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| #1mistrlittlejeansNov 11, 2008 11:43:45 | Does anyone have a good idea for running these checks in 4e? I've contemplated using a edited version of the S&S rules, but it's difficult with all the saves being rolled into a general "saving throw" with no modifiers. Any thoughts? |
| #2mistrlittlejeansNov 11, 2008 21:52:25 | No replies - that's a bad sign. Well, if anyone is interested here are some thoughts I've had on the subject. Keep in mind that I'm by no means a game designer, and I'm relatively new to Ravenloft so somethings might be unbalanced which is why i'm interested in feedback. Fear - Use the Frightful Presence attack as listed under dragons. The attack bonus is the monster level + 3. Success = the target is stunned (save ends) and takes - 2 to attacks (save ends). I also think - 2 defenses (save ends) is appropriate as well. Alternatively, you could use the Cause Fear power (cleric 1?). on a hit the target flees their movement plus the monster's Cha mod directly away from the monster. You could throw in the - 2 to att/saves for a more dramatic effect. Horror - This is more difficult to convert. What about making a Will attack with a bonus determined by the DM (the numbers given as Horror Save Triggers in the S & S corebook p. 66 are a good start). Effects aren't nearly as easy as Fear to simplify, but there are 4e substitutes for most of them. For the time being I propose using the same effects table in S & S. Aversion = - 2 attacks/defenses when within 10 squares of the horror source. Fearstruck = - 2 attacks/defenses (save ends) Nausea = -1 healing surge. If you have no surges you take your level in damage. Nightmares = Can't take an extended rest. -1 att per day without an extended rest, up to -4. Obsession = -1 to perception, initiative per day up to -4. Rage = you must attack the subject of your rage (save ends). You must take the most direct route to them, and make melee attacks. You are subject to OA's. Revulsion = works as aversion, but you suffer the penalties whenever you are reminded of the horrific scene (save ends). Fascination = ? Haunted = ? Mental Shock = I was thinking something with Stunned or Petrified (the effect, minus the turning to stone bit). System shock = Attack vs. Fortitude with the same bonus as the horror attack. Lose 1d6 healing surges; if you have no surges left you take the same 1d6*you lvl damage. Madness = Haven't gotten this far yet. Ok, any takers now? |
| #3GiloNov 12, 2008 9:28:48 | Seem like the right path in terms of stats and balance, but I suggest using Keith Baker's idea on the use of disease rules to simulate injuries in 4e. Define any of the above effects that persist outside the encounter as a disease, the benefits are:
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| #4mistrlittlejeansNov 12, 2008 11:12:09 | Seem like the right path in terms of stats and balance, but I suggest using Keith Baker's idea on the use of disease rules to simulate injuries in 4e. This is a very interesting idea. I like it. However, I'm not sure Fear deserves a whole "disease track". Running Fear as the 'Frightful Presence' attack is not instituting new combat states/powers - it's an already existing power applied to more monsters. This makes sense with the Ravenloft idea in general. Horror might warrant a "disease track". I'll have to think about this more. The problem I see with this is that horror checks are usually called for by completely independent scenarios/phenomena. By putting a character on a track where they could slip from a simple "aversion state" all the way to "system shock" just by failing a few rolls seems a bit strange to me. Also, the random effect system in play in S & S is much more attractive than a predictable "track" system. That said, a track system could work, but I think you'd have to implement each track state as something similar to what I've outlined in the previous post anyway. Madness is the best candidate for a "disease track". Corruption also neatly fits. i definitely like the track idea for these two. Again, I'll have to put some more thought into it and see how it plays out. Any ideas for track systems? I'm curious to see what others think of tracks for fear and horror in particular. |
