Cani I say "No"? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Cani I say "No"?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
dravidius
Nov 12, 2008 7:57:40 I know I am running LFR/RPGA stuff, but can I as a DM say no to a player's choice for race. I have someone who wants to play a Warforged in my LFR game and to be honest, I really don't want that in the game right now. Maybe after Ebberon comes out or something, but right now I don't care to have it. He is trying to do a Warforged Barbarian. I suggested Dragonblooded Barbarian but haven't heard back from him yet. Can I just say, "No, you need to pick a different race from the PHP or FRPG." This is my first time DMing RPGA/LFR, and looking for a little guidance form those more experienced.
#2
Wavester
Nov 12, 2008 8:21:02
I know I am running LFR/RPGA stuff, but can I as a DM say no to a player's choice for race. I have someone who wants to play a Warforged in my LFR game and to be honest, I really don't want that in the game right now. Maybe after Ebberon comes out or something, but right now I don't care to have it. He is trying to do a Warforged Barbarian. I suggested Dragonblooded Barbarian but haven't heard back from him yet. Can I just say, "No, you need to pick a different race from the PHP or FRPG." This is my first time DMing RPGA/LFR, and looking for a little guidance form those more experienced.

Nope on the no. Running an LFR game means everybody is playing by the same set of rules. So players can shift groups and travel to conventions and play with others all on the same level playing field (within reason of course). You can let the player know you don't like them as you have but if he wants to play one he is legal to do so. If you don't allow him then you're not playing LFR you're playing a home game that borrows some LFR rules.
#3
dravidius
Nov 12, 2008 9:03:53 Ok thanks a lot. I wasn't sure about it. As always I appreciate the help.
#4
mherduwynn
Nov 12, 2008 9:27:35 And since someone often has to be the carrot to Dave's stick, thank you for asking. That kind of question is exactly what these forums is for and it's good to see you inquire.

Hope you are enjoying the campaign so far and your RPGA experiences as a whole!

Take care,
-August
#5
telvin3d
Nov 12, 2008 10:56:15 But that doesn't mean you have to ignore their race. Anyone who plays a Gnoll in my games tends to be treated with extreme suspicion by many NPCs. I have also has a player with an orc in games where that was not the diplomatic thing to be.
#6
dravidius
Nov 12, 2008 11:17:09 I was thinking that people would look at him as strange and frightening, perhaps using the Golden Rule and applying a -2 to any social checks except Intimidate in an adventure until he completes it and the people of the area are more comfortable with him.
#7
Madfox11
Nov 13, 2008 9:09:26 Before you apply such social penalties, do keep in mind that adventurers are by definition both feared and respected, depending on the situation, and considered odd. They cause (and solve) a lot of trouble, and do stuff no sane person would ever do. Furthermore, in a setting were being "non"-human is rather common, having fur or being made out of wood is hardly going to be weirder then how a human adventurer generally looks. Mind you, I am not saying such races would never get frowns by locals, just that it should not be automatically.

Another thing to keep in mind, is that while you might not like a particular race, the players might. You might think applying those social penalties is fair, the player might not. Ultimately everybody should have fun at the table. Even in a home game a DM cannot demand things his players would not want ;)
#8
dravidius
Nov 13, 2008 10:08:26 You are right, i didn't think about that. I told my player he was cool to go ahead and play the Warforged Barbarian that he wanted to play. All is well right now. Thanks for all the help and advise.
#9
monad
Nov 13, 2008 19:23:24 Although if you're playing something like a Gnoll (or a pureblooded Orc), a race generally viewed as a monster rather than as actual people, you'd probably garner a lot more suspicion/hostility/fear than would a Dwarf or a Tiefling.
#10
_Mithreinmaethor_
Nov 13, 2008 20:03:27 I hate Warforged in the Realms with a passion.

When I run they get treated like outsiders. And more than once in bar scenes I have been known to say "We dont serve their kind here"

Sorry had to throw the star wars ref in there.
#11
Madfox11
Nov 14, 2008 5:17:18
Although if you're playing something like a Gnoll (or a pureblooded Orc), a race generally viewed as a monster rather than as actual people, you'd probably garner a lot more suspicion/hostility/fear than would a Dwarf or a Tiefling.

