Ravenloft the D&D setting for 2011?

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

Cyber-Dave

Aug 07, 2010 10:56:34
There has been a twitter post floating around that suggests that it might be so!
#2

mechafishy

Aug 07, 2010 22:44:31
I will confirm this: Ravenloft the Roleplaying Game has been announced for 4th quarter 2011. I was at the D&D Q&A seminar this morning, and it was the big reveal. It was described as both the new campaign setting, and a stand-alone game, similar to Gamma World.

No word on any returning characters or authors, but Strahd was in the artwork. There is also a LOT of Shadowfell support next year.
#3

snorreselmer

Aug 08, 2010 7:42:27
I'm SO looking forward to this. Ravenloft is my fave setting in D&D. Hearing this announcement at GenCon was the best one so far.

Edit: Btw, Strahd is detailed quite well in Open Grave already, so it seems like Ravenloft has been in the works for some time, WotC probably wanted to keep a lid on it so that they could have a cool announcement for GenCon. ;) 
#4

The_Jester

Aug 08, 2010 9:49:06
squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
#5

pamela

Aug 08, 2010 14:21:31
Does a little dance of joy...
#6

drummingdm

Aug 09, 2010 7:20:31
Supposedly, you'll be able to play as a vampire, were-beast, or ghost, in addition to the "standard" PC party.  So it's kinda WoD-esque.  But my brain keeps going "Twilight D&D!" and I want to claw my eyeballs out in response.
#7

snorreselmer

Aug 09, 2010 8:33:09
But my brain keeps going "Twilight D&D!" and I want to claw my eyeballs out in response.

One of the WotC people said "No, there are NO sparkly vampires here. If you absolutely have to sparkle, fine, but there's nothing about it in the book."

Also, several of the original Ravenloft writers still work at WotC, so I have a feeling that someone would be running around the place with an axe, trying to kill whoever was responsible for making Ravenloft into Club DiscoVampire if it had been the case.

I'm very confident Ravenloft will be the good old grim setting it has always been. Screw them screaming girlies, the WoD LARP'ers can have them for free!
#8

drummingdm

Aug 09, 2010 8:38:35
One of the WotC people said "No, there are NO sparkly vampires here. If you absolutely have to sparkle, fine, but there's nothing about it in the book."

This news goes a long way towards quieting the haunting voice in my brain.  I was hoping and praying that someone at WotC was in the meetings going "people are going to freak about the vampires-and-werewolves-as-a-character thing.  This is the internet, and we know someone is going to invoke Twilight within 5 seconds of this announcement."

I'm glad to hear it sounds like I was right.  Big relief.

#9

Cyber-Dave

Aug 09, 2010 17:53:16
There is one thing I am really worrying about, though: they stated that there will be some sort of new physical component to the game. Considering that Gamma World includes a strong CCG element to it, and WotC's plan to release a CCG element to D&D in the form of fortune cards, I am a little worried. The fortune cards are very modular and can largely be ignored by anyone who doesn't like CCG elements in their D&D. But in Gamma World the CCG element is impossible to ignore. I am really worried that they plan to release madness, fear, and dark gift rules as cards that must be bought in CCG booster format. That would really upset me. Cry

Other than that, this news has me VERY stoked. Ravenloft is among my top 4 favorite settings (Planescape, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, and Eberron, in no particular order).
#10

starglyte

Aug 09, 2010 19:22:04
I really don't see Gamma World having a strong CCG element. Its just extra cards you can shuffle in for character creation if you wish. You don't construct a deck around a certain theme, your cards don't go obsolete every year or so. Are they even going to make more cards are expansions after that Famine at Fargo? How do we know how it works since Gamma World hasn't been released yet? Do the cards do anything more than add some random event to a game?

On rpg.net, someone came up with the idea that if there are cards in Ravenloft, it will most likely be the Tarokka deck. I can see this and hope its true. We might something like what is going on in the Shadowfell box set as well, which won't have any boosters (I am aware of).

I am just not seeing it.
#11

kodiak3d

Aug 09, 2010 21:18:03
Glad to see Ravenloft comeing back.  Hopefully, WotC won't screw it up too badly.
#12

Cyber-Dave

Aug 09, 2010 23:17:50
I really don't see Gamma World having a strong CCG element. Its just extra cards you can shuffle in for character creation if you wish. You don't construct a deck around a certain theme, your cards don't go obsolete every year or so. Are they even going to make more cards are expansions after that Famine at Fargo? How do we know how it works since Gamma World hasn't been released yet? Do the cards do anything more than add some random event to a game?

On rpg.net, someone came up with the idea that if there are cards in Ravenloft, it will most likely be the Tarokka deck. I can see this and hope its true. We might something like what is going on in the Shadowfell box set as well, which won't have any boosters (I am aware of).

I am just not seeing it.