| #5GiloNov 12, 2008 12:08:11 | This is a very interesting idea. I like it. However, I'm not sure Fear deserves a whole "disease track". Running Fear as the 'Frightful Presence' attack is not instituting new combat states/powers - it's an already existing power applied to more monsters. This agreed, I'm separating the effects that occur only in the scope of an encounter (5min time/save-end/end of encounter/end of next turn etc) which do not warrant a disease and the long-term effects. Horror might warrant a "disease track". I'll have to think about this more. The problem I see with this is that horror checks are usually called for by completely independent scenarios/phenomena. The exposure to a disease is not limited to a monster attack or even a combat encounter. It could be achieved from exposure and environment - for example a stay in a torture chamber. You can also define an area hazard that 'infect' the PCs in that area with a Horror disease. By putting a character on a track where they could slip from a simple "aversion state" all the way to "system shock" just by failing a few rolls seems a bit strange to me. Also, the random effect system in play in S & S is much more attractive than a predictable "track" system. That said, a track system could work, but I think you'd have to implement each track state as something similar to what I've outlined in the previous post anyway. I don't think there are many limits on the way you can create this diseases: they can have only one track (if many tracks don't make sense on that practical case) and you can define a track in which the DM roll a dice to decide the effect. The trigger for moving between tracks could be more complex then an attack vs. Will or an endurance check. |
| #6mistrlittlejeansNov 12, 2008 14:51:34 | The exposure to a disease is not limited to a monster attack or even a combat encounter. It could be achieved from exposure and environment - for example a stay in a torture chamber. You can also define an area hazard that 'infect' the PCs in that area with a Horror disease. I agree. I was merely trying to say that I'm not sure Horror really fits with the idea of a disease track. I'm trying to figure out how a track would work. 1. You come upon a gruesome massacre. Gnawed upon human body parts are strewn throughout the tavern. - Horror check - failure - you have an aversion to this area. 2. The next day you witness a long time friend change into a werewolf. - Horror check - failure - move up the track to the next step which is ? fearstruck? So on and so forth. To do this you still have to define all the stages of the Horror disease. In my opinion, the randomness of the S & S systems is a better fit for something like horror. In my example the massacre and the transformation are independent events and so each deserves an individual reaction, not a gradual scaling up of the Horror state. Either way you must define aversion, fearstruck, nauseated etc. In my opinion a random reaction better fits the spirit of something like horror. If 8 different Horror reactions are too many you could always reduce the number to 4 or so. As for multi-track diseases, while the idea is valid I think it is against 4e's push for simplicity IMO. I do think that Madness and Corruption are the perfect candidates for Diseases, however, and this should be fleshed out further. If you have some Diseases worked out I'd be interested to see them. |
| #7The_JesterNov 12, 2008 16:46:19 | Okay, I'm going to reply with a link: http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5314 On that message board is an update of Ravenloft for 4e with a DM guide that has fear and horror, treating fear like a one-shot condition or penalty in combat while horror is treated like a hazard. Fear Horror |
| #8mistrlittlejeansNov 13, 2008 16:21:39 | Okay, I'm going to reply with a link: this is very interesting material. A couple of questions. Has it been playtested at all? Second, I noticed the Curse of the Beast. Is that what people are using for Lycanthropy now? Is Moon Fury as in the MM not used anymore? |
| #9Luis_CarlosNov 14, 2008 14:43:40 | Courage/sanity/judgement could be a fourth saving throw. Types of madness; Violence, Helplessness, Solitude, Self, Supernatural. A warrior could beat better the violence, the rogue the helpssness, the ranger the solitude and the cleric the supernatural. |
| #10The_JesterNov 21, 2008 12:10:09 | this is very interesting material. A couple of questions. Has it been playtested at all? I've run it though play in my homegame, but it hasn't received nearly as much playtesting or feedback as I would like. But it has been updated/changed/revised a crazy amount during its brief life. As it only provides a -1 penalty to hit it's not game breaking but does make some fights harder (which is the intent), but no more than nasty terrain that favours a monster or being poorly equipped. This makes it harder to really 'test'; the truly broken stands out so much easier than the slightly skewered. It has had a tendency to make bad encounters worse (when you're not ready for a fight you also tend to be prone to Fear). Although, having the dice go cold tends to be much worse. In a game where you pretty much always have 45/55 odds of hitting being unable to roll above a 7 really hurts (given the hit/miss math of 10+ hits and 9- misses I've sometimes been tempted to dump d20s for coins...) {Still... I wonder how much really gets playtested in official products. Considering the barbarian has been reputed to have been in the works since very early on, I can't believe it only took a month of fan feedback for someone to notice "hey, with the extra striker damage built-in, multi-classing into barbarian lets you do crazy damage!" } Second, I noticed the Curse of the Beast. Is that what people are using for Lycanthropy now? Is Moon Fury as in the MM not used anymore? Curse of the Beast is really a throw-back to infectious lycanthrope from earlier editions. 