You give us a paragraph in the manual of the planes, you are giving the stats for Strahd, and that's about it. You took an absolutely gorgeous setting and turned it into nothing.
Where are the histories, where are the darklords, where are the vistani, where!!!!!
For those of you that disagree with me - that's fine. I don't care. Everyone has a right to their opinion.
In my honest opinion - Wotc has destroyed Ravenloft.
Why did you dissect Ravenloft into absolute nothingness???
You give us a paragraph in the manual of the planes, you are giving the stats for Strahd, and that's about it. You took an absolutely gorgeous setting and turned it into nothing.
Where are the histories, where are the darklords, where are the vistani, where!!!!!
For those of you that disagree with me - that's fine. I don't care. Everyone has a right to their opinion.
In my honest opinion - Wotc has destroyed Ravenloft.
Why is it destroyed? Perhaps they plan to make it a separate release. And who prevents you from using that setting from (I presume) 3.5?
Greetings,
2/10 - would have been 3/10 but you used the word "dissect" improperly.
Was the least important / interesting setting anyhow.
You're thinking of Forgotten Realms.
Anyway, the MotP isn't a setting book, it's a fluff supplement for the new Axis Cosmology. As such, they're just working on showing off the shiny, not going into depth about things.
In the process, they've show us tastes of how Spelljammer, Planescape and Ravenloft all have a place in the new cosmology -- but it is NOT meant to be a sourcebook for these three.
Patience, my friend. The fact that they went out of their way to give a nod to these means they're giving them thought. Which means eventually the money monster will call for the creation of these books.
Why did you dissect Ravenloft into absolute nothingness???
You give us a paragraph in the manual of the planes, you are giving the stats for Strahd, and that's about it. You took an absolutely gorgeous setting and turned it into nothing.
Where are the histories, where are the darklords, where are the vistani, where!!!!!
For those of you that disagree with me - that's fine. I don't care. Everyone has a right to their opinion.
In my honest opinion - Wotc has destroyed Ravenloft.
It's not destroyed at all, in MY honest opinion, they have incorporated it more directly into the setting.
The Manual of the Plains talks about certain areas of the Shadowfell being "Domains of Dread" which are incredibly hard to escape and are ruled by Dark Lords being punished for terrible crimes. And you usually need to break a curse/slay the Dark Lord/do something else along those lines to escape the domains. It also mentions that the Shadowfell dos have a human population native to the plane, usually referred to as Shadowborn.
Expand on that by making the walls of mist more controllable by the Dark Lord (who still can't escape), make some of the "Shadowborn" humans into Vistani, maybe clump all the domains together if need be and POOF, Shadowfell = Ravenloft.
Something tells me the planar settings (such as Spelljammer and Ravenloft) will see full setting releases, they are just bringing them back slowly and steadily. Heck I wouldn't want to rush bringing them back either in their place. At the very least more info about those two certainly will be coming in future articles of Dungeon and Dragon, just like Dark Sun got in 3e. (which we have all but had confirmation that DS is 2010)
which we have all but had confirmation that DS is 2010)
Really? I thought the 2010 setting was intended to be Planescape.
One thing you should understand is that "canon" isn't sacred in D&D. If you are the DM, canon is basically whatever you decide is canon. If you decide that the Spellplague never happened in the Forgotten Realsm, then it is so.
Use your imagination. Don't rely on Wizards for everything.
Expand on that by making the walls of mist more controllable by the Dark Lord (who still can't escape), make some of the "Shadowborn" humans into Vistani, maybe clump all the domains together if need be and POOF, Shadowfell = Ravenloft.
More accurately, Ravenloft is a place int he Shadowfell, as there's more Shadowfell than just the domains of dread.
Also, I'm kind of amused that the Raven Queen makes her home near, but not *in* Ravenloft.
That is all.
Was the least important / interesting setting anyhow.
I agree, but I suspect the bits in MotP that point at previous campaign settings are 'teasers'. "Let's throw this out here and see how people react ... if they don't care, we don't need to worry about making more for it. If they like it, we have a new product to write."
Marvel Studios ruined Iron Man by giving Tony Stark a cameo in the Incredible Hulk.
That is all.
Win.
Win.
Not at all near a win...in fact Fail as far as I am concerned...it was a set up for future movies....
Not at all near a win...in fact Fail as far as I am concerned...it was a set up for future movies....
You just rolled a critical fumble for sarcasm recognition.
Not at all near a win...in fact Fail as far as I am concerned...it was a set up for future movies....
This vvv
You just rolled a critical fumble for sarcasm recognition.
There is still pleny of room for a full-fledged Ravenloft setting. Like many other D&D settings (Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Dark Sun, Dragonlance), I expect its time will come. If it has been completely abandoned, I'll be surprised.
In the meantime however, I can still enjoy the Domains of Dread in the pages of Dragon and snippits like the ones found in Manual of the Planes. I hope there's more to come.
You're thinking of Forgotten Realms.
Lame. FR is the single best campaign world I have ever played in, period. And that is over a nearly 30 year D&D gaming timeline. Ravenloft was (and is) also awsome. Ones that suck include: Dark Sun, Planescape, Spelljammer (D&D in Space!), Greyhawk (Gods how that almost made me forget all about playing AD&D), and Ebberon (Steam-Punk anyone?).
Besides, since the first day WoTC took over TSR they have done their best to make it into the Gods awful M:TG crap that brought them their early fame. Now all they are trying for is WoW the tabletop game, aka 4E D&D.
BTW, Ed Greenwood is a GOD!
What is the big thing about Horror Roleplaying Games? What is it that should be different from the rest of them? It's the factor of the unknown. You don't know what your really up against. You might know a little of the why, but you don't really understand it. It could be that person down the street that just went gonzo bonzer because he tripped over the cat once too many times. It could be that someone found something that they shouldn't of, and it killed the whole crew. Maybe no one goes out into the fog at night because wolves come out and eat your soul while you're not looking.
The real point, the REAL one, is that you can't have Horror Roleplaying with too much information. It's what makes Call of Cthulu so intriguing when you come right down to it, is that there isn't a lot of information. Someone might be murdering in the name of an ancient god, drawing weird things in blood. It might be someone in the town. It might be the school teacher. It might be the sheriff. It might be the hermit on the edge of town. No one knows. Whats worse is that know one knows if it's just him, or something more.
Horror is about LACK of information. This is where the modules of Ravensloft are superior to the Setting of Ravensloft.
Keep your players in the dark. Use the old books if you have to, but keep them in the dark. That is what makes horror horrifying.
Lame. FR is the single best campaign world I have ever played in, period.
I'm so sorry.
You know, for someone who wants to run a horror game, it seems to me that WOTC has done you a favor. Especially if you have a bunch of new players.
What is the big thing about Horror Roleplaying Games? What is it that should be different from the rest of them? It's the factor of the unknown. You don't know what your really up against. You might know a little of the why, but you don't really understand it. It could be that person down the street that just went gonzo bonzer because he tripped over the cat once too many times. It could be that someone found something that they shouldn't of, and it killed the whole crew. Maybe no one goes out into the fog at night because wolves come out and eat your soul while you're not looking.
The real point, the REAL one, is that you can't have Horror Roleplaying with too much information. It's what makes Call of Cthulu so intriguing when you come right down to it, is that there isn't a lot of information. Someone might be murdering in the name of an ancient god, drawing weird things in blood. It might be someone in the town. It might be the school teacher. It might be the sheriff. It might be the hermit on the edge of town. No one knows. Whats worse is that know one knows if it's just him, or something more.
Horror is about LACK of information. This is where the modules of Ravensloft are superior to the Setting of Ravensloft.
Keep your players in the dark. Use the old books if you have to, but keep them in the dark. That is what makes horror horrifying.
My name is Joseph Silver, and I support this post.
Vampire: The Masquerade became less of a horror RPG and more of a superheroes with fangs game as I read more and more splatbooks. It felt a lot scarier when I didn't know as much about the setting.
What's that? Vampirism damns your soul forever? Nope, you can get out through Golconda. Losing your humanity a downward spiral into oblivion? Nope, you can take a Path to negate the effects of lost humanity.
The same thing happened in Mage: The Awakening. When I first started playing, the Technocrats were basically fascists that brutally enforced the status quo. But as I learned more about the Technocratic Union, I realized that they aren't as bad as I thought (they basically work to prevent magic from becoming too powerful and end up enslaving those who can't use it).
So yeah, horror = lack of information.
Also, I'm kind of amused that the Raven Queen makes her home near, but not *in* Ravenloft.
Raven's loft?
Why did you dissect Ravenloft into absolute nothingness???
You give us a paragraph in the manual of the planes, you are giving the stats for Strahd, and that's about it. You took an absolutely gorgeous setting and turned it into nothing.
Where are the histories, where are the darklords, where are the vistani, where!!!!!
For those of you that disagree with me - that's fine. I don't care. Everyone has a right to their opinion.
In my honest opinion - Wotc has destroyed Ravenloft.
Spoken in ignorance.
Lacks any semblance of patience.
Amounts to no more than another "WotC = Evil Empire" knee-jerk rant.
