Yeah, it's too easy to get 'better' results if you want.
-SYB
So then you start to have dark suspicions about your players and at least one player now convinced that you are paranoid and out to get them. It's far easier to simply keep those dice off the table to start with.
It only really matters if someone is rolling them in the way that produces better results. If they are, they are knowingly cheating. And, really, that is a much bigger problem than just a spin-down die.
-SYB
I... have... seen... this. I politely asked them not to use the die, but I would love to have a hard ruling about them I can refer folks to.
For obvious reasons, many DMs and players object to this practice.
On normal dice, the numbers are ordered in a high-low distribution.
The RPGA general guidelines (They're still dated 2003) do prohibit cheating of any sort, so a player using these in such a way that the judge thinks he/she is cheating could be "cautioned".
Most of the d20 issues/rules spawned from DD mini's (and there's a lot of folks that play both games). Another common issue was "microwaving" dice so that the dice could be made "weighted" (it caused the plastic to melt somewhat, congealing on the bottom). it's hard to do, and i remember one year at GenCon Sr. DMs were taking d20's and putting them in a glass of water to see how they would settle.
You can run into weird issues with players that are vision impaired. I had a player who had purchased a large (size of a baseball) spindown d20 and pasted brail numbering on it... but it was so large (and a spindown) that it was nearly impossible to roll it randomly - without injuring other players
Simultaneously, the player had a random number generator on his laptop, but some judges didn't like that (too easy to cheat). In these situations it's difficult to assess what the right thing to do is. I actually asked the player to use the random number generator on the laptop (it was easier, and I prefer to err on the side of actually trusting the player).I would note that last summer's World Wide Gameday gave away pearlescent d20s that, while not spindowns, also have all high numbers on one side and low on the other. I assume that means the RPGA Team is okay with that kind of thing.
Thats a good point. Personally when I have rolled spindowns I don't even know how to throw the die to get a high numbers. In all honesty I know players who can use standard d20s and know how to throw them to get almost any number they want, its merely a number of holding and throwing the die in the exact same way each time to have an increased chance of getting a given number.
Thats a good point. Personally when I have rolled spindowns I don't even know how to throw the die to get a high numbers. In all honesty I know players who can use standard d20s and know how to throw them to get almost any number they want, its merely a number of holding and throwing the die in the exact same way each time to have an increased chance of getting a given number.
It's particularly of issue with the oversize dice (another thing I don't really like at the table). They don't roll as much as the smaller dice to, and when they do roll enough to be random they wipe out hordes of minis or slam into another player at the table. The smaller spindowns can be used if you have a dice cup, since there isn't an easy way to set the sides up so that it falls favorably.
On normal dice, the numbers are ordered in a high-low distribution.
Specifically, on a d20, the numbers are arranged so that opposite sides add up to 21. In fact, except for d4s and d10s, I believe that all dice are made so that opposite sides add up to number of sides +1. d10s are split between even/odd sides, and d4s are just weird.
I would note that last summer's World Wide Gameday gave away pearlescent d20s that, while not spindowns, also have all high numbers on one side and low on the other. I assume that means the RPGA Team is okay with that kind of thing.
Ummm... no. I just looked at mine, it is standard, not spindown.
I would note that last summer's World Wide Gameday gave away pearlescent d20s that, while not spindowns, also have all high numbers on one side and low on the other. I assume that means the RPGA Team is okay with that kind of thing.
Ummm... no. I just looked at mine, it is standard, not spindown.
I said not spindown: high on one side, low on the other. Grab the die and hold it or sit it down so that you're looking at the number 18 on top. You're looking at every number form 11-20. Flip it over so that the number 8 is on top and you're looking at the low numbers, 1-10.
The main issue I hear brought up with spin downs is that while it isn't any easier to hit a specific number than any random die, it IS easier to roll/drop/toss the die so that it definitely lands on "the top half" of the die. That is also possible with this die, provided to player by RPGA.
And yeah, it all comes down to just trusting your players by default. If I hear about someone cheating or it is brought up at the table or I notice cheating at the table, I'll act on it as per the penalty guidelines, but if someone really wanted to cheat and I really wanted to make absolutely sure no one at the table was cheating, I would need to read every character sheet, check every bit of math, double check feat bonuses, have every core, supplement, and Dragon magazine there and ready to look up every power and magic item every time a player wants to use one. That doesn't sounds fun to me, either as the DM checking everything, the player being checked up on, or another player at the table waiting to play. And suggesting that one player is cheating because of his non-loaded dice without checking to see if other players are cheating is ~(censor)~.
But it can be one of those situations where calling people on it is awkward. First, there are LOTS of spindown dice out there. They are the preferred life counter for many Magic players. I'd say that 90% of the time if someone is using a spindown die, it is simply because it's one they had lying around. Even if you call someone on throwing it in such a way as to prejudice the results, it is very easy for them to play innocent. For that matter, they may very well have not intended to do any such thing and simply have thrown the dice a little funny.
