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| #1OrzelJul 27, 2014 7:13:36 | Here is the premise. The character is the epitome of his or her race. He is the Super Sayains of the Dwarves. She is the Captain America of Halfingkind. THe Lucy of Gnomes. Someone could be the elfiest elf that ever elfed.
Flavorwise this is a person who trained and studied to go back to their racial roots. They could be a member of the race's special sect of warriors. Or it could just be a magic ritual that either reverts that to their most primal state or unlock hidden racial gifts.
Subclasses would be your race. Dwarf paragon. Elf paragon. Each with their own racial primary scores and grant the 4e racial powers. The base class would be warrior like and get Extra Attack.
Ideas:
Dwarf paragons would look like fighters. They would get their 4e racial as second wind multiple times per short rest. They'd get bonus damage with axes and hammers. DR as their skin turns to stone. And high levels gives some geomancy.
Elf paragons would be masters of Bow and Sword. They'd treat all swords as finesse (Finesse greatsword yo) They'd get their 4e racial and some arcane magic as they revert to pure fey.
Human paragon gives ability increases and bonus proficiencies. Johnny Alltwenties at high level. Or feats. FEATS EVERYWHERE.
Halfling paragon stole my idea.
So would you be interested? Would you play it? Would you allow it in your games?
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| #2Lady_AurallaJul 27, 2014 7:20:13 | I am thinking back to when racess were classes and wouldnt mind seeing it again purely out of interest and curiosity. |
| #3melloredJul 27, 2014 8:04:31 | Depends on the race. I don't see a need for a elf, human, or dwarf class. They simply don't have enough special things about them. Though your ideas arn't bad, i see no reason why humans couldn't use axes, get stone skin, and some geomancy.
Now, i could see a elves being ideal bladesingers, but there shouldn't be a reason why dwarfs couldn't take up the art as well.
But for the more monster-y type races, the option to take a few (like 1-5) levels of pixie, minotaur, dragonborn, or mind flayer would make plenty of sense to me. You don't expect a dwarf to be able to gore people with his hornes, or east someone's brain.
Pixie Class: 1d4 HD.
Pixie Level 1: As an action, you can fly. Gain 1d4 sneak attack damage per pixie level. You can speak with animals.
Pixie Level 2: 1/day your can turn invisible 1/day you can cast charm.
Pixie Level 3: As a bonus action, you can fly.
Pixie Level 4: 1/short rest your can turn invisible. 1/short rest you can cast charm.
?? And that migt be it. |
| #4kalilJul 27, 2014 8:07:53 | Not really a fan of racial classes, so thanks but no thanks from me. |
| #5Mephi1234Jul 27, 2014 8:13:36 | Yes and no.
High elf racial paragon class would involve them doing gish stuff - their race signature stuff are arcane archers and bladesingers, so not sure how different those are from eldritch knights and arcane tricksters. Wood elves taken taken to the extreme are rangers, through and through. Drow seem to be very warlock-y, and half-elves very bard-like. Tiefling RPC would involve infernal warlock stuff. Dragonborn and dragon bloodline sorcerer mixed with paladin? Dwarves traditionally default to fighter or rune priests (war clerics with some norse mythology flavoring). Half- and full orcs lean to barbarian stuff. Halflings to rogues. Gnomes to illusionists and alchemists (transmuters?)
Now, I like the idea of racial stuff. The problem I have is the sheer overlap with other stuff already out there. In 3e, the racial PrCs made you better at the race's favored class. In 4e, it did the same thing with Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies. The problem is that the 3e stuff was usually worse than going straight class while doing the same thing, and all of 4e's stuff was alongside your class, making it more of a question of "does it synergize with the favored class?"
Now, given that there are no dead levels anymore... I'm not sure how this would be really good or easy to do. Or beneficial. Take Tiefling. Tieflings are pretty much as infernal-warlock like as you can get. Their racial abilities are all tied to warlock magic. So, growing as a tiefling would give you more warlock spells to cast? Improve your resistances? All this is stuff the class already does; but the class would probably do better at it. Dragonborn would grow scales, wings, breath more fire... all stuff the sorcerer does, and probably easier too.
I'd talk about making specific subclasses for the race, but in the case of gnomes, halflings, dragonborn, tiefling, high elves, mountain dwarves, and drow, we already do have the subclasses.
Humans are the only exception to all the above; their race abilities make them generally better at anything they do. Which means... they're good for a Factotum class that doesn't exist? |
| #6HebitsuikazaJul 27, 2014 8:16:27 | The problem with racial classes is simple...
For the most part they would just do what other classes already do. At their very best maybe they would be a weird multi-class mix that there really isn't a class that synchs up with that particular balance very well, but....
No. For the most part they would just be duplicating what other classes already allow. And if they are so very, very similar to already existing classes then chances are that they are going to be either purely mechanically superior, thus giving the race a special superior version of a class they are already good at, or will be mechanically inferior, in which case there is no point in anyone using it as one should just play the straight class.
