Question 1: Seperate Characters By Level or Same Character Levelling Up?
When building our 3rd and 4th level characters, should we build them with level-appropriate magic items & gold, or will we be receiving magic items and/or treasure bundles from the mods? Can we change items entirely in the different versions of the characters? How about stat point allocations?
Built as seperate entities, it is more advantageous to take even-numbered stats at 2nd level (i.e. 16 16 12 12 10 8), while changing that to odd-numbered stat mods to take advantage of the 4th level stat bump and get points elsewhere at 4th level. Built as contiguous entities (a 2nd level character naturally levelling up to 4th), the odd-numbered stats would be needed at lower levels to get the 4th level bonus "bumps".
Question 2:
Are non-Eberron deities allowed?
It does not specifically state that non-Eberron deities are disallowed in the character creation guide (as it does in the LFR subsection for the LFR campaign guide). Thus it would seem to be possible to worship Tempus, Sune, or Sharess. I assume this is not the case, but rules lawyers abound. Perhaps this should be clarified.
Question 3:
Adventurer's Vault 2 Available?
Adventurer's Vault 2 has a release date of August 18th. While this is two days after GenCon is over, it is virtually certain that Wizards will be selling AV2 at GenCon (they did a similar thing with books released shortly after last GenCon). By the time of GenCon, it won't be available on the character builder by the time the event occurs. It is, however, listed as an available player resource (with the unspecified date of 8/2009). As you must use the character builder (unless you are using the free one, in which case you manually adjust your 4th level character), will the AV2 be allowable to those who have purchased it?
Question 4:
When building a character above 1st level, does the "gold equal to an item of your character's level -1" include the 100GP worth of starting equipment every character receives, or not?
In other words, for the 2nd level pregens we are making, do we have 360GP to spend on stuff or 460GP, of which 100GP is mundane items only? The character builder (when autoequipping) gives you stuff for "free".
Question 5:
Questions asked at the beginning and end of rounds in last year's Championship seem to indicate that at least one of the criteria for victory involved the amount of healing surges the group had, and how many they spent. While I realize that details of the scoring system are (by necessity) kept secret, one of my players wishes to know how the surges that a beastmaster ranger's beast has will be considered.
The basis for this question is as follows. If, theoretically, surges are used as a basis for scoring, it is logical to assume that this will be a proportional scoring system. So, if group A has 10 surges between all characters, and group B has 15 surges between all characters; and both spend 5 surges, group B would clearly score higher on that criteria.
Would a beastmaster ranger's companion's surges count towards this? (If PCs have 10 surges and the beastmaster ranger's beast has 2, does the whole group have 12 or 10 surges in terms of surges spent?)
Question 6:
The amount, and timing, of free actions a PC can take in a round is at the DM's discretion. Will this be a DM's discretion thing at the Championship, or will there be a universal ruling on it?
Question 7:
This is, perhaps, worthy of a more comprehensive question/suggestion on a broader RPGA basis, but here's the specific one for the Championship.
In cases where the PCs have more than 5/6 minis on the board at the start of the encounter--Shaman spirits, Ranger animal companions, arcane class familiars, Tenser's Floating Discs, Undead Servitors, summoned or conjured spirits or devices--what directions might be given to judges regarding where these items may be placed on a map?
I have noticed that most maps allow for only 6-9 squares worth of placed minis; hopefully the spaces will be larger on the Championship maps. Of course, DM discretion applies in most cases, but I presume the Championship will be held to a universal standard due to a desire for uniformity.
Question 8:
For items/issues/effects which last for an "encounter" but can (feasibly) be around longer than that--Shaman companions, familiars in active mode, various and sundry items--will there be a general ruling on the permissibility of having these "out and active" before an encounter? The shaman spirit would appear to be the most common version thereof, where this question would arise, but I can see it coming up elsewhere.
