 CCS Dec 21, 2014 18:39:13	I've always equated "realism" in these games with comic book & action movie realism.
#4 DaveDash Dec 21, 2014 18:59:49	Its not so much realism, its more the suspension of disbelief.
#5 MechaPilot Dec 21, 2014 19:02:11	@OP: I think that's a short sword, not a wand (it looks like it has a crossguard).  Although, it could be a sausage.  Maybe it's both.  Maybe it's his +1 Meat Sword of Skewering.
#6 iserith Dec 21, 2014 19:16:57	I find this sort of concern depends on what we've agreed to as far as genre goes. "What kind of D&D are we playing this campaign?" Sometimes it will be whimsical and fairy tale like without much concern for realism. Other times it will be gritty as a halfling's toejam. Realism can often run into the realm of the mundane though and I'm not up for that so it's something I try to avoid. I'm not particularly interested in granular mechanics that model reality either.
(Reply to #2) Lathrin	Chiisai_Usagi wrote:
#8 AaronOfBarbaria Dec 21, 2014 19:33:03	Ramzour wrote:
#9 Handon_Kast Dec 21, 2014 19:36:07	Can't belive I have to post this again, but Argumentum ad fireballum.   For those of you who don't feel like reading the entire post, here is one of the most relevant bits:   There’s nearly always someone who thinks himself witty and blurts out a specious little gem along the lines of “there’s no point to be worried about realism in a game where there is magic”. There are variations, but that’s what it always boils down to. Add condescension for flavour. ... In fact, it is. There’s even a fancy Latin term for it, non sequitur. It’s an argument where the conclusion does not logically follow from its premise – generally, any logical fallacy. I dub this specific logical fallacy argumentum ad fireballum, after its most common form: “There’s no point in arguing for realism when there are wizards lobbing fireballs.”
#10 Lady_Auralla Dec 21, 2014 20:31:54	Too often I have seen realism  used as method of keeping martial types in their place which is shut up already and carry the Wizards golf bag. It has been used also to hide lazy design Magic Users Do anything at high levels whilst Fighters can just hit something again. Many put it as the Fighter can't have nice things argument.
#11 Shasarak Dec 21, 2014 21:28:30	I only wish martial types would keep in their place.
#12 Chiisai_Usagi Dec 21, 2014 22:35:37	Shasarak wrote:
#13 Mecheon Dec 21, 2014 23:20:19	Shasarak wrote:
#14 Nesian42Ryukaiel Dec 21, 2014 23:35:08	Mecheon wrote:
#15 Bluenose Dec 22, 2014 2:30:04	Lady_Auralla wrote:
#16 Lady_Auralla Dec 22, 2014 2:56:08	I am not looking for more power for martial types but instead more agency more than just doing damage. The Battlemaster is a half assed attempt at this that largely suffers from having to share the same chasis as the Champion. To really express its full potential the Battlemaster needs a chasis (class) designed to handle a more advanced structure.
#17 Uchawi Dec 22, 2014 3:34:53	It is really hard to pin down realism in a fantasy game, so I would strive towards consistency of mechanics. And that means you don't allow magic to do anything, and then limit martial ability or skills to another standard. Once you start applying different standards, then all the other arguments to set in, whether it is hit points, class ability, and so on.
#18 edwin_su Dec 22, 2014 5:08:39	Uchawi wrote:
#19 sleypy Dec 22, 2014 5:11:21	Bluenose wrote:
(Reply to #37) dmgorgon	Lemurion wrote:
#43 ChrisCarlson Dec 22, 2014 15:35:05	True. One does not play Exalted of Feng Shui for their gritty, realistic portrayals of their respective genres.
#44 sleypy Dec 22, 2014 17:25:26	Orethalion wrote:
#82 Imaculata Dec 24, 2014 13:28:27	Ramzour wrote:
#83 Orethalion Dec 24, 2014 13:38:10	Imaculata wrote:
#84 Ramzour Dec 25, 2014 2:11:37	Orethalion wrote:
#85 Ramzour Dec 25, 2014 2:47:48	Rhenny wrote:
(Reply to #85) Rhenny	Ramzour wrote:
#87 Orethalion Dec 25, 2014 8:53:24	Ramzour wrote:
#88 Ramzour Dec 25, 2014 14:23:26	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #41) Handon_Kast	awaken_D_M_golem wrote:
#90 Chiisai_Usagi Dec 25, 2014 15:22:51	durntaur wrote:
#91 Orethalion Dec 25, 2014 15:38:33	Ramzour wrote:
#92 Ganymede425 Dec 25, 2014 16:56:54	Ramzour wrote:
(Reply to #84) arnwolf666	Ramzour wrote:
#94 Orethalion Dec 25, 2014 21:58:13	arnwolf666 wrote:
#95 Elfcrusher Dec 26, 2014 2:46:13	The_White_Sorcerer wrote:
#96 Ramzour Dec 26, 2014 4:47:38	Orethalion wrote:
#97 Handon_Kast Dec 26, 2014 4:42:45	Elfcrusher wrote:
#98 Ramzour Dec 26, 2014 4:41:44	arnwolf666 wrote:
#99 Ramzour Dec 26, 2014 4:47:08	Handon_Kast wrote:
#100 Handon_Kast Dec 26, 2014 4:50:37	Ramzour wrote:
#101 Gnarl Dec 26, 2014 4:55:54	Orethalion wrote:
#102 sleypy Dec 26, 2014 5:52:42	The thing I can't grok is that someone will say that a game mechanic is unrealistic, but another game mechanic is realistic. I just can't ever grasp how it is meaningfully different to have a saving throw vs a ability check if they after similar percentage chances to succeed. I don't mind the two mechanics and in general it helps resolve some situation faster, but I just don't get how in any situation one is "more realistic" can be attach to the dice mechanics.