Lame FR is the single best campaign world I have ever played in, period.
Post corrected with great justice.
Besides, I'm not inclined to approve of the opinions of people that can't love Eberron.
You just rolled a critical fumble for sarcasm recognition.
This vvv
Oooo you guys got me good...
...Yawn...Post corrected with great justice.
Besides, I'm not inclined to approve of the opinions of people that can't love Eberron.
FR is (well was for sure, not a huge fan of all the stuff they have done) a superior world....Ebberon is weak sauce....Also I am not sure that we need your approval on the subjective matter that is the worlds we prefer to game in...
Oooo you guys got me good...
Nobody was trying to "get you." We were just pointing out that you missed the sarcasm of the post. It's not your fault, sarcasm is very difficult to convey over the internet.
FR is (well was for sure, not a huge fan of all the stuff they have done) a superior world....Ebberon is weak sauce....Also I am not sure that we need your approval on the subjective matter that is the worlds we prefer to game in...
I've always felt that FR was monumentally boring. The whole map was already explored, every town had a 15th level barkeep, and the Uber-NPCs kept any possible danger or excitement at bay.
I've always felt that FR was monumentally boring. The whole map was already explored, every town had a 15th level barkeep, and the Uber-NPCs kept any possible danger or excitement at bay.
Agreed. Also, FR felt pretty generic. Evil wizards, evil drow, evil gods, all pretty run of the mill fantasy. There were a lot more interesting ideas in Eberron.
I've always felt that FR was monumentally boring. The whole map was already explored, every town had a 15th level barkeep, and the Uber-NPCs kept any possible danger or excitement at bay.
I personally find that Eb tries too hard to be different...there are a few things I like from it, well two things....PC golems and Action Points...the rest is meh...
I've always felt that FR was monumentally boring. The whole map was already explored, every town had a 15th level barkeep, and the Uber-NPCs kept any possible danger or excitement at bay.
Don't forget having to shake your boots out each morning to make sure a god isn't nesting in there.
Or Elminster, who's actually more powerful than most of them and shows up even more often.
Or Elminster, who's actually more powerful than most of them and shows up even more often.
Not any more...
Not any more...
Please, he's the only known Mystra's Chosen to have survived her death, was ancient as all get out at the time of her fall, and he's still alive?
Any bets on Elminster pulling a Xvim and giving birth to the new 'Mystra' in some way, shape, or form?
Why did you dissect Ravenloft into absolute nothingness???
You give us a paragraph in the manual of the planes, you are giving the stats for Strahd, and that's about it. You took an absolutely gorgeous setting and turned it into nothing.
Where are the histories, where are the darklords, where are the vistani, where!!!!!
For those of you that disagree with me - that's fine. I don't care. Everyone has a right to their opinion.
In my honest opinion - Wotc has destroyed Ravenloft.
i never cared for a setting dedicated to horror, I think horror works better when it is unexpected.
my best horror games in d&d were in darksun as well as our homebrew generic fantasy setting.
Not any more...
Oh just you wait.
Was the least important / interesting setting anyhow.
I disagree completely with this statement, but i also disagree with the assertion that Ravenloft has been 'Destroyed'. its always been a setting that was a part of every other setting, and i see no need to have ravenloft-specific sourcebooks. Just info about ravenloft stuff in appropriate places is more than enough.
IMHO, the least interesting and most craptacular setting was Forgotten Realms, followed by Dark Sun. I like a lot of FR characters, but the setting is just a generic god wars setting.
Edit: ah, i see others already expressed similar opinions. I shall consider myself ninja'd.
Oh just you wait.Mary Sue'sElminster'sMary Sue's gonna strike back hard.
And he's likely going to be as ineffectual as ever, unless my earlier prediction holds true.
I just realized... a lot of the 'weaker' Chosen in the Realms seem to have a much greater legacy, than Elminster, even if they don't get mentioned as often... Blackstaff's Waterdeep, the Simbul's Aglarond, even Alustriel's Silverymoon and Luruar.
Then again, my favorite Realms character was always Volo, so eh.
And he's likely going to be as ineffectual as ever, unless my earlier prediction holds true.
I just realized... a lot of the 'weaker' Chosen in the Realms seem to have a much greater legacy, than Elminster, even if they don't get mentioned as often... Blackstaff's Waterdeep, the Simbul's Aglarond, even Alustriel's Silverymoon and Luruar.
Then again, my favorite Realms character was always Volo, so eh.
I just want Drizzt back
I know hes widely despised, but i liked him a lot. Hed make a great Exarch or even a cool God. Patron deity of kick-arse dual-wielding ninja swordmasters.I just want Drizzt back
He was an interesting read at the beginning, but... I really, really, could have done without the smarmy little 'journal' entries that cropped up from time to time.
Post corrected with great justice.
Besides, I'm not inclined to approve of the opinions of people that can't love Eberron.
FR is (well was for sure, not a huge fan of all the stuff they have done) a superior world....Ebberon is weak sauce....Also I am not sure that we need your approval on the subjective matter that is the worlds we prefer to game in...
Hey, guys, cut it out. I love Greyhawk more than Eberron or the Realms, but I like all three settings.
Put it aside and save our hatred for something worthy of it, like if WotC put out a Smurfs or Neopets based campaign world...
Hey, guys, cut it out. I love Greyhawk more than Eberron or the Realms, but I like all three settings.
Put it aside and save our hatred for something worthy of it, like if WotC put out a Smurfs or Neopets based campaign world...
That's what all the focus on the Fey is for, didn't you know? It's all just build up to putting in stats for Smurfs somewhere in the Feywild.
Vampire: The Masquerade became less of a horror RPG and more of a superheroes with fangs game as I read more and more splatbooks. It felt a lot scarier when I didn't know as much about the setting.
Epic Win.
Losing your humanity a downward spiral into oblivion? Nope, you can take a Path to negate the effects of lost humanity.
Epic Win again.
What's that? Vampirism damns your soul forever? Nope, you can get out through Golconda.
Epic Fail. If a ST did Golconda correctly, it was fantastically and spectacularly awesome. A V:tM game with all darkness, baddies, and Emo-bloodsuckers without a small shred of hope was boring. It's the tiny flickering light amidst the darkness that makes role-playing in a Horror Game good; and Golconda was just that (if it was done right).
Hey, 2/3 ain't bad! Great post overall, I give it a 9/10. :D
Lame. FR is the single best campaign world I have ever played in, period. And that is over a nearly 30 year D&D gaming timeline. Ravenloft was (and is) also awsome. Ones that suck include: Dark Sun, Planescape, Spelljammer (D&D in Space!), Greyhawk (Gods how that almost made me forget all about playing AD&D), and Ebberon (Steam-Punk anyone?).
No, suck is reserved for such atrocities as Maztica, Horde and Tale of the Comet. Karu-Tur comes close. All three suffer from the "directly ripped from the real world" syndrome without nary an attempt to make it fanciful. Ravenloft somehow managed to go beyond the gothic books from which it was borne by quite a bit, whereas the other three were mere transplants with no elivening. I'd probably also throw Lankhmar and the Amber world on it too.
I think, as DT first stated, Ravenloft is going back to the "weekend in hell" it was originally. In many ways I think it will benefit, because if you want, you can put any two or more of the Isles of Dread next to each other as needed.
In fact I wish it hadn't gotten the treatment for 2e or 3.x. I thought that was a terrible idea back then & I still hold that opinion.
Don't get me wrong. I love both Ravenloft (as well as its 2E & 3.5 versions) and its sequel Ravenloft II: The House on Gryphon Hill.
And I really like most of the 2e RL modules and guides.
But Ravenloft is not a world. Or a campaign setting. It's the name of 1 very particular location.....
What I don't like is the fact that the originals great name was turned into a fancy logo and then slapped onto box holding such a poor excuse for a setting. A setting that too few were able to run effectively, thus creating the common belief that everything "RL" was going to be over the top monsters and never-ending horror checks/maddness effects. It's amazing, the name/logo simultainiously sells & ruins the entire product line!
To this day I run into people who's overwhelming concept of that product line is so tainted that they simply refuse to play if they even see one of the guides, modules etc present.
My preffered way of running Ravenloft (either the original modules or the later stuff) is to simply weave it into the "natural" course of play. The PCs don't (ussually) get snared by the mists. Rather they simply stumble upon some area where really bad things are happening. And since they're adventurers, I don't often have to rely upon contrivences to keep them in the area....
And I've yet to have anyone make a maddness test, inflict taint, or overly change up spell effects etc. It's not really needed.
In my honest opinion - Wotc has destroyed Ravenloft.
Not at all. At worst, WotC has simply not yet fleshed out Ravenloft.
Why did you dissect Ravenloft into absolute nothingness??
You give us a paragraph in the manual of the planes, you are giving the stats for Strahd, and that's about it. You took an absolutely gorgeous setting and turned it into nothing.
Where are the histories, where are the darklords, where are the vistani, where!!!!!
For those of you that disagree with me - that's fine. I don't care. Everyone has a right to their opinion.
In my honest opinion - Wotc has destroyed Ravenloft.