This seems a no-brainer to me, but I've run into a lot of rules lawyers, so:
It does not specifically state that non-Eberron deities are disallowed in the character creation guide (as it does in the LFR subsection for the LFR campaign guide). Thus it would seem to be possible to worship Tempus (to refer to everyone's favorite imbalanced feat). I assume this is not the case, but rules lawyers abound. Perhaps this should be clarified.
(Again, this one seems like common sense to me, but I figured I'd ask, just to make sure):
Adventurer's Vault 2 has a release date of August 18th. While this is two days after GenCon is over, it is virtually certain that Wizards will be selling AV2 at GenCon (they did a similar thing with books released shortly after last GenCon). By the time of GenCon, it won't be available on the character builder by the time the event occurs. It is, however, listed as an available player resource (with the unspecified date of 8/2009). As you must use the character builder (unless you are using the free one, in which case you manually adjust your 4th level character), will the AV2 be allowable to those who have purchased it?
I'll try to get some answers this week - though I wouldn't hold your breath until at LEAST Origins - and that's assuming I can pin Chris down at the show.
When building a character above 1st level, does the "gold equal to an item of your character's level -1" include the 100GP worth of starting equipment every character receives, or not?
(In other words, for the 2nd level pregens we are making, do we have 360GP to spend on stuff or 460GP, of which 100GP is mundane items only?)
Question #4:
When building a character above 1st level, does the "gold equal to an item of your character's level -1" include the 100GP worth of starting equipment every character receives, or not?
(In other words, for the 2nd level pregens we are making, do we have 360GP to spend on stuff or 460GP, of which 100GP is mundane items only?)
When you create characters above 1st level they no longer have their starting gold of 100gp. Instead they have the gold of their level -1 (plus the three items capped at level +1, level, and level -1).
When you create characters above 1st level they no longer have their starting gold of 100gp. Instead they have the gold of their level -1 (plus the three items capped at level +1, level, and level -1).
When you create a non-1st level PC in the Character Builder using the auto-generate "Quick Character" piece, it typically gives them, for "free" an adventurer's kit, basic armor and one or more basic weapons. Although it sometimes misses basics, too, as the character below should have all weapons be large, instead of medium size. ;)
Example:
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Memgum, level 2
Bugbear, Ranger
Build: Two-Blade Ranger
Fighting Style: Two-Blade Fighting Style
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 20, Con 10, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 8.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 10, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 8.
AC: 18 Fort: 18 Reflex: 16 Will: 12
HP: 32 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 8
TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +6, Athletics +10, Endurance +5, Dungeoneering +6, Heal +6
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +3, Arcana +1, Bluff, Diplomacy, History +1, Insight +1, Intimidate +2, Perception +1, Religion +1, Stealth +5, Streetwise, Thievery +3
FEATS
Level 1: Lethal Hunter
Level 2: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
POWERS
Ranger at-will 1: Hit and Run
Ranger at-will 1: Twin Strike
Ranger daily 1: Jaws of the Wolf
Ranger encounter 1: Dire Wolverine Strike
Ranger utility 2: Yield Ground
ITEMS
Warsoul Longsword +1, Slick Hide Armor +1, Amulet of Protection +1, Hide Armor, Adventurer's Kit, Longsword (2), Longbow
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
---------------
Question #5: Questions asked at the beginning and end of rounds in last year's Championship seem to indicate that at least one of the criteria for victory involved the amount of healing surges the group had, and how many they spent. While I realize that details of the scoring system are (by necessity) kept secret, one of my players wishes to know how the surges that a beastmaster ranger's beast has will be considered.
The basis for this question is as follows. If, theoretically, surges are used as a basis for scoring, it is logical to assume that this will be a proportional scoring system. So, if group A has 10 surges between all characters, and group B has 15 surges between all characters; and both spend 5 surges, group B would clearly score higher on that criteria.
Would a beastmaster ranger's companion's surges count towards this? (If PCs have 10 surges and the beastmaster ranger's beast has 2, does the whole group have 12 or 10 surges in terms of surges spent?)
Thanks.
The amount, and timing, of free actions a PC can take in a round is at the DM's discretion. Will this be a DM's discretion thing at the Championship, or will there be a universal ruling on it?