(Reply to #121) DungeonKrusher	ankiyavon wrote:
#123 ankiyavon Dec 26, 2014 13:29:40	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #123) DungeonKrusher	ankiyavon wrote:
#125 Ramzour Dec 26, 2014 13:40:24	ankiyavon wrote:
#126 Ramzour Dec 26, 2014 13:41:58	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#127 ankiyavon Dec 26, 2014 14:04:09	Ramzour wrote:
#128 sleypy Dec 26, 2014 14:26:53	Rhenny wrote:
(Reply to #160) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #159) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
#164 Handon_Kast Dec 27, 2014 9:21:47	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#165 Handon_Kast Dec 27, 2014 9:28:54	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#166 Gnarl Dec 27, 2014 9:29:12	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#167 Orethalion Dec 27, 2014 10:09:39	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #164) DungeonKrusher	Handon_Kast wrote:
(Reply to #165) DungeonKrusher	Handon_Kast wrote:
(Reply to #167) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
#171 Ramzour Dec 27, 2014 10:39:32	Handon_Kast wrote:
(Reply to #168) Handon_Kast	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#173 Handon_Kast Dec 27, 2014 10:50:15	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#174 Handon_Kast Dec 27, 2014 11:04:17	Ramzour wrote:
#175 arderkrag Dec 27, 2014 11:27:44	To me, realism ends where the rules begin. My favorite example is magical fire burning underwater. If the rules don't specifically say that being underwater stops burning hands/fireball/etc., then they go off without a hitch. Real world physics end where the rules begin.
#176 Ramzour Dec 27, 2014 11:38:34	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#177 Ramzour Dec 27, 2014 11:36:47	Handon_Kast wrote:
#178 Handon_Kast Dec 27, 2014 11:53:42	Ramzour wrote:
#179 Ramzour Dec 27, 2014 11:59:01	arderkrag wrote:
#180 Ramzour Dec 27, 2014 12:10:56	Handon_Kast wrote:
#181 Handon_Kast Dec 27, 2014 14:58:28	It happens. No harm done.   Oh wait...crap...we are being reasonable with each other. Internet law says this can't happen!   Um, um....Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of Elderberries!
#182 Gatt Dec 27, 2014 21:21:03	Handon_Kast wrote:
#183 Ramzour Dec 28, 2014 1:25:33	Handon_Kast wrote:
#184 Ramzour Dec 28, 2014 1:28:49	Gatt wrote:
#185 Shasarak Dec 28, 2014 12:13:45	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#186 Chiisai_Usagi Dec 28, 2014 13:42:18	Shasarak wrote:
#187 Rhenny Dec 28, 2014 17:09:31	Here's an annecdote to add to the thread in support of "willing suspension of disbelief."    I had the pleasure of DMing a 3.5e campaign online with actual NASA scientists. The campaign ran for over 2 years (playing every 2 weeks or so).   At one point there were 6 of them in the party.  I was so fearful designing sessions because I thought they'd pick apart the unrealistic nature of my games.   The exact opposite was true.  They really immersed themselves into the world and were completely willing to accept what happened as fantasy.  Of course, I tried to keep most things in the game internally consistent, but I did a lot of crazy things too (i.e, one portion of the campaign took the party to a different area completely that was more like a post-apocalyptic earth complete with robots, vehicles and at least 1 hand gun).   The game works best when players can suspend their disbelief, which is also the best way to read fiction too.
#188 Orethalion Dec 28, 2014 17:22:30	Rhenny wrote:
(Reply to #188) Rhenny	Orethalion wrote:
#190 Ramzour Dec 29, 2014 1:18:57	Rhenny wrote:
#191 Ramzour Dec 29, 2014 1:19:47	Chiisai_Usagi wrote:
#192 sleypy Dec 29, 2014 5:30:59	Ramzour wrote:
(Reply to #193) Uchawi	dmgorgon wrote:
#203 Orethalion Dec 29, 2014 15:17:50	Uchawi wrote:
#204 Uchawi Dec 29, 2014 15:26:13	The connection to magic is your preference based on your own bias. If the rules state something can happen, then it happens, until something is further explained, or the rule is changed via errata. But I will agree that stark differences or inconsistencies in the rules would even affect my own bias. Even if magic influencing everything. We all have limits.
#205 dmgorgon Dec 29, 2014 15:45:40	Bloodscythe wrote:
#206 dmgorgon Dec 29, 2014 15:57:21	Uchawi wrote:
(Reply to #198) Reius	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#208 Orethalion Dec 29, 2014 16:33:27	Reius wrote:
(Reply to #205) Bloodscythe	dmgorgon wrote:
(Reply to #207) DungeonKrusher	Reius wrote:
(Reply to #209) DungeonKrusher	Bloodscythe wrote:
#212 Reius Dec 29, 2014 17:39:54	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #211) Bloodscythe	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#214 Orethalion Dec 29, 2014 18:19:31	Reius wrote:
#215 Elfcrusher Dec 29, 2014 21:45:14	MechaPilot wrote:
#216 Rastapopoulos Dec 29, 2014 23:50:42	dmgorgon wrote:
#217 Ramzour Dec 30, 2014 0:46:07	dmgorgon wrote:
#218 Ramzour Dec 30, 2014 0:52:48	ChrisCarlson wrote:
#219 Ramzour Dec 30, 2014 0:58:20	dmgorgon wrote:
#220 Ramzour Dec 30, 2014 1:00:21	Bloodscythe wrote:
#221 Ramzour Dec 30, 2014 1:11:50	Reius wrote:
#222 Ramzour Dec 30, 2014 1:17:16	Elfcrusher wrote:
#223 Ramzour Dec 30, 2014 1:53:34	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#224 Shakiko Dec 30, 2014 2:47:39	Ramzour wrote:
(Reply to #220) Bloodscythe	Ramzour wrote:
(Reply to #218) Bloodscythe	Ramzour wrote:
#227 ChrisCarlson Dec 30, 2014 7:07:51	See? The various replies to my dragon topic ties in nicely to my larger point.   "Reality" is different for each person. Or, at least, one's verisimilitude and strength of suspension of disbelief. Perhaps, willingness to accept strangeness? We all have a different meter that pegs at different redlines to different elements of fantasy or whathaveyou. One man's logical extension of reality is another man's absurdity.   That's what it was about that ol' dragon flight debate that reminded me of this thread...
