http://media.gleemax.com/podcasts/DnD_Episode25.mp3
As well as the preview article here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4news/20080910
October will also see the Domains of Dread return to D&D, with the long-time Ravenloft concept being folded into the core now.
And completely agree with pretty much all of your points. Weekend In Hell is a terrible idea, altogether. Transforming Ravenloft from a Weekend In Hell adventure locale to a cogent setting in the latter days of 2E was the best thing to have ever happened to Ravenloft. Ravenloft is vastly better as a unified world rather than hacked apart and split up around the Shadowfell. Not to mention that, as pointed out, the Shadowfell wasn't really described as a place where villages of common human folk dwell, another vital element of Ravenloft.
In addition, demiplanes still exist in the 4E cosmology. We know this to be a fact because Rich Baker, on the Forgotten Realms forums, said just that. So why not keep the keep the most infamous demiplane of them all as a demiplane? Where's the sense in chopping that setting up and scattering the pieces all over the various Shadowfells?
I can't tell you how unbelievably disappointed by this I am. As angry as I was about the changes made to the Forgotten Realms, it doesn't compare at all to what I feel about this, as Ravenloft as we knew it has been pretty much obliterated. It's been reduced from an amazing campaign setting to a pale shadow of what it was.
I played Ravenloft in the "Weekend in Hell Ravenloft adventure" period, I weaned my players on adventures like Feast of Goblyns, I run them through House of Strahd and through adventures in Chilling Tales.
I appreciate fans of the WW version might not be thrilled, but to me Ravenloft is the mists and stranger in a strange land.
As always YMMV ;)
Admittedly I'm only passingly familiar with the Arthaus(?) stuff but what prevents that being emulated?
Nevermind that I shouldn't have to piece together a former favorite campaign setting of mine, when it wasn't necessary to hack it apart into pieces in order to provide a Weekend In Hell adventure in the first place.
As for the Arthaus stuff, there was very little difference between it and the 2E Ravenloft stuff. It was just a continuation of what came before. Not a complete reinvention/evisceration of what came before.
And if the domains are detailed enough is there any reason you can't run it like the books you favour?
Admittedly I'm only passingly familiar with the Arthaus(?) stuff but what prevents that being emulated?
This has a good point. I already have the books, why can't I just use them?
I can. And it's not a problem if I want to play old editions. Or do my own 4e conversions.
Of course, doing it all myself defeats the purpose of using a pre-published campaign setting.
I'd like a campaign setting or update to be as open as possible and be accessible for styles of play. The ArtHaus books assumed native characters but nothing at all prevented one-shot adventures or boss dungeon crawls. And the books provided the darklord stats so there was always the possibility of doing a traditional seek-and-destroy adventure.
From the podcast they seem to be pushing away from native characters AND killing darklords to just a single option: escape. And I really don't like limits.
And, more to the point for WotC, it's not the kind of product I want to buy. I'm not interested in them dumbing down my favourite world to make it a small part of their larger base campaign (the opposite of the Planescape-effect where they take a small part of the generic world and blow it up into a full campaign).
I'm an avid Ravenloft addict. I own almost all the novels (missing some due to flood), the minatures (metal and plastic), every printed campaign setting & accessory, and even almost all the adventures and dragon & dungeon magazine articles.
Heck, I even have the mouse pad.
But if they're reducing Ravenloft beyond recognition to its simplest least imaginative husk... I'm not going to pay for Manual of the Planes for that, and I'm sure and spit not going to pay for some digital magazine.
Well, I might wait six months or so until they've released two or three and snag 'em all with a single monthly payment.
well I have to say I like it. I played in 2e and 3e atleast a dozen games, and only once did I live there. I don't mind the weekend in hell idea at all, but I understand how you could be in a diffrent frame of mind.I do have to ask though howmany people hunted and killed Dread Lords??!?!?!?!? I know 1 story of it and I still laugh at it. 24th level characters took on a someteenth level fighter dark/lord and killed him before he got to go. Then the GM decided that the dark powers booted the PCs out, so they went to sigil. Then they started hunting gods...
Why rip RL of its essence to add it to Shadowfell?
That some parts of Shadowfell have RL traits, it's extremely cool, but do not scrap the RL setting in the process.