Note that orcs are actually considered reasonably civilized in several parts of the FR. Luruar is on speaking terms with the Kingdom of Many Arrows, although, the orc king has no full control on random raiders coming down from that area. Thesk actually contains a large population of fully integrated orcs as well.

hate Warforged in the Realms with a passion.

When I run they get treated like outsiders. And more than once in bar scenes I have been known to say "We dont serve their kind here"

Sorry had to throw the star wars ref in there.

Star Wars references aside (bad one at that: war forged don't drink ;)), if you are running a LFR adventure you are by definition accepting the campaign rules. You might not like a particular race for whatever reason, but if it is legal a player should not be confronted with unexpected social penalties that impede the groups chances of success. Cold stares and rude behaviour are likely no big problem, although, if it is ruining the fun of the player, better tone it down. Actual penalties, attacks, arrests and what not are not fine unless it is specifically stated in the adventure.

What would scare the average NPC more? The horned human with a long tail that wears black studded leather, has glowing eyes and does not shrink from summoning flames in his hands and is armed with rods, daggers and crossbows or the weird construct that has no visible weapons and seems to be calm and detached?

Side note: if you are primarily running LFR as a home campaign, if you do not like a particular option, it is best to talk with your players, offer alternatives, just as you do in a regular home game. If he still refuses, you have other problems besides the rules.
#12
dkay807
Nov 14, 2008 14:45:02
I hate Warforged in the Realms with a passion.

When I run they get treated like outsiders. And more than once in bar scenes I have been known to say "We dont serve their kind here"

Sorry had to throw the star wars ref in there.

I play a Warforged in LFR and some guy at one of my tables with a very similar opinion as you verbally harassed me to the point where I felt racially discriminated against for the first time in my life (in D&D - go figure). And this wasn't in character either.

I know that many people who read this might have a chuckle... we certainly did when he went off the way he did. However, that type of behavior shouldn't be tolerated and I'd admonish you to be careful with things like that - not everyone shares your opinion.
#13
monad
Nov 14, 2008 20:31:58
Note that orcs are actually considered reasonably civilized in several parts of the FR. Luruar is on speaking terms with the Kingdom of Many Arrows, although, the orc king has no full control on random raiders coming down from that area. Thesk actually contains a large population of fully integrated orcs as well.

Really? Huh. Sorry, while I've been playing since 2nd edition, the details of the Forgotten Realms are pretty new to me and I haven't really made my way through the Campaign Guide yet.

Still, Gnolls. I mean, Gnolls. :D
Reactions would also probably depend upon if the adventure is taking place in the backwater, or somewhere like Waterdeep. I wouldn't want to do anything so severe as to impact the story of the module, but but small touches here and there (when appropriate) can make things feel like you're actually in a roleplaying game, rather than just reading stuff off of a sheet someone else wrote.

I don't really have anything against Warforged in LFR (in fact, one of my favorite 3rd edition characters was Warforged), although I'd like a bit more campaign-specific information as to why they're in LFR and where they come from, or at the very least it'd be nice if the player had a good origin story.
#14
Madfox11
Nov 17, 2008 4:48:29 Small touches are usually no issue, although, it does pay to chat with the players involved and the setting you are playing at. At a convention I first make sure what the player's idea is about the race and what he considers fun. For some even the little things can ruin their fun.

Ultimately a specific race or PC might not fit my image of the setting, but even what appears to be perfectly normal combinations can cause consistency issues for me. I learned to ignore them and focus on the parts of the game I get my fun from. As long as the player I am gaming with is not a jerk, that tends to work like a charm.
#15
higzilla
Nov 20, 2008 10:54:37
Star Wars references aside (bad one at that: war forged don't drink ;)), .

Actually thats the best reason, to have them kicked from a bar they don't drink. So the owner doesnt make money, So the guy is just being a vagrant.

Which is probably the entire motivation in the movie, but it comes across as some sort of racial bias, which wasnt the point at all.
#16
tonus
Nov 21, 2008 16:42:17
I don't really have anything against Warforged in LFR (in fact, one of my favorite 3rd edition characters was Warforged), although I'd like a bit more campaign-specific information as to why they're in LFR and where they come from, or at the very least it'd be nice if the player had a good origin story.