Gamm World will have mutation decks. Devs have said something to the effect of "each player can build their own mutation deck." Mutations grant powers (ala class powers). The game will come with some number of starting cards. Additional cards must be bought in randomized booster packs. These packs will have a rarity system. You don't see that as a strong CCG element? We will have to agree to disagree...
#13

scipio

Aug 10, 2010 1:02:37
squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee


What he said.
#14

starglyte

Aug 10, 2010 8:14:50
I really don't see Gamma World having a strong CCG element. Its just extra cards you can shuffle in for character creation if you wish. You don't construct a deck around a certain theme, your cards don't go obsolete every year or so. Are they even going to make more cards are expansions after that Famine at Fargo? How do we know how it works since Gamma World hasn't been released yet? Do the cards do anything more than add some random event to a game?

On rpg.net, someone came up with the idea that if there are cards in Ravenloft, it will most likely be the Tarokka deck. I can see this and hope its true. We might something like what is going on in the Shadowfell box set as well, which won't have any boosters (I am aware of).

I am just not seeing it.



Gamm World will have mutation decks. Devs have said something to the effect of "each player can build their own mutation deck." Mutations grant powers (ala class powers). The game will come with some number of starting cards. Additional cards must be bought in randomized booster packs. These packs will have a rarity system. You don't see that as a strong CCG element? We will have to agree to disagree...



True we will have to agree to disagree, but I am not aware of players having their own mutation deck. That dosen't sound right, since the main box set comes with a set of cards (that I assume is not randomized) that would have to be split among the players.

It turns that is going to be more expansions to the game, Legion of Gold comes out in Q1.

To get back on topic, I am interested to see if the Vampire/Werewolf/etc characters are character classes, races, or bloodline feats.
#15

pamela

Aug 10, 2010 11:41:02
If I had to guess, I'd say they'll be races like the Revenant. You'd then be able to choose feats which complement your race rather than your class.
#16

starglyte

Aug 10, 2010 15:24:17
I think that would be fun, especially if they have rules for turning into said creatures after a nasty bite/curse/discovery of family tree.
#17

MechaPilot

Aug 10, 2010 15:28:05
I think that would be fun, especially if they have rules for turning into said creatures after a nasty bite/curse/discovery of family tree.



There is a precedent for that in the bloodline feats.  The Dragon Annual has bloodline feats for a Dhamphyr (IIRC), and allowing characters to take those after character creation through curses, etc. would be a nice change in my opinion.
#18

pamela

Aug 10, 2010 15:35:07
I haven't paid attention to Dragon for a while so I'll be sure to check out that article - thanks MechaPilot!
#19

MechaPilot

Aug 10, 2010 15:38:29
I haven't paid attention to Dragon for a while so I'll be sure to check out that article - thanks MechaPilot!



I just checked my book.  It is in fact the Dhampyr.  The article starts on pg 111 of the annual, if you have it, and it's called "Playing Dhampyr".  I don't know if they change the article names when they move them from online to the annual though.
#20

starglyte

Aug 10, 2010 19:08:44
From some spoilers on other messageboards, bloodline feats for Elan and the Far Realm (forgot the name of the feat/bloodline) are in the Psionic Power book. The Far Realm one sounds like it would be a good fit for Ravenloft, along with the Dhampyr and Vistani(from Dragon).
#21

snorreselmer

Aug 10, 2010 19:19:29
The Far Realm one sounds like it would be a good fit for Ravenloft, along with the Dhampyr and Vistani (from Dragon).


The Far Realm? I thought Ravenloft had been pretty much nailed as an area in the Shadowfell. Need to read up on the Shadowfell chapter in my Manual of the Planes again I guess.

Anyways, found the Dhampyr-article in Dragon Magazine #371 (p. 32) for those who have D&DI access but not the Dragon Annual. 
#22

starglyte

Aug 10, 2010 21:41:08
Ravenloft is in the Shadowfell according to Gen Con. There is a bloodline feat in Psionic Power that ties a character ancestry to the Far Realm. Since some of Ravenloft is inspired by Lovecraft, I thought this would be a good fit.
#23

snorreselmer

Aug 10, 2010 21:44:03
Ravenloft is in the Shadowfell according to Gen Con. There is a bloodline feat in Psionic Power that ties a character ancestry to the Far Realm. Since some of Ravenloft is inspired by Lovecraft, I thought this would be a good fit.

Yeah, the Far Realm is definately Lovecraftian. Even the warlock Star Pact oozes Lovecraft with its "cosmic horror" ties...
#24

Cyber-Dave

Aug 11, 2010 3:49:59

True we will have to agree to disagree, but I am not aware of players having their own mutation deck. That dosen't sound right, since the main box set comes with a set of cards (that I assume is not randomized) that would have to be split among the players.

