http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdod/2009May
The "Domain of Dread: Graefmotte, the Font of Sorrows" article briefly explains this:
[INDENT]Time hides tragedies, burying them in annals and
histories scarcely read, but the Shadowfell is not so
eager to relinquish these tales. Its realm holds vestiges
from times past—seething pockets of human
error and wickedness. Dark lords abound on this
plane, and each was pulled into a misty domain to
capture in amber their mortal failings.
[/INDENT]
The Domains of Dread have always been in some sort of "pocket dimension", but I don't recall if they were linked directly to the Shadow Plane before? I just sort of assumed that like almost all pocket dimensions it was linked off of the Astral plane.
It makes sense to put it in the Shadowfell in 4th ed. Its dark and its evil and its the perfect resting ground for the dark powers. I also recall a line from the 4th ed Manual of the Planes in which it mentions Ravenloft being there.
I'm just happy they're thinking up new domains of dread and not letting the franchise die. They could put it in my George Foreman Grill if it means we get more Ravenloft :D
I can even see how this works into the Dark Powers hands. Where once their influence was confined to an isolated demiplane, now their misty fingers are spread throughout the mortal realm.
They planned this from the beginning. :evillaugh
From what we've seen so far in the two new Domains of Dread in Dragon Magazine online, they've taken a lot of concepts from the Ravenloft setting and folded them into the core cosmology. But these domains don't appear to be directly connected to Ravenloft proper. If and when the Ravenloft setting is revived for 4e, they'll have to address this, but for now, there's one main issue:
From the recently updated FraternityOfShadows.com FAQ:
In 4th Edition, it is unclear where the Ravenloft setting proper fits in the new cosmology. The 4E Manual of the Planes presents Domains of Dread as pockets in the Shadowfell, but since each world has its own, unconnected Shadowfell, walking from a Taladas-Shadowfell Falkovnia to an Oerth-Shadowfell Darkon would be impossible
Also, putting Ravenloft in the Shadowfell would seem to preclude it from having it's OWN shadowfell, and feywild, etc...
i do hope they don't muck it up by giving it its own shadowfell and feywild. it just sounds comical.
i wouldn't put much stock into what FOS is saying about ravenloft, cept for 3rd edition stuff.
Well, we're basically just saying, "nobody knows yet what WotC will do." If you disagree, please let us know what WotC has in mind, and we'll put it in the FAQ.
i do hope they don't muck it up by giving it its own shadowfell and feywild. it just sounds comical.
Not sure why. The other settings have them, why not Ravenloft?
Over all, like this
Material plane {where we are.}-Near Ethereal {Most ghost exist here}-Deep Ethereal {Legendary undead cities or hidden lich towers}-Domains of Dread
What is funny is, the deeper in to the ethereal you go the foggier things look. After you enter the deep ethereal, you can’t see the material plane anymore.
If the fog clears, your screwed!
If you want to know my theory on how the domain started, just ask.
Material plane {where we are.}-Near Ethereal {Most ghost exist here}-Deep Ethereal {Legendary undead cities or hidden lich towers}-Domains of Dread
Yup, except that there's another Near Ethereal on the Ravenloft side as well. Spells like Ethereal Jaunt cast in Ravenloft can take you into Ravenloft's Near Ethereal, but you can never reach the Deep Ethereal from the Ravenloft side. (As you said, the Near is where ghosts exist, and Ravenloft without ghosts is... well, I can't even picture it.
)my only point is that i don't think they have as much of a connection to wotc as they did with arthaus. thus what they have to say is conjecture as much a guess as what you or i may have, since its not coming from any official sourse.
as far as ravenloft having its own shadowfell, the setting is already dark doom and gloom, a step further in that direction would just be campy. and on a second note the demiplanes in the shadowfell, hence shadowfell of the shadowfell?
i do pose a question however, in the first 4th edition of domains of dread the beginning of the article mentions a place called the shadowrealm and not the shadowfell. an error?
my only point is that i don't think they have as much of a connection to wotc as they did with arthaus. thus what they have to say is conjecture as much a guess as what you or i may have, since its not coming from any official sourse.
