Ghosty
Warlocks have their two at-wills chosen for them at the start (Eldritch Blast + pact at-will).
I have heard rumors that this power is mentioned in Arcane Power. So if anyone who has it can confirm this I would appreciate it. There may be text in AP that allows a Warlock to choose Eldritch Blast or Eldritch Strike.
If I had to guess just from the context, I'd guess that the Warlock will henceforth be required to take one Eldritch X at-will (more of which will be included in Arcane Power) and one pact at-will.
If I had to guess just from the context, I'd guess that the Warlock will henceforth be required to take one Eldritch X at-will (more of which will be included in Arcane Power) and one pact at-will.
If this is confirmed and true in Arcane Power then I am sure it will make a lot of people happy. It doesnt effect me all that much.
We've been told by Campaign Management (Chris Tulach) that those cards will be a player resource - and thusly RPGA/LFR legal.
The current CCG doesn't list them, however, which is leading to no small amount of confusion.
I expect that next month, when some details about some fairly unique GenCon events is released an updated CCG will follow. Please note - that's personal speculation only. I could be WAY off.
In case folks haven't picked it up yet, Arcane Power has no change to the rules on how Warlocks pick their At-Wills. So it looks like the Minis card will be a power only available to Humans, Half-Elves and anyone who paragon multiclasses as a Warlock.
Yup. Weird. I was very much expecting a change too. Hmmph.
In the RPGA Member's meeting at DDXP, Chris Tulach indicated that those power cards would be legal as soon as the minis were released. However, there's nothing to that effect in the CCG at this point, so it's a bit of a gray area.
They really, really need to stop doing that.
The response to "Is this allowed?" should ALWAYS be "Check the CCG".
At most, they might indicate that a particular item will be in the NEXT version of the CCG, but they should never be telling folks that something is "legal" unless it's in there.
Grah!
-karma
GRAH!
They need to include auto allowing rules for stuff like this. It seems that the new sales model for wotc includes more micro product sales, and thus powers and options for rpga characters might appear more frequently in this medium. This is much like they do in dragon magazine and as such they should get rules that make them usable at release.
They don't "auto-allow" anything but Dragon, actually, which I still find impressive. Note that most of MoP isn't allowed. With these being new product, I could understand Chris's reluctance to auto-allow them until he knows specifically what's involved, regardless of any deals he has with the Dragon crew.
They need to include auto allowing rules for stuff like this. It seems that the new sales model for wotc includes more micro product sales, and thus powers and options for rpga characters might appear more frequently in this medium. This is much like they do in dragon magazine and as such they should get rules that make them usable at release.
It's concidered an LFR legal player resource if the resouce has been A. produced by WOTC and B. contains player options. The DMG, MM, and Open Grave don't so they are not a legal player resource but the minis game does contain a player option so it's legal.
Publication Content Allowed Date Legal
Player’s Handbook All 6/6/2008
Forgotten Realms Player’s Guide
All except spellscarred rules* and backgrounds 9/16/2008 (8/14/2008*)
*Spellscarred requires RPGA REWARDS CARD
Adventurer’s Vault All 9/16/2008
Martial Power All 11/18/2008
Manual of the Planes Paragon paths 12/16/2008
Player’s Handbook 2 All 3/17/2009
Arcane Power All 4/21/2009
Dragon Magazine All Monthly at end of month
* Forgotten Realms Player’s Guide preview content legal on 8/14/2008
It's concidered an LFR legal player resource if the resouce has been A. produced by WOTC and B. contains player options. The DMG, MM, and Open Grave don't so they are not a legal player resource but the minis game does contain player options so it's legal.
NO. It's only a player resource if the CCG/Tulach/WPN says so. Period. And you can only use the specific content allowed in it.
These are the access rules for 4e RPGA/WPN play.
However, things happen and for whatever reason the CCG hasn't been updated yet.
This reminds me, however, that I need to add Minis cards to the LFR Legal Options list. . .
Then again, it could have been overlooked. But the announcement was made availabel on the WotC site.
The point is that rules changes should not be something players need to hunt for. They should be in a set location and at set intervals, not randomly when someone posts in the interwebs.