It turns that is going to be more expansions to the game, Legion of Gold comes out in Q1.



Ok, so, some more information came out today. I thought it pertained to our earlier conversation. The following has been confirmed: "Alpha Mutations are encounter powers which are drawn from a  deck created by the Player, and usually revolve around one or both of  the Characters particular themes. " Also, it has been confirmed that Alpha Mutation and Omega Tech (the deck governing equipment your character can find when he salvages things) decks are randomized. What is more, they do have a rarity system. Specifically, "It was also noted that the booster packs were numbered so that if a Player were to buy one of each, he would accumulate one of each of the   “common” cards available for the game. Of course, each booster contains a random rare, and two random uncommon cards, so collectors wanting a complete set might have to do some trading or buy a lot of boosters to finish their collections." All this information is from this year's (2010) seminar on Gamma World at GenCon. Getting your equipment and items, as well as encounter powers, from randomized decks, with at least one type of deck created by the player for his own use, and cards collected via randomized booster packs with a rarity system, sort of seems like a major CCG element, no?

Anyways, that is the sort of thing I am hoping doesn't make it into the Ravenloft game.
#25

starglyte

Aug 11, 2010 9:19:58


 Getting your equipment and items, as well as encounter powers, from randomized decks, with at least one type of deck created by the player for his own use, and cards collected via randomized booster packs with a rarity system, sort of seems like a major CCG element, no?

Anyways, that is the sort of thing I am hoping doesn't make it into the Ravenloft game.



You are right, that is a major CCG element and I agree with you on hoping it dosen't make into the Ravenloft game as well.

Its a shame really, I was hoping and from what they said ealier in spoilers and the D&D podcast (not the Gamma World one) that the cards were going to be used for fast and funky character creation, but now I really have my doubts about getting Gamma World. Sad to say though, my D&D group would love this so WOTC might be on to something.
#26

Cyber-Dave

Aug 11, 2010 10:11:50
I don't know. I know my group unanimously turned their noses up at the idea (minus 2 out of 6 players who were not at the table while it was being discussed). But maybe it is an age thing. At 26, I was the youngest player discussing these cards. Still, we all HATED the idea. I am also an avid collector of PRG rulesets. I own every 4e book except for the 2 Draconomicons, the Demonomicon, Adventurers Vault 2, and the two race books. Of those, I plan to buy the 2 Draconomicons, the Demonomicon, and the Adventurers Vault 2, in time. I will also be buying the Ravenloft boardgame. If this CCG element had not been included in Gamma World I would have bought every expansion. As it stands, I won't buy a single Gamma World product. Gamma World and its boxed sets run at roughly 40 dollars American. That means they are going to loose roughly 60 dollars from me due to their decision. The question now is demographics. How many will buy the game, and buy the booster packs? How many will completely avoid the game? If the people who are buying the booster packs can not drastically make up for, and surpass, the loss of sales they are going to see from people like me, well, then WotC just made a really poor decision. Otherwise, we are probably going to see this sort of element creep into more and more games, and this is probably going to be the last edition of D&D I buy.

Ah well. I just REALLY want to buy the 4e Ravenloft product. I LOVE Ravenloft. So I am REALLY hoping that Gamma World flops as a result of this, and they keep this CCG element out of Ravenloft because of that.
#27

starglyte

Aug 11, 2010 15:14:29
Its not a age thing, because my players happen to be  your age (with me being older than them). I collect the books as well. That being said, they like card games ( they are playing lots of Magic right now) and they like 4th edition. So I might get Gamma World because they would love to play zany things like that. But I don't see myself buying the boosters, and I don't think not having the boosters will have a negative affect on any Gamma World game I run. Since it is not a game that players compete with each other, there is no need to try and stay ahead of the curve.

I personally would not like to see booster packs for the Ravenloft Role Playing Game ( I so love typing that out) but I am willing to wait and see how the Gamma World, Fortune cards, and Shadowfell cards turn out before making any judgements. Even if they do include booster packs of cards( or what random physical compoment they decide on) I still think Ravenloft will be playable out of the box, and that is whats important.
#28

Cyber-Dave

Aug 12, 2010 2:15:25
Since it is not a game that players compete with each other, there is no need to try and stay ahead of the curve.



And we all saw how well that turned out in 3e, with casters being so far ahead of the power curve in regards to non casters, in that game...

Playing in a game where you just don't have the same options, or the same potential power output, as other players in the game is not fun.

Ah well. Like I said before, we will have to agree to disagree. I will buy what I like. Others will buy what they like. If WotC stops catering to my tastes, that is just what will happen. I still have all the books I have already purchased...
#29

pamela

Aug 12, 2010 12:19:45
I'm not fussed about it either way. If they're interesting, I'll use them; if they aren't, I won't. I'm buying the game for the books and even then, I'll pick and choose what I want in my Ravenloft.
#30

MechaPilot

Aug 12, 2010 15:32:38
Since it is not a game that players compete with each other, there is no need to try and stay ahead of the curve.