4e really shies away from anything that even remotely hinders the players or makes the game "not fun". So it dumps long-held things like being able to be turned into a werewolf when bitten because it's just a darn hassle to have your PC become a were-beast. But being infected with lycanthrope is such a HUGE part of the setting I wanted to be able to bring it in somehow. Hence Curse of the Beast, which does not replace Moon Fury, but works as an alternate ailment. |
| #11mistrlittlejeansNov 22, 2008 15:37:47 | As it only provides a -1 penalty to hit it's not game breaking but does make some fights harder (which is the intent), but no more than nasty terrain that favours a monster or being poorly equipped. I figured as much. Still, I've thought about changing it to a -2 penalty as 4e has the +2/-2 default for bonus/penalty situations. I don't know that it would effect things too much since fear is only temporary. It'd also be a little easier to remember. Curse of the Beast is really a throw-back to infectious lycanthrope from earlier editions. I completely agree with you. I was so disappointed to see Moon Fury took the place of lycanthropy when the MM came out. However, I'm still confused. In your game, if a character is bitten by a werewolf do you roll separately to see if they've contracted Moon Fury and Curse of the Beast? Also, I'm curious to know why you chose insight as the primary skill for Curse of the Beast as well as a number of the ailments you drew up. Any particular logic behind that? In respect to RL's history Curse of the Beast shouldn't be something that can simply be overcome by will, or sheer physical resistance, anyways. Although, the idea of a group of people, or a race, that is immune to lycanthropy is an interesting idea. By the same token do you play vampirism as something that can be overcome by natural means? In old versions of RL these things required a number of spells to remove the curse. Rituals seem like a viable option for removing them in 4e, they just haven't been written yet. I'm toying around with this idea. Obviously they'd have to be pretty high level, at least paragon, or epic if you want to really scare your players. All in all, I really like what you've done and I plan to playtest it more. I'll keep you posted as things progress. |
| #12The_JesterNov 22, 2008 17:31:45 | However, I'm still confused. In your game, if a character is bitten by a werewolf do you roll separately to see if they've contracted Moon Fury and Curse of the Beast? I'd vary depending on if the lycanthrope is a natural werebeast (born and bred) or one that's the result of a curse. The former would likely spread Moon Fury while the latter would spread Curse of the Beast. Also, I'm curious to know why you chose insight as the primary skill for Curse of the Beast as well as a number of the ailments you drew up. Any particular logic behind that? Been a while since I looked... I remember making Madness related to Insight (as it's mental illness not a physical disease so Endurance no longer fit) but I believe I still used Endurance for most curses. The Beast might be an exception (it is a matter of self control rather than physical restraint) or it could just be a mistake from my cut-n-pasting the tables. I'm inclined to think it was intentional for the reasons stated above (especially since the Curse of Madness also uses Insight). Being physically strong does not help you control the beast inside; it's willpower that would allow you to contain those urges. Willpower being represented by an Insight skill check rather than making a whole new mechanic for testing your Will defence or just rolling a saving throw. In respect to RL's history Curse of the Beast shouldn't be something that can simply be overcome by will, or sheer physical resistance, anyways. Although, the idea of a group of people, or a race, that is immune to lycanthropy is an interesting idea. Very true, but I am limited by the mechanics and guidelines of 4e. I wanted to make rules that felt like Ravenloft but played like 4e. Breaking to far away from either meant automatic failure. So while, traditionally, being able to make a couple skill checks and shake off most of the effects of lycanthrope is counter to Ravenloft, having a lengthy process of curing a curse is anti-4e. So I took the middle road and had curses manageable through skill checks but not fully removable. By the same token do you play vampirism as something that can be overcome by natural means? In old versions of RL these things required a number of spells to remove the curse. Rituals seem like a viable option for removing them in 4e, they just haven't been written yet. I'm toying around with this idea. Obviously they'd have to be pretty high level, at least paragon, or epic if you want to really scare your players. Haven't done too much with monsters yet (it's a later project but I'd like a book of 'Loft monsters with alternate powers and some new rules like staking). For vampires... they're monsters and not players so you have to go out of your way to make a PC into a vampire. If that happens they're fairly dead. However, I suppose the Raise Dead ritual could also be used to restore someone from undeath as easily as death. |