#228 sleypy Dec 30, 2014 7:14:00	Bloodscythe wrote:
(Reply to #241) DungeonKrusher	ChrisCarlson wrote:
#243 Orethalion Dec 30, 2014 10:49:16	ChrisCarlson wrote:
(Reply to #241) Bloodscythe	ChrisCarlson wrote:
#245 Lady_Auralla Dec 30, 2014 16:06:47	If a man says something and there is no woman present to hear him is he still wrong?
#246 OoftaMeg Dec 30, 2014 16:13:12	If a tree falls on a mime in a forest, does anyone care?
#247 Orethalion Dec 30, 2014 16:17:18	Lady_Auralla wrote:
#248 Shasarak Dec 30, 2014 18:59:23	Lady_Auralla wrote:
#249 Orethalion Dec 30, 2014 19:10:57	Shasarak wrote:
#250 dmgorgon Dec 30, 2014 19:28:58	Ramzour wrote:
(Reply to #250) DungeonKrusher	dmgorgon wrote:
#252 dmgorgon Dec 30, 2014 19:57:17	Rastapopoulos wrote:
#253 MechaPilot Dec 30, 2014 20:02:57	Elfcrusher wrote:
#254 MechaPilot Dec 30, 2014 20:12:26	Rastapopoulos wrote:
(Reply to #254) Bloodscythe	MechaPilot wrote:
#256 dmgorgon Dec 31, 2014 7:41:25	The 2e Vikings handbook made it clear that Vikings did not have horns on their helms.
#257 ChrisCarlson Dec 31, 2014 8:13:25	"Reality leaves a lot to the imagination." - John Lennon
#258 Shakiko Dec 31, 2014 19:37:21	dmgorgon wrote:
#259 Brock_Landers Dec 31, 2014 22:59:38	Shakiko wrote:
#260 Ramzour Jan 01, 2015 1:52:40	dmgorgon wrote:
#261 Ramzour Jan 01, 2015 2:07:05	Bloodscythe wrote:
#262 Ramzour Jan 01, 2015 2:08:35	Shakiko wrote:
#263 Ramzour Jan 01, 2015 2:11:14	Bloodscythe wrote:
#264 Ramzour Jan 01, 2015 2:21:05	Brock_Landers wrote:
#265 Brock_Landers Jan 01, 2015 4:50:26	Ramzour wrote:
#266 Orethalion Jan 01, 2015 5:17:16	Ramzour wrote:
#267 Ramzour Jan 01, 2015 5:33:58	Orethalion wrote:
#268 Ramzour Jan 01, 2015 5:36:21	Brock_Landers wrote:
#269 Orethalion Jan 01, 2015 5:53:48	Ramzour wrote:
#270 draegn Jan 01, 2015 8:06:09	Ramzour wrote:
#271 Gatt Jan 01, 2015 9:02:36	dmgorgon wrote:
#272 Brock_Landers Jan 01, 2015 9:06:47	Ramzour wrote:
#273 Brock_Landers Jan 01, 2015 9:12:01	Ramzour wrote:
(Reply to #260) DungeonKrusher	Ramzour wrote:
(Reply to #266) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
#276 Brock_Landers Jan 01, 2015 10:31:10	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #270) DungeonKrusher	draegn wrote:
#278 ankiyavon Jan 01, 2015 12:32:09	Ramzour wrote:
#279 Ramzour Jan 01, 2015 12:54:09	Orethalion wrote:
#280 Ramzour Jan 01, 2015 12:57:40	draegn wrote:
#281 Ramzour Jan 01, 2015 13:05:57	Brock_Landers wrote:
#282 Ramzour Jan 01, 2015 13:13:39	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#283 Ramzour Jan 01, 2015 13:25:27	ankiyavon wrote:
#284 ankiyavon Jan 01, 2015 13:35:07	Ramzour wrote:
#285 ChrisCarlson Jan 01, 2015 13:47:33	ankiyavon wrote:
#286 ankiyavon Jan 01, 2015 13:52:05	ChrisCarlson wrote:
#287 admcewen Jan 01, 2015 13:55:42	"UNLURK" I'm confused does this mean all the Ravenloft games we played weren't D&D as Ravenloft has no Dragons?
#288 Orethalion Jan 01, 2015 14:12:36	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #287) OoftaMeg	admcewen wrote:
#290 Ramzour Jan 01, 2015 14:41:08	ankiyavon wrote:
#291 Ramzour Jan 01, 2015 14:53:16	admcewen wrote:
#292 Ramzour Jan 01, 2015 15:01:16	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #288) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #278) DungeonKrusher	ankiyavon wrote:
(Reply to #279) DungeonKrusher	Ramzour wrote:
(Reply to #282) DungeonKrusher	Ramzour wrote:
(Reply to #292) DungeonKrusher	Ramzour wrote:
#298 Orethalion Jan 01, 2015 16:53:54	Ramzour wrote:
#299 Orethalion Jan 01, 2015 16:56:42	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#300 dmgorgon Jan 01, 2015 18:06:52	admcewen wrote:
#301 dmgorgon Jan 01, 2015 18:18:55	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #299) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #301) DungeonKrusher	dmgorgon wrote:
#304 Orethalion Jan 01, 2015 18:42:46	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#305 Orethalion Jan 01, 2015 18:43:35	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #304) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #305) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
#308 Orethalion Jan 01, 2015 19:58:20	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #291) admcewen	Ramzour wrote:
#310 Ramzour Jan 02, 2015 0:50:47	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#311 Ramzour Jan 02, 2015 0:57:18	admcewen wrote:
#312 Ramzour Jan 02, 2015 0:59:11	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#313 Ramzour Jan 02, 2015 1:01:40	Orethalion wrote:
#314 Ramzour Jan 02, 2015 1:04:11	dmgorgon wrote:
#315 Ramzour Jan 02, 2015 1:14:43	dmgorgon wrote:
#316 Ramzour Jan 02, 2015 1:34:39	Orethalion wrote:
#317 Ramzour Jan 02, 2015 1:37:46	Orethalion wrote:
#318 Brock_Landers Jan 02, 2015 1:46:58	Dragons & Dungeons & Magic are not integral for D&D, as evident from officially supported products.