I am amazed how often this comment comes up.  No one is saying that you are competing with the other players.  You are all competing against the hardships (and monsters) of the game world.

This is why the CCG elemt is so frustrating: I do not want my characters' effectiveness in game to be tied to how much money I (personally) can afford to spend.  It's as if WotC offered a second set of PHBs that costs double the price (but all the powers do double the damage and the magic items are better), and saying that it's only event legal to use those powers/items if you have your own copy of the book.
#31

starglyte

Aug 12, 2010 16:53:49

I am viewing this as a player who buys more books to support their characters opposed to  those who don't do that. Since book sharing is possible, you can share your cards too. Rarity system does not automatically mean better cards for Gamma world, so we will have to wait and see if those boosters make characters better than they already are, since the Devs have said that is more about random effects than any character optimazation. After all, in the end its a RPG and not a CCG.

Now to tie this back into Ravenloft (since this is suposed to be a Ravenloft thread), any guess what the new compoment will be?  Since they say its new, there is a good chance it won't be card driven at all. Dice maybe? 3-D tiles? Maybe a online compoment? Don't forget to chime in on the other thread about what you want to see in Ravenloft RPG.

#32

Cyber-Dave

Aug 12, 2010 20:54:17

I am viewing this as a player who buys more books to support their characters opposed to  those who don't do that. Since book sharing is possible, you can share your cards too. Rarity system does not automatically mean better cards for Gamma world, so we will have to wait and see if those boosters make characters better than they already are, since the Devs have said that is more about random effects than any character optimazation. After all, in the end its a RPG and not a CCG.



Except, we already know you cannot share cards. It has been officially released that each player builds their own deck for a character. So, it is nothing like books. Books can be shared. If I buy Divine power for my paladin, and Joe happens to be playing a cleric, we both benefit. If I buy a bunch of cards for my yeti-cockroach, Joe's cockroach-yeti is SOL. This is the reason cards sell so well. Incidentally, as the selling point of cards is why WotC wants to include them, WotC has no reason to remove this aspect of the cards from any cards they introduce to the game. Which is why I am not ok with cards being a system of rules distribution. I tend to have the most books of anyone at any game table I play in. I collect books religiously. But everyone at my game table can benefit from my collection. If I were to collect cards in Gamma World (not only would I spend far more money than I do on books) no one else would benefit but me.


And to say that having more cards won't increase your power level is naive. The more options you have at your disposal, the more powerful you can become. It is a factor of RPG games that has always existed in every game that exists. Someone with more options of what to put in a deck will be able to pick and choose in a way that creates a more powerful deck.


Now to tie this back into Ravenloft (since this is suposed to be a Ravenloft thread), any guess what the new compoment will be?  Since they say its new, there is a good chance it won't be card driven at all. Dice maybe? 3-D tiles? Maybe a online compoment? Don't forget to chime in on the other thread about what you want to see in Ravenloft RPG.



A 3D tile set of castle Ravenloft would be cool, but not really necessary as the Castle Ravenloft board game already exists. New dice? I guess... I can't imagine how that would work. All I really want is for the game to be completely compatible with D&D. I don't mean "compatible" the way Gamma World is compatible, which I don't consider very compatible at all (all the characters have more damage output and less healing). I mean, I want the power output of the new options introduced in Ravenloft to very much be on par with standard 4e D&D. And I want playable ghosts, vampires, and werewolves. And I want rules for fear, maddness, and dark gifts. And I want lots of juicy updated fluff.
#33

starglyte

Aug 12, 2010 23:08:47

A 3D tile set of castle Ravenloft would be cool, but not really necessary as the Castle Ravenloft board game already exists. New dice? I guess... I can't imagine how that would work. All I really want is for the game to be completely compatible with D&D. I don't mean "compatible" the way Gamma World is compatible, which I don't consider very compatible at all (all the characters have more damage output and less healing). I mean, I want the power output of the new options introduced in Ravenloft to very much be on par with standard 4e D&D. And I want playable ghosts, vampires, and werewolves. And I want rules for fear, maddness, and dark gifts. And I want lots of juicy updated fluff.



I was thinking about it today, but I wonder if players will end up with their own Domains per say. After all why be a vampire if you can't play Dracula. I am not sure I can see a "mixed party" per say. Also, since Ravenloft RPG is can be a stand alone product, will there be new classes (besides the possible monster classes). While it would be different from the previous editions of Ravenloft, playing a gothic villian might not be bad at all and still in the spirit of Gothic Horror. The Darklord epic destiny in Dragon allows the possiblity of good or unaligned darklords. Maybe player vs player?
#34

Nemo_the_Lost

Aug 14, 2010 18:25:45
Getting back to the original subject of this post, can someone confirm for me that the internet hubbub about Ravenloft being the next D&D setting in 2011 is a general misinterpretation of the news that the Ravenloft standalone RPG will be released in 4Q 2010?

