Kithran
I went to Staples and printed out a mod for a game I ran-say it was 32 pages and I paid $3.20 to print it out.
I then sell this mod to another person who wants to dm it for $3.20.
or say $3.00.
or what about $5.00?
Correct? Ethical?
This gives me a thought for an interesting question:
I went to Staples and printed out a mod for a game I ran-say it was 32 pages and I paid $3.20 to print it out.
I then sell this mod to another person who wants to dm it for $3.20.
or say $3.00.
or what about $5.00?
Correct? Ethical?
Selling a published module, even just for the cost of the module, falls into greyer areas. I am not a lawyer, but it *could* be seen as publishing/distribution which would violate RPGA/WoTC copyright.
Now, if you're doing it for a mod here, or a mod there, and whatnot, the odds of someone calling WotC to report you are slim to none, and equally low that you'll get a knock on the door from any law enforcement.
However, since you asked, I don't *think* it's legal. I know I'd avoid it myself on legal grounds. As I said before IANAL, so I could be wrong.
Considering that any convention is effectively charging to play RPGA games either directly or indirectly (depending on whether the convention charages a general convention entry fee or a per-slot fee) then charging for WitR is allowable.
Kithran
My question was about home games and game days, not conventions. Conventions deal financially with WOTC to make sure they are compensated for what they charge to use WOTC's property. Game days and home games do not.
Conventions deal financially with WOTC to make sure they are compensated for what they charge to use WOTC's property. Game days and home games do not.
Please believe me here, the VAST majority of conventions have NO financial dealings with Wizards!
As to game days and home games, it is completely in the hands of the event organizer as to whether they want to charge to take part in their event. It's their event after all. If you don't like the idea of paying to play in it, then you have the choice not to attend.
A gaming space is needed and hosting any size event can incur some costs many forget about from heating and cooling to toilet paper to some portion of what is paid to lease/rent/own the space itself. Maybe even providing necessary internet connection and renting/buying adequate seating and tables. There are certainly other logistical costs like printing, travel, advertising and possibly DM enticements to run.
The gaming industry has gotten rougher on your favorite local gaming store due largely to internet discounts and larger chains carrying the same product. Many have changed to a business model where promoting and charging for in-store gaming is more of their profit as opposed to the old days where free in-store gaming drove sales of gaming products at full retail.
Even as I don't charge for hosting home games with my friends at my place, I think those organizing events of any size have a perfect right to recoup their expenses and maybe even make a small profit providing a game space and supporting the play that occurs there. While providing RPGA content may be a fair amount of the draw, I think most of these organizers would likely back other games at a similar rate.
I think as long as you are avoiding the direct sale of the RPGA content and charging for the logistical support of the game play, you are on solid ground. A per seat fee to play that covers the provision of a printed copy of the adventure or per sheet printing fee really seem different than selling the adventures.
We are all welcome to host a table at home for "free" but, somewhere along the lines some of the players are paying for some of the expenses. I am not a rich man but, a flat 5$ dollars a slot is worth it to me and I have frequently paid what amounts to 10$ a slot at cons.
I know the vast majority of conventions are a couple of people renting an abandoned building and putting on a con. I was talking about "real" conventions. :D
I just thought that more people would have an objection to collecting money for something that wasn't theirs.
People aren't coming for the privilege of hanging out in a store and they aren't coming to reimburse someone for whatever copies or other costs they have incurred. They are coming to enjoy an adventure that someone else wrote and that writer won't see anything of the money collected. That's what I have a problem with. That said I understand I am in the minority here.
I just thought that more people would have an objection to collecting money for something that wasn't theirs.
Ah, but they ARE collecting money for something that is theirs. They are selling their time and experience. If you really think a printed adventure instantly turns someone into a proficient DM then print your own and start running.
Besides, based on my own experience if they are charging $1 a player, that is basically covering their own expenses. Between the printing and other miscellaneous supplies I figure that most DMs spend an average of $4-$5 every time they run. Considering that they are harder to find and replace than players it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that they should pass on the cost.