Joël
Let me preface my argument by saying that I love RL: I own every single Arthaus product, minus the remake of the monster book and the adventure series. I loved them. I was said to see the gazetteer end too soon, and was hoping to see where it would go next. I own a lot of 2nd ed ravenloft, I've done internet research to fill in the gaps, loved the kargatane website, etc etc.
But ravenloft is fundamentally predicated on the weekend in hell concept. The domains do not make up a world the way any other world does. That was part of the settings strengths, but it could also be a failing. The gazetteer went a long way towards smoothing out the problems, but there was only so much to be done. Ravenloft was always a patchwork quilt, more so even than setting like FR that have their own "I'm going to put ancient egypt over here and arabia over there" problems.
And that's because the game started with the absolutely fantastic adventure at castle ravenloft. And it expanded with the house of gryphon hill. And each new piece of the puzzle, minus a rare few domains like Darkon, was deliberately intended to be a weekend in hell.
It made for a unique and fantastic setting that I will sorely miss as a complete world. But it was always predicated on the one-shot adventure premise, and, short of a reboot of the setting, that was never going to change. It had it's strengths, and it had it's weaknesses and inconsistent levels of awesomeness. Arthaus did a lot to fix the problems, and I have kept all of their products with me when a lot of other stuff has been left along the way. But I think it's unfair to the true brilliance of the setting to say that the "weekend in hell" premise isn't a fantastic premise and the basic kernel of genius that started ravenloft on it's road to glory. Fundamentally, it's the part that is most worth keeping, in my opinion, just like they haven't dropped waterdeep from FR or you couldn't take sigil away from planescape, or defiling and preserving out of darksun.
After all in the FRCG it states:
Most demiplanes form as the result of deliberate creation, but a few simply exist as folds or pockets in the planar arrangement.
A demiplane has any traits it's creator sets.
Most demiplanes exist for a purpose, however and their form follows their function.
Similarly a demiplane is usually tied to a specific place on another plane or dominion. The demiplane's use determines it's location and access poiints. How the is used can affect how it changes and what happens there.
Bel
But it was always predicated on the one-shot adventure premise, and, short of a reboot of the setting, that was never going to change.
That hasn't been true since the latter half of 2nd edition.
But I think it's unfair to the true brilliance of the setting to say that the "weekend in hell" premise isn't a fantastic premise and the basic kernel of genius that started ravenloft on it's road to glory.
If people like that, that's fine. There was nothing to prevent them from using it as such. That doesn't mean, however, that it wasn't a successful campaign setting in-and-of itself or that the campaign setting side of it had to be excised in order to have the Weekend-In-Hell concept, because both concepts coexisted side-by-side just fine for years. You don't have to get rid of one to get the other.
Fundamentally, it's the part that is most worth keeping, in my opinion, just like they haven't dropped waterdeep from FR or you couldn't take sigil away from planescape, or defiling and preserving out of darksun.
Nope, but what you're talking about it akin to taking out the Weave, Mystra, and the Harpers from Forgotten Realms. Or the Factions, Lady of Pain, and Blood War from Planescape. Or the harsh desert landscape, Thri-Kreen, and psionics from Dark Sun. Why the need to jettison other parts of the setting which're just as important? It's a vital element, but nobody's claiming that it should've been removed. And keeping it, or accentuating it doesn't mean you have to get rid of all the OTHER vital elements which make the Ravenloft setting what it is.
I'm going to withold judgement till I read the article in Dragon, too many times I have seen something announced by WotC and immediately denounced by a portion of the community without any concept of what they're denouncing aside from some speculation and conjecture.
After all in the FRCG it states:
Bel
This news has struck me as a bit odd, as I've known for a while, now, that demiplanes still exist. So when I heard this news, I thought it was incredibly strange that despite the sweeping cosmological changes, that they'd keep the demiplane concept around, but not the most infamous demiplane of them all. Hopefully they kept the demiplane concept around for a reason, and we'll see the return of the Demiplane of Dread. And hopefully, these Domains of Dread, while similar, aren't the chopped up remains of the Ravenloft setting. We'll see.
