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So how has LFR drawn for Conventions?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
_Mithreinmaethor_
Jun 02, 2009 6:10:07 I was wondering how organizers of the smaller conventions out there would like to share how LFR has drawn?

We are going to be offering LFR at an Anime convention this Summer and were kind of interested in seeing what others experiences with people coming to play are. We used to run a convention for LG that would draw between 30 to 40 people. Just not sure what to expect at all with LFR since its so OPEN for play.
#2
kenobi65
Jun 02, 2009 9:15:41 I'm not an organizer, but I GM for a group who does several regional RPGA conventions every year.

Con attendance isn't quite as strong as it was in the LG days. Specifically, while I think we still see most of the locals who would come in the past, we don't see as many people coming in from out-of-state (which would have been out-of-region in LG).

I imagine that a lot of that is driven by the lack of need to travel to play modules, but part may also be the weak economy making a weekend out-of-town less feasible for some players. And, I do know that there are some folks who were LG stalwarts at our cons, who haven't picked up 4E/LFR, as well.

When you were drawing 30-40, how many of those were from your area? To what extent do you think those people have moved to LFR?
#3
amysrevenge
Jun 02, 2009 14:31:29 I know that locally we are seeing many more successful small-scale events, but reduced attendance at larger events.

For instance, we will probably no longer be doing a hotel-rental convention for just a RPGA con in Calgary (something that was done every year that LG was alive, plus this past year running LFR). As was widely predicted, attendance for the LFR-exclusive convention was waaaaaay down from previous LG-exclusive conventions. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'd guess that attendance dropped by 30-50% from the LG peak.

However, we have been running tables here and there as add-ons at other events (at a local comic-book convention, at a local general gaming convention that has been revived from hiatus, and at retail stores) that are very successful and popular with new/casual players.

Specific to some of the issues raised in the OP and first reply, we have found while we have lost a few members who didn't make the 3.x -> 4E transition, and others who didn't make the LG -> LFR transition, we have more than recovered for their loss via both lapsed former members and entirely new members (we have at least one member who never played an RPG before 4E but has joined the DM rotation now).

However, the current membership, who are more than happy to fork out 5 bucks to play 2 slots at a regularly scheduled gameday, are far less happy (or likely) to fork out $30-$40 (and a hotel room) to play 5-6 slots at a convention.
#4
_Mithreinmaethor_
Jun 03, 2009 6:09:37
I'm not an organizer, but I GM for a group who does several regional RPGA conventions every year.

Con attendance isn't quite as strong as it was in the LG days. Specifically, while I think we still see most of the locals who would come in the past, we don't see as many people coming in from out-of-state (which would have been out-of-region in LG).

I imagine that a lot of that is driven by the lack of need to travel to play modules, but part may also be the weak economy making a weekend out-of-town less feasible for some players. And, I do know that there are some folks who were LG stalwarts at our cons, who haven't picked up 4E/LFR, as well.

When you were drawing 30-40, how many of those were from your area? To what extent do you think those people have moved to LFR?

If you dont include the 5 local GM's we had about 5 or 6 local people. Most of the people came from Oklahoma, Texas and sometimes Colorado.

I just have a feeling that we are not going to see a good turnout because of the way LFR is setup.

Its like they spent 8 years tweaking the Living Campaign and then just threw it all out the window when the killed off LG. Our group here was pretty gung-ho coming out of the gate for LFR, but now we are loosing interest.
#5
WotC_Tulach
Jun 03, 2009 16:24:45 Specifically, we are more concerned with 2 things, in this level of priority:

1. Get more folks playing LFR. So far, it's worked. Play numbers are way up from the LG days, whether it's at home or in public.

2. Instead of focusing on conventions, focus on play anywhere in the public. What a lot of folks are seeing is increased attendance at stores, schools, libraries, etc. for gameday-style events and lower attendance for campaign-specific conventions. That's an evolution of the campaign toward a more grass-roots play pattern, and it results in an overall more accessible play model. This is healthier for the campaign as a whole.