| #13mistrlittlejeansNov 22, 2008 22:11:23 | I'd vary depending on if the lycanthrope is a natural werebeast (born and bred) or one that's the result of a curse. What about a Loup du noir? The BBEG in Dark of the Moon is a Loup du noir and I plan on going with lycanthropy. There's a few later scenes which are much cooler if the BBEG has the power to force infected PC's to change. I'm inclined to think it was intentional for the reasons stated above (especially since the Curse of Madness also uses Insight). Being physically strong does not help you control the beast inside; it's willpower that would allow you to contain those urges. Willpower being represented by an Insight skill check rather than making a whole new mechanic for testing your Will defence or just rolling a saving throw. I agree. I toyed with making a will save mechanic but it's a bother. Insight is a much better option. Very true, but I am limited by the mechanics and guidelines of 4e. I wanted to make rules that felt like Ravenloft but played like 4e. Breaking to far away from either meant automatic failure. I agree with you here too. I like the idea of Disease tracks for certain conditions. However, I think Rituals are a good way around permanent curses like Lycanthropy and possibly Vampirism. I'm not completely familiar with the rituals, but it's possible that a combination of them, much like the combination of spells required in 2e, could suffice. I don't think it'd be too much trouble to make the appropriate rituals for this. They would even make for great plot hooks. Haven't done too much with monsters yet (it's a later project but I'd like a book of 'Loft monsters with alternate powers and some new rules like staking). This is true too. If I remember correctly from Expedition to Castle RL 3.5e, anyone bitten by a vampire comes under Straud's control. There's probably no need for extensive vampirism rules unless you want vampire PC's. Although, making the appropriate rituals would make for some great plot hooks. |
| #14mistrlittlejeansNov 22, 2008 22:23:46 | I knew I should have read through the rituals before; there's already a Remove Curse and a Remove Affliction ritual. These two in conjunction would work perfectly for removing lycanthropy. Cure disease is level 6, Remove Affliction level 8. Perhaps higher level rituals would better fit RL, but you can always restrict their access. |
| #15The_JesterNov 23, 2008 11:46:31 | What about a Loup du noir? The BBEG in Dark of the Moon is a Loup du noir and I plan on going with lycanthropy. There's a few later scenes which are much cooler if the BBEG has the power to force infected PC's to change. I'd make that a power of the BBEG rather than an inherent part of the curse. Since it only happens when triggered by the master wolf, it can be one of his abilities and part of his statblock. A burst effect usable once per encounter (or recharges rarely or when bloodied) that forces characters infected with moon fever or curse of the beast to instantly transform into wolves dominated by the BBEG (save ends). It should likely have a large burst effect and be an attack vs will. |
| #16mistrlittlejeansNov 24, 2008 9:35:46 | I'd make that a power of the BBEG rather than an inherent part of the curse. Since it only happens when triggered by the master wolf, it can be one of his abilities and part of his statblock. That's an interesting take on it. I'm not sure how I feel about limiting powers like this. Originally, it was something that the PC's had no control over. That was the whole point - to make them feel like they'd lost control, allowing panic to rush over them. By making it an attack, most likely one that wouldn't last for more than a round or two if it hits, it greatly reduces the effectiveness as a story piece. Your idea fits with 4e very well, but this is a point that I disagree with 4e. If I went with the attack idea, I'd want the BBEG's attack bonus for this power to be extremely high, with at least a 75% chance of success. It'd probably be something like - Hit = you transform and are dominated (save ends), you are dazed after first save (save ends) Miss = you are dazed (save ends) Still, this seems so weak. |