Or has there actually been a separate announcement regarding 2011 Ravenloft?  I can't find any official mention of such a thing.

...Does anyone else feel as old as I do typing 2011?  Where's my damned flying car?
#35

starglyte

Aug 14, 2010 19:59:42
Getting back to the original subject of this post, can someone confirm for me that the internet hubbub about Ravenloft being the next D&D setting in 2011 is a general misinterpretation of the news that the Ravenloft standalone RPG will be released in 4Q 2010?

Or has there actually been a separate announcement regarding 2011 Ravenloft?  I can't find any official mention of such a thing.

...Does anyone else feel as old as I do typing 2011?  Where's my damned flying car?



One of the gencon podcasts floating around said that Ravenloft could be used as a standalone game or as a setting for 4th edition. Since the only other "setting" books were the Nentir Vale book at the start of the year and the Neverwinter book for Forgotten Realms, Ravenloft is considered 2011's setting. Not everyone agrees with this however.

I am not sure I want to see flying cars, since people can't seem to drive properly on the ground to begin with.
#36

Nemo_the_Lost

Aug 15, 2010 7:44:54
Thanks, Starglyte.  That was more or less the conclusion I had reached, and I'm glad to have confirmation.

As a die-hard Planescape fan, I would not mind a stand-alone RPG set in Sigil (for instance) so I definitely understand the enthusiasm of our Domain-dwelling brethren.
#37

pamela

Aug 15, 2010 7:55:39
I think odds are good that there will eventually be a Planescape roleplaying game at the very least. I like to think that the Sigil appearance wasn't a one-off, but a teaser for what's bound to come.
#38

rethgryn

Aug 15, 2010 15:39:50
There is one thing I am really worrying about, though: they stated that there will be some sort of new physical component to the game.



Wait, does that mean Ravenloft, the LARP

Squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
#39

ravenharm

Aug 25, 2010 13:12:59
very happy at its possibility of a stand alone game. and also happy that posts are back on this forum.
#40

Kalani

Oct 01, 2010 20:40:16
I sincerely hope that WotC takes a page out of TSR's book and rethinks their idea of introducing CCG elements to DnD. I don't think I will get any disagreements when I mention the abysmal horror that was the Dragonlance SAGA (5th age game)*

*And this coming from a rabid dragonlance fan who purchased the entire game, despite how disappointing it was - just because it had the Dragonlance label.

As to my personal preference; I sincerely hope that Dragonlance will make a comeback for the 2012 setting. They already filed the serial numbers off Cyan Bloodbane and the Dragon orbs, and let us not forget that Raistlin is in the Character Builder.
#41

The_Jester

Oct 01, 2010 23:08:08
I dunno, I liked Dragonlance SAGA. Okay, what they did to the world was horrible, but the actual game was fun and different. 

For Ravenloft, I'm hoping as a stand alone game it can be D&D made a little more low magic and low power, with lesser stats and weaker heroes against deadly monsters where brains and planning are more necessary than tactics and luck.  
For the physical item, the Tarroka cards are the safe bet, possibly used just for fortune telling or an additional random plot or game element.  
#42

jonathonhawke

Oct 09, 2010 1:09:59
There is one thing I am really worrying about, though: they stated that there will be some sort of new physical component to the game.



Maybe a spinner?  "Wheel of Misfortune!"
#43

karameikos

Oct 24, 2010 22:03:47
Just found this thread and read the good news. I'm glad to hear Ravenloft is due to be updated. If anyone has a source for updates on progress, please post.
#44

The_Jester

Oct 25, 2010 11:56:14
Finally had a chance to read the Gamma World book, which is likely the measuring stick for other stand-alone games.

Half the book is straight rules and half is monsters and an adventure (thankfully, the latter also has new monsters). I dread seeing that done to Ravenloft which *needs* a world book of NPCs and locations and history.
Hopefully we'll see a smaller 100 page player book and a big, sizable DM book. There'd be plenty of room in the box (with the frame and all in the Gamma World box).  
#45

silence1980

Nov 05, 2010 15:09:07
I heard you can play as Vampires and Werewolves but, I kinda would like to play as a Wereraven since they are both cool and good, I wanted to play one ever since I read about them in the  old DOS game Strahd's Possession. I would be fine playing a Wereraven in Human Form most the time. But ultamently the cdrom disc was lost (I mean most likely Stolen) by a friend I lent it to, but anyways that why I'm interested in Ravenloft coming back that PC game.
#46

sievliss

Nov 15, 2010 10:42:47
i think that playing a vampire/werewolf/ghost/monstrous creature from the darkest imaginings (removes foam from corner of mouth) isn't such a good idea....  after all once your character goes down a certain route (i.e. kills all the children in the orphanage, betrayes all his/her allies in the party, grave robs so that he can build an adam-like flesh gollem etc. the pc then has the potential to become a dark lord. 