Conventions that are multi-purpose gaming shows have generally seen the opposite trend - they've been picking up players, as the campaign is a bit more casual player friendly than past Living campaigns have been.

It should be noted that conventions are still the only ones that can receive support packages directly from Wizards; these packs are $20 each and come with approximately $60 worth of product, plus Rewards cards. That's a nice little draw for showing up at a con. If you organize a con and want Wizards convention support, visit www.wizards.com/events for more information.
#6
amysrevenge
Jun 03, 2009 18:42:50
It should be noted that conventions are still the only ones that can receive support packages directly from Wizards; these packs are $20 each and come with approximately $60 worth of product, plus Rewards cards. That's a nice little draw for showing up at a con. If you organize a con and want Wizards convention support, visit www.wizards.com/events for more information.

Also, if you're in Canada, make sure that the packages get shipped out WAAAAY in advance - we received the packages for our last convention well over a month after it happened. :P

*Note that the blame falls mostly on Canadian customs, not necessarily WotC. Just make sure you order your stuff (and ask for it to be sent) in plenty of time.
#7
CdrcJsn
Jun 03, 2009 18:50:00
I was wondering how organizers of the smaller conventions out there would like to share how LFR has drawn?

We are going to be offering LFR at an Anime convention this Summer and were kind of interested in seeing what others experiences with people coming to play are. We used to run a convention for LG that would draw between 30 to 40 people. Just not sure what to expect at all with LFR since its so OPEN for play.

Your best bet is to check with your local RPGA organizers. The situation might be different in your location than others.

In the SF Bay Area, there are as many, if not more players of LFR than LG.

In the Sacramento area, the people that used to organize events there felt somewhat disenfranchised by the closing of LG so LFR isn't as popular and most have moved on to other games. Some are coming around and are starting to play LFR, but it's still not as popular as LG once was.

Overall though, based on just the local conventions and game stores I've attended, LFR is doing as well as LG did at its height of popularity in terms of games played. The RPGA-only cons have disappeared, replaced by smaller game days at game stores. But the RPGA section in already existing conventions are as popular (if not more so) than LG.

Regarding my personal playtime, I've played more LFR within the past year than I did LG the one year I traveled to 7 different regions.
#8
_Mithreinmaethor_
Jun 03, 2009 19:37:23
Your best bet is to check with your local RPGA organizers. The situation might be different in your location than others.

In the SF Bay Area, there are as many, if not more players of LFR than LG.

In the Sacramento area, the people that used to organize events there felt somewhat disenfranchised by the closing of LG so LFR isn't as popular and most have moved on to other games. Some are coming around and are starting to play LFR, but it's still not as popular as LG once was.

Overall though, based on just the local conventions and game stores I've attended, LFR is doing as well as LG did at its height of popularity in terms of games played. The RPGA-only cons have disappeared, replaced by smaller game days at game stores. But the RPGA section in already existing conventions are as popular (if not more so) than LG.

Regarding my personal playtime, I've played more LFR within the past year than I did LG the one year I traveled to 7 different regions.

I am the local RPGA organizer lol.

And by losing interest I mean that it is all just like a different dungeon delve every module. There is no continuity in a region etc that people can invest themselves into.

I dont doubt Tulachs numbers but some of it has to be attributed to the Replay of modules. I wonder if their data set takes this into account. Because the same 6 people playing the same module say 4 times with 4 different characters should still be seen as 6 people not 24 people.
#9
WotC_Tulach
Jun 03, 2009 19:46:23 I am counting unique active players, not occurrences of play. We have more active players now than we have ever had in the RPGA's history.
#10
amysrevenge
Jun 04, 2009 0:49:34
Because the same 6 people playing the same module say 4 times with 4 different characters should still be seen as 6 people not 24 people.

Depending on what you are counting, I might disagree.