#319 Ramzour Jan 02, 2015 4:10:17	Brock_Landers wrote:
#320 Orethalion Jan 02, 2015 7:49:33	Ramzour wrote:
#321 Orethalion Jan 02, 2015 7:51:07	Ramzour wrote:
#322 Orethalion Jan 02, 2015 7:54:46	Ramzour wrote:
#323 SleepsInTraffic Jan 02, 2015 8:35:44	Orethalion wrote:
#324 Ramzour Jan 02, 2015 8:56:00	Orethalion wrote:
#325 Ramzour Jan 02, 2015 9:01:57	Orethalion wrote:
#326 Orethalion Jan 02, 2015 9:13:02	SleepsInTraffic wrote:
#327 Orethalion Jan 02, 2015 9:20:31	Ramzour wrote:
#328 Orethalion Jan 02, 2015 9:24:11	Ramzour wrote:
#329 admcewen Jan 02, 2015 9:42:36	I hope this helps everyone so the conversation can move on. The series of books for 2nd Edition in Green are called " Historical Reference" Link: http://www.dndclassics.com/product/110324/HR1HR7-Historical-Reference-Series-2e-BUNDLE There was also the Ravenloft "Masque of the Red death" as well which is set in Victorian times Link: http://www.dndclassics.com/product/127234/Masque-of-the-Red-Death-and-Other-Tales-2e Most of these do not have dragons in them at all.
#330 dmgorgon Jan 02, 2015 10:28:23	Ramzour wrote:
(Reply to #308) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
#332 dmgorgon Jan 02, 2015 10:44:03	Ramzour wrote:
#333 dmgorgon Jan 02, 2015 10:47:07	admcewen wrote:
(Reply to #309) DungeonKrusher	admcewen wrote:
#335 OoftaMeg Jan 02, 2015 10:54:57	Ummm ... how is it relevant to the original topic whether or not dragons exist in a particular campaign setting?
(Reply to #310) DungeonKrusher	Ramzour wrote:
(Reply to #316) DungeonKrusher	Ramzour wrote:
#338 Orethalion Jan 02, 2015 11:53:48	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#339 Orethalion Jan 02, 2015 11:57:09	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #320) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #330) DungeonKrusher	dmgorgon wrote:
(Reply to #333) DungeonKrusher	dmgorgon wrote:
(Reply to #338) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
#344 Orethalion Jan 02, 2015 14:45:58	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #344) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
#346 dmgorgon Jan 02, 2015 16:22:53	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#347 draegn Jan 02, 2015 15:36:38	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #346) DungeonKrusher	dmgorgon wrote:
(Reply to #347) DungeonKrusher	draegn wrote:
#350 cbwjm Jan 02, 2015 16:39:50	I think that if you were planning on removing magic from D&D then you would need an option to heal during combat (similar to the fighter's heroic surge or 4e's second wind) otherwise combat would likely be far more deadly. I don't think it would be too difficult to remove it as long as there are a handful of options that become available to keep the group up and running.
(Reply to #350) DungeonKrusher	cbwjm wrote:
#352 Shasarak Jan 02, 2015 17:26:35	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #352) DungeonKrusher	Shasarak wrote:
#354 draegn Jan 02, 2015 20:09:31	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #344) grendel111111	Orethalion wrote:
#356 Brock_Landers Jan 02, 2015 23:16:07	Ramzour wrote:
#357 Orethalion Jan 03, 2015 6:23:46	grendel111111 wrote:
(Reply to #357) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
#359 Orethalion Jan 03, 2015 16:35:46	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #320) Reius	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #333) Reius	dmgorgon wrote:
#362 Reius Jan 03, 2015 17:30:08	I'm too lazy to read the whole thread before posting responses, so it turns out that I was just repeating what DungeonKrusher had already said. Damn you DK!
(Reply to #331) Reius	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#364 dmgorgon Jan 03, 2015 18:07:37	Orethalion wrote:
#365 Orethalion Jan 03, 2015 18:24:40	Reius wrote:
#366 draegn Jan 03, 2015 18:26:57	Reius wrote:
#367 grendel111111 Jan 03, 2015 18:45:06	Yes it does include magic. In a chapter called magic, one of several chapters. It's for a "mythic" version of the setting. You can choose not to use the magic just by saying "it's an historical setting, we are not using the magic chapter".
(Reply to #366) Reius	draegn wrote:
(Reply to #365) Reius	Orethalion wrote:
#370 Orethalion Jan 03, 2015 19:22:46	Reius wrote:
(Reply to #359) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #360) DungeonKrusher	Reius wrote:
(Reply to #363) DungeonKrusher	Reius wrote:
#374 Orethalion Jan 04, 2015 11:44:49	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#375 Orethalion Jan 04, 2015 11:46:31	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #374) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
#377 Shasarak Jan 04, 2015 15:46:07	Reius wrote:
#378 Orethalion Jan 04, 2015 15:58:58	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #378) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
#380 Orethalion Jan 04, 2015 16:55:27	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #380) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
#382 Orethalion Jan 04, 2015 19:30:57	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #372) grendel111111	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#384 Caliburn Jan 05, 2015 0:55:24	I go for the gritty realism end of the action movie genre.   I'm an ex-soldier, so I know that 'real-realism' and four combat encounters a day would make for short games...   I also have an ex-soldier in my group - so the grittiness has to ring true... enough... for us all to suspend our disbelief.   I think I pull it off well enough.   One thing I would say however - regardless of edition (except 4th, which suited not-a-one of my group, or me...) the realism of magic vs. martial has never been a point for significant complaint.   5th edition has succeeded I would say, in putting any questions in that regard to bed for good.   Of equivalent level, a Fighter can nova down a Wizard in one round, and a Wizard can neatralise a Fighter in one round should it come to it, it all depend on who gets the drop.   What more balance do you need really?