No, they’ve just decided to scavenge the setting to pad the Shadowfell
I disagree.
Well, that was a productive use of a post…
Was the least important / interesting setting anyhow.
Every setting is someone’s favourite. I find Greyhawk absolutely terrible, cliché, and boring but I don’t troll the Greyhawk boards saying so.
Read: "A company decided to produce material for my setting of choice, but I'm spoiled and don't have the patience to wait for a full-fledged release. So instead of being mature and considering the situation, I'm going to whine about it on that company's message board where everyone will see me for exactly what I am!"
2/10 - would have been 3/10 but you used the word "dissect" improperly.
Spelljammer and Ravenloft fans have a right to be irked. WotC is taking bits and pieces from their campaign to pad and add fluff to the Core setting, but not actually using any of the main background of the settings.
It’s like stealing Menzoberranzan as the drow capital but not actually giving it a tenth of its detail. Or adding templars, dragon kings, and a silt sea to the generic setting.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe they'll do a full book on Ravenloft further down the line? Two, actually, since their model seems to be a Campaign Setting book and Player's Guide book for each setting. They've done Forgotten Realms, we know Eberron is next, but after that? I'm crossing my fingers for Dark Sun and Ravenloft.
Not likely. Much like Greyhawk was used for fluff in 3e but never actually got a real campaign setting release (not counting the RPGA released book that was straight history/fluff).
You're thinking of Forgotten Realms.
Anyway, the MotP isn't a setting book, it's a fluff supplement for the new Axis Cosmology. As such, they're just working on showing off the shiny, not going into depth about things.
In the process, they've show us tastes of how Spelljammer, Planescape and Ravenloft all have a place in the new cosmology -- but it is NOT meant to be a sourcebook for these three.
Patience, my friend. The fact that they went out of their way to give a nod to these means they're giving them thought. Which means eventually the money monster will call for the creation of these books.
Again, like Greyhawk in 3e.
Or they’ll continue to use them to add fluff and as a source of stealable ideas (Sigil in DMG2) while releasing unrelated campaign settings (Dark Sun, Dragonlance, Hollow World)
Really? I thought the 2010 setting was intended to be Planescape.
With MotP all but covering the full planes, and Sigil being covered there and in the DMG2, what would be left for a two planescape sourcebooks?
I expect that they'll be putting Ravenloft back to it's original "week in hell" purpose instead of bringing back the tiny poorly duct taped together campaign world. An act that will send the setting loyalists into fits of rage and make the setting actually playable to everyone else. Personally I think it's for the best, as while the White Wolf, er I mean Swords and Sorcery run for 3.5 sucked mechanically it was decently flavored, but it kept the poor world design (the one that kept you from going to half the world) and ripping that apart to fix the campaign setting would have also caused massive fan rage. This way I can continue on hacking the world to actually pretend to work as a game and not have to listen to the screams of those who are terrible with design, but can't admit it to themselves.
Yeah, they’ve stripped Ravenloft down to its most simple and basic (and shallow) just so it can be forced into more people’s games.
Whee.
I’m not against the Weekend in Hell being emphasised. I was pushing that (and Ravenloft being heavily featured in Dragon) early in the 4e announcement. But I think that can be done without changing the world or ******* on the fans.
I loved what Swords&Sorcery/ArtHaus did by focusing on adding to the world (even if the mechanics were sub-par). But after seeing what they did to the Realms (“hey, if we nuke the world they can’t use old books for fluff anymore and they’ll have to buy all new sources of information!”) I’m not really surprised that Ravenloft is being treated similarly.
Unlike Eberron which is apparently being fondled and lovingly treated.
I've always felt that FR was monumentally boring. The whole map was already explored, every town had a 15th level barkeep, and the Uber-NPCs kept any possible danger or excitement at bay.
That’s what FR became. Not what it was. I loved reading the dog-earned AD&D grey box set of FR back in the day. It seemed so open with so many places to adventure and so many unrelated stories to tell (unlike Dragonlance which seemed very much about one or two things, but that didn’t stop me from enjoying it either).
But posts like the above are still the reason it was nuked…
Agreed. Also, FR felt pretty generic. Evil wizards, evil drow, evil gods, all pretty run of the mill fantasy. There were a lot more interesting ideas in Eberron.
If you wanted generic though, it was good. Generic fantasy, after 30 years of D&D and 20 years of FR, has become rather blasé.
Eberron… I kinda, sorta like. The book was fun and it seemed thematically interesting. But it felt purposely empty… Much like the new FR books. Gaps that were left not because it was a mystery for DMs or as adventure hooks, but because they were hooks for novels. “There are 12 dragonmarks. There were 13 but not there are 12. The 13th is gone. But, oh, we have a book on it coming out in two months”.
I disagree completely with this statement, but i also disagree with the assertion that Ravenloft has been 'Destroyed'. its always been a setting that was a part of every other setting, and i see no need to have ravenloft-specific sourcebooks. Just info about ravenloft stuff in appropriate places is more than enough.
IMHO, the least interesting and most craptacular setting was Forgotten Realms, followed by Dark Sun. I like a lot of FR characters, but the setting is just a generic god wars setting.
Edit: ah, i see others already expressed similar opinions. I shall consider myself ninja'd.
But why move it to the Shadowfell? Sure, they removed the ethereal plane but they still have demilplanes. There’s no reason Ravenloft couldn’t have been a demiplane like Dream.
Ravenloft works well with its own feywild and shadowfell. It needs dark and wild reflections as well and the common folk need to go somewhere when they die.
And horror works best when its paired with the mundane and normal. Places where PCs “are only concerned with escape” are, by definition, not mundane or normal.
turning the setting into the shadow fell works for weekend in hell, it works for complete settings, in every regard one can count, it simply works.
ravenloft not your cup of tea? don't play in it, its also appreciated if your not on ravenloft forums telling fans how trite or how boring or how much you don't like it without some back up ( minus a few of you of course );) somone might mistake you for an instigating troll.
for those who think forgotten realms might be destroyed take heart, in the description of the shadowfell they mention old ruins and places that don't exist on the material plane now lodged firmly into the shadowfell. and vice versa. so places missing may still exists just a bit different.
it works for complete settings, in every regard one can count, it simply works.
How does it work as a complete setting if it's no longer a unified land mass? A couple things to point out:
1) Each world has its own Shadowfell reflection. The Shadowfell isn't a single massive domain like the Astral Sea or Elemental Chaos. There's one of it for every single world. There's a Toril Shadowfell, Krynn Shadowfell, Athas Shadowfell, Eberron Shadowfell, Cerilia Shadowfell, etc. That's very different from the Astral Sea, which is the same Astral Sea for everybody.
2) Domains of Dread within the Shadowfell are few and far between. The entire Shadowfell for a world isn't a Domain of Dread. Just a few bits here and there. Which means that only tiny slivers of the Shadowfell are representative of Ravenloft. Hardly what one could call a coherent campaign setting.
3) With each setting having its own Shadowfell reflection, we're bound to see those domains tied to a specific campaign setting end up in that worlds Shadowfell. So Hazlan will probably be a Domain of Dread in the Toril Shadowfell, while Sithicus is a Domain of Dread in the Krynn Shadowfell, Darkon is a Domain of Dread in the Oerth Shadowfell, and Barovia may be a Domain of Dread in the Core World Shadowfell. If that's the case, then not only will they NOT border each other, anymore, but it'll be next to impossible to get from one to the other. That certainly doesn't qualify as a workable campaign setting. After all, one can hardly lay claim to Krynn, Toril, Oerth, etc as being a single campaign setting.
So no, in every regard it doesn't work. Ravenloft, as it exists now, can't possibly exist in the Shadowfell, because as explained above, there's a Shadowfell for every world in existence. And Ravenloft is certainly not the reflection of any ONE world (and in fact takes elements from numerous worlds). And if it's divvied up so that those lands which correspond to those worlds end up as Domains of Dread in their respective Shadowfell, then it isn't a cohesive campaign setting by any stretch of the imagination. So nope, that hardly looks like a win-win to me.
