Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Hebitsuikaza Aug 03, 2015 8:13:16	Do the hiding rules for Wood Elves or Lightfoot Halflings actually do anything? It seems to me that the rules limit other characters unreasonably if they do.   First, the elf's ability is to hide when lightly obscurred... but how often do DM's ever really take any time to consider if a character is lightly obscured or heavily obscurred? In fact, if it in dark clothing at night or in the dark, I would think people would generally rule they could stealth right out in the open, particularly if the targets are probably looking the other way or even during the day in a crowd of people, they could hide by taking off any conspicuous clothing, grabbing a hat and just blending into the crowd (although that might be disguise rather than stealth).   But certainly, since when do DM's-- particularly when not using a map-- ever worried about just how obscurred someone is if they want to make a stealth check? Pretty much all the examples given are times when I would think anyone could stealth.   I mean, if I were writing it, maybe I would write that they could walk over fallen leaves without making a sound and blend into the trees and leaves even when someone is looking in their direction. They would get advantage on stealth checks against targets who hadn't yet been alerted to their presence while in wood, forest or jungle areas. Maybe exactly when one of those terms would apply wouldn't always be clear-cut, but at least you know it does something.   The Halfling one is even more eggregious. It allows them to hide behind a creature bigger than them ("one size category bigger" we should note). Really? This is something that Halflings and Halflings alone are capable of? Gnomes can't do this and until rules come out that say otherwise, Goblins, Pixies and Kobolds are completely incapable of using such a technique?   In fact, small creatures aside.....?   Let's say you have young 5'2" teenage human priestess who found out that there was some sort of scandalous abuse or corruption going on at her temple (yeah, yeah-- alignment in D&D means such a thing is totally impossible, lets move on) and fearing that the head priest may decide to eliminate her to keep her quiet, she runs away with just the clothes on her back and a small bag of personal belongings. She gets about a two minute headstart before the temple guards begin to pursue her. Fleeing across a city that she barely knows, she decides to duck into a place that seems teeming with people. She has reason to suspect the templeguard are going to pursue her and so she quickly hides behind a big 6'3" burley human/golliath/orc/hobgoblin hoping she can't be seen....   And automatically fails because she is not a halfling so she can't hide behind creatures and they aren't a size category bigger than her even if they weight twice as much. Plus, as a cleric she likely doesn't have the stealth skill anyway.     Or... the party is in the town when they see a 12-year old human boy running across the town square with a bag of apples. Voices in the distance behind the crowd of people are yelling about a thief and this is a town where thievery is punished by dismemberment. The Ranger grabs the kid and hides him behind his cloak telling him to be quiet. When the guards come by, the Bard tells them that she saw the thief running off in another direction to get rid o them. And the Paladin shakes his head with a sigh, resolving to go pay the merchant for the apples but figures the law in this town is a bit too strict and it can be allowed to slip this time....   Only the Ranger cannot hide the boy behind him because only Lightfoot Halfling can hide behind larger creatures-- and as a human, he wouldn't count as a size category smaller anyway.   It just messes up so much suggesting that one needs to be an entire size category larger to obscure sight of someone behind them or that this is something unique only Halflings can do.   What I might suggest instead is that a Halfling is within 5' of a creature more than one size category larger, other creatures no longer have the ability to use ranged attacks against the Halfling without risking hitting their ally. I.E. their ally blocks "line of sight".
#2 Kangodo Aug 03, 2015 8:42:51	The action Hiding requires you to be unseen by the person you want to hide from.   A human behind another player will be seen. A human in a bush will be seen.   But a Halfling behind another play can hide. A Wood Elf in a bush can hide in there.
#3 Hebitsuikaza Aug 03, 2015 9:17:49	Kangodo wrote:
#4 Greenstone.Walker Aug 03, 2015 21:05:17	Hiding is not just about being unseen. It takes into account sound, body language, the ability to appear nondescrip, and so on. It also covers moving to stay behind cover.   I think you are confusing the game terms concealment ("can't be seen") and hidden (requires a Stealth roll, has all sorts of game effects like surprise and sneak attack and advantage).   Atempting to hide requires concealment, but being concealed doesn't necessarily mean you are hidden.   The princess can conceal herself behind the barbarian and perhaps not be seen by the pursuing guards. She might not be able to hide, so won't be getting sneak attacks or surprise.
#5 strider13x Aug 03, 2015 20:24:35	you do not need proficiency in Stealth to attempt a Hide Action. Also your narative examples are what the Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic are there for.Sure, standing behind someone a foot taller than you may not be heavy obscurement but as DM I will allow you to attempt to Hide at Disadvantage. Boom! rules working as intended. now a heavy cloak may be considered heavy obscurement, but I'm asking for that Ranger to give me aCharisma (Deception) check to pull that trick off... You limit yourself when you play like Hiding is hitting the F12 key to turn translucent. I expect better from you, Hebi!
