DMG suggests it not be used unless there is a really good reason as monsters and enemies will go after active threats before finishing off the unconscious guy. There are also already 2 or 3 threads about this exact topic that can be found on these forums if you just read the titles of some threads.
Like this one still on the first page of the LFR forum
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
Which was also predated by another post about the same topic some months before it cropped up.
Ok, in all seriousness, this has been debated a bit. Aiming for fun is always a good policy.
If monsters had the same abilities with leaders in their midst as PC's do I would suspect that the PC's would rather take something out of the melee permanently instead of taking the chance it could pop back up and start killing them again.
Considering how easy it is for a downed player to get healing and be back up in the fight, unless the module and tactics state otherwise. i see it as a valid option.
If monsters had the same abilities with leaders in their midst as PC's do I would suspect that the PC's would rather take something out of the melee permanently instead of taking the chance it could pop back up and start killing them again.
The default state for monsters is to NOT coup de gras unless their tactics specifically state they do it, so while a "valid" option, it's out of character for the monstesr to be doing it. Read the Coup De Grace sections in the books for support on that.
The default state for monsters is NOT to CdG a player as long as the other players give it other options. (Or indeed the tactics specifically state the monster is just mean)
If players insist on leaving the monster immobilized/dazed next to their downed compatriot and refuse to give it another viable target.....whammo. Even more so if the players make that choice under the express, and sometimes debated at the table, assumption that CdG wont be used by the DM.
Nine times out of ten CdG will be a suboptimal choice for the monster. One CdG is rarely going to kill a player outright and the monster would be much better served trying to take out an immediate threat. Of course since a single CdG will rarely kill a player outright it also serves as an excellent way to shock players out of their metagaming mode and/or create a real sense of danger.
For me, CdG is a DMs tool like many others. If you use it as a brute force instrument to pummel your players they will not have fun and neither will you (unless you like frustrated players, in which case you might consider a change of role.. make a barbarian PC?) . If used with some finesse it can be a cool addition, but that is not easy. I would say use it, but use it sparingly and never with the express goal of killing a PC unless the tactics or monsters motivations prescribe it.
EDIT: I don't see it as out of character for a lot of monsters at all. Out of character for the DM maybe. There is an abundance of monsters whose main motivations are death, destruction, delivering suffering or just plain neutral hungry kill and feed. CdG can be very very IN character for monsters a lot of the time. Good thing it is not up to the monster, it is up to the DM.
DMG p.40: "Don’t hit people when they’re down. When a character falls unconscious, monsters turn their attention to enemies who are still up and fighting. Monsters don’t usually intentionally deal damage to fallen foes."
That said, if a PC was helpless for a round (maybe due to a save ends power), an enemy would almost certainly CdG for extra damage... that's just good tactics. Also, if an intelligent foe notices that the PC's are getting healed anytime they go down, they'll probably start using better tactics (i.e. making sure their target stays down) rather than continually playing whack-a-mole.
Anecdote: I'm normally against CdG'ing PC's, but I pretty much had too in my last game. I had brought down the party cleric and said "well, these driders are nasty and intelligent, but I'm not planning to CdG anyone just yet. Of course, if they see ya'll pop back up after being dropped, they'll start using suitable tactics". So after the cleric got healed and then taken down again, the players would've disappointed with me if I didn't CdG him.
DMG p.40: "Don’t hit people when they’re down. When a character falls unconscious, monsters turn their attention to enemies who are still up and fighting. Monsters don’t usually intentionally deal damage to fallen foes."That said, if a PC was helpless for a round (maybe due to a save ends power), an enemy would almost certainly CdG for extra damage... that's just good tactics. Also, if an intelligent foe notices that the PC's are getting healed anytime they go down, they'll probably start using better tactics (i.e. making sure their target stays down) rather than continually playing whack-a-mole.
Anecdote: I'm normally against CdG'ing PC's, but I pretty much had too in my last game. I had brought down the party cleric and said "well, these driders are nasty and intelligent, but I'm not planning to CdG anyone just yet. Of course, if they see ya'll pop back up after being dropped, they'll start using suitable tactics". So after the cleric got healed and then taken down again, the players would've disappointed with me if I didn't CdG him.
People often use that quote from the DMG and present it as a rule. Although I don't think mvincent is trying to present it as such it gives me an opening to address a pet peeve. So just for the heck of it lets quote the whole start of DMG page 40:
Running Combat
Chapter 9 of the Player’s Handbook tells you everything you need to know about the mechanics of combat. Here are some tips to help you keep things moving smoothly.
Describing the Circumstances
“Dispensing Information” (page 26) discusses theinformation you should give your players that is most important in combat encounters: Avoid unfairly hitting them with “Gotcha!” abilities, be sure to communicate conditions and states, and alert them to possible dangers and hazards in their environment.