| #17Luis_CarlosNov 25, 2008 9:23:18 | What if a reserver of mind health points? Someone like the points of sanity from the "Call of Cthulhu". |
| #18mistrlittlejeansDec 09, 2008 9:43:30 | That's an interesting take on it. I'm not sure how I feel about limiting powers like this. Originally, it was something that the PC's had no control over. That was the whole point - to make them feel like they'd lost control, allowing panic to rush over them. By making it an attack, most likely one that wouldn't last for more than a round or two if it hits, it greatly reduces the effectiveness as a story piece. Your idea fits with 4e very well, but this is a point that I disagree with 4e. Quoting myself, hehe ;) I finished running Dark of the Moon this past weekend. The ending was fantastic! Thanks for everyone's help over the last few weeks. The Fear/Horror/Madness checks were a breeze and we really got the hang of them by the end. Also, the final climactic battle with Gregor Zolnik was the most epic encounter we've had yet. I went with the idea of using a burst power for the Curse of the Dark of the Moon. It worked fantastically. The power hit everyone that was infected! That's 3 out of 4 PC's. The remaining PC (the wizard) almost shite his pants. Fortunately, the wizard was the one not infected because he had the means to retreat safely and think up a plan. Gregor was a blast to run as a wolf. He new minions stayed wolves for a good 5-6 rounds (once turned I didn't grant saving throws until Gregor had been weakened as per the storyline). The other players were really losing hope until the wizard came through. Now we have a 2 month hiatus, but when we return my players will find themselves in...... Barovia!!! I can't wait. |
| #19The_JesterDec 10, 2008 10:51:53 | Did you use a regular burst attack for Gregor or the 75% hit one? Glad you had fun! |
| #20mistrlittlejeansDec 10, 2008 23:55:53 | Here's what I came up with for Gregor, in wolf form. I apologize for the formatting mess. The Black Wolf (Gregor) Level 8 Solo Skirmisher Medium natural humanoid XP 1,750 Initiative +11 Senses Perception +13, low-light vision HP 368 Bloodied 184 Regeneration 5 (if the Black Wolf takes damage from a silver weapon, its regeneration doesn't function on its next turn) AC 24 Fortitude 24, Reflex 22, Will 23 Saving Throws +5 Speed 8 Action Points 2 x Bite (standard; at-will) Fear, Weapon +13 vs. AC; 2d8+5 damage, and the target takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls (save ends). r Double Attack (standard; at-will) The Black Wolf makes two bite attacks. r Lupine Charge (standard; recharge 5,6) The Black Wolf moves up to 8 squares and makes two bite attacks at any point during the move without provoking an OA. r Lupine Instinct (immediate reaction, when an enemy attacks and misses) The Black Wolf can shift up to 3 squares. r Ferocious Growl (minor; 1/round; at-will) +11 vs. Reflex; the target is pushed 2 squares. ] Maddening Howl (standard; encounter) Fear Close Blast 5; +11 vs. Will; 1d10+4 psychic damage, and the target is stunned until the end of the Black Wolf's next turn. Aftereffect: The target takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls (save ends). ] Curse of the Dark Moon (free, when first bloodied) Charm Close Burst 10; +13 vs. Will against targets infected with lycanthropy; target is dominated (save ends); Miss: target is stunned (save ends).***** Alignment Evil Languagues - Skills Nature +11, Stealth +11 Str 22 (+10) Dex 17 (+8) Wis 18 (+8) Con 20 (+9) Int 14 (+6) Cha 21 (+9) |
| #21The_JesterDec 11, 2008 14:47:36 | Wow, he's got alot of attacks for a heroic monster. But he is a solo... Any other feedback you'd like to share? |
| #22mistrlittlejeansDec 13, 2008 8:30:02 | Wow, he's got alot of attacks for a heroic monster. But he is a solo... I just went off the solo monster design suggestions in the DMG and what I saw in the MM. The Dark of the Moon Curse attack was more of a plot mechanic than an attack - I just wrote it up as an attack using your (The_Jester) suggestions. In the end, I don't really think The Wolf was overpowered, but I honestly didn't expect his Maddening Howl to hit every PC on his opening turn and the Curse Attack to hit all 3 infected PC's. It was intense. The opening round scared the bejesus out of my PC's, which is exactly what I wanted. After a couple rounds they settled in, got in some good attacks, and were making progress. When the Curse hit, that initial feeling of loss of control and fear crept back in. Overall, it was a great battle. This was my first Solo Monster battle too, and I think it went ok. I've read some threads about solo monster encounters being too boring; I threw in a hazard (modified Frozen Ice Sheet from DMG) to add a twist. I also think that giving the Wolf attacks with movement really made a difference. I completely understand how fighting a monster with almost 400 HP would get boring if it just sits in one spot the whole time. |