While I realize that details of the scoring system are (by necessity) kept secret
Why would it be necessary to keep the details of the scoring system secret?
Why would it be necessary to keep the details of the scoring system secret?
Theoretically, I suspect that they would want people to focus on playing well in general, rather than ticking off specific items from a list and ignoring the rest.
Nevermind found and read the character creation guide.
Why would it be necessary to keep the details of the scoring system secret?
Hypothetically?
If the scoring system includes things like "Did the party find the secret macguffin in the 2nd room?" - having that on a public list makes the point null and void.
Even vague references ("Did the party find all three secret items/rooms?") spoils the scoring.
Or if an encounter has multiple options for resolution with varying points assigned to each options ("Did they kill the bad guy? +1" "Did they use diplomacy? +2" "Did they kill the minions but take the bad guy prisoner? +3") - it would also defeat the purpose of options and choices, because anyone's who's seen the scoring list will simply make the highest-point choice.
This is all speculative - I've not seen the scoring sheets for this year or for years past - but demonstrates just a couple reasons I can think of for keeping scoring secret.
Last year, because the question was asked at the end of the modules, it was presumed that surge uses played a role in scoring. Hence the question.
As to why? Mostly, I think, in order to prevent metagaming and buttkissing of the DM.
Anyone else got any? Or answers, even?
I figure that since one of the reasons they published the small update was to help those making characters for the Delve and the Open, they might answer these too!There's a SLIM chance I can get Dave to comment on some of these issues as well, since he's the GenCon organizer, so I'll go poke him as well.
By far and large, however, I agree with Shawn, these are almost certainly Chris Tulach-only issues.
3 - If you cannot make it in the character builder then you cannot use it. Pretty straight forward. Since I highly doubt AV2 is going to be loaded into it before Gencon I would not plan on using anything out of AV2.
5 - We do not talk about how things are scored in any fashion. There are questions that matter in scoring and there are questions that have nothing to do with scoring. Complete the round and don't let your teammates die. Leave the rest to us.
6 - I, as the senior DM at Gencon, will not be making a house ruling on free actions.
This is, perhaps, worthy of a more comprehensive question/suggestion on a broader RPGA basis, but here's the specific one for the Championship.
In cases where the PCs have more than 5/6 minis on the board at the start of the encounter--Shaman spirits, Ranger animal companions, arcane class familiars, Tenser's Floating Discs, Undead Servitors, summoned or conjured spirits or devices--what directions might be given to judges regarding where these items may be placed on a map?
I have noticed that most maps allow for only 6-9 squares worth of placed minis; hopefully the spaces will be larger on the Championship maps. Of course, DM discretion applies in most cases, but I presume the Championship will be held to a universal standard due to a desire for uniformity.
For items/issues/effects which last for an "encounter" but can (feasibly) be around longer than that--Shaman companions, familiars in active mode, various and sundry items--will there be a general ruling on the permissibility of having these "out and active" before an encounter? The shaman spirit would appear to be the most common version thereof, where this question would arise, but I can see it coming up elsewhere.
5 - We do not talk about how things are scored in any fashion. There are questions that matter in scoring and there are questions that have nothing to do with scoring. Complete the round and don't let your teammates die. Leave the rest to us.
A comment based purely on my own opinion:
A lack of transparency in scoring makes this "championship" a complete joke.
A comment based purely on my own opinion:
A lack of transparency in scoring makes this "championship" a complete joke.
Academic Discussion (since I don't have knowledge of what goes into scoring the championship):
Given how open-ended D&D is by its very nature, and given that to disclose the scoring would likely serve to cause people to "play by the scoresheet" instead of playing/behaving "naturally" how do you believe that open-scoring would improve the championship instead of hindering it?
My fear (again, as neither a judge, nor a competitor, and merely from an academic/observational standpoint) would be that the release of the scoring system would spoil the mod (IE: Did the party find ? Did the party deal with the in the ?) or serve people to play less to their own tactical strengths and more toward "winning" the scoresheet (IE: "Don't worry about the minions, they're not worth any points, but we HAVE to at least bloody before time runs out!")