I think the thing to do is not get hung up on the name "Warforged". There's plenty of history with constructs in the Realms. If you can swing playing Core 1-3 as your first adventure, you're even *handed* an origin story - the opening scene ritual actually worked! (Sort of...)
#17
KarmaInferno
Nov 23, 2008 11:34:20 Correct, there is a long running history of living constructs in the Realms, called "Gondsmen".

Gond being the Faerunian god of invention, innovation, and artifice.

And I did get to play mine with Core1-3 as his opening adventure. The DM had my character appear with a cascade of water, as he'd spent the last hundred years digging himself out from the ocean floor and walking towards the mainland.

=)

-karma
#18
bgibbons
Nov 24, 2008 11:12:26
I play a Warforged in LFR and some guy at one of my tables with a very similar opinion as you verbally harassed me to the point where I felt racially discriminated against for the first time in my life (in D&D - go figure).

Most people are playing D&D as a fantasy game. If the character concept of your warforged is intended to make other players think of Iron Man or a Star Wars droid, I don't have a problem with people being irritated at the player ruining their immersion. Unfortunately, the warforged race seems to attract such players.

I don't necessarily have a problem with warforged per se. However, I find the way that races are plopped into the campaign without any concern for their fit in the setting to be troubling, and I find players who want to play a SciFi character in a Fantasy setting irritating.
#19
kinevon
Nov 24, 2008 17:38:49 Forgotten Realms: Where anything goes.

Dragons over here, and a whole high tech civilization (Lantan) over here.

And a simple warforged stretches your suspension of disbelief?

Ha!
#20
PinkRose
Nov 24, 2008 20:40:40 I was able to talk to Mike Mearls (Designer and Author of 4e) at the World Wide Game Day this summer.
I also disliked the idea of Warforged in FR since I had been playing there since the beginning.
His suggestion was the same as that above. Think of a reason for the Warforged in the world. Was it an animated Statue? A Guard for a mage? Maybe a Halfling polymorphed? A fighter fused into his platemail during the Spellplague?

Most of those things have been in a novel somewhere.
So let it go. The big thing to remember is that it is accepted now. All Races from Core books are acceptable. And remember, we play the game and only a month changed from 1 edition to the next. But for the "world of Faerun" it has been 100 years. And things have changed. And all our characters prejudices have changed so we as players have to change.