#6 Hebitsuikaza Aug 03, 2015 23:39:44	strider13x wrote:
#7 Ramzour Aug 03, 2015 23:45:56	Both of these mechanics work absolutely fine in the game.   Just because you can come up with a few examples of where it might not work, doesn't invalidate every other scenario where it does work. I mean, your argument of "what DM tracks obscurement?" is basically saying "I'm too lazy to follow the rules, so therefore the game is broken." Kind of silly.
#8 Rya.Reisender Aug 04, 2015 0:18:52	The rules work just fine, especially in terms of balance. In terms of realism maybe not so much (like a halfling going behind another character and hiding behind it would not realistically make everyone forget about his position), but Hiding is just a popular feature, just like spells and it increases strategy in combat, because players have more possibilities to get the creatures to distribute their damage on the tanks.   As the DM decides where obscurement is sufficient I simply am more lenient with wood elves and lightfoot halflings hiding. Other races usually need to be behind total cover or in absolute darkness with enemies not having darkvision to even attempt hiding in my games.
#9 Dwarfslayer Aug 04, 2015 0:56:39	Essentially the halfling and wood elf abilities is like the old hide in plain sight ability for 3rd edition, where you can attempt to hide while being observed. Keep in mind that remaining hidden and hiding are two different things.   You can remain hidden with regular cover or light concealment. You can normally only try to hide with total cover or heavy concealment. The elf/halfling abilties let you attempt to hide while being observed.
#10 Hebitsuikaza Aug 04, 2015 1:56:30	Dwarfslayer wrote:
#11 Rya.Reisender Aug 04, 2015 2:02:09	I usually narrate it less like "hiding" and more like "escapes attention of". The monsters usually have more enemies (PCs) to keep track of so if that halfling rogue hides behind an ally, they will simply go after the others. If the rogue is alone and hides behind a stone pillar, though... well the monster will just go where it last saw him and find him.
#12 Noon Aug 04, 2015 4:22:32	Hebitsuikaza wrote:
#13 Angry_Steak Aug 04, 2015 6:10:19	Just answering the initial question: It doesn't come up often, but has proven useful for my players.   Last week the party was fighting near a bog at dusk. A light mist was obscuring their vision so they spread their lookouts around the camp and set up a tight defensive perimeter using wagons. Fast forward to an ambush and the Wood Elf Rogue/Ranger started using the mist to remove himself as a target and gain advantage on his attacks. He even managed to sneak around and capture one of the bandits.
#14 Hebitsuikaza Aug 04, 2015 6:25:17	Rya.Reisender wrote:
#15 Rya.Reisender Aug 04, 2015 6:54:50	If the enemy hasn't even noticed you yet, you can always hide no matter what race. Or rather... outside combat there are different rules anyway.   Hiding from an enemy in order to surprise him when he reaches you... I'd simple handle that via the surprise rules rather than the hide action for example. If the group just wants to stay undetected and get past the enemies, that's a normal stealth ability check for everyone (or a group check).
#16 FFSAA Aug 04, 2015 7:05:24	Hebitsuikaza wrote:
#17 shintashi Aug 04, 2015 11:50:11	i got to thinking about this lightly obscured thing.   Sniper theory:   a sniper is someone who can shoot, kill something, and still have the target area that is shot be unaware of the location of the shooter.   if the sniper moves then shoots from another location, they can perpetuate this effect persistently until a pattern forms.   A character who is lightly obscured is not under full cover, but they can be partially covered to be treated as lightly obscured, such as a lot of brush in a forest.   if a sinper is 500-600 feet away in dense brush, are you not by default lightly obscured and under half or 3/4 cover?   and if that is the case, and you have the archer feat, wouldn't you be able to maintain hiding even after you fired your first shot, up to and including your second shot?   then the real question is, how does this interact with sneak attack and surprise?   tldr: forest elves are scary.
#18 Rya.Reisender Aug 05, 2015 0:35:38	Are you referring to a specific feat that allows you to not be detected after an attack? Because by default you will always be detected after an attack, no matter where you are.
#19 Noon Aug 05, 2015 2:44:56	Hebitsuikaza wrote:
#20 RobotElder Aug 05, 2015 10:54:11	What about a wood elf hiding behind a bush and the halfling hiding behind the elf.
#21 Ramzour Aug 12, 2015 9:41:13	FFSAA wrote:
#22 Noon Aug 12, 2015 21:47:54	If I could just stand there looking rather than watching out for an axe that's trying to hit me in the head, sure, I could track that halfling. But that's probably aptly simulated by using your action to look for a target.   Someone who just imagines they are completely undistracted in the midst of combat...I would say they aren't imagining the situation all that well.