MY concern is the opposite of yours in that releasing the scoring mechanics would lead to mechanical play. Keeping the information private, while it does then require the players trusting that the system is kept fair and honest, means groups play based on what's thrown at them, and to their party's strength, rather than playing to a pre-fabricated checklist.
How would you have suggest making scoring public available without spoiling play?
Academic Discussion (since I don't have knowledge of what goes into scoring the championship):
Given how open-ended D&D is by its very nature, and given that to disclose the scoring would likely serve to cause people to "play by the scoresheet" instead of playing/behaving "naturally" how do you believe that open-scoring would improve the championship instead of hindering it?
My fear (again, as neither a judge, nor a competitor, and merely from an academic/observational standpoint) would be that the release of the scoring system would spoil the mod (IE: Did the party find ? Did the party deal with the in the ?) or serve people to play less to their own tactical strengths and more toward "winning" the scoresheet (IE: "Don't worry about the minions, they're not worth any points, but we HAVE to at least bloody before time runs out!")
MY concern is the opposite of yours in that releasing the scoring mechanics would lead to mechanical play. Keeping the information private, while it does then require the players trusting that the system is kept fair and honest, means groups play based on what's thrown at them, and to their party's strength, rather than playing to a pre-fabricated checklist.
How would you have suggest making scoring public available without spoiling play?
Seeing as to how it is a competition, mechanical play is the only way in which it can be scored.
What you're saying is undoubtedly true, but isn't that the whole point? Take a look at any other competition where judges score ones' performance - boxing, gymnastics, dance, ultimate fighting, etc. Competitors know what earns them points, and what costs them points, and plan their strategies around that.
The championship is all about tactical play. How can a competitors know how to plan their tactics if they don't know how they're being scored? Last year, my team was the only team to have bloodied the final encounter solo creature in the finals, despite the fact that our DM (the author) took a 20 minute break during the round, forced us to listen to all of the boxed text, and even decided to have a rule discussion with other judges for 10 minutes when it had no impact on the combat at hand. No one fell unconscious at any point in any combat, and yet we didn't place in the top 3. To this day, we have no idea why, or how the scores were determined. This leads to suspicion and skepticism.
You mention "playing by the scoresheet" like it's a bad thing - it isn't. In any competition, competitors should know how they're being scored and plan their tactics and strategy accordingly. Releasing information on how the championship is scored would in no way "spoil" the module(s) if the module(s) are designed with this information in mind.
This is only one of the problems with the championship. The massive disparity between judging speed and the fact that last year, some tables had two judges (one to track initiative and keep the game flowing) and others had one is a completely different discussion.
Thanks!
Last year, my team was the only team to have bloodied the final encounter solo creature in the finals,
Well due to that not being true I guess that kinda ruins your assumptions about the system. Teams beat the final encounter last year. That is teams plural.
Well due to that not being true I guess that kinda ruins your assumptions about the system. Teams beat the final encounter last year. That is teams plural.
Let's try to honor the OP's request and stay focused on his questions. Thanks.
Quoting the CCG...
Create a 2nd level, 3rd level, and 4th level version
of your character. Your character uses the standard
22 point-buy method. The entry round is for 2nd
level characters. If you advance to the semifinal
round, you will bring a 3rd level version of your
character. For those select teams that make it to the
final round, you’ll bring a 4th level version of your
character.
While it doesn't explicitly say it, I think the implication of bringing a 3rd level version of the same character is that you are leveling that character up. Not creating a new character from whole cloth. Same goes for the 4th level char. Which means that you will not likely be able to take advantage of redoing your stats and getting a boost at 4th level.
I freely admit that I could be wrong, and I await Chris Tulach's clarification on this.
Question 2: Are non-Eberron deities allowed?