Now, in some truly monsterous classes who really cannot be portrayed in an accurate manner if their level is below level X-- then maybe it is unavoidable. Races whose magical essences would just allow them to naturally use higher-than-cantrip level wizard spells at will are just.... going to be an issue. As are those who are just much larger or much smaller than the races that already exist. |
| #7souldoubtJul 27, 2014 8:35:59 | I'm with mellored.
Racial levels (they wouldn't be called "classes" per se) for certain "monstrous" races would be cool and appropriate. Not so much for standard races, since as others have pointed out an "elf class" would probably just end up looking a lot like some other already existing class+subclass. |
| #8OrzelJul 27, 2014 9:37:56 |
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| #9Mephi1234Jul 27, 2014 10:11:53 |
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| #10OrzelJul 27, 2014 11:03:07 |
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| #11Mephi1234Jul 27, 2014 11:36:30 |
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| #12Goober4473Jul 27, 2014 11:41:56 | I would probably want to see this only as subclasses, rather than full classes.
So a dwarf paragon wouldn't be a class that looks like a fighter, but would instead be a fighter with a dwarf-only subclass. Hell, you could even allow a non-dwarf to take it if they choose to follow the example of dwarves, setting and game style dependant. |
| #13OrzelJul 27, 2014 11:51:56 | It would really depend on how conservative that classes are in the full game. And I think the 5e designers are very conservative.
From what I expect to see, I don't see the current classes/subclass, feats, nor multiclassng handling. D&D has never done 3 class multiprocessing well nor spells as attacks, or non slot magic well. |
| (Reply to #12)JC999 |
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| #15AshrymJul 27, 2014 12:12:06 |
All a person needs is a new class that emphasizes racial fluff and characteristics that is only available to that race. Could be really interesting in some campaigns. Dwarves defender would be an example, or arcane archer. |
| #16Luis_CarlosJul 27, 2014 15:10:05 | I love the idea of racial parangon class from Unearther Arcana 3.5. All the main PCs should to be one... and maybe also a background parangon class . It would work like multiclassing, wouldn´t it? Interesting idea for a module.
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| #17CennediJul 27, 2014 15:56:50 | Battleragers = win. |
| #18OrzelJul 27, 2014 16:23:27 | The point is is you don't do something drastic, then the racial class is easily replicated by current class d, current feats, and multiclassng. So a racial paragon class (or any new class) would have to bring something too big to handle in any subclass, multiclass, or feat.
For example here is how I see the first 6 levels of the dwarf racial class.
1) Dwarven toughness (+1HP/level) Second Wind 2) Third Wind 3) Paragon Action (Weight of Earth: bonus action to defend or shove when weilding warhammer, battleaxe, throwing hammer or handaxe) 4) Ability Score Improvement 5) Paragon Stance (Defensive Stance: +2 AC and +2TH/level once per rest, ends if you move more than 10 ft in a turn.) 6) Poision Immunity 7) Permanent Stoneskin (when above 50% HP) 8) Extra Attack
Basically the 4e Earthstrength warden and 3e Dwarven Defenders lovechild. The tankiest tank. Later levels would grant spell resistance, earth magic, and even more Second Winds. Basically stuff too broken without a huge investment.
The dwarven fighter chops the Dragon. The dwarven cleric hits the Dragon with a hammer and heals his buddy. The dwarven paragon tanks the Dragon taunting it that that she smelled worse ale breath.
Sure you could do it with feat trees but feat trees are Evil.
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| #19MechaPilotJul 27, 2014 16:57:16 |
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| #20THEMNGMNTJul 28, 2014 22:28:34 | I like the idea of a racial paragon. Within the context of 5E, I don't think it is best expressed as a class. Possibly a subclass. More likely a feat. |
| #21TiaNadiezjaJul 28, 2014 22:34:15 | Feats to improve racial features - especially single feats that hit all the "main" features of a subrace at once - sound like a much better approach to reaching the goal to me. |
| (Reply to #21)GilbertMDH |
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| #23TiaNadiezjaJul 29, 2014 6:53:52 |
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| #24Mephi1234Jul 29, 2014 7:41:38 | Savage species had the problem of empty levels where you didn't even get hit points (effectively giving +LA), random points where you got random stat boosts, and arbitrary 1/day powers. And after you reached top level of the Savage Species level, you were often expected to enter a class; without caster levels, you'd never be a good wizard, cleric, or whatever. That left the martial classes, except that you were really behind in terms of feats and HP.
The issue was just that it was badly implemented due to ideas long discarded. Not to mention each monster was an entirely different class.
Though, I'm really unsure how a Savage Speicies class would look like using the modern 5e approach. Stat boosts... how much for each? Are there innate monster abilities, such as gaze attacks?
Modeling a monster is a bit more complicated than a PC. Monsters tend to get abrievated abilities, since full stats aren't necessary. PCs get a wide variety of abilities.
I think that, in the end, if we want to model a monster race, our best option is going to be to an actual race and subrace collection. Few monsters are complicated enough that they can't be modeled by (sub-)racial abilities, a feat, and/or an appropriate class.
Lets say someone wants to be a medusa style critter. PF pulled off a poisonous snake style race; actually, they made two. Easy enough to do again. Add in a hypnotic and a petrifying gaze as, oh, a warlock spell lets say that they get as a racial spell. Throw on some poison resistance and ability to add poison to any melee attacks (cantrip level effect, since its easy enough to buy poison, maybe?). Not that different from the tiefling race, end of the day. Maybe turn one of those into a feat instead if it is too much.