(Reply to #382) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
#386 Orethalion Jan 05, 2015 10:27:47	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#387 Brock_Landers Jan 05, 2015 10:52:44	grendel111111 wrote:
(Reply to #386) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
#389 Orethalion Jan 05, 2015 12:05:57	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#390 Brock_Landers Jan 05, 2015 12:07:30	Again, a confusion between "house-rule" and "home-brew", completely different.
#391 Orethalion Jan 05, 2015 12:09:47	Brock_Landers wrote:
#392 Brock_Landers Jan 05, 2015 12:28:32	Orethalion wrote:
#393 Orethalion Jan 05, 2015 12:23:13	Brock_Landers wrote:
#394 Brock_Landers Jan 05, 2015 12:29:15	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #390) DungeonKrusher	Brock_Landers wrote:
#396 Brock_Landers Jan 05, 2015 12:38:02	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #396) DungeonKrusher	Brock_Landers wrote:
#398 Brock_Landers Jan 05, 2015 13:22:22	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #398) DungeonKrusher	Brock_Landers wrote:
#400 Orethalion Jan 05, 2015 13:38:42	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#401 Ramzour Jan 06, 2015 3:54:50	dmgorgon wrote:
#402 Ramzour Jan 06, 2015 3:58:59	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#403 Ramzour Jan 06, 2015 4:05:39	Caliburn wrote:
#404 Orethalion Jan 06, 2015 9:33:06	Ramzour wrote:
#405 Brock_Landers Jan 06, 2015 10:14:31	Ramzour wrote:
#406 Orethalion Jan 06, 2015 10:23:33	Brock_Landers wrote:
#407 Brock_Landers Jan 06, 2015 10:25:47	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #407) ELGamer	I also think that which parts of the game matter from a realism perspective will differ widely among players and groups, and what specific things trigger an averse reaction will as well.   Our particular group seems to have little trouble accepting most of the abstracted realism/suspension of disbelief items, but stumble on a few things which might never raise the slightest eyebrow among most other players. We try to address those as best we can to prevent the moments of "well, that's crazy..." occuring during a session.    An example would be the movement rates on page 182 of the PH. Several of us in our group are hikers and campers, and have put in many trail miles over the years. In modern day terms, the movement rates listed are simply crazy. A normal rate of speed in open easy terrain is given as 24 miles per day, with 18 being slow and 30 being fast. This just can't work for us, because we know that in our own frame of reference only the very fittest of individuals carrying virtually nothing but the clothes on their back and some water could consistently keep up that kind of pace. Whatever arguments we would make (elves and dwarves have better stamina, these people don't sit behind desks all day like us, etc) can't get us past the fact that this is an item (for us) that would break the willing suspension of disbelief. Our dwarven cleric wearing chainmail and a helmet, carrrying a shield and weapons plus other gear, food, water, etc, can't exist in a sentence such as "...about 22 miles into your day's walk, you encounter..." Especially if he is traveling with a party who likely have some non-spectacular constitutions mixed in.   So we adjust, and it's no big deal. In our campaign, things on foot move perhaps half what the PH says in IDEAL conditions. It works for us, because it allows the idea of movement at a macro level to NOT break the suspension of disbelief. Having made the modication to suit our needs, we then be consistent, which I think is key. For us, this grounds our fantasy in enough of a veneer of realism that it all works together nicely.
#409 Ramzour Jan 07, 2015 0:58:36	Orethalion wrote:
#410 Ramzour Jan 07, 2015 1:06:11	ELGamer wrote:
#411 Orethalion Jan 07, 2015 9:09:15	Ramzour wrote:
#412 DungeonKrusher Jan 13, 2015 23:43:29	So the funniest thing:   I was reading the DMG, and right there on page 9 is a statement about what the game's "Core Assumptions", one of them being The World is Magical. And then, as I was flipping through the PHB, I noticed on page 8 a similar statement.   How on Earth did a conversation about the validity of a magicless game continue for so long when it's so VERY obviously spelled out at the beginning of two of the main core books -- not to mention laced throughout the third?    Very odd.    We are a very odd community.
(Reply to #412) grendel111111	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #412) 1eejit	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#415 Orethalion Jan 14, 2015 6:08:18	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#416 DungeonKrusher Jan 14, 2015 9:45:16	WHHHOOOAAA... simmer down! We already went through all of that! I just thought it was funny that two core books state from the very beginning that magic is assumed to be in the world, and yet we squibble squabble like Twi-hards about it. I didn't even make a statement beyond "Hey. Funny. Look at that part. How did I ever miss that?" and got three comments about what I missed and how I'm wrong. I dunno... I just think that's funny in a disheartening, soul-searing way.   ;o)   Yes, you can obviously add, subtract, or modify anything in the game. I am starting to teach a newbie the game, and we started from Page One, and I started laughing when I read that.
#417 Ramzour Jan 17, 2015 7:51:00	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #18) JohnLynch	edwin_su wrote:
#419 admcewen Jan 18, 2015 4:11:32	Ramzour wrote:
#420 Ramzour Jan 18, 2015 4:45:41	admcewen wrote:
#421 Ramzour Jan 18, 2015 4:49:11	JohnLynch wrote:
#422 Brock_Landers Jan 18, 2015 4:53:10	Ramzour wrote:
#423 admcewen Jan 18, 2015 5:19:58	Ramzour wrote:
(Reply to #83) JohnLynch	Orethalion wrote:
#425 Devils-Advocate Jan 18, 2015 11:22:09	Ramzour wrote:
(Reply to #422) Reius	Brock_Landers wrote:
#427 Orethalion Jan 18, 2015 16:24:07	Ramzour wrote:
#428 Orethalion Jan 18, 2015 16:26:00	JohnLynch wrote:
#429 JohnLynch Jan 18, 2015 20:29:25	Orethalion wrote:
#430 JohnLynch Jan 18, 2015 20:52:02	As for the realism issue of farmers or fishermen being able to do this, there is some basis in reality. Many people believe that a carpenter was able to turn water into wine in the real world. Physics does not support this but these people believe that a god allowed the carpenter to do it despite receiving no formal training as a priest. If a fantasy setting says "gods grant all farmers the ability to jump the moon and all fishermen to summon fish from the sea" there is in fact a real world basis (at least as believed by 23% of the world's population) for this to happen.