That's a tougher one. While there is nothing in the CCG that forbids the use of non-Eberron deities... And I honestly doubt that scrutiny of the characters will be so high that people won't get away with it... Is it really that difficult to find an equivalent deity from the Eberron setting? Just sayin'.
Skipping Q3 as that has already been answered by Dave.
Question 4: When building a character above 1st level, does the "gold equal to an item of your character's level -1" include the 100GP worth of starting equipment every character receives, or not?
According to DMG pg 143, when creating characters higher than 1st level, you do not have to worry about actually paying for mundane items from the PHB. This includes Adventuring Gear, Weapons & Equipment. However, no such exception is made for mundane items in the PHB2 or the Adventurer's Vault. This means that if you want to have a musical instrument or an alchemical item, you will have to pay for it with your money. Honestly, I would love some clarification on this point. I can understand having to pay for an Alchemical Item. However, I'm not sure I get the need to pay for truly mundane items from other sources beyond the PHB.
As for the exact amount you have available to you. It is exactly as it is described... 360gp. You do NOT also get the extra 100gp. I think the free mundane items more than makes up for this.
Skipping the rest as they are more for the folks running the event.
Good luck to everyone.
--sam
I noticed that the character creation rules state that the level-1 gold is for purchasing the rest of your equipment, potions, rituals, etc. This is different from the DMG stating that the non-magical misc. equipment can be obtained free as it is less important than the magical items. I think that to be fair, all equipment should be purchased for the D&D open, even non magical items. If all non-magical items from the PH is free, then I can create a Magic User with Brew Potion ritual, get 1,000 gp of alchemical reagents for free (since they can be purchased under adventuring gear in the character builder), and make 20 potions of healing when the game begins to distribute among the party. This seems a bit of a loophole in the rules if free non-magical items are allowed.
Aaron
--sam
The championship is all about tactical play. How can a competitors know how to plan their tactics if they don't know how they're being scored? Last year, my team was the only team to have bloodied the final encounter solo creature in the finals, despite the fact that our DM (the author) took a 20 minute break during the round, forced us to listen to all of the boxed text, and even decided to have a rule discussion with other judges for 10 minutes when it had no impact on the combat at hand. No one fell unconscious at any point in any combat, and yet we didn't place in the top 3. To this day, we have no idea why, or how the scores were determined. This leads to suspicion and skepticism.
last year my group got bounced and didn't make it to the second round, and it may have been due to a silly decision by me, that if I had known they would use healing suges as scoring I wouldn't have done
I was playing the tank and after the 2nd to last encounter I had spent a healing surge to heal up, leaving my down one hp with like 6 surges left, way more than I knew I was gonna possibly need for one encounter. I was like meh, might as well use a healing surge to get 1 HP. we had finished the mod with no one dying and didn't make it through to the 2nd round, I can only assume it was due to having fewer healing surges left at the end of the mod than another group, perhaps it was only 1 healing surge less.
How would you have suggest making scoring public available without spoiling play?
Easy. Publish the details of the scoring system and everybody's scores after the event is over. That provides transparency, which is essential to an event's integrity, without spoiling play.
Academic Discussion (since I don't have knowledge of what goes into scoring the championship):
Given how open-ended D&D is by its very nature, and given that to disclose the scoring would likely serve to cause people to "play by the scoresheet" instead of playing/behaving "naturally" how do you believe that open-scoring would improve the championship instead of hindering it?
My fear (again, as neither a judge, nor a competitor, and merely from an academic/observational standpoint) would be that the release of the
I don't think fears or FUDS are decent reasons for not being transparent. We can FUD till our heads explode, but it doesn't make the game/competition any better.
As for open ended. Really? So players are allowed to go (try to find and) kill Tiamat and have that count to their score? I didn't think so. The 4E rule set may allow for a lot of options, but it still is and can be judged, within a relatively constrained framework. And it must be, unless I miss my guess. But folks would like to know what the framework is.
scoring system would spoil the mod (IE: Did the party find ? Did the party deal with the in the ?) or serve people to play less to their own tactical strengths and more toward "winning" the scoresheet (IE: "Don't worry about the minions, they're not worth any points, but we HAVE to at least bloody before time runs out!")