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| #25MechatarrasqueJul 29, 2014 7:45:52 |
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| #26Caliburn101.Jul 29, 2014 8:16:09 | I may well be interested in a racial subclass package.
For instance, a wood elf steeped in the martial lore of his race swapping out the Champion abilities for those relevant to the ancient traditional fighting style only taught to members of his warrior lodge.
In fact I will be doing some for my homebrew when the DMG is out.
But entire new classes..? no... |
| #27LawolfJul 29, 2014 8:45:38 | What about something like this class: http://community.wizards.com/forum/product-and-general-dd-discussions/threads/4112201
Rename it to paragon and provide certain talents or subclasses that are based on race. |
| #28Joe_the_RatJul 29, 2014 9:01:08 | I'm with the subclass / feat camp on this one. A way to emphasize being particulalry dwarfy/elfy/warforgedidy in the context of what you do. This also gives you flexibility to introduce race-themed subclesses in multiple areas, rather than having one paragon hat for each race. Dwarves, for example, could have a dwarf-only Stalwart Defender Fighter Archetype, and a deep wisdom / geomantic "Dwarf" Cleric domain, and a Dwarven Boxman Rogue, who excels at dealing with all things mechanical.
The trick is to find the elements that are defining of X race in Y class (if such exist). I suppose this does get away from a true "Paragon" concept into themed subsplats. It would make good material for race supplements...
Paragon Feats might be an easier way to go. We have already seen feats with prerequisites; having a "More Half-Orc than Half-Orc" feat with prereq: Half-Orc that plays to / enhances the essence of the race, and is usable (if not always optimal) to any class would be a way to go. Feats would also give you three* levels of play with standard racial traits before developing yourself into being an elf's elf.
*You could also set level limits if you want to push these out further, or add higher tiers of paragon abilities. I would also be inclined to not make a "Human Paragon" feat. Humans can try to be anythng, I'm having a hard time coming up with human feats that are not better served by anything other than "pick a feat." |
| #29TheLyonsJul 29, 2014 9:32:53 | I can't see racial paragon being a full class, but I could see it as a subclass of one of the core classes in the PHB.
For example, I could see a subclass of High Elf racial paragon for wizard. In fact, I could see the Arcane Archer as basically this idea. But I would only want to see the levels where you got your subclass ability replaced with thematic racial abilities for one class per subrace. Anything more is pushing it, IMO. |
| #30MechaPilotJul 29, 2014 13:03:11 |
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| #31Mephi1234Jul 29, 2014 13:20:02 |
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| #32MechaPilotJul 29, 2014 16:31:17 |
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| #33Mephi1234Jul 29, 2014 16:47:00 |
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| #34MechaPilotJul 29, 2014 16:55:09 |
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| #35Xeviat-DMJul 29, 2014 23:25:20 | After 4E's vampire class, and my general love for Savage Species, I fully intend on making Racial Classes if they aren't made for me. Having racial classes for the humanoids would be useful too, if only to stock up on NPCs for use in my games.
I had a guideline that reminds me of this from my 3E games: NPCs of the humanoid races must take 1/4th of their levels in their racial favored class. It made them a little weaker sometimes, but it provided a lot of flavor. |
| #36OrzelJul 30, 2014 4:28:09 | My idea was to make a path for a character to become a true version of their race. Elves and gnome become true fey. Tieflings become true friends. Dwarves become stone people. Dragoborn become minidragons. Half orcs become giant orcs. Etc. I was afraid that abilities like permanent flight, tremorsense, and immunities would be too broken to attach to existing classes. |
| #37Mephi1234Jul 30, 2014 4:31:38 |
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| #38Joe_the_RatJul 30, 2014 6:18:59 |
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| #39OrzelJul 30, 2014 6:57:27 |
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| #40Mephi1234Jul 30, 2014 11:21:01 |
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| #41Xeviat-DMJul 30, 2014 11:23:39 | Alter Self allows winged flight as a second level spell. |
| (Reply to #41)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| #43KalaniJul 30, 2014 13:10:54 | AFAIK, despite the fact that the playtest has ended, those who participated are still under NDA when it comes to the playtested material which has yet to show up in the live game. As such, providing links to feats, races, spells, etc that were playtested would likely be in violation of said NDA (but I could be wrong). We are allowed to discuss what we playtested, but we are not allowed to republish block text. Sorry. |
| (Reply to #43)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| #45MacEochaidAug 03, 2014 23:12:43 | +1 for racial feats and subclass options. Definitely can see these in the splatbooks. I agree subclasses will have to be class/race specific and should be tied to growing the abilities gained at 1st level.
School of the Spiral Tower for instance would be a Wizard subclass only for Elves that slowly gives bonus when using short and longswords as an arcane focus, while Elven Sword style is a Feat that make longswords a finesse weapon. |
| #46GriffordAug 04, 2014 11:40:43 | "Racial Paragon" is so 3E. That being said, I'd make it a feat. |