-karma
What is desirable is that the CCG be updated. I am confident that in June at the next scheduled update to the CCG, the power cards from the hero minis will be included. I also believe that Chris Tulach is unlikely to have an unscheduled update to the CCG. I believe the review/coordination process for CCG updates is thorough and he is a very busy person. Beside supporting R&D, Chris has started con season. He had to work out what content to present at Origins, Gencon and PAX. He will be reviewing proposals and adventures, and Origins, Gencon, and PAX will impact the flow of adventures for review, causing a hump in work load. Chris still has a lot of projects on his plate, like working on the general RPGA Guidelines. But he recently provided an update to the Writer's Guidelines to take us into Paragon Tier, and an update to the Adventure Template, which besides updating skill challenge format and some changes on the map pages, included the resolution of diseases and other long lasting effects in the boilerplate instructions to the DMs. (DMs should read carefully when you get 1-5 adventures as the boilerplate has changed.) We are expecting (soon I hope) the campaign strategy for level advancement/support in adventures for 2010. There is the new LFR subcampaign which starts at Gencon. And there are some as yet not announced things that Chris is working on. Just some examples of what keeps Chris busy. So if he chooses to make an announcement in a convenient manner for him, cut him some slack please.
Keith
Just some examples of what keeps Chris busy. So if he chooses to make an announcement in a convenient manner for him, cut him some slack please.
Keith... you do realize you're saying this to a bunch of rabid, forum-dwelling gamers... right? :D
Just some examples of what keeps Chris busy. So if he chooses to make an announcement in a convenient manner for him, cut him some slack please.
Keith... you do realize you're saying this to a bunch of rabid, forum-dwelling gamers... right? :D
See, this is why WotC needs to hire me. I'll take the title "Official RPGA Toady" and do all the boring stuff like updating CCGs (and monitoring forums) so that Chris can keep getting the REAL work done. ^_^
Oh. . . wait. . . forgot the [subliminal] tags. . . .
Just curious? Can't a warlock just retrain out of their at will to a different one, I know the starting ones are predetermined but I see no rules that indicate you can't retrain to a different one if you so choose when you level up.
Hm.
(PH 28) "Every time you gain a level, you can retrain your
character: change one feat, power, or skill selection
you made previously."
emphasis mine, and:
"You can’t replace a power that’s a class feature (such
as a cleric’s healing word or a warlock’s eldritch blast) or
a power gained from a paragon path or epic destiny."
Eldritch Blast is given as a class feature and your pact-based AW is also given as a class feature, so no retraining either of those.
Also the new powers do not show up in the character builder, I was looking and could not find them. The powers from the PH Heroes: Series 1 are listed in the Compedium.
So the question is, can you only use the power cards from the PH Heroes: Series 1 if you own them? And are they "freebies"? Meaning you get the ability without taking up any slots?
Or is it just a bug in the character builder?
a) The Character Builder is NOT a rules source, but the Compendium is. If something is missing from the CB, please fill out the form to report it so that it can be fixed for the rest of us.
b) Powers can only ever be added via the rules for learning a new power. Whether you're adding a class power from a core rulebook, a supplement like Arcane Power, a Dragon magazine article, or a minis power card, you have to follow the rules of D&D 4e and the rules allow for adding power at character creation, level up, and via retrain.
Also the new powers do not show up in the character builder, I was looking and could not find them.
They are there. I just updated mine and I checked it out. Built a new fighter, (human) warlock, cleric, etc. and the Minis powers were there. I even loaded one of my pre-built PCs and tried to retrain into oen and it worked fine. If it isn't working, it may be because it won't let a warlock retrain out of At-Wills as both At-Wills are gained via Class Features which cannot be retrained. (although a human has a third At-Will and can retrain that one, I tested it)
So the question is, can you only use the power cards from the PH Heroes: Series 1 if you own them?
Ideally, yes. However, with tem being int he Character Builder, it won't stop anyoen from usign them anyway.
And are they "freebies"? Meaning you get the ability without taking up any slots?
Nope. You have to take the power normally.
Ideally, yes. However, with tem being int he Character Builder, it won't stop anyoen from usign them anyway.
Why would it be ideal that only characters playing a dwarf rogue would get to use a new power? I want these figures to sell well, our group will be getting a full set to use, but it would be a tremendous waste if these new powers were restricted. Fortunately, WOTC was sane on this one, there are no restrictions on most of the powers, Eldritch Strike being the only odd duck and that isn't due to anything with the new cards, it is a class issue. For Eldritch Strike I would let someone switch it out in a home game with no problem at all. For LFR I would allow at my table until I hear an official ruling otherwise, but I would warn the player this is a hot button issue and likely to ruled differently depending on who was DMing.
Why would it be ideal that only characters playing a dwarf rogue would get to use a new power?
Huh? I have no idea where you're getting that from. There's no restrictions on who can use the power. Ideally you would own the card (from buying the minis set) to use the card. Just like ideally you would own a book to use a power from it.
You're losing me, Tancread.
For LFR I would allow at my table until I hear an official ruling otherwise, but I would warn the player this is a hot button issue and likely to ruled differently depending on who was DMing.
The official rules as quoted in this thread do not allow non-human warlocks the possibility of picking this power. Changing core rules on a per table basis leads to very bad things in Living games.
What if DM Joe allows it at his weekly table and so Player Hans build a minotaur melee warlock/fighter around high strength and con based on using that as his main at will, then at level 11, he goes to GenCon this summer and can't use it there because they enforce the core rules and his character is spec'ed out to stay in melee, but now he doesn't have a power to rely on in melee without provoking OAs, so now he has a mostly useless character which is frustrating and leads to him becoming disillusioned with GenCon, Living campaigns on the whole, and playing at your local tables?
The official rules as quoted in this thread do not allow non-human warlocks the possibility of picking this power. Changing core rules on a per table basis leads to very bad things in Living games.
What if DM Joe allows it at his weekly table and so Player Hans build a minotaur melee warlock/fighter around high strength and con based on using that as his main at will, then at level 11, he goes to GenCon this summer and can't use it there because they enforce the core rules and his character is spec'ed out to stay in melee, but now he doesn't have a power to rely on in melee without provoking OAs, so now he has a mostly useless character which is frustrating and leads to him becoming disillusioned with GenCon, Living campaigns on the whole, and playing at your local tables?
He plays his backup character: A Deva Retributitive Avenger of Tempus with Executioner's Axe Proficency. :D
cheers
I am aware that by the strict reading of the law, this seems impossible, but the figure defies this and so I, as a Good aligned DM, feel it won't crack the universe open to allow it. As I said above, I will warn the player that if they run into a Lawful Good Aligned DM, they may have trouble, regardless of the tiefling miniature in their hand.
It is a bad idea to set up a law-abiding DM to be the bad guy.
Allowing something for no other reason than "Eh, there's no harm and I'd let it in my home game" means that the next person showing up at your table might be a 7th level hybrid PC, a PC with a playtest race or class, or a PC who started at 4th level--if that's the standard, you will eventually discover that not everyone has the same harm threshold as you.
The more that DMs allow PCs to ignore the rules, the worse the situation becomes when the player runs into a DM that won't--the player will be justifiably aggrieved because no one has had a problem up to then, the DM will have a headache dealing with a situation he didn't create and the table is likely to lose a significant amount of time while the DM and player tries to deal with the situation.
Unless you are completely certain that he will only be judged by you or by DMs within your sphere of influence, you do a player no kindness by allowing a character that is against the rules.
It is a bad idea to set up a law-abiding DM to be the bad guy.
Unless you are completely certain that he will only be judged by you or by DMs within your sphere of influence, you do a player no kindness by allowing a character that is against the rules.
I understand and appreciate what you are saying and would pass along those caveats to any player in that circumstance. However, a new player walking up the the table with a mini and card he just paid good money to WOTC for that won't upset the balance of my table can play. I will not send him on unaware, nor will I call any DM who doesn't want him to use that power a bad guy, but it is far more important to me that a new player have a fun first game rather than trying to correct WOTC's error. He will not leave the table ignorant of the problem, but I make sure when DMing new players that having fun is the priority. I suspect we can't be brought into agreement on this one, so I will leave it at that. If my actions bring distress to anyone other than the guy who decided to insert a power into a product being sold to new players that would cause them problems, I apologize, but in the scenario I am describing, I do not believe I will be causing you, the player or any other DM problems for the future.
However, a new player walking up the the table with a mini and card he just paid good money to WOTC for that won't upset the balance of my table can play.
A new player in their first adventure? Sure. I have no problem with new players getting the "Okay, there are some things you're going to have to change before the next game day, but we can talk about that after the module" treatment. Even with experienced players, I don't see much harm with letting something go for one module, if the DM thinks it would slow things down unnecessarily, as long as they understand that they'll have to fix it afterward.
The issue isn't that first adventure, it's their fifth or their fifteenth.
There's a big difference between "Hey, you can't actually do that, but we'll let it slide for this one adventure" and "Eh, it's against the rules, but I think it's a bad rule, so feel free to do it as much as you'd like at my table. Just keep in mind that there are overly legalistic DMs who don't understand that fun should trump pointless rules, so if you run into one of them, you might have problems."
It's the latter that would be setting up rule-abiding DMs to be the bad guys.
"You can choose eldritch strike in place of eldritch blast at character creation or retrain it to such using normal retraining rules"
Being that alot of DDI subscribers joined for RPGA content I am sure they don't want to deviate from their origanal strategy.
Bilsland replies "You'll see in the next round of updates" - so, with luck that means there will be a clear answer soon.
As Bilsland was soliciting topics for Errata recently, I think it's safe to assume that new updates are due in the next month-ish.
however, I had a player ask me this when he got the card. I pointed out that if Eldritch Blast is ineligible for normal re-train rules (because it's a CLASS FEATURE), it IS eligible for the "class feature retrain".
CCGv1.8, page2:
Class Features: When you would normally make a
retrain choice, you can instead choose to take a class
feature retrain. When you retrain for a new class feature
(and only for a class feature), you are able to retrain up to 2
powers and 2 feats with the class feature retrain. Each
character is only allowed one class feature retrain. If you
choose to retrain in this manner, make a note of it on your
adventure log.
It's a one-time only thing, but I told him that when he leveled next he could use the once-ever class feature retrain to get the Eldritch Strike. I felt this was a very reasonable interpretation.
On a lark I tweeted about this to Mearls and Bilsland.
Hey, I didn't know they had tweets (of course, I never looked...)
/follow
Hey, I didn't know they had tweets (of course, I never looked...)
/follow
@mikemearls @gregbilsland @aquelajames @srmacfarland @wotc_trevor and
All post fairly regularly on twitter.
I suspect this is a unique / corner oversight. It's going to be a problem for a lot of PHB2 classes as well (the Shaman in particular has several at-will abilities that are dictated by class-feature).
however, I had a player ask me this when he got the card. I pointed out that if Eldritch Blast is ineligible for normal re-train rules (because it's a CLASS FEATURE), it IS eligible for the "class feature retrain".
CCGv1.8, page2:
Class Features: When you would normally make a
retrain choice, you can instead choose to take a class
feature retrain. When you retrain for a new class feature
(and only for a class feature), you are able to retrain up to 2
powers and 2 feats with the class feature retrain. Each
character is only allowed one class feature retrain. If you
choose to retrain in this manner, make a note of it on your
adventure log.
It's a one-time only thing, but I told him that when he leveled next he could use the once-ever class feature retrain to get the Eldritch Strike. I felt this was a very reasonable interpretation.
Except that Eldritch Strike is, itself, not a class feature. So you are letting someone train out a class feature for a non-class feature. Let's wait for the update that may be forthcoming. Allowing people to abuse the rules just gets the rules taken away.
@mikemearls @gregbilsland @aqueleajames @srmacfarland @wotc_trevor andI think I'm forgetting someone@sernett .
All post fairly regularly on twitter.
@ArtOrder as well.
@ArtOrder as well.
Nice!
Of course myself and VCL mudbunny tweet too - so we can be decent agrigators. @wolfstar76 @mudbunny74
Nice!
Of course myself and VCL mudbunny tweet too - so we can be decent agrigators. @wolfstar76 @mudbunny74
I have always thought of both you as tweeters, even before twitter...
Nice!
Of course myself and VCL mudbunny tweet too - so we can be decent agrigators. @wolfstar76 @mudbunny74
Aigh!
It appears you started following me right after I started following you!
Now we're going in circles!
-karma
I suspect this is a unique / corner oversight. It's going to be a problem for a lot of PHB2 classes as well (the Shaman in particular has several at-will abilities that are dictated by class-feature).
however, I had a player ask me this when he got the card. I pointed out that if Eldritch Blast is ineligible for normal re-train rules (because it's a CLASS FEATURE), it IS eligible for the "class feature retrain".
CCGv1.8, page2:
Class Features: When you would normally make a
retrain choice, you can instead choose to take a class
feature retrain. When you retrain for a new class feature
(and only for a class feature), you are able to retrain up to 2
powers and 2 feats with the class feature retrain. Each
character is only allowed one class feature retrain. If you
choose to retrain in this manner, make a note of it on your
adventure log.
It's a one-time only thing, but I told him that when he leveled next he could use the once-ever class feature retrain to get the Eldritch Strike. I felt this was a very reasonable interpretation.
And I appreciated it.
The next RPGA game I played the judge told me no, I can't use the Eldritch Strike Power. Very by the book guy. Its cool though. I'm used to being nerfed lol. In my home game my DM allowed the power because it is obviously what they intended being that the tiefling in the pack had the power. I'll just wait for WotC to get off their behinds and let us Warlocks actually pick our own at-wills. We are already behind the curve.Theziner aka Amalgam LFR