If you want to play a vampire or werewolf surely white wolf are the people for you?
#47

silence1980

Nov 15, 2010 11:09:20
i think that playing a vampire/werewolf/ghost/monstrous creature from the darkest imaginings (removes foam from corner of mouth) isn't such a good idea....  after all once your character goes down a certain route (i.e. kills all the children in the orphanage, betrayes all his/her allies in the party, grave robs so that he can build an adam-like flesh gollem etc. the pc then has the potential to become a dark lord. 

If you want to play a vampire or werewolf surely white wolf are the people for you?




You could always be a evil PC without being a monster, and white wolf doesn't really have the flavor of Borovia. albeit my experience with ravenloft is from the PC Game Ravenloft Strahd's Possession.
#48

MastersGamingKonnec

Nov 24, 2010 16:11:54
What I would like to see in a new Ravenloft is a movement to the base elements of what makes Ravenloft enjoyable. Ravenloft is a setting of gothic horror. Two parts of that are Gothic and Horror.

Gothic influences are still present in a lot of literature and film we current produce. Gothic elements evoke a sense of isolation and decay, and explore the ramifications of extreme emotion. It is all a movement towards the sense of the sublime, or something beyond description. Common tropes in gothic stories involve strong, nearly dreamlike elements, and use of stock characters.

Horror is, at its root, the study of the destruction of humanity. Whether on the macro scale or the micro scale, it is about watching humanity get taken apart. Sometimes it's psychological, sometime it's physical, sometimes it's spiritual. Gothic horror uses gothic elements to tell the horror story.

How does one translate this into D&D? Here's my Five Sentences for the setting of Ravenloft.

1) The World is Mysterious - Bring back the Mists. Remove the maps. Make the world dangerous and unknown, and DELIBERATELY so. Part of the malevolence of old Ravenloft was that there were no promises. You step into a playhouse? And boom, you're in Scaena. Good luck. Take shelter in a cave during a snowstorm in Nova Vaasa, step out in Vorostokov. People know that Barovia is in the Balinoks, but where are you safe from Strahd's wrath? The answer should be... you don't know.

2) The World is Filled With Evil - Monsters are every where in Ravenloft. It is not a Points of Light in the darkness. It is just darkness. Even in their homes, PCs should not feel safe. For one reason or another, anyone can be a monster, and many walk among the populace without anyone knowing they are there. The Land is defined by individuals of particularly great evil.

3) The Dark Powers are Unknowable - More than simply unknown and cruel, the Dark Powers are there and have an agenda. But that agenda is so utterly alien to those caught in its machinations that it will never be known in its entirety. You cannot out think them. You cannot out fight them. The Dark Powers are the three rules of Thermodynamics. You can't win. You can't break even. And you can't stop playing the game.

4) Heroes Are Desperately Needed - In a world filled with so much darkness, the PCs are not "adventuers". The PCs must be heroes. They cannot hope that someone else will solve the problems they find, because there is no one else. It is up to the PCs to make the world a better place to live in, even if it may cost them everything. You will suffer as a hero in Ravenloft, but because of that suffering, you may be able to save lives.

5) Magic is Dangerous and Rare - An average person in the world of Ravenloft thinks of magic as a series of sleight of hands and clever flashes of light. Someone actually casting spells would fill them with instinctive dread, as they are capable of something beyond the norm. One does not go to the store to buy magic items. Anything that is magical is rare and unique, and probably carries as much bad in its past as good.


In regards to the "additional physical content" of the game, I would expect the game to come with a Tarokka deck, and for it to be used as a element for adventure and character creation. Which I personally think would be pretty cool. Using a Tarokka casting as the means of building your character, and adding the elements to enrich their history and the like, and using the Tarokka casting to create, essentially, random adventures.

Also, for playing Vampires, Werewolves, and other things that go bump in the night? I expect it to work out something similar to Themes or Mutations, using the Tarokka to determine it. You build your human blacksmith, who investigates a mysterious noise one night, and gets bitten by a werewolf. I'd also expect to see something liked being Cursed (Van Richten), inheriting a dubious family heirloom (the Shadowbane family), or the like. Gives you certain powers, but also certain curses. Being transformed into a vampire would be similar, or being haunted. Or maybe finding out you were a golem.

The downside is that if you run it for more than four or five players? It quickly loses its 'tortured' feeling and comes closer to a League of Extraordinary Gentleman / Van Hellsing mash up.
#49

grimgent

Dec 11, 2010 16:46:43
You could always be a evil PC without being a monster, and white wolf doesn't really have the flavor of Borovia.