Monsters and Fallen Characters
Don’t hit people when they’re down.
-snip-...
I added a little emphasis to the first paragraph.
So, having checked; chapter 9 of the PHB has no rules on not hitting downed PCs. In short, this is a tip, not a rule.
While I consider it a very good tip and one I would often follow (as I already explained earlier), I get tired of seeing it thrown around as if it is anything more than good and friendly advice.
People should make up their own mind on what advice to take, and what to leave and how to use CdG.
So, having checked; chapter 9 of the PHB has no rules on not hitting downed PCs. In short, this is a tip, not a rule.
True... but then there's also Rule 0. I don't believe that was reprinted in 4e (if you have a pageno, I'd like it), but the gist of it is: The DM doesn't have to follow any "rule" if doing so will result in a decrease of fun. There are certain rules that you have to follow in RPGA, but those are in the modules and CCG, not the rulebooks. Even if the rules let you CdG (which they do), you should do it only when it'll be the most fun outcome for all involved. It's perfectly appropriate in some circumstances, but if the DM is just being a **** and trying to "score kills," that's not one of them.
Could a monster just pick up a pc and put him in a closet or something?
Could a monster just pick up a pc and put him in a closet or something?
To move someone requires two standard actions (one to grab, one to move), each with an attack roll.
To move a downed ally (and the rule specifies ally), you need only a minor action and a move. (PH, p. 290)
Since there's absolutely no difference between moving a downed enemy and downed ally, I would surmise that the reason for this distinction is purely a "don't be a dick" rationale.
Could a monster just pick up a pc and put him in a closet or something?
To move someone requires two standard actions (one to grab, one to move), each with an attack roll.
To move a downed ally (and the rule specifies ally), you need only a minor action and a move. (PH, p. 290)
Since there's absolutely no difference between moving a downed enemy and downed ally, I would surmise that the reason for this distinction is purely a "don't be a dick" rationale.
...unless you're an ankheg.
I accidentally had my first PK when the wizard decided to jump in front of the ranger, got grabbed by an attack and didn't escape before the next round. The monster was in the process of withdrawing from combat and he was killed by the minor action to scuttle away. Oops...
...unless you're an ankheg.
I accidentally had my first PK when the wizard decided to jump in front of the ranger, got grabbed by an attack and didn't escape before the next round. The monster was in the process of withdrawing from combat and he was killed by the minor action to scuttle away. Oops...
A character dying like that makes a great story so I don't mind going down like that
Heroic awesome deaths or just comical misfortunes, the best ways to go in game. Of course, the party survived. But she still has that fear...Make decisions and adjudications that enhance the
fun of the adventure when possible.
I wouldn't coup de gra a player in a rpga sanctioned event unless I was sure he wouldn't mind because for some people dieing really ruin's their enjoyment of the game. Especially if its early in a mod and they can't even get ressed so they sit around doing jack for most of a slot.
Deaths can happen in rpga but its easy to coup de gra someone because focus fire can many pcs to go down easy espcially since rpga tables are not put together to always make an uber table and sometimes you get very underpowered tables.
Recently I was GMing an LFR adventure where the party were up against a group of intelligent creatures who were used to working together as a team. They were doing OK against the party, knocking down about half the PC's, but each time the cleric got them back up again. So the next time a PC was knocked down two of the bad guys readied actions to coup de grace the PC then called on the rest of the party to thrown down their weapons and surrender!
There was some discussion (causing the player of the downed PC to sweat!), but eventually the rest of the PC's surrendered and were taken prisoner.
This lead to a totally different path for the adventure, but one which caused the players much angst as well as enjoyment. They escaped custody and just armed with their fists (and a +1 dagger which the rogue managed to conceal on a bad guy when he was searched, then steal back as the creature moved on to the next PC) took on the next encounter, then using weapons taken from the bad guys fought the next encounter, etc. They eventually liberated most of their gear, then located the group that had originally captured them celebrating with the gold they had been paid. As the bad guys were thoroughly drunk they negotiated to return the rest of the PC's gear in exchange for not being killed. The players agreed, then sat down and played cards with their former adversaries, winning a couple more magic items in the process.
All in all they got full xp for everything except the first encounter, got access to all rewards (after the card game), and the players walked away from the table with a great sense of achievement and an LFR experience they will never forget.
The point I suppose is, that the threat of coup de grace, delivered at the right time, can be an effective tool in creating a tense situation enhancing the players' enjoyment of the game, as opposed to the indifferent application of this mechanic which will tend to do the opposite.
Cheers,
Carl Brisgamer
Example: The Wraith (shadow creature) has a special power to raise a dead enemy as a new wraith.
As a GM I would have it CdG a PC as it would be the obvious way to go for the creature.
Idem for creature that regenerate or other when killing.