A real win-win would've been to introduce the Domain of Dread concept, while keeping a Demiplane of Dread, which is far worse and harder to escape than any Domain of Dread. A demiplane which emulates the properties of material worlds in many ways, including having its own Feywild and Shadowfell reflection. Now THAT would've been the best of both worlds. We'll see how things go, but when it comes to Ravenloft as a functioning campaign setting? Things don't look good.
i don't think the shadowfell exactly works as you say it works, i think there is one shadowfell that mirrors most of those other realms. and those realms overlap eachother, as per the descriptions on shadowfell. i recall it mentioning there are places, towers, castles that resemble what may be ruins in one structure in plane 1. and then ruins where there never was anything built in the first place. i think those as possibly being from planes 2 or 3 or even 4. though there is nothing to confirm or deny this just yet.
the source for this info i think is from the worlds and monsters essay that came out before fourth edition. i'll look into manual of the planes later to confim this. the only contrary point against that is the rpga which doesn't allow the raven queen to be worshiped as a god. but never to my knowledge mentions she doesn't exist in Forgotten realms.
the shadowfell has native humans,elves,teiflings, and others. even they have to make a start at a level somthing so a dm could still start a game in the shadowfell which leads to a sliver of the essence of ravenloft. not exactly what your talking about. the setting becomes shadowfell + ravenloft. a very second edition point of view.
i'll agree with you, in the regard that the demiplanes won't border eachother,, except for mistways. which could still be used as a "highway" but i don't think it makes traveling any more or less impossible then any other realm. if its not a big deal that waterdeep doesn't border cormyr or halruaa in forgotten realms that it shouldn't be that much bore of a big deal about the distance. i cite the mistways still being around from the last two novels set in ravenloft where london of one age meets an american plantation from a separate age in that clockwork angels story. the into to the black crusade starts us in one of those mistways. so they must exist.
if the above is true of what i said about there being one shadowfell then that omits the reasoning of your third point which is based on there being many shadowfells.;) if the "map" for ravenloft wasn't the same as before. i don't think i'll mind or care. as long as the domains are intact. besdies comes a second point based on the misty borders turning you around and to another domain alltogether. leaving barovia in the south and then having a dm roll the dice to see if you really do get to forlorn or your now in lamordia.
i disagree with ravenloft having its own shadowfell/ feywild, the ravenloft is dark enough already, how much more "dark-y" can you make it with its own shadowfell? lol i love the feywild and i hope they have a few fey wandering "ravenloft", but they shouldn't make a parallel of fey-stuff to the domains, like a fey-barovia? and strahd, that he really isn't a man but a "gasp" ? a fairy masqurading as a man?:embarrass
How does it work as a complete setting if it's no longer a unified land mass?
It exists as a place between both space and time. Ravenloft is a shadow in a dark room or a flash of memory. It's a place just beyond your field of vision and right before your eyes. The realms of dread are the prisons of creatures too foul and twisted to be allowed to be left where they were. They are the places where all things great and small should fear to tread. Only the Vistanni know what lies just beyond the mists. And in their tales, evil still walks...
I personally find that Eb tries too hard to be different...there are a few things I like from it, well two things....PC golems and Action Points...the rest is meh...
And where else, pray tell, had a glorious empire of the goblinoids in it's history? Or Orcs as the first druids? Eberron turned alot of the stereotypes on their ears. When you throw away the security blanket of the Forgotten Realms, you may see it or you may just long for the return of your blanket.
It exists as a place between both space and time. Ravenloft is a shadow in a dark room or a flash of memory. It's a place just beyond your field of vision and right before your eyes. The realms of dread are the prisons of creatures too foul and twisted to be allowed to be left where they were. They are the places where all things great and small should fear to tread. Only the Vistanni know what lies just beyond the mists. And in their tales, evil still walks...
you said what i wanted to say much better =] thanks !
i don't think the shadowfell exactly works as you say it works, i think there is one shadowfell that mirrors most of those other realms. and those realms overlap eachother
It's not an exact copy, no, but I'm 100% right about there being multiple Shadowfells. There's a Shadowfell for Toril, one for Krynn, one for Athas, one for Oerth, etc. Same goes for the Feywild. Which means that unless you've got access to extraplanar travel, you're not gonna have an easy time getting from the Krynn Shadowfell to the Toril Shadowfell.
the source for this info i think is from the worlds and monsters essay that came out before fourth edition.
I've got that, and it doesn't say what you think it says. It's an echo of the world, not ALL the worlds. For example, Evermeet exists in the Toril Feywild, but it DOESN'T exist in the Core Setting Feywild, or Oerth Feywild.
i'll look into manual of the planes later to confim this. the only contrary point against that is the rpga which doesn't allow the raven queen to be worshiped as a god. but never to my knowledge mentions she doesn't exist in Forgotten realms.
She doesn't exist in the Forgotten Realms. Just because there's nothing saying she doesn't doesn't mean she does. May as well argue that the Go-Bots exist on Faerun by that logic.
if its not a big deal that waterdeep doesn't border cormyr or halruaa in forgotten realms that it shouldn't be that much bore of a big deal about the distance.
It's not a big deal if Waterdeep doesn't border Halruaa, no. But it IS a big deal if Waterdeep borders Solamnia, and Halruaa is now located on Oerth, which is the prospect we're looking at here. A section of Ravenloft bordering something that's not Ravenloft, with another section of Ravenloft located in a whole other plane. That's hardly condusive to a longterm campaign.
if the above is true of what i said about there being one shadowfell
It's not. The Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos are infinite, but the Shadowfell and Feywild aren't. That's because there's more than one Shadowfell and Feywild. Go and ask any one of the designers posting around these boards and see what they say. Odds are they'll agree with me (or rather, they'll point out that I'm agreeing with them).
i disagree with ravenloft having its own shadowfell/ feywild, the ravenloft is dark enough already, how much more "dark-y" can you make it with its own shadowfell?
This is how:
Perhaps the most insidious effect the Shadowfell has is a mental one. Those who travel the plane pay a heavy emotional price. It begins with a banked enthusiasm, a quenching of the fires of optimism beneath the heavy weight of sadness. Failure seems assured, hopelessness dogs every step. Depression wraps its cancerous claws about the heart. Although this melancholy in no way interferes with the ability (or lack thereof ) to attain one’s objectives, each day is a trial of resolve. Travelers must ever steel their hearts against the powerful presence of sorrow.
For most people in Ravenloft, life is as normal as any other campaign setting. The average person in Mordent doesn't experience this sort of feeling on a regular basis. Whatever else Ravenloft is, it's not as relentlessly oppressive as the Shadowfell is, and isn't solely populated by emo wristslitters.
lol i love the feywild and i hope they have a few fey wandering "ravenloft", but they shouldn't make a parallel of fey-stuff to the domains, like a fey-barovia? and strahd, that he really isn't a man but a "gasp" ? a fairy masqurading as a man?:embarrass
I don't think you quite understand how the planes work. There aren't fey versions of people in the world in the Feywild. There's no fey version of King Azoun in the Toril Feywild or anything of the sort. Likewise, there wouldn't be a fey version of Strahd.
It's not an exact copy, no, but I'm 100% right about there being multiple Shadowfells. There's a Shadowfell for Toril, one for Krynn, one for Athas, one for Oerth, etc. Same goes for the Feywild. Which means that unless you've got access to extraplanar travel, you're not gonna have an easy time getting from the Krynn Shadowfell to the Toril Shadowfell.
i've looked through manual of the planes, and i don't have access to the older books from worlds and monsters at this time, so im going to have to call you out on this and ask for a direct quote. they mention one world. one world which some people call this or that. that being the case i think manual of the planes is written to be a catch all for all worlds on page 7. and if there is a notable difference they will post a little side thing in the campaign setting book. also plane skipping is not as difficult as it was in 3rd edition and i think they intend to solve that issue as it occurs. infact i think they expect a certain amount of planeskipping. another point which may put both issues to rest is that once said demiplane is created, the "source" plane is obsolete. so by that theory.your not trying to gain access by being rerouted to thier material plane then thier version of the shadow fell then hop again to the demiplane. i think its a direct shot to said demiplane.
I've got that, and it doesn't say what you think it says. It's an echo of the world, not ALL the worlds. For example, Evermeet exists in the Toril Feywild, but it DOESN'T exist in the Core Setting Feywild, or Oerth Feywild.
agree to disagree.
She doesn't exist in the Forgotten Realms. Just because there's nothing saying she doesn't doesn't mean she does. May as well argue that the Go-Bots exist on Faerun by that logic.
can't argue that sort of logic now can i?
It's not a big deal if Waterdeep doesn't border Halruaa, no. But it IS a big deal if Waterdeep borders Solamnia, and Halruaa is now located on Oerth, which is the prospect we're looking at here. A section of Ravenloft bordering something that's not Ravenloft, with another section of Ravenloft located in a whole other plane. That's hardly condusive to a longterm campaign.
i think i went over your head on that one. im talking about the shadowfell planes imposing on one another, so the slivers of demiplanes you get don't really matter where they came from, just that they exist. and you fall into them. it won't be as third or second edition where you cross the border from barovia to forlorn again. and personally i think that was not very common either, the mists themselves are tricky at best.
It's not. The Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos are infinite, but the Shadowfell and Feywild aren't. That's because there's more than one Shadowfell and Feywild. Go and ask any one of the designers posting around these boards and see what they say. Odds are they'll agree with me (or rather, they'll point out that I'm agreeing with them).
again i'll have to call you out on that particular note. :D
This is how:
For most people in Ravenloft, life is as normal as any other campaign setting. The average person in Mordent doesn't experience this sort of feeling on a regular basis. Whatever else Ravenloft is, it's not as relentlessly oppressive as the Shadowfell is, and isn't solely populated by emo wristslitters.
lol. theres nothing emo about the shadar kai if thats who your refering to. they are described as hedonists. pleasure seekers. and very emotional. they have thier sad points, but when that happens they fade away to shadows.
I don't think you quite understand how the planes work. There aren't fey versions of people in the world in the Feywild. There's no fey version of King Azoun in the Toril Feywild or anything of the sort. Likewise, there wouldn't be a fey version of Strahd.
ah. that was a joke. i failed at being funny
i hope im not offending, i just love good debate =D
so im going to have to call you out on this and ask for a direct quote
How about a comment by one of the designers?