It made for a unique and fantastic setting that I will sorely miss as a complete world. But it was always predicated on the one-shot adventure premise, and, short of a reboot of the setting, that was never going to change. It had it's strengths, and it had it's weaknesses and inconsistent levels of awesomeness. Arthaus did a lot to fix the problems, and I have kept all of their products with me when a lot of other stuff has been left along the way. But I think it's unfair to the true brilliance of the setting to say that the "weekend in hell" premise isn't a fantastic premise and the basic kernel of genius that started ravenloft on it's road to glory. Fundamentally, it's the part that is most worth keeping, in my opinion, just like they haven't dropped waterdeep from FR or you couldn't take sigil away from planescape, or defiling and preserving out of darksun.
I'd similarly denounce a Ravenloft update that removed the ability to have Weekends in Hell.
But as key kernels go it isn't much.
Dragonlance's key concept was essentially as an Adventure Path designed to add more dragons to the game.
If they decided to do take Dragonlance back to its simplist element -what they're doing to Ravenloft- imagine the fan outcry. Only releasing adventure as a big mega-adventure that remakes the continent while only releasing tidbits and glimpses of the overall world.
Yes, some fans would be happy just to receive the attention and that their favourite product line receives attention.
I'm going to withold judgement till I read the article in Dragon, too many times I have seen something announced by WotC and immediately denounced by a portion of the community without any concept of what they're denouncing aside from some speculation and conjecture.
Also a very point.
I might normally agree more with this but, to judge the article, I'll need to pay for it and so far I have not been so blown away by the articles for this full-time college student and newlywed to spend some of my limited hard-earned cash on the magazine when, from all of what I've heard, I'll loath the result.
I bring it up because it is being pushed and advertised. It is being used as a plug of D&DI. It is a selling point.
It's a deliberate response to what has been revealed. It's feedback. While it's unlikely to be aknowledged or even read I'm still going to post to express my ideas and dissapointment so far (since so much of the Ravenloft community no longer posts here after the board merger and their comments are essentially silent).
So if I'm being unfair to future article let me know.
Reassure me that Ravenloft isn't just being pulled apart for scraps and scavanged for ideas. Let me know that the setting and products of the past aren't being wholey retconned out of existance and, like other settings, I'll still be able to use old products to write new adventures.
Give me a reason to invest my money into your products and not become an old-edition hold-over.
I do have to ask though howmany people hunted and killed Dread Lords??!?!?!?!?
More than people seem to think, since the adventure that was the genesis of the entire setting was about killing the most iconic of the darklords, Strahd von Zarovich.
That said, there's one simple solution to this: consider the Shadowfell to be "Ravenloft." The Shadowfell becomes your main planar entity where the domains reside, and you can simply drop in the domains you want.
Bel
Dreygu and The Ghoul are definitely among the coolest Darklords yet created. I just love the nature of Ivania's particular curse, and the evocative description of how she is made to suffer every night is beautiful.
So they are using Dragon Magazine as the vehicle for 4E Ravenloft? If so I may have to subscribe then! 
18DELTA
The party arrives at the adventure location on the Material Plane. They find a site that is desolate and empty, a light mist everywhere, obscuring the ruins. The atmosphere is slightly creepy, but there is no real danger.
But then night falls, and so do the Mists. And when they rise, the party finds that their surroundings have changed. They're in the same physical location, but everything is different, darker, more dangerous.
Could be played much like the Silent Hill games. Begin with the slightly creepy but not too dangerous mortal domain, then shift to the terrifying night-time Domain of Dread.
It is my hope that these "Domains of Dread" will continue to be released as isolated domains while WotC wrangles with the legal ramifications of getting the license back from White Wolf, and what it takes to legally release an official Ravenloft campaign setting, hopefully in 2010. This gives the designers a chance to get more of a feel for what can be done with the new rules and how to answer the questions that the setting will demand answers for.
The Template system may need to be looked at in more detail for some of the customized monsters that Ravenloft featured (especially factoring in some of the Van Richten's guides, where age of the Undead factored into their power). Rules involving taint and power checks would need to be updated. Madness rules would need to be developed. I don't know if the system is ready for the demands that the Ravenloft community would have, but I know that they will be able to make it work. It's just going to take time. I'm willing to give them some time for now...
WotC does not need to rangle and rights back from White Wolf. They never sold them. They "leased" (or whatever the right term is) the rights to White Wolf, and White Wolfs lease has long since ran out. This is why White Wolf no longer publishes any new Ravenloft material. It is also why it is WotC that published the 3.5 Expadition to Castle Ravenloft adventure.
So what does that say for White Wolf created content for 3.5? What legal rights to they retain over that?