#431 Vahnyu Jan 18, 2015 21:28:45	Hehe, to be fair, you could argue that said carpenter had many levels in Oracle (Or whatever you wanna call the Sorcerer equivalent to a Cleric's Wizard), and further, said carpenter had many adventures where he used his abilities to help others, accruing tons of XP in the process. And that's not going into his Demi-God template...
#432 Orethalion Jan 18, 2015 21:55:00	JohnLynch wrote:
#433 Orethalion Jan 18, 2015 21:57:28	JohnLynch wrote:
#434 JohnLynch Jan 18, 2015 23:23:00	Orethalion wrote:
#435 Ramzour Jan 19, 2015 2:46:13	Brock_Landers wrote:
#436 Ramzour Jan 19, 2015 2:54:03	admcewen wrote:
#437 Ramzour Jan 19, 2015 2:56:05	Devils-Advocate wrote:
#438 Ramzour Jan 19, 2015 2:59:44	Orethalion wrote:
#439 Ramzour Jan 19, 2015 3:01:58	JohnLynch wrote:
#440 admcewen Jan 19, 2015 5:53:00	Ramzour wrote:
#441 Orethalion Jan 19, 2015 6:40:57	JohnLynch wrote:
#442 Orethalion Jan 19, 2015 6:49:18	Ramzour wrote:
#443 Orethalion Jan 19, 2015 6:54:02	Ramzour wrote:
#444 Orethalion Jan 19, 2015 6:55:18	Ramzour wrote:
#445 Bluenose Jan 19, 2015 11:07:44	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #422) DungeonKrusher	Brock_Landers wrote:
(Reply to #423) DungeonKrusher	admcewen wrote:
(Reply to #442) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
#449 Orethalion Jan 19, 2015 13:49:43	Bluenose wrote:
#450 Orethalion Jan 19, 2015 14:01:07	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #449) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #450) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
#453 Orethalion Jan 19, 2015 16:25:55	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#454 Orethalion Jan 19, 2015 16:28:09	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #453) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #454) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
#457 Orethalion Jan 19, 2015 17:27:00	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #457) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
#459 Orethalion Jan 19, 2015 19:06:13	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #459) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
#461 grendel111111 Jan 19, 2015 19:36:48	Part of the problem is that what “is not D and D” is different for each person.   For some it is not using the d20 mechanic, 6 attributes, etc. For others, “No dragons, No D and D” For some it might be “if you don’t allow magic it’s not D and D anymore”. For some it might be “If it’s not crazy mythic save the world adventures, it’s not D and D”. Still others might be that if they are not in a dungeon “it’s not D and D”. Or no Dragonborn, or if you change HP’s, or if there are no races other than human.   The point is everyone has a different tolerance for what is acceptable and still calling it D and D.   If you are doing a more historical game set in a close to the real world type setting then everyone knows the parameters. “What do you mean there are no elves in Rome”, is unlikely to be a common complaint if they have chosen to play in the game and bought into the premise.   So you are limited to only playing humans, (so are we in the real world), Some DM’s might reflavour the other races and drop dark vision to represent different human cultures (personally I wouldn’t). And let’s say you are limited to just rogues and fighters as classes. There is no magic classes in the world, so you make your character from those two classes. You might let each player choose 2 backgrounds to add some extra depth (He was a beggar who lived on the streets, until the war started and he was conscripted into the army against his will). You can still end up with a diverse party (you could run a game with nothing but rogues quite effectively). They have different approaches to combat and you will find they start to fill in for the other classes, (woodsman archer fighter fills in for ranger, Acolyte sword and board fighter with healing skill covers for cleric, entertainer rogue fills the bard void, etc.) Also with less focus on combat other skills become more important. Also it’s likely that characters would be limited to 5th or 6th level so many of the more supernatural abilities don’t start showing up.   In terms of monsters the challenge is no longer go on dungeon crawls and kill dragons (who does that in real life anyway), You are facing real world challenges like bears, alligators, (or if set in the old world, dinosaurs)  The focus of the game moves for being murder hobos to be more political, or exploring a new part of the world. Magic moves from the realm of being “real” to being rumor and slight of hand. Never any proof, but always the superstition that it might just be real.   There is also the other side of it. At what point does it cease to be D and D anymore and is superheroes in fantasy land? The I part of BECMI became like that, is it still D and D if everyone is flying around shooting lasers out of their eyes? Some people will say yes and others will say no.   All this arguments about realism and what are the limits of D and D will differ between tables. That is the great thing about the game, no other person or table can make those decisions or limits for you or your table. As long as you are all having fun and telling great stories then everything is great in D and D land.