"Each "world" has its own Feywild and Shadowfell" - Rich Baker
Common sense would dictate that that's the case, though. The Feywild and Shadowfell are specifically described as being a reflection of "the world". In this case, "the world" is the implied campaign setting described in the main books.
By extension, when playing Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Dragonlance, or Dark Sun, "the world" is now Toril, Eberron, Krynn, or Athas. Which means that they, in turn, should have their own Feywild and Shadowfell reflections. That's the logical conclusion which most people have drawn from reading those passages.
What doesn't make sense, however, is saying that there's only a single Shadowfell plane, and yet it somehow reflects all the worlds. How's that possible? Athas and Eberron, for instance, are nothing alike. How can the Shadowfell possibly be a reflection of both Athas and Eberron? The answer is it can't, in which case it won't be a reflection of either. So either it's a reflection or it's not. The only way the Feywild and Shadowfell CAN be reflections of the various material worlds is if there's a different Feywild and Shadowfell for every world.
can't argue that sort of logic now can i?
And you think your comment was terribly logical?
A campaign setting doesn't have to produce an exhaustive list of things which don't exist in the campaign setting for you to know they don't exist. The lack of mention is plenty of evidence they don't exist. Cars aren't explicitly called out as not existing on Faerun. Does that mean they do exist? Defilers aren't explicitly called out as not existing on Faerun. Does that mean they do exist? Hextor, Heironeous, and Pelor, aren't explicitly called out as not being worshipped on Faerun. Does that mean that they are worshipped? Stating that the lack of mention of not existing is somehow proof of the existence of something is ludicrous. Especially when you already have a deity in the Forgotten Realms, Kelemvor, who performs the same exact function on Faerun. You'd think that if the Raven Queen did exist in Faerun, then they'd make SOME mention of how she's dueling with Kelemvor over the same job.
i think i went over your head on that one. im talking about the shadowfell planes imposing on one another, so the slivers of demiplanes you get don't really matter where they came from, just that they exist. and you fall into them. it won't be as third or second edition where you cross the border from barovia to forlorn again. and personally i think that was not very common either, the mists themselves are tricky at best.
And I think you missed my point. With there being multiple Shadowfells, that means that all those domains which're based off of other campaign settings, like Hazlan, Sithicus, Darkon, etc, will find themselves physically situated in the Shadowfells of those specific worlds. Which means that they'll no longer be physicall connected to each other. Cormyr and Halruaa don't border each other, no, but your adventurer can still walk or ride from Cormyr to Halruaa. That'll no longer be the case, however, as Barovia and Darkon will now be situated on two different planets, if not two different planes! Can you honestly not see how that'd put a damper on making it a campaign setting?
Sure, you could still rely on mistways connecting them, but that's not quite the same as having them all physically co-exist in the same demiplane, and it presents its own problems. Does exiting one Domain of Dread automatically lead you into another Domain of Dread in the Shadowfell of another world? And what do you see before you cross the border? Do you see the rest of the Torillian Shadowfell stretched out before you when you're about to leave Hazlan, do you see the Barovian land, or do you just see a wall of mist?
Whatever the case, if Ravenloft does end up being split up among the Shadowfells of various worlds as I suspect, then I hope they do rely on mistways to salvage it. Hopefully exiting one Domain of Dread will lead you to another Domain of Dread, even if that Domain of Dread is located in the Shadowfell of another world. That way, for those stuck within them, it'll SEEM as if they live in one interconnected landmass, even if that's not the case. I just hope that if they're ever shown on maps that they keep the same borders, that way we can fit them all back together later on.
lol. theres nothing emo about the shadar kai if thats who your refering to. they are described as hedonists. pleasure seekers. and very emotional. they have thier sad points, but when that happens they fade away to shadows.
I'm referring to that quote I posted. Here it is, again.
Perhaps the most insidious effect the Shadowfell has is a mental one. Those who travel the plane pay a heavy emotional price. It begins with a banked enthusiasm, a quenching of the fires of optimism beneath the heavy weight of sadness. Failure seems assured, hopelessness dogs every step. Depression wraps its cancerous claws about the heart. Although this melancholy in no way interferes with the ability (or lack thereof) to attain one’s objectives, each day is a trial of resolve. Travelers must ever steel their hearts against the powerful presence of sorrow.
This is not something that the natives of Ravenloft are subjected to on a constant basis. As I said earlier, the natives live normal lives for the most part, no different from people in regular worlds. What you see described, above, is not the case in Ravenloft for the entirety of the populace.
Funny how I mentioned natives of the Shadowfell and you immediately jumped to the Shadar-Kai, though. That's another strike against Ravenloft being the Shadowfell. Shadar-Kai being all over the place. I'd hardly call their presence a good thing.
anyone else have this problem?so i'll make a few comments to you about the shadowfell ravenloft conjecture.
1 congrats on finding the qoute from rick baker
2 if ravenloft were to be the shadowfell, then the world wouldn't be ravenloft. fr shadowfell, ebberon shadowfell and dragonlance shadowfell with slivers of demiplanes that can be traveled to. the problem isn't if the shadowfell is a reflection of the world or isn't. its an "imperfect" reflexion of the world. in manual of the planes there are cities in the shadowfell that don't exist on other worlds... period. that may include those demiplanes which may have started on other worlds but are not connected to them in any way. so in essence whatever shadowfell your on, your just as likely to bump into these demiplanes regardless of start.
3 plane hopping and world hopping have been a staple of dungeons and dragons since second editon. rather then try to break my grammatical mistakes over my head and get all petulant with gobot talk and cars... how about i just sum up what i ment to say and give you a chance to be cordial? rather then condescending.
from blackstaff to elminster to spalljammer to sigil and previous editions of the planes books commits to the fact that other gods and other worlds exist. thats not in dispute. what may be in dispute planes hopping in the 4th is much easier then before. so if one were to start a game in the shadowfell , have a dm bump them into a few demiplanes. either of those are not problems in the current incarnation of the 4th edition. and while it won't be the same as previous ravenloft versions, its still works. and thats what we are talking about. i agree with you it doesn't work as before but it does work.
once a demiplane starts off in one world i don't see them stuck on that particular shadowplane. its another creature altogether.
i guess an analogy would be to grab a couple of donuts, the ones with the holes and place them overtop eachother. that 'hole' is the demi plane, so plain donut for dragonlance, chocolate covered for Forgotten realms and then sprinkles for darksun, lol. the holes in these shadowfells is the demiplane. always constant.
"Sure, you could still rely on mistways connecting them, but that's not quite the same as having them all physically co-exist in the same demiplane, and it presents its own problems. Does exiting one Domain of Dread automatically lead you into another Domain of Dread in the Shadowfell of another world? And what do you see before you cross the border? Do you see the rest of the Torillian Shadowfell stretched out before you when you're about to leave Hazlan, do you see the Barovian land, or do you just see a wall of mist?
Whatever the case, if Ravenloft does end up being split up among the Shadowfells of various worlds as I suspect, then I hope they do rely on mistways to salvage it. Hopefully exiting one Domain of Dread will lead you to another Domain of Dread, even if that Domain of Dread is located in the Shadowfell of another world. That way, for those stuck within them, it'll SEEM as if they live in one interconnected landmass, even if that's not the case. I just hope that if they're ever shown on maps that they keep the same borders, that way we can fit them all back together later on"
- green knight.
i agree with everything in these two paragraphs. ;)
"Funny how I mentioned natives of the Shadowfell and you immediately jumped to the Shadar-Kai, though. That's another strike against Ravenloft being the Shadowfell. Shadar-Kai being all over the place. I'd hardly call their presence a good thing."
- green knight.
i mentioned shadar kai because they are the ones attacked most often on these boards. emo wrist slitters are what they are usually called.
i don't see it as a strike in any way. shadar kai in ravenloft can be a great thing. they give a dm all sorts of "dark city" like hooks and plot lines that can be use to progress a story.
to jester. - if ravenloft is the shadowfell then thats where they go, previous incarnations of ravenloft including 3.0 and 3.5 had bonuses to undead and nagative energy critters and outsiders...
2 if ravenloft were to be the shadowfell, then the world wouldn't be ravenloft. fr shadowfell, ebberon shadowfell and dragonlance shadowfell with slivers of demiplanes that can be traveled to. the problem isn't if the shadowfell is a reflection of the world or isn't. its an "imperfect" reflexion of the world. in manual of the planes there are cities in the shadowfell that don't exist on other worlds... period. that may include those demiplanes which may have started on other worlds but are not connected to them in any way. so in essence whatever shadowfell your on, your just as likely to bump into these demiplanes regardless of start.
Yes, they're imperfect reflections, but that doesn't mean that a place which is a reflection of one world is going to end up in the Shadowfell of another world. You're arguing for something which just isn't the case. Hazlan is a reflection of Faerun. So unless it's in a demiplane, it'll be in the Toril Shadowfell. They're certainly not about to put it into the Krynn Shadowfell.