I'd count that as 6 players, but 4 tables. And 24 member-games (or whatever renamed version of man-hours you prefer), which I would tend to rank up there with the other two as very important to track.
#11
bgibbons
Jun 04, 2009 0:59:16
That's an evolution of the campaign toward a more grass-roots play pattern, and it results in an overall more accessible play model. This is healthier for the campaign as a whole.

One statistic I would be curious to see is not just the total play numbers, but their level band distribution, particularly as we head toward the latter part of 2009.

One of the benefits of convention play is that there's always enough new players for a low-level table. With the rapid advancement of 4e and narrow level bands of LFR, that regular 2- or 3-table game night at your LGS is great, but it will gradually get to the point where it's just supporting existing players and offering a low-level module is a rarity.

As time goes on, the difficulty in gaining new players through the grass-roots play you're encouraging will only get worse, not better.

The figure I'd hope the campaign staff are keeping their eyes on isn't just total play numbers, but play of L1-4 adventures, since those are key to sustaining the campaign.
#12
WolfStar76
Jun 04, 2009 7:10:04
One statistic I would be curious to see is not just the total play numbers, but their level band distribution, particularly as we head toward the latter part of 2009.

While I share your curiosity, as a rule WotC doesn't release many numbers/statistics.

Though, if Chris wants to prove me wrong, I'll gladly accept my beating. ;)
#13
Fundin_Strongarm
Jun 04, 2009 8:49:08
One statistic I would be curious to see is not just the total play numbers, but their level band distribution, particularly as we head toward the latter part of 2009.

One of the benefits of convention play is that there's always enough new players for a low-level table. With the rapid advancement of 4e and narrow level bands of LFR, that regular 2- or 3-table game night at your LGS is great, but it will gradually get to the point where it's just supporting existing players and offering a low-level module is a rarity.

As time goes on, the difficulty in gaining new players through the grass-roots play you're encouraging will only get worse, not better.

The figure I'd hope the campaign staff are keeping their eyes on isn't just total play numbers, but play of L1-4 adventures, since those are key to sustaining the campaign.

I run 2 bi-weekly games (twice on Saturdays) where this started to become an issue for new players. I now run one or two bi-weekly games (on the opposite Saturdays) that will be strictly for level 1-4 characters. All at the FLGS.
#14
amysrevenge
Jun 04, 2009 13:03:51
With the rapid advancement of 4e and narrow level bands of LFR, that regular 2- or 3-table game night at your LGS is great, but it will gradually get to the point where it's just supporting existing players and offering a low-level module is a rarity.

In my club we are committed to always offering one L1-4 adventure in every slot we schedule, whether we are doing a regular gameday or supporting a local convention.

We all like playing our higher level characters, but we also all like making and playing new characters (replay is a non-issue in our club - we all do it without a single qualm). Pretty much everyone always has at least one PC in the 1-4 band to pop in to a low level adventure if a high-level table doesn't work out, and unlike in LG (when we would sometimes have violent arguments about who got to play in the not unfrequent case where 7 people wanted to play the high level module), people are generally content to wait until "next time" if there are a lack of seats at the high level table. As an aside, I notice that we also lack LG's "race to retirement" mentality. In LG I, and many people in the club, had the goal of advancing a main PC as quickly as possible. In LFR I just don't feel that rush. I have eight PCs that I play, at levels 9,9,8,5,4,3,3,1 (and two that I've retired at 5,3) , and I'm not rushing any of them to get to 11 as fast as I can.