Absolutely. The FoS is and always has been a fan site. We have been lucky enough to have some of the ArtHaus authors stop by and give some inside info from time to time, but there's never been any official connection to ArtHaus or WotC. (Note that I say "we" here, because I've recently been drafted into service over there as the website admin. But I'm not speaking in any official capacity here, just saying the same thing I would've said as a bystander.)
The point I'm trying to make is that "what they have to say" at the moment is nothing at all. We're not advancing any point of view on where RL might be in the 4e cosmology because we simply don't know how it fits, given what WotC has already released. We have published a completely unofficial 4e RL conversion manual, but even that manual carefully avoids saying where RL is located for this very reason.
The FAQ entry I quoted (which I contributed to myself, for the sake of transparency) is based on the FoS's collective interpretation of the info in the 4e Manual of the Planes, and the two 4e Domains of Dread released in Dragon thus far, which is currently all we as fans have to go on as far as WotC's plans for 4e RL go.
The facts as we know them are:
- something very similar to Ravenloft Island of Terror domains exist in the Shadowfell.
- each world (Faerun, Eberron, etc.) has its own Shadowfell, and they don't connect to each other.
Hence, unless WotC decides to break their own rules, a unified Ravenloft as we knew it in past editions (i.e. a core formed of domains from various worlds, connected via the Mists to various clusters and island domains from various worlds) can't exist in the Shadowfell.
as far as ravenloft having its own shadowfell, the setting is already dark doom and gloom, a step further in that direction would just be campy.
The thing is not ALL of Ravenloft is dark doom and gloom. At least not as dark as the Shadowfell has been described:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20081124
"the domain of the dead, the final stage of the soul’s journey before moving onto the unknown." ... "The Shadowfell mutes light sources, reducing the radius illuminated by 50 percent." ... "A place of deep shadows, of familiar yet alien landscapes, of vistas that snatch the breath, and of mind-rending visions, the Shadowfell is the gloomy reflection of the natural world. It is a plane dimmed and dulled by a pervasive and insidious pall. The home of the dead, the realm of the forsaken, a haven of the lost and the twisted, the birthplace of wretched creatures famous for their grief and sorrow—the Plane of Shadow is all this and more."
Does this sound like a place that could support the grand balls of Dementlieu, or lofty University of Il Aluk? or the joy of a vistani prastonata dance? Or the festive harvest festival of Invidia? Ravenloft is dark, yes, but at first glance, it's a normal world with mostly normal people in it, living mostly normal lives. The Shadowfell is certainly a step beyond that into darkness, and I won't disagree that it's a bit campy, but it's the Plane of Shadow, it's probably going to be a little over the top no matter what you do.
and on a second note the demiplanes in the shadowfell, hence shadowfell of the shadowfell?
Well, that's exactly what I'm getting at. The Demiplane as we know it can't exist in the Shadowfell as described. WotC may just keep releasing new isolated weekend in horror domains of dread, and that's fine. But if they start to use the old domains, they'll need an explanation that fits what they've already laid out. And in my opinion, it would be nice if RL had its own Plane of Shadow, so it would be nice if they find another place for it than the Shadowfell, rather than hack in an exception that links the Shadowfells together. Because I agree, the Shadowfell's Shadowfell is just getting silly.
second i would love to take the oppertunity to tell you while i have much love for FoS, i would be on could nine if i could line up the editor and art director of arthaus in charge of ravenloft, and give them a 3 stooges slap for thier poor work. ive never wanted to spit in somones face as much as those two.
that out of the way, on to somthing more constructive.
in previous posts i had my own ideas on how demiplanes would work with the shadowfell and the orgininal material plane realms, i'll try to shrink it down to thinking that while there are many shadowfells certain parts of the shadowfells exist exclusivly to the plane of shadow. that may include demiplanes. i would cite the example of heavens bones where kartakass, colonial america and londen were bordered by ethereal mist and thus travel between those realms wasn't an issue.