#462 Ramzour Jan 19, 2015 23:44:00	admcewen wrote:
#463 Brock_Landers Jan 19, 2015 23:59:20	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#464 Ramzour Jan 20, 2015 0:12:29	Orethalion wrote:
#465 Orethalion Jan 20, 2015 6:29:40	Ramzour wrote:
#466 Ramzour Jan 20, 2015 8:02:08	Orethalion wrote:
#467 Orethalion Jan 20, 2015 8:20:30	Ramzour wrote:
#468 grendel111111 Jan 20, 2015 8:22:02	Ramzour wrote:
#469 dmgorgon Jan 20, 2015 8:29:17	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #466) grendel111111	Ramzour wrote:
#471 Ramzour Jan 20, 2015 9:17:00	Orethalion wrote:
#472 ORC_Animus Jan 20, 2015 9:23:21	I’ve removed content from this thread because trolling/baiting/personal attacks are violations of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
#473 Orethalion Jan 20, 2015 9:43:23	Ramzour wrote:
(Reply to #440) DungeonKrusher	admcewen wrote:
(Reply to #461) DungeonKrusher	grendel111111 wrote:
(Reply to #463) DungeonKrusher	Brock_Landers wrote:
(Reply to #465) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
#478 Orethalion Jan 20, 2015 10:42:49	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#479 Ramzour Jan 20, 2015 10:44:16	Orethalion wrote:
#480 Orethalion Jan 20, 2015 10:45:15	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #466) DungeonKrusher	Ramzour wrote:
(Reply to #471) Bloodscythe	Ramzour wrote:
(Reply to #473) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
#484 Bluenose Jan 20, 2015 10:52:06	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #482) DungeonKrusher	Bloodscythe wrote:
#486 Orethalion Jan 20, 2015 10:59:03	Ramzour wrote:
#487 Ramzour Jan 20, 2015 11:00:23	grendel111111 wrote:
(Reply to #485) Bloodscythe	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#489 Ramzour Jan 20, 2015 11:07:15	Bloodscythe wrote:
#490 Orethalion Jan 20, 2015 11:14:03	Ramzour wrote:
(Reply to #489) Bloodscythe	Ramzour wrote:
#492 Ramzour Jan 20, 2015 11:32:07	Orethalion wrote:
#493 Ramzour Jan 20, 2015 11:44:32	Bloodscythe wrote:
#494 Ramzour Jan 20, 2015 11:56:15	Orethalion wrote:
#495 Ramzour Jan 20, 2015 12:12:23	Anyway, you guys can continue to argue about this for a while longer if you want. I've got my weekly D&D game tomorrow night and I'm going to go finish my DM prep. Luckily I play with rational people that understand that D&D is about having fun, not winning arguments on the internet.
(Reply to #493) Bloodscythe	Ramzour wrote:
#497 Orethalion Jan 20, 2015 12:23:23	Ramzour wrote:
(Reply to #488) DungeonKrusher	Bloodscythe wrote:
#499 Orethalion Jan 20, 2015 13:31:31	Ramzour wrote:
#500 Samrin Jan 20, 2015 14:16:16	A "feel" can never be anything but subjective
(Reply to #497) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #500) DungeonKrusher	Samrin wrote:
#503 Samrin Jan 20, 2015 14:23:42	I've run plenty of no magic games using the inherent bonus rules in 4e. I would never say it didn't "feel" like D&D. Others would say 4e itself didn't "feel" like D&D with or without magic. I heavily disagree with that. It's all subjective based on what you look for in the game.
#504 Orethalion Jan 20, 2015 14:28:40	Ramzour wrote:
#505 Orethalion Jan 20, 2015 14:29:57	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #498) Bloodscythe	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #501) Bloodscythe	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#508 Orethalion Jan 20, 2015 14:50:23	Bloodscythe wrote:
(Reply to #490) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
#510 Orethalion Jan 20, 2015 16:49:31	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #508) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #510) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #507) DungeonKrusher	Bloodscythe wrote:
(Reply to #506) DungeonKrusher	Bloodscythe wrote:
#515 Orethalion Jan 20, 2015 18:19:04	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #515) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
#517 Reius Jan 20, 2015 19:25:32	You guys ever heard of the ship of Theseus?
(Reply to #516) grendel111111	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #517) grendel111111	Reius wrote:
(Reply to #518) DungeonKrusher	grendel111111 wrote:
(Reply to #519) DungeonKrusher	grendel111111 wrote:
(Reply to #519) Reius	grendel111111 wrote:
(Reply to #520) grendel111111	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #521) grendel111111	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#525 Orethalion Jan 20, 2015 20:54:35	grendel111111 wrote:
#526 Orethalion Jan 20, 2015 20:56:37	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #523) DungeonKrusher	grendel111111 wrote:
(Reply to #526) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #524) DungeonKrusher	grendel111111 wrote:
(Reply to #525) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
#531 Orethalion Jan 20, 2015 21:46:49	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#532 Orethalion Jan 20, 2015 21:48:24	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #527) grendel111111	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #529) grendel111111	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #531) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #527) grendel111111	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#537 Orethalion Jan 20, 2015 22:19:18	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #535) grendel111111	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #536) DungeonKrusher	grendel111111 wrote:
(Reply to #538) DungeonKrusher	grendel111111 wrote:
(Reply to #537) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #534) DungeonKrusher	grendel111111 wrote:
(Reply to #541) grendel111111	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #533) DungeonKrusher	grendel111111 wrote:
(Reply to #543) DungeonKrusher	grendel111111 wrote:
(Reply to #532) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #544) grendel111111	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #547) DungeonKrusher	grendel111111 wrote:
(Reply to #542) grendel111111	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#550 Vahnyu Jan 20, 2015 23:26:02	No magic No classes No monsters (Especially Dragons) No dungeons No experience points Humans only Final Destination.   On a serious note, you take away magic, you might as well play d20 modern or something.   As for the actual realism vs magic part, well, realisn in an rpg is whatever the rpg in question defines as realistic. If the game defines people falling from 40 meters height with nary a scratch as realistic, that's that then.
(Reply to #548) grendel111111	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #550) grendel111111	Vahnyu wrote:
(Reply to #542) Bloodscythe	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#554 Lady_Auralla Jan 21, 2015 5:04:55	Over the years I have learned a couple of things to keep in mind with Wizards and realism. Be consistant, dont slap down martial classes and maintain the awe.