The hole that I am noticing right now is in the L4-7 band. We offer many adventures at the maximum level (L7-10 right now) and the minimum level (L1-4), but few in the middle of the range. We have noticed this as a club and are working on changing this pattern, but I can only imagine that it will get worse rather than better as time moves forward. I can imagine the situation this time next year, where the "easy" way to schedule will be to offer mainly adventures in the L1-4 band and the L17-20 band, but very few adventures in between. It will be a challenging task to continue to support the newbies and the old-timers both, while providing the means for new PCs to make their way to the upper level bands.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 _Mithreinmaethor_ Jun 02, 2009 6:10:07	I was wondering how organizers of the smaller conventions out there would like to share how LFR has drawn? We are going to be offering LFR at an Anime convention this Summer and were kind of interested in seeing what others experiences with people coming to play are. We used to run a convention for LG that would draw between 30 to 40 people. Just not sure what to expect at all with LFR since its so OPEN for play.
#2 kenobi65 Jun 02, 2009 9:15:41	I'm not an organizer, but I GM for a group who does several regional RPGA conventions every year. Con attendance isn't quite as strong as it was in the LG days. Specifically, while I think we still see most of the locals who would come in the past, we don't see as many people coming in from out-of-state (which would have been out-of-region in LG). I imagine that a lot of that is driven by the lack of need to travel to play modules, but part may also be the weak economy making a weekend out-of-town less feasible for some players. And, I do know that there are some folks who were LG stalwarts at our cons, who haven't picked up 4E/LFR, as well. When you were drawing 30-40, how many of those were from your area? To what extent do you think those people have moved to LFR?
#3 amysrevenge Jun 02, 2009 14:31:29	I know that locally we are seeing many more successful small-scale events, but reduced attendance at larger events. For instance, we will probably no longer be doing a hotel-rental convention for just a RPGA con in Calgary (something that was done every year that LG was alive, plus this past year running LFR). As was widely predicted, attendance for the LFR-exclusive convention was waaaaaay down from previous LG-exclusive conventions. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'd guess that attendance dropped by 30-50% from the LG peak. However, we have been running tables here and there as add-ons at other events (at a local comic-book convention, at a local general gaming convention that has been revived from hiatus, and at retail stores) that are very successful and popular with new/casual players. Specific to some of the issues raised in the OP and first reply, we have found while we have lost a few members who didn't make the 3.x -> 4E transition, and others who didn't make the LG -> LFR transition, we have more than recovered for their loss via both lapsed former members and entirely new members (we have at least one member who never played an RPG before 4E but has joined the DM rotation now). However, the current membership, who are more than happy to fork out 5 bucks to play 2 slots at a regularly scheduled gameday, are far less happy (or likely) to fork out $30-$40 (and a hotel room) to play 5-6 slots at a convention.
#4 _Mithreinmaethor_ Jun 03, 2009 6:09:37	I'm not an organizer, but I GM for a group who does several regional RPGA conventions every year. Con attendance isn't quite as strong as it was in the LG days. Specifically, while I think we still see most of the locals who would come in the past, we don't see as many people coming in from out-of-state (which would have been out-of-region in LG). I imagine that a lot of that is driven by the lack of need to travel to play modules, but part may also be the weak economy making a weekend out-of-town less feasible for some players. And, I do know that there are some folks who were LG stalwarts at our cons, who haven't picked up 4E/LFR, as well. When you were drawing 30-40, how many of those were from your area? To what extent do you think those people have moved to LFR? If you dont include the 5 local GM's we had about 5 or 6 local people. Most of the people came from Oklahoma, Texas and sometimes Colorado. I just have a feeling that we are not going to see a good turnout because of the way LFR is setup. Its like they spent 8 years tweaking the Living Campaign and then just threw it all out the window when the killed off LG. Our group here was pretty gung-ho coming out of the gate for LFR, but now we are loosing interest.