i tried and failed to use the "doughnuts" as an example, but i'll try again. imagine the hole of a doughnut as the demiplane of a shadowfell doughnut, starting with
regular= "points of light"
chololate="forgotten realms"
frosted "ebberronne"
the holes in the middle of the doughnuts are the demiplanes existing through all and touching/infecting everything while not being a part of anything.
the nature of demiplanes being constructed planes of existance i think they can be modeled off of any plane, hence the shadow rift existing as a mirror of the feywilde, because its ment to.
i think the solid rules that we can only hope are true are actual printed book text, rather then anything even the devs make guesses at. losing the ki powers are lessons learned in how permenent a ruling by the devs can be.
first and foremost, thank you for your polite post :D
Phew... I wrote that pretty late last night, and was hoping it came across as intended. Thanks right back at you. :D
second i would love to take the oppertunity to tell you while i have much love for FoS, i would be on could nine if i could line up the editor and art director of arthaus in charge of ravenloft, and give them a 3 stooges slap for thier poor work. ive never wanted to spit in somones face as much as those two.
Well, for the first, thanks. And for the second, that's between you and them.
Again, the FoS is just a fan site, and had nothing to do with ArtHaus.i would cite the example of heavens bones where kartakass, colonial america and londen were bordered by ethereal mist and thus travel between those realms wasn't an issue.
Yes, Heaven's Bones definitely takes place in a universe with a more traditional Ravenloft than we've seen thus far in 4e. Is it the future of 4e Ravenloft? Or is it 2e or 3e? No way to say really, since it's a novel with no game info.
In any case, the whole topic really matters more to non-Ravenloft Campaigns than Ravenloft ones. In the vast majority of RL games, it doesn't matter where the demiplane is, since you can't get out anyway! ;)
please keep in mind i love FoS, while a may disagree at times with joel
Don't worry, I know what you mean: being in a disagreement with myself keeps me busy too
Joël
Don't worry, I know what you mean: being in a disagreement with myself keeps me busy too
Joël
Having said that, I think that you could do a shadowfell Ravenloft without losing anything. In the original I6 and I10 adventures, you had the mists playing their traditional role in gothic fiction, i.e. keeping the people cut off from the rest of the world. While it was originally envisioned as a weekend in hell setting (with Strahd the main villain), it ended up its own campaign setting (with Azalin as the main villain). The mists became less of a barrier and more of a nuisance to travelers, since travel to the clusters was unreliable, but not impossible (just have to deal with an side quest or adventure on the way to your destination). Every now and again, the mists would reveal a new land (it was actually created, but since it had a history, the perception is it was always within the mists but only just now came into sight.), but basically it was a pretty humdrum place, with either a countryside filled with monsters or an aristocracy that was monstrous in nature. (over-simplification, i know, i love the setting, but i haven't even gotten to my point yet)
The way that it could fit into the 4e cosmology is really one of two ways.
Possibility One: Ravenloft exists in the shadow of the real world.
Barovia (for example) was a county long ago in the real world (be it Toril or Eberron), but the people disappeared without a trace. It's villages and castles were left barren for many years, as neighboring counties believed the place to be haunted. Eventually, these rumors were dismissed, and the region became resettled. Old castle Ravenloft was destroyed many years ago due to a storm, and little remains of it today, its vaults and dungeons having collapsed in on themselves and the stones removed to help build Tempest Hall, the new castle in the region.
Few know the truth, that in actuality the inhabitants of the county were shifted into the Shadowfell, where for generations they have lived in the dim twilight. All the buildings from the real world had tim burton like counterparts, and castle Ravenloft still exists to this day within the realm. The old folk speak of a sunny land where their grandfather's grandfather came from, but the young folk dismiss such tales as fantasies. The people believe they have been cursed by the gods, for the unknown sins of a former ruler, and thus they have turned their backs on their dispassionate tormentors, becoming atheistic in nature. they don't travel far from town because of the twisted monsters and evil demons that inhabit the surrounding lands. they wish to remain hidden from these creatures, and hate outsiders, fearing they are devils in disguise, or will lead the fiends to them unwittingly.