The World of Darkness doesn't have the flavour of Barovia, you presumably mean, which is understandable enough since the WoD after all is a modern-day setting. But White Wolf also already published the 3e version of Ravenloft, under their Sword & Sorcery imprint.
#50

silence1980

Dec 11, 2010 19:25:53
You could always be a evil PC without being a monster, and white wolf doesn't really have the flavor of Borovia.


The World of Darkness doesn't have the flavour of Barovia, you presumably mean, which is understandable enough since the WoD after all is a modern-day setting. But White Wolf also already published the 3e version of Ravenloft, under their Sword & Sorcery imprint.



I just meant World of Darkness is only set in the Modern time period, so yeah your right.
#51

grimgent

Dec 12, 2010 8:04:33
I just meant World of Darkness is only set in the Modern time period, so yeah your right.

The old World of Darkness offered more explicit alternatives for historical gaming, from Vampire: The Dark Ages to Werewolf: The Wild West to Wraith: The Great War. In the new World of Darkness, at least so far, specific supplements for that sort of thing are pretty much limited to Requiem for Rome (vampires in ancient Rome) and New Wave Requiem (vampires in the Eighties, which might sound like a slightly odd choice for a sourcebook). Then again, what with the toolbox approach and Mirrors and all, there's no reason why the regular game couldn't be adapted accordingly if necessary.

#52

silence1980

Dec 12, 2010 14:47:13
I just meant World of Darkness is only set in the Modern time period, so yeah your right.

The old World of Darkness offered more explicit alternatives for historical gaming, from Vampire: The Dark Ages to Werewolf: The Wild West to Wraith: The Great War. In the new World of Darkness, at least so far, specific supplements for that sort of thing are pretty much limited to Requiem for Rome (vampires in ancient Rome) and New Wave Requiem (vampires in the Eighties, which might sound like a slightly odd choice for a sourcebook). Then again, what with the toolbox approach and Mirrors and all, there's no reason why the regular game couldn't be adapted accordingly if necessary.




I just prefer hard fantasy to historical too, unless I want to play something specifically historical like Vampire, or Knights Templar or something.
#53

grimgent

Dec 12, 2010 17:10:17
I just prefer hard fantasy to historical too, unless I want to play something specifically historical like Vampire, or Knights Templar or something.


I actually haven't run D&D since the Red Box. With (3e) Ravenloft I instead converted the setting for Tri-Stat and changed it into a kind of a parasitic parallel reality which haunted the present-day Earth, stripping away the most obvious D&Disms like the elves and the dwarves in the process. It should be the simplest thing to do the same with the Storytelling System, perhaps treating the Domains of Dread as yet another otherworld in the WoD.
#54

ookiespookie

Dec 20, 2010 0:04:24
Ravenloft in general was perfect as it was.
It was the fault of TSR and then Wizards for burying it and letting it crumble, and while at first I was greatly pleased about this news when I first heard it now I am hearing about playing vampires and werewolves and whatnot?
Is the land beyond the mist really going to be the next victim of the dumbing down process that has swallowed D&D? 
#55

Mouse10

Jan 03, 2011 16:27:51
I'd be a might nervous if WotC makes Ravenloft the next 4th ed setting. That being said, I would love to see it's return to greatness. I'd love a chance to play it again with newer players and friends.

It's been years and the setting has sunken into Limbo. Only the diehard fans still play it. Even the book series is long out of print.

I think the way WotC might treat it is more like the original Ravenloft module's I6 and I10 which had nothing to do with a Demiplane of Dread. 

Personally I prefer to be in the Demiplane. The problem is once you're there....you're screwed. It's better to start off on the Demiplane and start fresh rather than having PC's from other realms go though the mists and get stranded.

I'm nervous but maybe thats what we need-an updated Ravenloft. I for one am curious to see what Soth, Strahd, Azalin, and the rest have been up to.
#56

speed6620

Jan 17, 2011 5:55:01
I'd be a might nervous if WotC makes Ravenloft the next 4th ed setting. That being said, I would love to see it's return to greatness. I'd love a chance to play it again with newer players and friends.

It's been years and the setting has sunken into Limbo. Only the diehard fans still play it. Even the book series is long out of print.

I think the way WotC might treat it is more like the original Ravenloft module's I6 and I10 which had nothing to do with a Demiplane of Dread. 

Personally I prefer to be in the Demiplane. The problem is once you're there....you're screwed. It's better to start off on the Demiplane and start fresh rather than having PC's from other realms go though the mists and get stranded.

I'm nervous but maybe thats what we need-an updated Ravenloft. I for one am curious to see what Soth, Strahd, Azalin, and the rest have been up to.