Besides, there's always been a Good Dark Elf. Why not a PC Warforged?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 dravidius Nov 12, 2008 7:57:40	I know I am running LFR/RPGA stuff, but can I as a DM say no to a player's choice for race. I have someone who wants to play a Warforged in my LFR game and to be honest, I really don't want that in the game right now. Maybe after Ebberon comes out or something, but right now I don't care to have it. He is trying to do a Warforged Barbarian. I suggested Dragonblooded Barbarian but haven't heard back from him yet. Can I just say, "No, you need to pick a different race from the PHP or FRPG." This is my first time DMing RPGA/LFR, and looking for a little guidance form those more experienced.
#2 Wavester Nov 12, 2008 8:21:02	I know I am running LFR/RPGA stuff, but can I as a DM say no to a player's choice for race. I have someone who wants to play a Warforged in my LFR game and to be honest, I really don't want that in the game right now. Maybe after Ebberon comes out or something, but right now I don't care to have it. He is trying to do a Warforged Barbarian. I suggested Dragonblooded Barbarian but haven't heard back from him yet. Can I just say, "No, you need to pick a different race from the PHP or FRPG." This is my first time DMing RPGA/LFR, and looking for a little guidance form those more experienced. Nope on the no. Running an LFR game means everybody is playing by the same set of rules. So players can shift groups and travel to conventions and play with others all on the same level playing field (within reason of course). You can let the player know you don't like them as you have but if he wants to play one he is legal to do so. If you don't allow him then you're not playing LFR you're playing a home game that borrows some LFR rules.
#3 dravidius Nov 12, 2008 9:03:53	Ok thanks a lot. I wasn't sure about it. As always I appreciate the help.
#4 mherduwynn Nov 12, 2008 9:27:35	And since someone often has to be the carrot to Dave's stick, thank you for asking. That kind of question is exactly what these forums is for and it's good to see you inquire. Hope you are enjoying the campaign so far and your RPGA experiences as a whole! Take care, -August
#5 telvin3d Nov 12, 2008 10:56:15	But that doesn't mean you have to ignore their race. Anyone who plays a Gnoll in my games tends to be treated with extreme suspicion by many NPCs. I have also has a player with an orc in games where that was not the diplomatic thing to be.
#6 dravidius Nov 12, 2008 11:17:09	I was thinking that people would look at him as strange and frightening, perhaps using the Golden Rule and applying a -2 to any social checks except Intimidate in an adventure until he completes it and the people of the area are more comfortable with him.
#7 Madfox11 Nov 13, 2008 9:09:26	Before you apply such social penalties, do keep in mind that adventurers are by definition both feared and respected, depending on the situation, and considered odd. They cause (and solve) a lot of trouble, and do stuff no sane person would ever do. Furthermore, in a setting were being "non"-human is rather common, having fur or being made out of wood is hardly going to be weirder then how a human adventurer generally looks. Mind you, I am not saying such races would never get frowns by locals, just that it should not be automatically. Another thing to keep in mind, is that while you might not like a particular race, the players might. You might think applying those social penalties is fair, the player might not. Ultimately everybody should have fun at the table. Even in a home game a DM cannot demand things his players would not want ;)
#8 dravidius Nov 13, 2008 10:08:26	You are right, i didn't think about that. I told my player he was cool to go ahead and play the Warforged Barbarian that he wanted to play. All is well right now. Thanks for all the help and advise.
#9 monad Nov 13, 2008 19:23:24	Although if you're playing something like a Gnoll (or a pureblooded Orc), a race generally viewed as a monster rather than as actual people, you'd probably garner a lot more suspicion/hostility/fear than would a Dwarf or a Tiefling.
#10 _Mithreinmaethor_ Nov 13, 2008 20:03:27	I hate Warforged in the Realms with a passion. When I run they get treated like outsiders. And more than once in bar scenes I have been known to say "We dont serve their kind here" Sorry had to throw the star wars ref in there.
#11 Madfox11 Nov 14, 2008 5:17:18	Although if you're playing something like a Gnoll (or a pureblooded Orc), a race generally viewed as a monster rather than as actual people, you'd probably garner a lot more suspicion/hostility/fear than would a Dwarf or a Tiefling. Note that orcs are actually considered reasonably civilized in several parts of the FR. Luruar is on speaking terms with the Kingdom of Many Arrows, although, the orc king has no full control on random raiders coming down from that area. Thesk actually contains a large population of fully integrated orcs as well. hate Warforged in the Realms with a passion. When I run they get treated like outsiders. And more than once in bar scenes I have been known to say "We dont serve their kind here" Sorry had to throw the star wars ref in there. Star Wars references aside (bad one at that: war forged don't drink ;)), if you are running a LFR adventure you are by definition accepting the campaign rules. You might not like a particular race for whatever reason, but if it is legal a player should not be confronted with unexpected social penalties that impede the groups chances of success. Cold stares and rude behaviour are likely no big problem, although, if it is ruining the fun of the player, better tone it down. Actual penalties, attacks, arrests and what not are not fine unless it is specifically stated in the adventure. What would scare the average NPC more? The horned human with a long tail that wears black studded leather, has glowing eyes and does not shrink from summoning flames in his hands and is armed with rods, daggers and crossbows or the weird construct that has no visible weapons and seems to be calm and detached? Side note: if you are primarily running LFR as a home campaign, if you do not like a particular option, it is best to talk with your players, offer alternatives, just as you do in a regular home game. If he still refuses, you have other problems besides the rules.