3 plane hopping and world hopping have been a staple of dungeons and dragons since second editon. rather then try to break my grammatical mistakes over my head and get all petulant with gobot talk and cars... how about i just sum up what i ment to say and give you a chance to be cordial? rather then condescending.
from blackstaff to elminster to spalljammer to sigil and previous editions of the planes books commits to the fact that other gods and other worlds exist. thats not in dispute. what may be in dispute planes hopping in the 4th is much easier then before. so if one were to start a game in the shadowfell , have a dm bump them into a few demiplanes. either of those are not problems in the current incarnation of the 4th edition. and while it won't be the same as previous ravenloft versions, its still works. and thats what we are talking about. i agree with you it doesn't work as before but it does work.
once a demiplane starts off in one world i don't see them stuck on that particular shadowplane. its another creature altogether.
Hey, I'm being plenty cordial. I just don't care for having my intelligence insulted. And claiming that it does work is insulting, because it doesn't. Not by a longshot. Yes, planehopping is a staple of D&D. But when you have chunks of a setting divvied up between dozens of different Shadowfells on different worlds, then no, it's not going to work. Have you ever tried to run a campaign that had characters jumping from Forgotten Realms to Eberron to Dark Sun to Dragonlance to Birthright to Mystara and other worlds? Because that's what we're talking about. Would Forgotten Realms still be a coherent campaign setting if the ONLY way to get from Cormyr to Halruaa was to use planar travel? Of course not. Saying that Ravenloft would work, despite having to deal with that, is ludicrous.
And that's not even the biggest obstacle. The biggest obstacle is why would the PC's purposefully planehop from one Domain of Dread to another? Not just to any Domain of Dread, either, but to the Domain of Dread on another world? Do you see the problem, here? This set-up is in no way condusive to making Ravenloft a playable campaign, because the only way for the PC's to get from one chunk of what was Ravenloft to another is for them to use planar magic to get there. And to cap it off, no PC in their right mind would ever willingly do that.
i guess an analogy would be to grab a couple of donuts, the ones with the holes and place them overtop eachother. that 'hole' is the demi plane, so plain donut for dragonlance, chocolate covered for Forgotten realms and then sprinkles for darksun, lol. the holes in these shadowfells is the demiplane. always constant.
...no idea what you're talking about. About all I can figure is that whatever you're describing isn't how the planes are actually laid out. Nor do I know why you mention a demiplane. The problem, here, is the LACK of a demiplane. I want the demiplane of dread to remain, but if Ravenloft gets split up between God knows how many Shadowfell worlds then that means it's no longer in a demiplane.
i don't see it as a strike in any way. shadar kai in ravenloft can be a great thing. they give a dm all sorts of "dark city" like hooks and plot lines that can be use to progress a story.
To each their own, but they don't seem very fitting at all. At least not as a common race.
-green knight.
thats exactly what i ment. no matter what shadowfell you are on. that the demiplane itself is like a reality hole burned through all the shadowfells. if its not the case, then im wrong again. in the manual of the planes i got the impression that demiplanes are nothing like a map you go to. the "shadowfells" are the maps. then when you approach a demiplane, a grey misty presence you pass through and meet up in whatever setting it was based on, while not actually having anything to do with its 'mother' setting.
"Hey, I'm being plenty cordial. I just don't care for having my intelligence insulted. And claiming that it does work is insulting, because it doesn't. Not by a longshot." -green knight.
- a 'wrong' idea shouldn't insult you. if im wrong, then im wrong and your doing me a public service, which is plenty cordial. :D it also doesn't make my idea 'ludicrous', just different then what is presented. it may be that im thinking about planes in the old second edition/ third edition sense which is now obsolete. it may even be that wizards is writing things that contradict eachother and they may need some editorial clean up. what ever the case, you stated a reason, and i can only thank you for clearing it all up.
you bring up an excellent point of "why would anyone want to go to a demiplane" perhaps like in third edition if they simply didn't know anything better like barovian wood cutters braving forlorn woods for resources, they know the goblyns are there, they just have to go. again, not a perfecct answer.
ah the donut analogy. what i was referring to was different flavors of donuts as examples of different settings, stacking upon one another being all imperfect reflections of the same design. the constant in all of them is the hole, which is the analogy of the demiplane. when you have an overtop view you should be able to see striaght through to the bottom. that is how your reaching the demiplane. not crossing the other shadowfells. but going through the holes.
judging from the first point in this i think we are in disagreement in what a demiplane is. i see the demiplane as a constructed reality which is separate from the realm created, not linked to its original plane in any way. it may keep the flavor, the look and the feel, but i think your saying that the demiplanes are connected to the original planes. this part i know im right about. there is no more of a connection for a demiplane to original world.
shadar kai- agree to disagree.
thats exactly what i ment. no matter what shadowfell you are on. that the demiplane itself is like a reality hole burned through all the shadowfells. if its not the case, then im wrong again. in the manual of the planes i got the impression that demiplanes are nothing like a map you go to. the "shadowfells" are the maps. then when you approach a demiplane, a grey misty presence you pass through and meet up in whatever setting it was based on, while not actually having anything to do with its 'mother' setting.
But is that how it is, or is that how you read it because that's how you want it to work?
The thing is, we don't know. They've been very vague on how Ravenloft works with the new cosmology. And how the new planes work and function.
They stole the basics of "domains" and "darklords" from 'Loft for the shadowfell, obviously not stopping to really consider how it affects the setting (ie the Core). And they're not explaining it more because they probably don't know how to do so without further mucking-up the setting. So they're just sticking with new islands of terror reflected in the PoL shadowfell.
Not really a surprise since they've been vague and carefully portioning out information on all the changes since day 1 of 4e.
I get the impression each shadowfell, like each feywild, is a twisted reflection of "the world" with cities and regions being distorted. So the big, populated capital might be a village, or a ghost town, or a fortress of undead.
I don't get the impression that "imperfect copy" means "mosaic world".
It CAN be explained that the Core is a special case, a unique demi-plane shadowfell or combination of pieces of the shadowfell pulled from various reflections. Or the fact that the pieces each come from different worlds can be ignored.
Personally, since demiplanes still exist, I don't see any reason to move the setting just to pad the new plane.
thats exactly what i ment. no matter what shadowfell you are on. that the demiplane itself is like a reality hole burned through all the shadowfells. if its not the case, then im wrong again. in the manual of the planes i got the impression that demiplanes are nothing like a map you go to. the "shadowfells" are the maps. then when you approach a demiplane, a grey misty presence you pass through and meet up in whatever setting it was based on, while not actually having anything to do with its 'mother' setting.
Domains of Dread aren't demiplanes. You're confusing the two. Domains of Dread are areas within a worlds Shadowfell that have properties similar to those we commonly associate with Ravenloft (like difficulty with escape). If you're in Thay, and go to the Toril Shadowfell, then you'll probably be able to walk to Hazlan. You don't go to a demiplane. You're STILL in the Toril Shadowfell. I don't know where you're getting this demiplane stuff, because in 4E demiplanes have nothing to do with Domains of Dread. There's no link in any way. A Domain of Dread is still very much on the map of that worlds Shadowfell, and still very much a part of it. Here're two quotes from Manual of the Planes:
Scattered throughout the Plane of Shadow are places hidden behind thick walls of mist
These isolated pockets within the Shadowfell are called domains of dread.
No mention of demiplanes. You don't end up in a demiplane. You're still in the Shadowfell. At no point do demiplanes factor into things.
you bring up an excellent point of "why would anyone want to go to a demiplane" perhaps like in third edition if they simply didn't know anything better like barovian wood cutters braving forlorn woods for resources, they know the goblyns are there, they just have to go. again, not a perfecct answer.
Except they can't, because Forlorn will more then likely no longer physically border Barovia. That's the problem I'm trying to get across. Those woodcutters can't simply cross the border into Forlorn and cut down some trees, because Forlorn is now on a whole other planet! It exists in the Shadowfell of World A while Barovia exists in the Shadowfell of World B.
judging from the first point in this i think we are in disagreement in what a demiplane is. i see the demiplane as a constructed reality which is separate from the realm created, not linked to its original plane in any way. it may keep the flavor, the look and the feel, but i think your saying that the demiplanes are connected to the original planes. this part i know im right about. there is no more of a connection for a demiplane to original world.
Once again, Domains of Dread aren't demiplanes. They're regions within the Shadowfell. They have absolutely nothing to do with demiplanes. The likelihood that the various domains of Ravenloft will no longer exist in a demiplane is precisely my concern when it comes to the handling of Ravenloft in 4E.
if thats the case. then. wow look like i had a whole mess of misconceptions on how things work. i think your right, they just wrote themselves into a corner now. lol. poorly written might i add. the idea of multiple shadowfells and feywilds is horrible. lol.
ah, then thats the miss communication. i had always thought ravenloft was a demiplane of dread.