#5 WotC_Tulach Jun 03, 2009 16:24:45	Specifically, we are more concerned with 2 things, in this level of priority: 1. Get more folks playing LFR. So far, it's worked. Play numbers are way up from the LG days, whether it's at home or in public. 2. Instead of focusing on conventions, focus on play anywhere in the public. What a lot of folks are seeing is increased attendance at stores, schools, libraries, etc. for gameday-style events and lower attendance for campaign-specific conventions. That's an evolution of the campaign toward a more grass-roots play pattern, and it results in an overall more accessible play model. This is healthier for the campaign as a whole. Conventions that are multi-purpose gaming shows have generally seen the opposite trend - they've been picking up players, as the campaign is a bit more casual player friendly than past Living campaigns have been. It should be noted that conventions are still the only ones that can receive support packages directly from Wizards; these packs are $20 each and come with approximately $60 worth of product, plus Rewards cards. That's a nice little draw for showing up at a con. If you organize a con and want Wizards convention support, visit www.wizards.com/events for more information.
#6 amysrevenge Jun 03, 2009 18:42:50	It should be noted that conventions are still the only ones that can receive support packages directly from Wizards; these packs are $20 each and come with approximately $60 worth of product, plus Rewards cards. That's a nice little draw for showing up at a con. If you organize a con and want Wizards convention support, visit www.wizards.com/events for more information. Also, if you're in Canada, make sure that the packages get shipped out WAAAAY in advance - we received the packages for our last convention well over a month after it happened. :P *Note that the blame falls mostly on Canadian customs, not necessarily WotC. Just make sure you order your stuff (and ask for it to be sent) in plenty of time.
#7 CdrcJsn Jun 03, 2009 18:50:00	I was wondering how organizers of the smaller conventions out there would like to share how LFR has drawn? We are going to be offering LFR at an Anime convention this Summer and were kind of interested in seeing what others experiences with people coming to play are. We used to run a convention for LG that would draw between 30 to 40 people. Just not sure what to expect at all with LFR since its so OPEN for play. Your best bet is to check with your local RPGA organizers. The situation might be different in your location than others. In the SF Bay Area, there are as many, if not more players of LFR than LG. In the Sacramento area, the people that used to organize events there felt somewhat disenfranchised by the closing of LG so LFR isn't as popular and most have moved on to other games. Some are coming around and are starting to play LFR, but it's still not as popular as LG once was. Overall though, based on just the local conventions and game stores I've attended, LFR is doing as well as LG did at its height of popularity in terms of games played. The RPGA-only cons have disappeared, replaced by smaller game days at game stores. But the RPGA section in already existing conventions are as popular (if not more so) than LG. Regarding my personal playtime, I've played more LFR within the past year than I did LG the one year I traveled to 7 different regions.
#8 _Mithreinmaethor_ Jun 03, 2009 19:37:23	Your best bet is to check with your local RPGA organizers. The situation might be different in your location than others. In the SF Bay Area, there are as many, if not more players of LFR than LG. In the Sacramento area, the people that used to organize events there felt somewhat disenfranchised by the closing of LG so LFR isn't as popular and most have moved on to other games. Some are coming around and are starting to play LFR, but it's still not as popular as LG once was. Overall though, based on just the local conventions and game stores I've attended, LFR is doing as well as LG did at its height of popularity in terms of games played. The RPGA-only cons have disappeared, replaced by smaller game days at game stores. But the RPGA section in already existing conventions are as popular (if not more so) than LG. Regarding my personal playtime, I've played more LFR within the past year than I did LG the one year I traveled to 7 different regions. I am the local RPGA organizer lol. And by losing interest I mean that it is all just like a different dungeon delve every module. There is no continuity in a region etc that people can invest themselves into. I dont doubt Tulachs numbers but some of it has to be attributed to the Replay of modules. I wonder if their data set takes this into account. Because the same 6 people playing the same module say 4 times with 4 different characters should still be seen as 6 people not 24 people.
#9 WotC_Tulach Jun 03, 2009 19:46:23	I am counting unique active players, not occurrences of play. We have more active players now than we have ever had in the RPGA's history.