In LFR, the authors write under an understanding that they will be paid for their work once, and assign all rights to it to Wizards (I think). This is not an uncommon method of reimbursing people for creativity. DM's on the other hand, provide their creative input into the adventure (similar to the creative input of an actor performing a writer's play). Generally, they receive no reimbursement, or reimbursement which doesn't cover their out-of-pocket expenses. The organisers incur expenses (convincing a shop to let them use it, printing materials, taking the ridiculous amount of time it takes to organise an RPGA event) and also often receive little or no reimbursement.
Most of the time this is not considered a problem, but if (say) a shop chooses to charge a small amount for the use of heating and lighting - and the opportunity cost (if you're there, they can't run a Magic Tournament which drives sales far more than any RPGA event, for instance) - then this should probably be passed on to the players. Similarly, if an organiser is finding that it is becoming financially implausible for him to carry on doing all the printing, what's better - that he stop organising RPGA events, or that he charges a small fee to go some way towards covering his costs. He's still doing the organiser 'job' for free, spending time he could be spending earning money or spending time with friends or family, or using for rest and relaxation, in order that other people get to play.
Roleplaying is an unbelievably cheap hobby. Even if you keep up with every LFR-legal source of material, it still works out far cheaper than many other pass-times. Expecting to contribute something towards the organisation of the games you play is entirely proper - and those who are fortunate to live in areas where things are not charged for are very lucky indeed!
Ah, but they ARE collecting money for something that is theirs. They are selling their time and experience. If you really think a printed adventure instantly turns someone into a proficient DM then print your own and start running.
Besides, based on my own experience if they are charging $1 a player, that is basically covering their own expenses. Between the printing and other miscellaneous supplies I figure that most DMs spend an average of $4-$5 every time they run. Considering that they are harder to find and replace than players it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that they should pass on the cost.
No one is coming to a game day for some DM's brilliant performance. The are coming for the adventure. I never claimed that an writing turns someone into a brilliant DM and I will thank you not to put words in my mouth. :P
Here's an interesting question for you to consider: if you go to the theatre, who gets the largest portion of the ticket price? The author of the play? Or the actors, producers, venue, support-staff, and so on?
In LFR, the authors write under an understanding that they will be paid for their work once, and assign all rights to it to Wizards (I think). This is not an uncommon method of reimbursing people for creativity. DM's on the other hand, provide their creative input into the adventure (similar to the creative input of an actor performing a writer's play). Generally, they receive no reimbursement, or reimbursement which doesn't cover their out-of-pocket expenses. The organisers incur expenses (convincing a shop to let them use it, printing materials, taking the ridiculous amount of time it takes to organise an RPGA event) and also often receive little or no reimbursement.
Most of the time this is not considered a problem, but if (say) a shop chooses to charge a small amount for the use of heating and lighting - and the opportunity cost (if you're there, they can't run a Magic Tournament which drives sales far more than any RPGA event, for instance) - then this should probably be passed on to the players. Similarly, if an organiser is finding that it is becoming financially implausible for him to carry on doing all the printing, what's better - that he stop organising RPGA events, or that he charges a small fee to go some way towards covering his costs. He's still doing the organiser 'job' for free, spending time he could be spending earning money or spending time with friends or family, or using for rest and relaxation, in order that other people get to play.
Roleplaying is an unbelievably cheap hobby. Even if you keep up with every LFR-legal source of material, it still works out far cheaper than many other pass-times. Expecting to contribute something towards the organisation of the games you play is entirely proper - and those who are fortunate to live in areas where things are not charged for are very lucky indeed!
This is my last post on the topic. I agree with most of what you said and it is clearly very well thought out.
Not to blow my own horn, I am a pretty good DM. People have said so to me. People have asked me to DM things like True Dungeon, Product Demos at conventions, and RPGA events. I have been DMing for a loong time too. To think that someone is a good enough DM to be paid for it, well it just doesn't make sense. There just isn't a shortage of DMs, no matter what anyone says there just isn't. Also there is no DM talented enough to warrant being paid for his efforts. If they were they'd be on stage or in movies. DMing and role playing is a hobby, not a profession.