#555 Orethalion Jan 21, 2015 6:12:07	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#556 Elfcrusher Jan 21, 2015 6:13:21	Orethalion wrote:
#557 Orethalion Jan 21, 2015 6:14:13	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#558 Orethalion Jan 21, 2015 6:19:15	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#559 Orethalion Jan 21, 2015 6:23:25	Vahnyu wrote:
#560 Orethalion Jan 21, 2015 6:27:16	Elfcrusher wrote:
#561 Vahnyu Jan 21, 2015 7:12:46	Orethalion wrote:
#562 Orethalion Jan 21, 2015 7:51:38	Vahnyu wrote:
(Reply to #553) DungeonKrusher	Bloodscythe wrote:
(Reply to #551) DungeonKrusher	grendel111111 wrote:
(Reply to #555) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #558) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
#567 Orethalion Jan 21, 2015 10:49:29	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#568 Orethalion Jan 21, 2015 10:54:23	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #562) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #567) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #568) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
#572 Orethalion Jan 21, 2015 11:46:27	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#573 Orethalion Jan 21, 2015 11:50:07	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#574 Orethalion Jan 21, 2015 11:51:32	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #572) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
#576 Orethalion Jan 21, 2015 12:20:18	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #573) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #576) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
#579 Orethalion Jan 21, 2015 12:43:00	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #579) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
#581 Orethalion Jan 21, 2015 17:23:28	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #581) Reius	Orethalion wrote:
#583 Orethalion Jan 21, 2015 19:37:11	Reius wrote:
#584 grendel111111 Jan 21, 2015 19:51:35	If you playing in a non-magical game (presumably because that is what you were wanting to do), Then in all likely hood you do not have a magical cleric and can't turn undead. You would most likely have a rogue or fighter with an acolyte or priest background. He might need to do religon checks to discover a banishment ritual, or maybe they might need to find what is causing the ghost to be held in this place. They might need to do a quest to free the ghost to travel to the other side. It might also be that ghosts are psychic imprints of terrable things that have happened in the past (Such as the ghost of someone who was died in a gruesome way). There may be no way to free the ghost because it only appears when the conditions match the time it died (time of day, in a storm, etc.) It might just be a historical record of what once happened, but is also a clue for the characters. (such as a ghost ship seen off the coast, that can lead to finding the location where it sank 100 years ago.   Note that both these options are also possable in a magical game too.
#585 Reius Jan 21, 2015 21:19:10	This all sounds magical, to me. Just very, very low magic.   Also, the indisputable existence of ghosts and/or psychic imprints (or whatever) indicates that, at a bare minimum, superstition and psychic power are both real in this world. You can flavour it as "not magic" but it's pretty darn close.   Are psionics and psychic powers magical? Ghosts (and presumably souls/spirits) exist and prayer has real power, so do the gods exist? What if a god grants supernatural powers to a worshipper?   All I'm saying is that it seems to me like having a "real" ghost or "real" superstitions in the campaign would open a big ol' can of worms. If I was playing in a no-magic game and the DM introduced a "real" ghost, I'd call bullshit and ask if we're really playing a no-magic game or what the deal was. If they're just Scooby-doo ghosts (ie, tricks with a comb and a flashlight), that's ok because it isn't really a ghost, despite what the villagers believe.
#586 Orethalion Jan 21, 2015 22:09:05	Reius wrote:
(Reply to #585) grendel111111	Reius wrote:
(Reply to #586) Reius	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #587) Reius	grendel111111 wrote:
#590 Ramzour Jan 22, 2015 2:10:21	Orethalion wrote:
#591 Ramzour Jan 22, 2015 1:39:26	grendel111111 wrote:
#592 Ramzour Jan 22, 2015 1:54:29	grendel111111 wrote:
#593 Ramzour Jan 22, 2015 2:08:17	grendel111111 wrote:
#594 Lady_Auralla Jan 22, 2015 2:57:58	Ramzour wrote:
(Reply to #591) grendel111111	Ramzour wrote:
(Reply to #592) grendel111111	Ramzour wrote:
#597 Orethalion Jan 22, 2015 6:37:40	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #593) grendel111111	Ramzour wrote:
(Reply to #596) grendel111111	Ramzour wrote:
#600 Orethalion Jan 22, 2015 6:47:05	Ramzour wrote:
#601 Ramzour Jan 22, 2015 7:18:16	Orethalion wrote:
#602 Ramzour Jan 22, 2015 7:19:50	Lady_Auralla wrote:
#603 Orethalion Jan 22, 2015 7:31:02	Ramzour wrote:
#604 Ramzour Jan 22, 2015 7:40:45	grendel111111 wrote:
#605 bawylie Jan 22, 2015 8:30:56	As a general rule, I tend to not let a back-and-forth go on more than 3 posts with a single person on the same topic.    I could, naturally, argue forever. But it's all "yuh-Huh" "Nuh-uh" ad infinitem, but with superior vocabulary.    Anyway, after your threepeat, you don't have to (and probably shouldn't) keep arguing. Unless of course there's a new point to make. But the same points for 12 pages? Guys!
#606 Orethalion Jan 22, 2015 8:58:53	bawylie wrote:
(Reply to #591) DungeonKrusher	Ramzour wrote:
(Reply to #597) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #604) grendel111111	Ramzour wrote:
(Reply to #609) DungeonKrusher	grendel111111 wrote:
(Reply to #610) grendel111111	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#612 Ramzour Jan 23, 2015 0:04:41	Orethalion wrote:
#613 Ramzour Jan 23, 2015 0:44:46	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#614 Ramzour Jan 23, 2015 0:48:58	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#615 Orethalion Jan 23, 2015 6:31:51	Ramzour wrote:
(Reply to #615) DungeonKrusher	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #614) DungeonKrusher	Ramzour wrote:
#618 Orethalion Jan 23, 2015 11:03:30	DungeonKrusher wrote:
(Reply to #610) Satyrn	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#620 DLfan Jan 23, 2015 19:31:48	edwin_su wrote:
#621 Bluenose Jan 24, 2015 11:57:26	DungeonKrusher wrote:
#622 Orethalion Jan 25, 2015 6:31:08	Bluenose wrote: