Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Irving Dec 17, 2008 10:15:26	So I'm thinking about Ravenloft 4e races, and the big bugaboos are tieflings and dragonborn. Now, Tieflings actually aren't all that bad. None of their feats or powers depend precisely on their physical qualities, so we can take the half-demon look away from them and replace it with something more subtle - eyes that shine red in the right light, a single cloven hoof that's hidden within a boot, that sort of thing. It plays right into the setting, really - there are more than a few tales where the devil shows up in town looking precisely like this. I suppose we can start worrying about reality wrinkles and so forth... but frankly, why? There's no good benefit, and several big problems arise if you assume tieflings cause wrinkles. So that's not too hard. Dragonborn, though, are... different. Dragons and Gothic Horror are an uneasy fit - it can be done, if you think Arthurian horror/tragedy and not the Bronte-era material. But dragonborn are odd beasts, and it doesn't help that they do depend on a physical aspect for a power: i.e, they breathe fire. The easiest answer is to delete them and add another race. (Vistani is an obvious one; I hate the idea of "half-Vistani" with a passion. A fey-like monster race like, say, goblin works well for me too.) But does anyone want to persuade me otherwise before I take a step that drastic?
#2 Irving Dec 17, 2008 11:04:03	I also have a tentative design for a 4e Vistani: RACIAL TRAITS +2 Constitution, +2 Charisma Size: Medium Speed: 6 squares Vision: Normal Language: Patterna, Common Skill Bonuses: +2 Thievery, +2 Nature Voice of Wrath: You may use Voice of Wrath as an encounter power. Group Insight: You grant all allies within 5 squares a +1 bonus to Insight rolls. Human Nature: You may take feats that have human as a prerequisite, as long as you meet all other requirements. Mistwalker: You gain a +1 bonus to your Will defense. In addition, you gain a +5 bonus to your defense against all teleportation effects. Voice of Wrath The black curse you hurl at your tormentor leaves him reeling in terror. You find a vicious strength in his torment. Racial power Daily * Psychic * Fear * Dread Standard Action Ranged 10 Target: One creature Attack: Charisma vs. Will Hit: 1d6 + Charisma modifier psychic damage, and the target takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls until the end of the turn. Slide the target 1 square. You may spend a healing surge. The Dread keyword... well, I've got no idea just yet what it does. Probably "the DM may alter the effects of this power at any time without warning or notice." But it strikes me as a good place holder for now. The race is geared to be a great Warlock choice, and a very good ranger or rogue choice. Thoughts?
#3 ishan_wh Dec 19, 2008 10:23:34	Hey nice Vistani... just one idea since this wanderers of the mists are all more roguish than the average fighters, you should change the +2 constitution for a +2 Dexterity to go more with their larcenous flavor... just a thought Keep up with the good work brother
#4 deadletter Dec 19, 2008 16:04:46	I loved this when I read it on fraternity (NykylaiHellray here), a Vistani playable race is somthing that I could really see working (as I would rather have my players as natives then people who lost there way). As for tieflings I like them, though agree they can be a bit to demonic, and I hate the dragonborn. Though there are dragons in ravenloft (few I know).....maybe its possible to create a mist type dragonborn which works more with the setting? As for goblins I like the idea of it. It also could be interesting introducing a type of shadow fey humanoid. I am not sure really what do you lot think?
#5 gnarfflinger Dec 23, 2008 11:33:46	While Dragonborn wouldn't likely be native to Ravenloft, they could find their way there just as easily as anything else would be sucked in. That said, I would not object to having Dragonborn look more human for a Ravenloft Campaign as well... Remember that the farther the character looks from human, the worse the reaction he'll get from the natives...
#6 The_Jester Dec 24, 2008 9:48:28	I was always stuck on the dragonborn. I can see drow and genasi and tieflings in Ravenloft but the idea of big, muscular dragons... just does not fit no matter how hard I try. The best might be to dump the dragon breath, give 'em wings and an encounter fly power, and call 'em gargoyles. But that's so totally different from dragonborn...
#7 Irving Dec 24, 2008 15:45:09	Huh. Per encounter, fly 10 spaces? It really changes their "role" aptitude. Dragonborn are paladins par excellence; gargoyle paladins? Gargoyles with +2 Charisma? Hmm. It could work. What if the origin of Gargoyle is intimately tied to the Church of Ezra? Gargoyles are widely seen as defenders and avengers of the Church - as time has gone on, some gargoyles have chosen other churches. When a gargoyle walks into a bar in Borca, the patrons don't flee screaming... but they get very quiet, and they answer questions. Hmm. Maybe. Maybe.... let's kick it around on the Fraternity, too.
#8 deadletter Dec 27, 2008 10:32:13	I like the idea of gargoyles defending the church. Though I would not call them dragoborn. Merely use them to fill the void which the dragonborn left. What about there creation? Are they golem type constructions empowered by faith? Or a living breathing creature that can somtimes turn itself to stone?
#9 Irving Dec 28, 2008 7:29:23	Heh. Way back in the day, I remember a 2e book that had an awesome ecology for gargoyles. The concept was thus: Gargoyles are egg-layers. They embed their eggs into solid stone, and they shape their bodies out of that stone. Their eventual forms, however, are drastically impacted by the thoughts of the people around the stone they embed into. (Which explains the gargoyle propensity for churches - they need lots of imaginative thought to craft a well-formed body.) So yes, they are crafted from stone, but the process of becoming a gargoyle makes that stone as soft and malleable as flesh - let's not imply a strong baseline AC for gargoyles by dint of their birth.
#10 Cyber-Dave Jan 02, 2009 11:51:12	What racial power would one replace "dragon breath" with in order to create such gargoyles?
#11 The_Jester Jan 04, 2009 18:34:31	Encounter ability to fly X squares. Possibly farther than an eladrin can teleport as flying is slightly less powerful than teleportation (triggering opportunity attacks). Of course, since you can fly around obstacles, fly might be more useful as teleporting requires line of sight. There is a genasi type with fly, but, IIRC, it can only fly the same number as an eladrin teleport.
#12 Cyber-Dave Jan 05, 2009 1:18:30	What if the race was given the non-combat version of flight? IE: flight as overland movement? That would mean that any attempt to fly during combat would kill all of its other actions... (creatures with flight as an overland movement ability who use a move action to fly during any given turn of a combat lose their swift and standard action as well, as per the RAW).
#13 The_Jester Jan 05, 2009 9:36:56	It makes restricting their non-combat movement more difficult. And doesn't restrict much combat movement (ie standard action then fly away. And crashing 1 square above the ground results in no damage).
#14 Cyber-Dave Jan 05, 2009 15:44:39	It makes restricting their non-combat movement more difficult. Yes, that would be the point. I am asking, is that really a problem? I mean, the reason races don't get flight in 4e is because it makes creatures a combat god. Would it be that big of a deal to grant a PC race overland movement, allowing them free use of flight out of combat, but not give them any "racial combat power." And doesn't restrict much combat movement (ie standard action then fly away. And crashing 1 square above the ground results in no damage). This is not true. That is not the way things work with overland flight. If you used a standard action to attack, you would not be able to fly in the same round. You could fly away in the next round (as long as you didn't do anything else)... but you can not attack and then fly with overland movement.
#15 Cyber-Dave Jan 07, 2009 22:13:09	Ok, so, the concept of the playable Gargoyle style race really tickled my fancy. I ended up creating a fully stated "Gargoylekin" over on the house rule boards. If anyone wants to take a look, please check out the link from my signature.
#16 convertingrl Jan 14, 2009 8:24:15	Upon further review of the 4e ruleset, I will not be working at all on converting Ravenloft to 4e. I had some ideas about minimizing the external manifestations of the races' differences (and in so doing, reducing their powers), but ultimately, I just can't see dragonborn, tieflings, genasi, or any of the power-differential races having a place in the kind of campaign I would run there. Even elves and eladrin are just a very, very poor fit for a Gothic horror campaign. When I want to scare the puddin' out of my players in the future, the furthest I'm willing to go is MAYBE a 4e RL campaign in which the races are limited to humans only, and even that is not likely. Good luck and godspeed to all of you who are involved in such an effort, but for me? Probably never going to shell out the cash for the new rules. I am, by the way, very sad to be saying that; I wish I could stick behind my game, but for the purposes of RL, I will remain a faithful 3.5 DM.
#17 Cyber-Dave Jan 14, 2009 13:03:22	Upon further review of the 4e ruleset, I will not be working at all on converting Ravenloft to 4e. I had some ideas about minimizing the external manifestations of the races' differences (and in so doing, reducing their powers), but ultimately, I just can't see dragonborn, tieflings, genasi, or any of the power-differential races having a place in the kind of campaign I would run there. Even elves and eladrin are just a very, very poor fit for a Gothic horror campaign. When I want to scare the puddin' out of my players in the future, the furthest I'm willing to go is MAYBE a 4e RL campaign in which the races are limited to humans only, and even that is not likely. You must never have liked 2e or 3e Ravenloft very much either then. I mean, it had elves (both the elf and eladrin stereotypes), sometimes tieflings (since the domains of dread reached into all planes), and sometimes who knows what else. Whatever else Ravenloft used to be, it was still D&D. There were always fantastic races in the setting. Good luck and godspeed to all of you who are involved in such an effort, but for me? Probably never going to shell out the cash for the new rules. I am, by the way, very sad to be saying that; I wish I could stick behind my game, but for the purposes of RL, I will remain a faithful 3.5 DM. Your loss. I wish you well with your 3.5 gaming.
#18 convertingrl Jan 14, 2009 14:00:17	You must never have liked 2e or 3e Ravenloft very much either then. I mean, it had elves (both the elf and eladrin stereotypes), sometimes tieflings (since the domains of dread reached into all planes, and sometimes who knows what else. Whatever else Ravenloft used to be, it was still D&D. There were always fantastic races in the setting. Indeed there always were, and I always was a little squeamish with using them. I made do, and as long as the race wasn't an overplayed cliche that took over the development of the character, it was easy enough to ignore it; under some isolated circumstances - like the domain of Darkon's memory-stealing phenomenon - it was even useful. It never turned me off to the setting itself - my start with Ravenloft was, literally, Ravenloft, I6 - it just was a portion of the setting that I elected to invest minimal energy in. The standard character races of previous editions were passable as humans by appearance and, as importantly, in ability at the base, non-character, level 0 level of things; they were more likely to be the recipients of nightmares than the subjects thereof. It can't really be said that the same would be true of tieflings, dragonborn, and even genasi. Your loss. I wish you well with your 3.5 gaming. I don't particularly feel that I've lost anything, nor do I feel that you have. We're all playing our own game, and there's nothing at all wrong with either of our elections. I likewise wish you well with your game(s)!
#19 martinaj Jan 18, 2009 20:35:16	I'm going to start a game soon, so I'm working on a conversion. Obviously, that means updating races for 4th edition. In my campaign, Dragonborn exist only as outlangers, and Tieflings are exceedingly rare. They are the direct result of an actual union between a mortal and a creature tainted by fiendish energy. Before I go into further detail, one thing bears noting. In my 4th ed conversion, I'm cutting down on languages. I still love the idea of "no common," but in prior games, I've had major issues in which PCs couldn't communicate with each other. Therefore, while I am keeping every language in the game, only four of them are now widely used in the world, these being Mordentish, Balok, Darkonese, and Vassi. Every race begins play knowing one of these four, depending on their home domain. When "choice of one other" appears on a race's language, they may select either any of these languages, or one of the minor languages spoken in their domain. The lesser languages such as Luktar, Lamordian, Patterna (which is somewhat of a special case) exist in the same respect that Welsh or Breton do today. They are commonly known and spoken in their domain of origin, but rarely as a first language, and they don't see a great deal of use beyond those domains. Anyways, enough about that. Without further ado, I present to you my updated Caliban and Giorgito. Please feel free to offer input and feedback. The Caliban is designed to replace the Dragonborn, being effective fighters, warlocks, and (when the class releases) barbarians. The Giorgito are meant to be a versatile race, somewhat similar to half-elves, but with a different class bent. I do realize I'm ripping off a couple of existing racials and renaming them. Caliban +2 Strength, +2 Charisma. No matter what form they may take, a Caliban is gifted with supernatural strength and a fiercely powerful will. +2 to Intimidate and (Survival or Streetwise, choose one at character creation). Calibans have a fearsome reputation, and whether they scrap by in the town or city of their birth, or they live as exiles in the wilderness, they must often learn to fend for themselves. Speed: 6 Languages: By region Eldritch Fortitude: A Caliban adds their charisma bonus to their healing surge value. Onslaught of the Scorned: A Caliban gains a +1 bonus to attack rolls against bloodied targets. Encounter Power Curseborn Fury: Minor action, may only be activated after being struck by a melee attack. On your next attack against a target that hit you with a melee attack last round, you gain a +1 bonus to hit, and the target takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls until the end of your next turn. Giorgito (Half-Vistani) +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma. The Giorgito are granted both the a measure of their Vistani parent's insight and wisdom, and they are possessed of great cunning. (Both of a Giorgito's bonus statistics are tied to the same defense, which means that if we're balancing them by current 4E standards, they should have one or two more extra abilities). +2 to Insight, +2 to one other skill based on Tasque. Speed: 6 Languages: By region, choice of one other. A Giorgito may select Patterna as one of their starting languages (normaly only available via the Linguist feat). Vistani Ancestry: A Giorgito is consider HUMAN for the effects of powers that depend on race, but they must select a Tasque from which they are descended at character creation. This decision influences which encounter power they have, and a handful of other abilities. Vistani Knack: A Giorgito is trained in one additional skill, chosen at character creation. Grace of the Mists: A Giorgito makes saving throws at the beginning of a round, rather than at the end. The saving throw occurs BEFORE ongoing damage Tasque Choices Kaldresh: +2 bonus to Survival. A Kaldresh Giorgito has a base speed of 7. You may use Path of the Wanderer as an encounter power. Boemian: +2 bonus to Bluff checks. A Boemian has a +2 bonus to initiative. You may use Exile's Spite as an encounter power. Manusa: +2 bonus on Arcana checks. You have a +1 to will defense and are considered a Vistani for the purposes of powers that target race (not human). You may use Evil Eye as an encounter power. Encounter Powers Path of the Wanderer: Minor Action. You may shift up to your speed. Exile's Spite: Immediate Reaction, when afflicted by a condition or ongoing damage. The enemy who caused the condition or ongoing damage suffers from the same condition (save ends) or ongoing damage (save ends). Evil Eye: Minor Action, Range 5. Int, Wis, or Cha vs. Will Defense. 1d6+Int, Wis, or Cha psychic damage, and the target is dazed until the end of its next turn.
#20 sehmerus Feb 05, 2009 11:25:48	I think its important for all to consider the ONE rule that WOTC has made for thier worlds, and that is campaign settings may ADD races and classes but MAY NOT take them away, So regardless of what DM's feel about teh Dragon born and tieflings, they have to be fit in some way. Now we can CHANGE them as a result of the Ravenlofts effect (maybe replacing thier breathe weapon with something else or whatever) because IF ravenloft ends up being revisited in 2010 or 2011 it will have these races in them. For those who didnt know, At Gencon it was announced that there where 5 planned campaigns for 4th edition (the first being Realms and the second being ebberon) and they planned to bring back 2 of old canceled campaings (among the rumors are Darksun, but some feel ravenloft and spelljammer are also intended targets for upgrades to 4th) the 5th campaign will be another new one that will be result of the wizrds contest (the same contest that brought us eberonn) so there is "some" chance that Ravenlof t might be one of the 2 intended for upgrade.
#21 The_Jester Feb 05, 2009 16:51:58	I think its important for all to consider the ONE rule that WOTC has made for thier worlds, and that is campaign settings may ADD races and classes but MAY NOT take them away, So regardless of what DM's feel about teh Dragon born and tieflings, they have to be fit in some way. Now we can CHANGE them as a result of the Ravenlofts effect (maybe replacing thier breathe weapon with something else or whatever) because IF ravenloft ends up being revisited in 2010 or 2011 it will have these races in them. And then they'll wonder why the die-hard fans aren't interested in the remapped world with its dozen new forced-in races and classes and blame the world for not selling... For those who didnt know, At Gencon it was announced that there where 5 planned campaigns for 4th edition (the first being Realms and the second being ebberon) and they planned to bring back 2 of old canceled campaings (among the rumors are Darksun, but some feel ravenloft and spelljammer are also intended targets for upgrades to 4th) the 5th campaign will be another new one that will be result of the wizrds contest (the same contest that brought us eberonn) so there is "some" chance that Ravenlof t might be one of the 2 intended for upgrade. I haven't heard a solid source for this so I'm dubious. Everyone seems to know a "friend of a friend" who heard "X" or "Y" at GenCon. The number should be close as there's enough material for 4 PHBs and Draconomicons (and 3 DMGs: Heroic, Paragon, and Epic). With the 5th year being rule expansions, new ideas, and testing new mechanics. But since Ravenloft, Planescape, and Spelljammer have been folded into the Core, WotC would probably argue every book is aplicable for those settings (or, more accurately, any book can mine those settings for ideas). So they'll probably go with other settings for the actual books: Dark Sun, Dragonlance, Greyhawk would be the easy three. Maybe Mystra or Birthright for an odd-ball, or even Hollow World. But if the last is a submission/contest then it'll probably just be Dark Sun (to cross-sell with psionics in PHB3) and Dragonlance.
#22 john_w._mangrum Feb 09, 2009 2:17:40	And then they'll wonder why the die-hard fans aren't interested in the remapped world with its dozen new forced-in races and classes and blame the world for not selling... To be blunt, I doubt there are enough die-hard Ravenloft fans to make a ripple in their sales expectations.
#23 gomeztoo Feb 09, 2009 7:08:02	In a way, Ravenloft has taken form in the 'domains of dread' that exist in the Shadowfell. Strahd has been returned as well (in Open Grave).
#24 The_Jester Feb 09, 2009 9:47:14	To be blunt, I doubt there are enough die-hard Ravenloft fans to make a ripple in their sales expectations. I was thinking die-hard Dark Sun fans balking at dragonborn and tieflings, or Dragonlance fans reacting to goliath and half-orc (ohhh they're going to love the addition of half-orc).
#25 mourn_dup Feb 11, 2009 13:52:17	Voice of Wrath The black curse you hurl at your tormentor leaves him reeling in terror. You find a vicious strength in his torment. Racial power Daily * Psychic * Fear * Dread Standard Action Ranged 10 Target: One creature Attack: Charisma vs. Will Hit: 1d6 + Charisma modifier psychic damage, and the target takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls until the end of the turn. Slide the target 1 square. You may spend a healing surge. It does damage, applies a penalty to attack (I assume you mean "until the end of your next turn"), slides the target (as opposed to the more limited push or pull), and lets you spend a healing surge? That strikes me as overpowered, especially when compared to something like fey step or elven accuracy. I'd reduce the power and increase the versatility of it, like thus. Voice of Wrath Standard Action - Ranged 10 Target: One creature Attack: Charisma vs. Will Hit: 1d6 + Charisma modifier psychic damage. Choose one of the following effects to apply to the target. - Curse of Fatigue: The target is slowed until the end of your next turn. - Curse of Retribution: The target is marked until the end of your next turn. - Curse of Weakness: The target is weakened until the end of your next turn. - Curse of Wrath: The target suffers an additional 5 psychic damage. Then, you could add in some feats like "Twofold Curse" (which allow the application of two curse effects, rather than just one) or "Enduring Curse" (which changes the effects from end of next turn to save ends), etc.