#12 dkay807 Nov 14, 2008 14:45:02	I hate Warforged in the Realms with a passion. When I run they get treated like outsiders. And more than once in bar scenes I have been known to say "We dont serve their kind here" Sorry had to throw the star wars ref in there. I play a Warforged in LFR and some guy at one of my tables with a very similar opinion as you verbally harassed me to the point where I felt racially discriminated against for the first time in my life (in D&D - go figure). And this wasn't in character either. I know that many people who read this might have a chuckle... we certainly did when he went off the way he did. However, that type of behavior shouldn't be tolerated and I'd admonish you to be careful with things like that - not everyone shares your opinion.
#13 monad Nov 14, 2008 20:31:58	Note that orcs are actually considered reasonably civilized in several parts of the FR. Luruar is on speaking terms with the Kingdom of Many Arrows, although, the orc king has no full control on random raiders coming down from that area. Thesk actually contains a large population of fully integrated orcs as well. Really? Huh. Sorry, while I've been playing since 2nd edition, the details of the Forgotten Realms are pretty new to me and I haven't really made my way through the Campaign Guide yet. Still, Gnolls. I mean, Gnolls. :D Reactions would also probably depend upon if the adventure is taking place in the backwater, or somewhere like Waterdeep. I wouldn't want to do anything so severe as to impact the story of the module, but but small touches here and there (when appropriate) can make things feel like you're actually in a roleplaying game, rather than just reading stuff off of a sheet someone else wrote. I don't really have anything against Warforged in LFR (in fact, one of my favorite 3rd edition characters was Warforged), although I'd like a bit more campaign-specific information as to why they're in LFR and where they come from, or at the very least it'd be nice if the player had a good origin story.
#14 Madfox11 Nov 17, 2008 4:48:29	Small touches are usually no issue, although, it does pay to chat with the players involved and the setting you are playing at. At a convention I first make sure what the player's idea is about the race and what he considers fun. For some even the little things can ruin their fun. Ultimately a specific race or PC might not fit my image of the setting, but even what appears to be perfectly normal combinations can cause consistency issues for me. I learned to ignore them and focus on the parts of the game I get my fun from. As long as the player I am gaming with is not a jerk, that tends to work like a charm.
#15 higzilla Nov 20, 2008 10:54:37	Star Wars references aside (bad one at that: war forged don't drink ;)), . Actually thats the best reason, to have them kicked from a bar they don't drink. So the owner doesnt make money, So the guy is just being a vagrant. Which is probably the entire motivation in the movie, but it comes across as some sort of racial bias, which wasnt the point at all.
#16 tonus Nov 21, 2008 16:42:17	I don't really have anything against Warforged in LFR (in fact, one of my favorite 3rd edition characters was Warforged), although I'd like a bit more campaign-specific information as to why they're in LFR and where they come from, or at the very least it'd be nice if the player had a good origin story. I think the thing to do is not get hung up on the name "Warforged". There's plenty of history with constructs in the Realms. If you can swing playing Core 1-3 as your first adventure, you're even handed an origin story - the opening scene ritual actually worked! (Sort of...)
#17 KarmaInferno Nov 23, 2008 11:34:20	Correct, there is a long running history of living constructs in the Realms, called "Gondsmen". Gond being the Faerunian god of invention, innovation, and artifice. And I did get to play mine with Core1-3 as his opening adventure. The DM had my character appear with a cascade of water, as he'd spent the last hundred years digging himself out from the ocean floor and walking towards the mainland. =) -karma
#18 bgibbons Nov 24, 2008 11:12:26	I play a Warforged in LFR and some guy at one of my tables with a very similar opinion as you verbally harassed me to the point where I felt racially discriminated against for the first time in my life (in D&D - go figure). Most people are playing D&D as a fantasy game. If the character concept of your warforged is intended to make other players think of Iron Man or a Star Wars droid, I don't have a problem with people being irritated at the player ruining their immersion. Unfortunately, the warforged race seems to attract such players. I don't necessarily have a problem with warforged per se. However, I find the way that races are plopped into the campaign without any concern for their fit in the setting to be troubling, and I find players who want to play a SciFi character in a Fantasy setting irritating.
#19 kinevon Nov 24, 2008 17:38:49	Forgotten Realms: Where anything goes. Dragons over here, and a whole high tech civilization (Lantan) over here. And a simple warforged stretches your suspension of disbelief? Ha!
#20 PinkRose Nov 24, 2008 20:40:40	I was able to talk to Mike Mearls (Designer and Author of 4e) at the World Wide Game Day this summer. I also disliked the idea of Warforged in FR since I had been playing there since the beginning. His suggestion was the same as that above. Think of a reason for the Warforged in the world. Was it an animated Statue? A Guard for a mage? Maybe a Halfling polymorphed? A fighter fused into his platemail during the Spellplague? Most of those things have been in a novel somewhere. So let it go. The big thing to remember is that it is accepted now. All Races from Core books are acceptable. And remember, we play the game and only a month changed from 1 edition to the next. But for the "world of Faerun" it has been 100 years. And things have changed. And all our characters prejudices have changed so we as players have to change. Besides, there's always been a Good Dark Elf. Why not a PC Warforged?