So then you start to have dark suspicions about your players and at least one player now convinced that you are paranoid and out to get them. It's far easier to simply keep those dice off the table to start with.
That was why I used 2d10 to keep track of my life. Never had a Spindown, and it is a PitA to find the number you need on a d20 sometimes.
That and the life gaining deck. (I once needed 3. My opponents weren't too happy that day. If only I had channel and Fireball...)
That was why I used 2d10 to keep track of my life. Never had a Spindown, and it is a PitA to find the number you need on a d20 sometimes.
That and the life gaining deck. (I once needed 3. My opponents weren't too happy that day. If only I had channel and Fireball...)
Standard d10 is about as bad as a d20 when tracking consecutive numbers. I know, we play Mnchkin all the time. The Munchkin die I bought is much easier for that, since the numbers are consecutive...
D-TOTAL IS ONE
D-TOTAL IS TOTAL
http://www.dicecollector.com/D24_ALEXANDER_SIMKIN_GAMESCIENCE_D_TOTAL_01.jpg
if you really want to screw with your DM... sneak a Formula De die into your roll sometime. :D
I've often thought about that trick. (For those who don't know, a Formula De d20 has the numbers 11-20, twice each on the die.)
Someone who really wanted to make hard-to-detect cheating dice would make a d20 with, for example, the 4 and 7 replaced by 14 and 17. You'd still make epic fail rolls, you wouldn't crit more often, but you'd hit a lot more.
Let's not catalogue cheating methods on the forums, eh?
At least, not on the RPGA forums.
Let's not catalogue cheating methods on the forums, eh?
Honestly, why not? It isn't like cheaters will struggle to find ways to cheat and at least if it is discussed here DMs will have some idea what to look for if they are suspicious. I have never seen cheating any worse than a fudged die roll or two in my kids games. When I see it, I call it out and they stop. I do know however that there must be adult cheaters and it is good to have some idea what I should be looking out for. Obscurity isn't security.
That was why I used 2d10 to keep track of my life. Never had a Spindown, and it is a PitA to find the number you need on a d20 sometimes.
That and the life gaining deck. (I once needed 3. My opponents weren't too happy that day. If only I had channel and Fireball...)
3 Ha I played in a massive 14 player battle royal style event once with a similar type of deck I was gaining roughly 15-20 points of life every round. Eventually I had to barrow a D100 in adition to the three d20's I was already using. Then from out of nowhere I got slammed with 2 fireballs for 134 damage and was killed by the player next to me who was playing an Enchantress deck that I Life Tapped yeah he did it with a thirty two thirty four Killer Bee
I'm not opposed to us talking about it in general - for example the mention of the spindown dice, and how a cheater could learn to toss the die to it lands "high" on a regular basis.
If someone said the trick is to hold the die between these fingers, and give it a slight counter-clockwise spin or something of that sort, I'd take a harder stance.
However, as always with kind of topic - make sure you're thinking about what you're posting. Just because a method of cheating is obvious to you (even if you don't use it yourslef) - it may not be ovious to others, and the enticement might always be too much.
Luckily we don't (as a rule) have "prizes" on the line - we're all here for fun, so cheating should only be a minor concern.
D-TOTAL IS ALL
D-TOTAL IS ONE
*END RANT*
No, D-Total is a pain to read, I should never have to re-roll a die for a valid result.
I should never have to re-roll a die for a valid result.
Really? Because brutal 2 is amazing.
Really? Because brutal 2 is amazing.
That is a function of the game mechanics (which I don't use). Not a function of the die.
Really? Because brutal 2 is amazing.
Just roll a die two facets smaller, and add 2 to the results. Voila, no rerolling.
No, D-Total is a pain to read, I should never have to re-roll a die for a valid result.
I don't like it because dice should not make my eyes cross and give me a headache just by looking at them.
And they need a chart just to explain what's going on? Yeek.
-karma
Granted, if the cheating would become so bad it started ruining the fun of the other players at the table, I would do something about it. I have not yet been in such a situation yet.
Trying to keep the English correct is difficult enough. Getting the slang correct might at time be a bit too much to ask ;)
This is why I avoid slang, even as a native English-Speaker.
Ha! I pwnd joo n00bl3t. U suXX0r, I r0XX0r. kthxbai!
*Rolled-up Newspaper*
BAD Forum Guide! No cookie!
Really? Because brutal 2 is amazing.
Yeah I just got a Wolven +2 weapon for my Gnoll Barbarian and chose a Khopesh Brutal 1. I know Brutal two is better but Weapon Focus would take up a feat slot I had another use for