So what does that say for White Wolf created content for 3.5? What legal rights to they retain over that?
White Wolf is no longer aloud to release any new Ravenloft material (for profit) whatsoever. That is why they have not published a Ravenloft book in quite some time. They actually had one book which they were going to publish, which they were not able to due to their "lease" (or whatever it is called in copyright law) running out. I'm pretty sure they ended up being forced to release the book as a free PDF document.
Take the "Core" Ravenloft setting (Darkon, Ravneloft, Falkovnia, the whole quilt). Strip out the planar bizarreness that makes Ravenloft such a hinky sort of place (closing domains, no summoning). Rewrite the Darklord's backgrounds so that they're natives, not exiles (not as hard as you'd think, seeing as White Wolf couldn't mention any other setting by name anyways). Strip out bizarre domains like Bleutspur; redo the them as "true" Domains of Dread.
Ta-da. Ravenloft the campaign setting. A "natural" plane, just like Toril or Greyhawk... just innately dark in character, with natural laws of magic that bind the wicked to the land and grant them power, gives curses a life of their own, and renders the border between the normal world and the Shadowfell whisper thin.
It would take a good deal more than than I'm flippantly suggesting mind you, but that's my core concept. If you're truly serious about hating Weekend in Hell adventures from Ravenloft, rewrite the setting to get rid of all the vestiges of it. No more sealing the borders; no more exiles from another plane imprisoning us all. Make it a "real", albeit Gothic and strange, world. The Shadowfell (aka the Mists?) are separated from this world but a paper-thin boundary that can break at a moment's notice... but Ravenloft is at its essence a "normal" plane.
WotC does not need to rangle and rights back from White Wolf. They never sold them. They "leased" (or whatever the right term is) the rights to White Wolf, and White Wolfs lease has long since ran out. This is why White Wolf no longer publishes any new Ravenloft material.
Correct. For a period of time (2001-2005), White Wolf had a license to create and distribute Ravenloft settings books in 3rd edition, then in 3.5 ed.
Why WW/WotC didn’t renew the license? The official answer is “the developers did not feel that they could do much more with Ravenloft, as books subjects were becoming less and less generalized, so they decided to not renew the license.” (is it true or is it corporate BS, we do not know)
Because also, importantly, the sales of the Gazetteers were said to be “disappointing”.
It is also why it is WotC that published the 3.5 Expadition to Castle Ravenloft adventure.
Those facts may be not related at all. EtCR is something else than the RL setting, so it probably could have been published earlier by WotC (would have been indelicate to his partner WW perhaps, but the idea is not impossible).
My nitpick point is that it was never said by any WotC official that EtCR was made possible only when the WW license ended
So what does that say for White Wolf created content for 3.5? What legal rights to they retain over that?
We do not know for sure as there were never any official comments on this.
However the end of license announcement spoke of “an agreement for the reversion of rights”.
My guess and understanding over that kind of contract: as we speak, WW probably has no rights over the material it created. So now WotC can probably use anything created during the WW era.
Remember, WotC lend their RL toys to WW, but these toys are still WotC’s property.
White Wolf is no longer aloud to release any new Ravenloft material (for profit) whatsoever.
Nitpick: profit isn’t a thing to consider. They do not have the rights anymore, period.
They actually had one book which they were going to publish, which they were not able to due to their "lease" (or whatever it is called in copyright law) running out. I'm pretty sure they ended up being forced to release the book as a free PDF document.
The release of the last 3e RL book by WW, Van Richten’s guide to the Mists, was probably something special, negotiated when the license ended (this book was est. 90 % - 95 % finished when the license end announcement came out).
That WW released it as a free PDF can be explained by many possibilities: “end of license and we have no rights to publish anything else”, or “end of license and/so we do not want to finish it, so here’s the nearly finished version”, or any other possibility/combination.
Joël
actually when they isolate the domains of dread as its own articles promises at least to me that we may infact get a annual that throws all those domains together. at least im hopeful for it.
if they got rid of borders, fear, maddness, and horror, curses, powers checks, i wouldn't be suprised as most of tha seems to have nothing to do with the new fourth edition. i see that from the huge alignment change. thus morality and ethics as we know them from the 2nd-3rd game probably don't count.
does that mean that if wizards can't keep it like the previous editions they shouldn't touch it at all? hardly.
just a passing thought. ;)