#10 amysrevenge Jun 04, 2009 0:49:34	Because the same 6 people playing the same module say 4 times with 4 different characters should still be seen as 6 people not 24 people. Depending on what you are counting, I might disagree. I'd count that as 6 players, but 4 tables. And 24 member-games (or whatever renamed version of man-hours you prefer), which I would tend to rank up there with the other two as very important to track.
#11 bgibbons Jun 04, 2009 0:59:16	That's an evolution of the campaign toward a more grass-roots play pattern, and it results in an overall more accessible play model. This is healthier for the campaign as a whole. One statistic I would be curious to see is not just the total play numbers, but their level band distribution, particularly as we head toward the latter part of 2009. One of the benefits of convention play is that there's always enough new players for a low-level table. With the rapid advancement of 4e and narrow level bands of LFR, that regular 2- or 3-table game night at your LGS is great, but it will gradually get to the point where it's just supporting existing players and offering a low-level module is a rarity. As time goes on, the difficulty in gaining new players through the grass-roots play you're encouraging will only get worse, not better. The figure I'd hope the campaign staff are keeping their eyes on isn't just total play numbers, but play of L1-4 adventures, since those are key to sustaining the campaign.
#12 WolfStar76 Jun 04, 2009 7:10:04	One statistic I would be curious to see is not just the total play numbers, but their level band distribution, particularly as we head toward the latter part of 2009. While I share your curiosity, as a rule WotC doesn't release many numbers/statistics. Though, if Chris wants to prove me wrong, I'll gladly accept my beating. ;)
#13 Fundin_Strongarm Jun 04, 2009 8:49:08	One statistic I would be curious to see is not just the total play numbers, but their level band distribution, particularly as we head toward the latter part of 2009. One of the benefits of convention play is that there's always enough new players for a low-level table. With the rapid advancement of 4e and narrow level bands of LFR, that regular 2- or 3-table game night at your LGS is great, but it will gradually get to the point where it's just supporting existing players and offering a low-level module is a rarity. As time goes on, the difficulty in gaining new players through the grass-roots play you're encouraging will only get worse, not better. The figure I'd hope the campaign staff are keeping their eyes on isn't just total play numbers, but play of L1-4 adventures, since those are key to sustaining the campaign. I run 2 bi-weekly games (twice on Saturdays) where this started to become an issue for new players. I now run one or two bi-weekly games (on the opposite Saturdays) that will be strictly for level 1-4 characters. All at the FLGS.
#14 amysrevenge Jun 04, 2009 13:03:51	With the rapid advancement of 4e and narrow level bands of LFR, that regular 2- or 3-table game night at your LGS is great, but it will gradually get to the point where it's just supporting existing players and offering a low-level module is a rarity. In my club we are committed to always offering one L1-4 adventure in every slot we schedule, whether we are doing a regular gameday or supporting a local convention. We all like playing our higher level characters, but we also all like making and playing new characters (replay is a non-issue in our club - we all do it without a single qualm). Pretty much everyone always has at least one PC in the 1-4 band to pop in to a low level adventure if a high-level table doesn't work out, and unlike in LG (when we would sometimes have violent arguments about who got to play in the not unfrequent case where 7 people wanted to play the high level module), people are generally content to wait until "next time" if there are a lack of seats at the high level table. As an aside, I notice that we also lack LG's "race to retirement" mentality. In LG I, and many people in the club, had the goal of advancing a main PC as quickly as possible. In LFR I just don't feel that rush. I have eight PCs that I play, at levels 9,9,8,5,4,3,3,1 (and two that I've retired at 5,3) , and I'm not rushing any of them to get to 11 as fast as I can. The hole that I am noticing right now is in the L4-7 band. We offer many adventures at the maximum level (L7-10 right now) and the minimum level (L1-4), but few in the middle of the range. We have noticed this as a club and are working on changing this pattern, but I can only imagine that it will get worse rather than better as time moves forward. I can imagine the situation this time next year, where the "easy" way to schedule will be to offer mainly adventures in the L1-4 band and the L17-20 band, but very few adventures in between. It will be a challenging task to continue to support the newbies and the old-timers both, while providing the means for new PCs to make their way to the upper level bands.