It was a demiplane in prior editions. The issue, now, is if that's still the case, with the likelihood looking more and more that those domains which previously existed in the Demiplane of Dread now exist as scattered Domains of Dread among the Shadowfells of various worlds. I hope it'll still be a demiplane (Especially since they kept demiplanes around. Just strikes me as odd that they'd keep demiplanes around, but jettison the Demiplane of Dread), but with the talk that's been going on lately, it sounds more and more like Ravenloft will be sliced up into bite-sized bits and divided up across numerous Shadowfells.
which is why reality had its own rules on why things don't work as they should on the material plane. and why undead were stronger on this plane then others. many of the descriptions of the shadowfell matched older ravenloft material as well, which is why i guess i assumed ideas from pervious editions for clues regarding planer rules.
Yeah, that's another strike against the idea of Ravenloft remaining a coherent setting, because they took a lot of the most wellknown properties of Ravenloft (difficulty of escape, darklords, the mists, etc) and applied them to these new concoctions called Domains of Dread which exist in the Shadowfell. For Ravenloft to exist as a setting in 4E, they'd have to come up with a pretty good reason why this particular demiplane is so similar to all those Domains of Dread. Although personally, I think with a little creativity they could come up with a very good explanation for why that is.
if thats the case. then. wow look like i had a whole mess of misconceptions on how things work. i think your right, they just wrote themselves into a corner now. lol. poorly written might i add. the idea of multiple shadowfells and feywilds is horrible. lol.
I like the idea of a multitude of Shadowfells and Feywilds, myself. But when it comes to Ravenloft as a setting, if things go as they appear they will, then yeah, that's not good at all. The shame of it is that, under the old way, you had the best of both worlds. You had a place suitable for "Weekend in Hell" style play, and you also had a place suitable for the players to base an entire campaign in. If Ravenloft ends up getting carved up like a Christmas roast, then that's not really an improvement. They'll be completely eliminating the latter while adding nothing to facilitate the former. Demiplane of Dread, Domain of Dread, it makes no difference. Weekend in Hell would still play out exactly the same way. But a campaign?
Anyway, there're two ways I could see handling things so that Ravenloft could remain a viable setting. 1) Keep it as a demiplane. That's the easiest way, with no fuss at all. The Dark Powers created the Demiplane of Dread and gave it whatever properties they wanted. The demiplane is surrounded by mists and is impossibly hard to escape from, with each domain within a prison for its resident darklord.
Or 2), as someone else on another thread suggested, have metaphysical connections between the Domains of Dread. They may not be physically connected, but stepping across the border of one could, in nearly all cases, cause you to planehop across the border into another Domain of Dread. Like the mistways, above. So while each Domain of Dread will exist in a different Shadowfell on a different world, for those trapped within them, the world will look far different to them. To them, it'll seem as if the lands they inhabit are on contiguous landmass, when in reality they're not. As long as the Domains of Dread can fit together in a map then that can work. Although that's not what I call a perfect solution. All in all, the Demiplane idea is better. As for the Domains of Dread, maybe that's the Dark Powers spreading their influence to other worlds? Their plans, as always, are inscrutable. So who knows exactly what they may be up to with the Domains of Dread?
She doesn't exist in the Forgotten Realms. Just because there's nothing saying she doesn't doesn't mean she does. May as well argue that the Go-Bots exist on Faerun by that logic.
Who says there aren't any Go-Bots in Faerun? I could swear I played CORM1-1 with one... or was that a Warforged Artificer?
Who says there aren't any Go-Bots in Faerun? I could swear I played CORM1-1 with one... or was that a Warforged Artificer?
You're wrong on both counts. It was a Warforged Druid who could wildshape into a gorilla. His people were called the Maximals, and I believe the character's name was Optimus Primal. For some inexplicable reason, he always shouted "BEAST MODE!" before wildshaping into a gorilla, and then shouted "MAXIMIZE!" before resuming his humanoid form. Never quite figured that out.
You're wrong on both counts. It was a Warforged Druid who could wildshape into a gorilla. His people were called the Maximals, and I believe the character's name was Optimus Primal. For some inexplicable reason, he always shouted "BEAST MODE!" before wildshaping into a gorilla, and then shouted "MAXIMIZE!" before resuming his humanoid form. Never quite figured that out.
No, I'm pretty sure it wasn't a druid, they aren't legal for LFR yet ;) . It must have been a Go-bot, since he fired his crossbow bolt from his arm. Everyone knows Go-bots never had weapons or cool accessories like Maximal druids do.
'bout the Wizards stealing the setting: They didn't, they bought it.
...
you should really read the thread before posting
'bout the Wizards stealing the setting: They didn't, they bought it.
They neither stole it nor bought it, as it was always theirs.
you should really read the thread before posting
But that takes all the fun out of it.
I have to use several books, several articles from magazines...
I want one, nicely compiled, book with everything inside it. Makes it far easier.
My wife has decided she wants to try her hand at DMing. She loved Ravenloft, so she wants to run a Ravenloft campaign. As a new DM, she will find it too hard to use so many sources just to get info on one place. Since she found this out, she does not want to DM any more...at least not until such a book exists.
Any info on if they will create one? Any idea if they will release another Tarrokka deck? Just try to find one from the 3rd edition...
My biggest complaint is all the work I need to do in order to compile info on the Domains of Dread.
I have to use several books, several articles from magazines...
I want one, nicely compiled, book with everything inside it. Makes it far easier.
My wife has decided she wants to try her hand at DMing. She loved Ravenloft, so she wants to run a Ravenloft campaign. As a new DM, she will find it too hard to use so many sources just to get info on one place. Since she found this out, she does not want to DM any more...at least not until such a book exists.
Any info on if they will create one? Any idea if they will release another Tarrokka deck? Just try to find one from the 3rd edition...
Just pick up a previous edition pdf and only allow race/class as appropriate. Sprinkle a little flavour into your adventures and voila Ravenloft campaign.
Just pick up a previous edition pdf and only allow race/class as appropriate. Sprinkle a little flavour into your adventures and voila Ravenloft campaign.
Not easy for a new DM to do.
I did find the 4E conversion info from another thread on here. I downloaded and printed it. It is wonderful stuff, just wish there would be adventures made.
Still not unworkable but a little unfair to her.
Maybe the posters here could do the conversions for her, I'd be happy to help. If she opens up a thread for it and just bans her players.
I own all the pre 3e Ravenloft stuff and would be happy to work through any adventure or rule/monster issues/conversions.
Using the online compendium/monster/encounter builder I've found adventure conversions quite simple. Although I have only played with it not done a serious cover to cover conversion.
I am glad they didn't touch ravenloft because for one. It is the one thing that most of the people like. It created a more Unique feeling. Various lycanthropes, different powers, different damage reduction types. For vampires, each strand is totally different and the salient abilities that they, liches, ghosts, and mummies (ancients) can get is totally different. You really can't be an expert. Even though van richten was considered off limits by order of strahd, he still lived a full life. IF you ever read his journal, he tells of his meeting with count strahd, and when strahd told him what his life was like. Van Richten already said that within the first 25 minutes in the castle, he could of counted a multitude ways that he could of died had he not been invited by the count.
Azalin and Strahd used to be compared alot to Vecna and Kas. Both of which some say are mirrored duplicates. Each lich has a curse, and Kas and strahd also loathe their prior masters. (Strahd was Azalin's apprentice, and Kas was Vecna's cohort). After that, you have azalin's greatest creation, death the ruler of necropolis which is in the middle of azalin's territory but protected from the nether shroud. Azalin has been making an artifact to do this. I use ravenloft in my campaign world.
It is an alternate material world, on the shadow plane, with ties to the water, earth, fire, and air elemental planes bound by it's dread counterpoints. I love ravenloft, and it was because of ravenloft i enjoyed looking at dicefreaks. From the LotN whose templates were based on the templates in ravenloft (Salient abilities) as well as their certified undead templates. Although they don't care about lycanthropes i have my own variants. Ravenloft is the most pure campaign setting wotc has.
Common sense would dictate that that's the case, though. The Feywild and Shadowfell are specifically described as being a reflection of "the world". In this case, "the world" is the implied campaign setting described in the main books.
By extension, when playing Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Dragonlance, or Dark Sun, "the world" is now Toril, Eberron, Krynn, or Athas. Which means that they, in turn, should have their own Feywild and Shadowfell reflections. That's the logical conclusion which most people have drawn from reading those passages.
What doesn't make sense, however, is saying that there's only a single Shadowfell plane, and yet it somehow reflects all the worlds. How's that possible? Athas and Eberron, for instance, are nothing alike. How can the Shadowfell possibly be a reflection of both Athas and Eberron? The answer is it can't, in which case it won't be a reflection of either. So either it's a reflection or it's not. The only way the Feywild and Shadowfell CAN be reflections of the various material worlds is if there's a different Feywild and Shadowfell for every world.
You are forgetting something very important: If the Feywild and the Shadowfell are reflections of the various worlds, they must also reflect what lies between those worlds just as the Astral Sea does. In other words, there is only one Feywild, and only one Shadowfell, with Fey and Shadow versions of each world floating in an endless Fey and Shadow version of space. So, deep space in the Feywild, between each Fey-version of each world, would be a deeper black, and colder, with brighter stars, more vividly-colored nebulae standing out far more than in the real world, and intense ecosystems of space-faring Fey who can survive in the depths of space. The deep space of the Shadowfell, on the other hand, would be completely black and cold and devoid of any sign of other stars, nebulae and the like, would be incredibly oppressive and gloomy and cause one to feel hopelessness, and would likely be populated by undead and other Shadowfell natives who are lost in the space between worlds.