I don't see where defining how a party is judged to have defeated or completed an encounter requires that the encounter set up be revealed ahead of time. I haven't done the championship in two years, but I seem to recall that judges turn in a scoring sheet. Why is it hard for that to be published after the fact? Post championship I would love to see what "events" or encounters I failed to find or defeat. Who would have thought that there was a secret door I missed. Hmmmm.
Further, if you require that there be an objective standard for how to judge events or to score players, then these can be applied and the application can be likewise judged. I know we like to believe that judges are perfect but world competitions of many sorts have rules for their players and competitors as well as for their judges. Having these rules makes it easier to answer complaints with something better than "we said so."
Again, you don't have to release the list of monsters to be defeated ahead of time. But you -can- release them after the competition. Or after each "heat".
In fact, without the posting of such results, it makes it impossible to catch or correct mistakes. I've competed in several types of sports/competitions and in each, if you are doing a bracket or heat based elimination, mistakes DO happen and the only way to correct them is to post results openly and let folks make complaints. Otherwise you do serious harm to the integrity of the competition if folks believe they've been "abused" but can't determine for themselves their ranking or how to correct those results.
MY concern is the opposite of yours in that releasing the scoring mechanics would lead to mechanical play. Keeping the information private, while it does then require the players trusting that the system is kept fair and honest, means groups play based on what's thrown at them, and to their party's strength, rather than playing to a pre-fabricated checklist.
First off. "Trust but verify." Without that, I don't think you can really have trust. You win or lose because someone says so? Try that in March Madness some time. Heck try that at a Magic tournament and see how well that works out for you.
See, I don't get this at all. D&D is a different game (tm) some say. But it is still a game. One with rules and if those rules are to mean anything, then scoring must be transparent.
You don't play Basketball, Chess, get into a wrestling ring (I'm talking greco-roman here), get into a pool for a swimming race, or step onto a track field ... without knowing the rules, what constitutes a "winning" score, and what will get you disqualified. None of those.
Gaming the rules happens in all of the above to one degree or another, and if you think it doesn't, go read up on the new body length swim suits some time for an example of gaming the "rules" of a sport. What makes D&D different/special/unique such that the common rules of transparency, good sportsmanship and I dare say accountability get thrown out?
I think that the "fear" that D&D is special or too complicated has drawn the organizers of the championship too far from common sense and reasonable standards for competitive play.
How would you have suggest making scoring public available without spoiling play?
Judges get a scoring sheet. There are also rules for how the scoring must be done, that can be applied after the fact by players and judges alike to determine if the correct score was arrived at. This might include but is not limited to things like 1) how many or which monsters were killed, defeated, knocked to bloodied etc 2) how many encounters were finished or bypassed 3) how many PCs finished the mod/heat alive? unconscious? dead? 4) how many special scoring goals (listed, but not revealed until perhaps after the heat (or after the championship) were accomplished.
The rules for scoring and judging are public. The scoring sheet and the event/module are not.
You could also require that players keep a log (even an officially printed one) that tracks generic information similar to the above, to be used to compare to official results. These logs could be signed and turned in -with- the judges scoring sheets and be used in the event that judges and players disagree with results that get reported. Purely as an example, players log that they fight a Dracolich at Encounter 4, but the judge states they never reach Encounter 4. It is unlikely that players will know what the BBEG at the end of a fight is unless they face him. And if a judge scores them as never reaching the BBEG, that can be a means of correcting an obvious error. Or at least raising the discussion about it.
All are just suggestions, but hopefully they'll spur some discussion.
I am still holding out the forlorn hope that answers shall be forthcoming...
With qall due respect, could we please have this conversation on a new thread? Any of you can make one.
I am still holding out the forlorn hope that answers shall be forthcoming...
You're right. I'll apologize for my bit. :embarrass
It would be nice to get answers to the rest of the questions posed, if any one is reading.