I am interested in the fluff if they keep it in line with the original setting. I do not much care for 4e, but if they keep it Ravenloft and don't butcher it, it may become the first 4e book I feel like purchasing.

#57

The_Jester

Jan 27, 2011 17:44:32
It's been years and the setting has sunken into Limbo. Only the diehard fans still play it. Even the book series is long out of print.


The same could have been said about Dark Sun and look how popular that was when it was announced and released.

But it's moot as the product has been "shelved". They're quick to say it hasn't been cancelled but has instead been postponed, but I don't know many products which have been removed from the schedule and come back to life. If they're working on it they'd have an estimate of what quarter of 2012 it would be released on and call it "postponed" instead.
#58

MastersGamingKonnec

Jan 31, 2011 10:43:00
I'm not terribly surprised that it was postponed. Honestly, going forward with it as a business had to be predicated on the success of Gamma World. By WotC shelving Ravenloft, I can only assume that Gamma World did not succeed as well as they needed it to. On the flipside, if the Shadowfell books (Heroes of Shadow, Gloomwrought and Beyond) do well, it is very likely that Ravenloft might wind up back on their schedules.

I am still interested in the physical component included in the Shadowfell boxed set, though. Looks like they are bringing back madness and fear, with Apathy standing in for horror? I'll withhold judgement until I have it in hand, but it looks intriguing, at very least.
#59

Smoke_Jaguar

Feb 01, 2011 7:55:24
The Shadowfell box is giving us the mechanics for the emotions of horror. The Heroes of Shadow are giving us the monster races. The old products are easy enough to find if you try, so we have the setting. If you apply the world-building techniques from the DMG you can create encounters with the 4e engine that encompass what you find in the Ravenloft books. In fact, as has been said on this forum already, Ravenloft is about atmosphere and pacing, no rule system is going to get that across like a good DM/GM/Storyteller.

So, here is a thought and a question. If we agree that the contemporary DnD engine is optimized for fast-paced action, and rituals and powers and a tier system designed for high fantasy, is it fair to try and fit Gothic Horror on top of it? I would take this as far as all iterations of DnD, for those hearing the horn to battle over the editions every time there is a new post.

To illustrate my point let me give an example. It is a staple of Gothic Horror to find the protagonists impotent, or at least crippled, when, and in ways, they least expect. If every time you try to Air Walk or Speak with Dead or wield a Holy Avenger some mysterious hampering occurs you are going to wonder why you ever chose those character options.

What is that? Weekend in Hell, you say? Well, we already have those type of adventures in DDi. So, it sounds like we are in a good place, after all.
#60

MastersGamingKonnec

Feb 03, 2011 11:13:08
One element I can say about the difference between running Ravenloft in 4th Edition and in previous editions is that there is a knowledge that 4th Edition PCs can face down a lot more in an encounter. The moment weapons get drawn, a DM must decide how hard a fight is going to be. While the CR system worked, it fell apart the moment you started introducing multiple monsters, and at 12th level regardless. 2nd Edition was even harder to balance an encounter, and know that your PCs could make it through.

4th Edition in the Heroic Tier works well in Ravenloft. Without Rituals, I could see it working well into the end of Paragon. Epic, however... I have difficulty seeing it, honestly, considering most Dark Lords are Paragon-tier villains. Only a few (Azalin Rex, Strahd, Hazlik) could qualify for the Epic Tier villainy.

I agree that, hopefully, with the Shadowfell boxed set, we should have enough to run classic Ravenloft in 4th Edition. My mods to the rules would be as follows, off the top of my head.

1) Divination rituals are now unreliable. Travel rituals either do not exist, or cannot cross domain borders.
2) Modified version of the Dark Powers Checks.
3) Firearms are Superior Weapons that allow ranged attacks to target Reflex instead of AC.
4) No magic items.
#61

Smoke_Jaguar

Feb 03, 2011 14:31:22
I like your ideas, MGK. As far as your mods, the only adjustment I might make is with the divination rituals. I would make it that none of them can be gotten by "default," a player just flipping through a book and writing it down, but the discovery would have to be role-played. Acquiring it should involve some moral dilema that is relevant to the ritual. For example, consuming a soul to get Speak with Dead, or murdering someone who you won't be allowed to raise to get Raise Dead.

Regarding the tiers and Dark Lords, if it were merely statistics those can always be ramped up. If you want Ivana Boritsi to be a 33rd level Solo Skirmisher make it happen. The conceptual aspect of the tiers is harder to realise in Ravenloft. Paragon is supposed to deal with a larger scale, whole cities, organizations, dynasties, et cetera. While a hidden, mysterious, conspiratorial organization could "feel" Ravenloft, the setting is largely peopled by individual tragedies.

I'm sure something fun can be done by bolting these concepts on to the 4e engine, but I don't know that it would be classic Ravenloft. I would like to hear more of how people are doing it, though.