RULE: While characters can travel to the Shadowfell, no person born there can leave. In addition, Dark Lords are trapped within the shadowfell, unable to leave.
Possibility Two: Ravenloft exits in the shadows of the shadowfell
When one wants to get to the shadowfell, one must complete a ritual within the real world at a dark crossing. To get to the demiplane of dread, one could find a dark crossing within the shadowrift, and travel to the deeper darkness, a shadowfell of the shadowfell. This twisted portrait, however, is not a darker reflection, it is the reflection of the reflection (if you translate english to japanese and then back again, you won't get the original story, you'll get something altogether different). The shadowfells reflection of the real world is a world of darkness, but not in the physical sense. by all accounts, it appears normal, but the dark heart of the shadowfell is felt deeply within the land.
you can see where i'm going with this, its the original ravenloft, but instead of existing within the deep ethereal, it exists in the "deep shadowfell", which is basically still existing in the deepness of a transient plane
i would prefer the second option, because i treat ravenloft like planescape, a place where the different campaign settings connect. there's so much you can do with that, and a campaign in ravenloft need not be about fighting a vampire or werewolf, it could be about tearing the planar fabric asunder (particularly if the game takes place while vecna was a resident). it's a land of secrets and creation, as well as darkness and dread.
i don't like the simplified cosmology for the planes, because my second favorite campaign was planescape, and I used everything (i mean it too). I'm very happy they included a brief description of the great wheel, because I think that the justification for cutting something out shouldn't be "people didn't use it", there was a greatness and subtly to the great wheel, and if you disagree with that, well, I certainly could no more convince you of that in a single post than I could convince a republican to become a democrat. i own the 2nd edition books, and i still constantly reference them for info on githyanki, drow, and illithids (amongst other things). my 3rd edition books, those are just sitting in a box somewhere, probably never to be touched again.
Okay, let me start off by saying that ... those are just sitting in a box somewhere, probably never to be touched again.
*stolen and spliced into multi-setting campaign!*
Okay, let me start off by saying that from the very beginning of 4e, I have been running a Ravenloft campaign. I have been using the old cosmology, however, which has been very important for my game as the there are constant "flash-backs" to the characters lives before they came to Ravenloft, with the different characters coming from different campaign settings, with things inter-related and affecting their current situation (its not solo, other characters play NPCs with the same stats as their regular PCs but have a different name and motivation. great roleplaying opportunities for those who are willing). if you liked the first season of Lost, you'd probably like it (i havent seen a single episode of lost, for the record) Having said that, I think that you could do a shadowfell Ravenloft without losing anything. In the original I6 and I10 adventures, you had the mists playing their traditional role in gothic fiction, i.e. keeping the people cut off from the rest of the world. While it was originally envisioned as a weekend in hell setting (with Strahd the main villain), it ended up its own campaign setting (with Azalin as the main villain). The mists became less of a barrier and more of a nuisance to travelers, since travel to the clusters was unreliable, but not impossible (just have to deal with an side quest or adventure on the way to your destination). Every now and again, the mists would reveal a new land (it was actually created, but since it had a history, the perception is it was always within the mists but only just now came into sight.), but basically it was a pretty humdrum place, with either a countryside filled with monsters or an aristocracy that was monstrous in nature. (over-simplification, i know, i love the setting, but i haven't even gotten to my point yet) The way that it could fit into the 4e cosmology is really one of two ways. Possibility One: Ravenloft exists in the shadow of the real world. Barovia (for example) was a county long ago in the real world (be it Toril or Eberron), but the people disappeared without a trace. It's villages and castles were left barren for many years, as neighboring counties believed the place to be haunted. Eventually, these rumors were dismissed, and the region became resettled. Old castle Ravenloft was destroyed many years ago due to a storm, and little remains of it today, its vaults and dungeons having collapsed in on themselves and the stones removed to help build Tempest Hall, the new castle in the region. Few know the truth, that in actuality the inhabitants of the county were shifted into the Shadowfell, where for