So, yes, actually there CAN be only one Feywild and one Shadowfell possessing reflections of each individual world.
Any idea if they will release another Tarrokka deck? Just try to find one from the 3rd edition...
I've no trouble finding a deck. There's one on the shelf right over there. But I was fairly certain that boxed set was for the second edition.
As much as I love the idea behind ravenloft, I've never been able to run a game or found anyone else capable of running a long-term game. There's something about not being able to strike the right balance or maintain the level of tension that makes it pale in comparison to the gothic horror theme. Although, truth be told, I think that's more from the fact that as a longtime player, I know what kind of things go bump in the night...
My biggest complaint is all the work I need to do in order to compile info on the Domains of Dread.
I have to use several books, several articles from magazines...
I want one, nicely compiled, book with everything inside it. Makes it far easier.
There's not much 4e information that applies to actually running the game.
Since only fluff is needed any older book (a campaign setting or Gazetteer) would provide the setting information to describe the people and places.
Any info on if they will create one?
The magic eighball says... "all signs point to no".
They haven't even revealed which campaign setting comes out next year after the Eberron guide, and it will probably pop-up on Amazon before a formal announcement.
But the solid money is on Dark Sun.
Any idea if they will release another Tarrokka deck? Just try to find one from the 3rd edition...
If they do I imagine it would be reworked into a self-contained card game ala 3 Dragon Ante or Inn Fighting.
Maybe the posters here could do the conversions for her, I'd be happy to help. If she opens up a thread for it and just bans her players.
There's a 4e conversion of some rules, character info, and monsters on the Fraternity of Shadows website:
http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=5314
But this is mostly a rules update and is as unofficial as it gets.
You are forgetting something very important: If the Feywild and the Shadowfell are reflections of the various worlds, they must also reflect what lies between those worlds just as the Astral Sea does. In other words, there is only one Feywild, and only one Shadowfell, with Fey and Shadow versions of each world floating in an endless Fey and Shadow version of space.
This makes the HUGE assumption that there is space and other worlds in space in the D&D cosmology.
We do not know this and it's implied that beyond the heavens is the Far Realm of madness and aberrations.
The equivalent of outer space in D&D is the Astral Sea, which is separate from the real world.
So, yes, actually there CAN be only one Feywild and one Shadowfell possessing reflections of each individual world.
Yeah... Spelljammers have changed in 4e to just be flying ships that move between planes and spelljam through the Astral Sea, not other worlds through space.
There's no reason to believe it is possible yet.
And even if there was a void of space and all fantasy worlds existed in the same larger universe then it still wouldn't make Ravenloft possible as Krynn's reflection would be far, far away from Oerth's reflection and both would be seperate globes. There still wouldn't be the classic Ravenloft mosaic world.
I've no trouble finding a deck. There's one on the shelf right over there. But I was fairly certain that boxed set was for the second edition.
The original deck was released in the Forgotten Lore boxed set and reprinted in the revision of the Campaign Setting.
But Swords and Sorcerery put out a really nice deck for their 3e line.
This makes the HUGE assumption that there is space and other worlds in space in the D&D cosmology.
We do not know this and it's implied that beyond the heavens is the Far Realm of madness and aberrations.
The equivalent of outer space in D&D is the Astral Sea, which is separate from the real world.
The 4e Manual of the Planes suggests that the material plane is either infinite, our bound, but doesn't say which. It leaves it up to the DM to decide if the world is a sphere of dirt suspended in an endless stary void (infinite) or floating inside a giant crystal sphere (bound). Yes, it actually mentions a crystal sphere.
Yeah... Spelljammers have changed in 4e to just be flying ships that move between planes and spelljam through the Astral Sea, not other worlds through space.
There's no reason to believe it is possible yet.
Further, the 4e Manual of the Planes says that the astral dominions it describes are only one "cluster" of dominions in the infinite Astral Sea, situated near the World of the core assumed setting. It mentions that waaaaay out in the astral are other clusters of diffrent dominions situated near different material worlds. This is, as far as I can recall, a fact of the 4e cosmology, not a suggestion.
So we know the cosmology supports different worlds. Whether the material plane is bounded in individual crystal spheres, or has a deep space, is up to you. Whether that deep space connects the material worlds, is up to you. Or, if you prefer, wether there is something beyond the Crystal Spheres that might link different Crystal Spheres (the Flow). Again, up to you.
And even if there was a void of space and all fantasy worlds existed in the same larger universe then it still wouldn't make Ravenloft possible as Krynn's reflection would be far, far away from Oerth's reflection and both would be seperate globes. There still wouldn't be the classic Ravenloft mosaic world.
Ravenloft's mosaic world can be maintained by saying the mists surrounding each domain of dread connect to one another. So regardless if they're on different gloomy worlds in the Shadowfell, walking through the mists of one domain leads you to another. For the residents of the domains of dread, it would appear to be one landmass that flows into each domain.
The 4e Manual of the Planes suggests that the material plane is either infinite, our bound, but doesn't say which. It leaves it up to the DM to decide if the world is a sphere of dirt suspended in an endless stary void (infinite) or floating inside a giant crystal sphere (bound). Yes, it actually mentions a crystal sphere.
Exactly! They're keeping in purposely vague regarding inter-world travel, which makes sense because they don't want to force people to accept multiple worlds and such.
Ravenloft's mosaic world can be maintained by saying the mists surrounding each domain of dread connect to one another. So regardless if they're on different gloomy worlds in the Shadowfell, walking through the mists of one domain leads you to another. For the residents of the domains of dread, it would appear to be one landmass that flows into each domain.
But what about the lands not bordered by a mist?
What about the lands of the Core which are interconnected much like any other world and border lands pulled from other worlds?
That's the problem.
It's very easy to fanwank out an explanation. But why should we have to justify and explain away our favourite and official setting? That's supposed to be their job.
I'm all for fanwanking out a continuity problem or subtle goof that only the hardcore fans would catch. That's cool. But having to justify crossing over from Oerth to Krynn -bouncing dramatically and epically between planets- every time you stepped between Darkon and Falkovnia? Ick.
And not only have they ignore the glaring and obvious paradox, they've violated their own design tenants while doing so.
When they designed a new planar system for the World one of the big rules was to keep it the same for every later published campaign setting. The idea being that if you keep the cosmology the same you don't need to remake the wheel or explain the basic game again. They don't want to sit-down and explain how the fey step racial power works in Krynn. Or how the shadow jaunt ritual works in Athas.
BUT how does that ritual work in Ravenloft? Which rituals work and which ones do? Can the fey step racial power work in the shadowfell?
There's alot of questions and no answers.
You are forgetting something very important: If the Feywild and the Shadowfell are reflections of the various worlds, they must also reflect what lies between those worlds just as the Astral Sea does. In other words, there is only one Feywild, and only one Shadowfell, with Fey and Shadow versions of each world floating in an endless Fey and Shadow version of space.
Nope, I didn't forget that. But what YOU'RE forgetting is that just because there're multiple campaign worlds, that doesn't mean they all exist in the same universe, or that those worlds exist in recognizable universes, or infinite universes. From Manual of the Planes:
The Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos are infinite. The mortal world (and therefore the parallel planes, too) may be infinite or it may not be. It depends on if one considers the vast starry void beyond the skies of the mortal world to be part of the world or if the stars are merely lights suspended inside a vast but finite crystal sphere.
Some exist in a regular universe like ours, and it's possible to travel from Shadowfell Earth to Shadowfell Mars if you got a rocket ship. In the case of an infinite universe, it'll have an infinitely sized Shadowfell and Feywild. But others exist in crystal spheres, meaning that the universe they exist in is far from infinite, and so likewise their Shadowfell and Feywild are as finite. So yes, there is more then just one Shadowfell and one Feywild. All those universes connect to the same Astral Sea and Elemental Chaos, though.
just to throw my two cents in...
i am highly doubtful of any campaign world that was not covered in 3rd ed or 3.5 ed see much light in the 4th ed. the castle ravenloft book was very well done and i have read it cover to cover and then in bits and pieces over time, but i think that will be the extent of ravenloft by WoTC.
there just is not enough of a fan base for these out of print worlds to warrant the cost of production in these days
There's a 4e conversion of some rules, character info, and monsters on the Fraternity of Shadows website:
http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=5314
But this is mostly a rules update and is as unofficial as it gets.
I've been running using the rules update and can wholeheartedly endorse them even if they're entirely unofficial. They work really well.
first off, they throw a sub par publishing branch called arthaus at ravenloft when it should have recieved better support in one form or another.
the art was bad except with only three notable exceptions.
i used to think the writing was as good as it could get, but i retract that statement. the writing was a rehash of the original stuff.very little advancement.
all in all, it was completely just an adequate product. i make that claim onnly as my opinion from owning all 21 products from them and only being happy with the tarot deck they offered. (even that was a bit overpriced)