On your other point it isn't the amount, it's the act. My belief is that people come for the adventure. It isn't their adventure to collect money on. Collecting money to re-coup losses while not an act of greed, just doesn't have the ring of being ethical to me. i.e. I run a game, I have friends over to play a game, I am the host, the players are my guests. The host pays, the guests enjoy, the guests thank the host. Throw any amount of money into it and it becomes something else.
In the end it is just my opinion on the subject as their aren't any rules against it that I have been made aware of. Your opinion may differ, and that is fine.
I agree with most of what you said and it is clearly very well thought out....Your opinion may differ, and that is fine.
I'm sorry. This is unacceptable and I will have to report this post. You are clearly not familiar with the Code of Conduct and generally expected behavior on a message board. You disagree. It is your obligation to demonstrate to others that they are wrong, It is recommended that you make snide comments that undermine one or more of your opponents' : cognitive skills, reading ability, education, grammar, mother's married status at the time of his birth. (Please note that it is no longer expected that you put down the poster's net provider, even if AOL.) It is, further, expected, that you verbally jump up and down and tirade. You are obliged to try to get in the last word.
Please don't let this happen again.
Show
This is a joke.
No one is coming to a game day for some DM's brilliant performance. The are coming for the adventure. I never claimed that an writing turns someone into a brilliant DM and I will thank you not to put words in my mouth. :P
It's not like you can tack the printout on a post outfront and the players can come read it and drive home. The content is bought and paid for by WotC and distributed through the RPGA as a form of marketing to drive sales. Yes, the content is a large part of the draw but, it is given away to be used by D&D players.
You can run it at home off computer for nearly no additional expense to you. Organizers offer a place to play and usually some extra logistical help that has the added advantage drawing a more diverse pool of characters and players than I might willingly invite to my home.
In the case of my local store, it offers a place to play, a DM who has recieved some recompense, printed out adventures, the necessary maps and miniatures for 5 dollars an adventure. The owner would probably support nearly any game I wanted to play there similarly and even runs some of our games for free.
Usually what is being charged for is the additional trouble and expenses involved with running free content in accordance with the owner of the content's instructions in an environment adequate to what is needed. I don't see the problem nor feel as if I am not recieving some value for what I am paying.
I equate it to paying a covercharge at a sports bar to watch a game I could watch at home for free.
There is a big difference hosting a few friends for the occasional mod and organizing 25+ tables. Yes, at home, the DM can just run it off the laptop. At a gameday or convention, every GM is not going to have a laptop to do that as evidenced by the fact some people are balking at paying $5 for a slot. I do not see many people out there making a living organizing game days and conventions.
I've found that when people invest financially in something, they care more about getting the most out of it. $5.00 for a day and a half's entertainment isn't enough to discourage many players and it allows us to ensure a better game all around.
I understand if someone has a problem with this, but it is how we are running ours.
James
I'm given to understand this is somewhat generous (many places charge a flat $2 or $5 fee); alternatively, I've also been told it's too much (some places do it for free or for $1 or $2).
From a storeowner's perspective, this is not much money--I have overhead, other events I could run, etcetera--but I love D&D (it's part of why I bought the store, to continue the gaming community that would've been homeless had the place gone out of business as it was about to). It has a really good side-effect of helping to convince players to buy their books at my store as opposed to, say, Amazon.
A judge who runs an event also gets to play in an event for free, and I give them other perks, too.
For a player...come on. You are going to have 4 hours of entertainment in my store for $5. Where else can you get that much entertainment for that little money per hour? Certainly not at a movie theater, which isn't interactive and doesn't last 4 hours...miniature golf? Cart racing? You'd spend more money playing Magic, that's for sure (one of the things you learn quickly as a game store owner).
My LGS, by and large, is supported primarily on the backs of CCG players and the tournaments they join and the cards they buy. It is, frankly, not fair to them to use space they could use for other games without charging for that space from the people who are using it, if you consider it from that perspective. Five bucks a head for a gaming table isn't going to make anyone rich anytime soon (not like I got into this business to get rich...) but it's all really a matter of perspective.
In other, smaller conventions devoted solely to gaming, the fee is to cover the cost of printing and other administrative expenses plus the cost of renting the spaces used to game in.