generations they have lived in the dim twilight. All the buildings from the real world had tim burton like counterparts, and castle Ravenloft still exists to this day within the realm. The old folk speak of a sunny land where their grandfather's grandfather came from, but the young folk dismiss such tales as fantasies. The people believe they have been cursed by the gods, for the unknown sins of a former ruler, and thus they have turned their backs on their dispassionate tormentors, becoming atheistic in nature. they don't travel far from town because of the twisted monsters and evil demons that inhabit the surrounding lands. they wish to remain hidden from these creatures, and hate outsiders, fearing they are devils in disguise, or will lead the fiends to them unwittingly. RULE: While characters can travel to the Shadowfell, no person born there can leave. In addition, Dark Lords are trapped within the shadowfell, unable to leave. Possibility Two: Ravenloft exits in the shadows of the shadowfell When one wants to get to the shadowfell, one must complete a ritual within the real world at a dark crossing. To get to the demiplane of dread, one could find a dark crossing within the shadowrift, and travel to the deeper darkness, a shadowfell of the shadowfell. This twisted portrait, however, is not a darker reflection, it is the reflection of the reflection (if you translate english to japanese and then back again, you won't get the original story, you'll get something altogether different). The shadowfells reflection of the real world is a world of darkness, but not in the physical sense. by all accounts, it appears normal, but the dark heart of the shadowfell is felt deeply within the land. you can see where i'm going with this, its the original ravenloft, but instead of existing within the deep ethereal, it exists in the "deep shadowfell", which is basically still existing in the deepness of a transient plane i would prefer the second option, because i treat ravenloft like planescape, a place where the different campaign settings connect. there's so much you can do with that, and a campaign in ravenloft need not be about fighting a vampire or werewolf, it could be about tearing the planar fabric asunder (particularly if the game takes place while vecna was a resident). it's a land of secrets and creation, as well as darkness and dread. i don't like the simplified cosmology for the planes, because my second favorite campaign was planescape, and I used everything (i mean it too). I'm very happy they included a brief description of the great wheel, because I think that the justification for cutting something out shouldn't be "people didn't use it", there was a greatness and subtly to the great wheel, and if you disagree with that, well, I certainly could no more convince you of that in a single post than I could convince a republican to become a democrat. i own the 2nd edition books, and i still constantly reference them for info on githyanki, drow, and illithids (amongst other things). my 3rd edition books, those are just sitting in a box somewhere, probably never to be touched again.
*chuckle* Ok I started writing a long-winded, rambling, nonsensical, post that basically said this... but you put it much better than I would have. Thanks, you took care of it for me...;)
after orcus was defeated by the drow goddess of necromancy he wound up in the demiplane of dread, no one has noticed this courtesy of his reality wrinkle, except of course, for vecna, alzalin and a few other heavy hitters. except of course a few "favored" by the dark powers.
players travel most of the southern core adventuring and peicing the clues until epic levels where they themselves stumble upon a third intrested party is reaching for power, on the isle of ravens.
for a very select few they relize what the dark powers are, a struggle for control between the 3 opposing sides of orcus/vecna/ and a budding ravenqueen, formerly nerull. and just because a handfull of people may know and even eventually come to find out doesn't make it less horrifying.
(blasphemous to give the dark powers a face, i know...but hear me out.
imagine yourself in cold black water, you've only noticed hints of what may come. something underwater brushing your toes, and occasionally somthing bump you hard you imagine it may be somthing coming to get you. eventually not seeing this great and 'evil' thing thing could be anything, your mind finally starts to tease you in that it literally could be anything. it might be sharks, but it also might be murderous sea turtles with cutlery, it could be something scary but it could be somthing stupid. giving a face to the unknown terror in my game doesn't make it any less scary IMO. back to the example, black water... toes bumped off somthing... then the fin circling you, until it steers sharply in your direction, a cone shaped head splits the water, death comes and it would almost have been bliss not to see it but to have been pulled under water and not see the end coming.)
(yes i know the lady of the tower already has a great story... but i gave the domain my own little spin =] )