To say that the table I ended up running was obscene was probably a bit of an understatement. The Warlord ensured the party always got the first move, the warlord typically got three actions a round, the Wizard was built around the Frost Cheese orb, and I am sure the rogue was probably disgusting also, but never really had a chance to shine.
I think the scenario was poorly designed, in hindsight, and the party was way too optimized. The Second encounter, the NPC's start in this alcove, and the Wizard dropped a daily, rattled of very quickly a lot of spells and feats and dropped, what I think later, was Evard's Dread Mist... I think (I can't be sure.)... the Npc's tried to move out of the mist, and just couldn't do it with it's area 4 size, and given that it blocked line of sight, they couldn't attack, and then the next turn, he maintained the spell, and dropped another burst on top of the NPC's, which technically he can't see... and technically, he shouldn't be able to be precise with the blast to hit them... but the rules do allow for it, but my sense of "Fairness" started to scream at me, and I briefly lost my top and yelped at the player.
I immediately realized that I had lost my cool, and went and took a break. I took a few moments, reminded myself that it wasn't the players fault, it was the design, and while (even now) I think he is doing something wrong, it wasn't horribly important, and I went back and finished the rather one sided scenario.
...
Now, as a DM, I like to see players win. I really do. I like it when they fight, and even if it isn't a hard fight, I like to see them triumphant. However, as a DM, I want a chance to play, too, and that night, I didn't get to play. It was that moment of "I don't even get to do anything" that had made me loose my cool, and I would have lost my cool as a Player if that had happened in reverse order. It has made me seriously reconsider if I want to play characters once they reach paragon, and made me seriously think about if I want to bother advancing characters past H2. I mean, I don't mind being outshone, but if it's going to be a solo show, or a two person show, I am not sure I want to play.
...
None the less, I am wondering if you have times that you have lost your cool at the game table, and how you ended up handling it.
I guess you could look at it as an opportunity for more roleplaying, since you don't have to spend as much time running combat.
If its something you plan on doing on a regular basis can you discuss it with the players and work something out, reminding them of the "players should police themselves" LFR view?
Its kind of funny this came up because I have seen a DM just pack up and walk away from a paragon level mod recently, similar situation to you.
There's a lot of tactics you'll have to relearn as a DM, they just won't work against PCs at these levels. And make sure the powers are being used properly, you're in your rights to ask for explanations of things you haven't seen before (which will be everything). Errata have nerfed a lot of them too, and even so, players -do- make mistakes. I've corrected a fair share of powers, or simply ruled counter to how players think the powers should work (not maliciously, I just don't agree with their interpretation sometimes). But most of the time, they have it right. They only have to know how their powers work, after all, so they do.
But as for losing your ****. Take a deep breath, smile, remind yourself and the players, that this is all new to you and you're just trying to have fun. Remember, it isn't you versus them, it's them versus the monsters. You're just the guy playing the monsters for them.
It's actually why, for many years, I focused on DMing, rather than playing -- I knew that I had an easier time controlling my temper when I wasn't playing.
That said, my advice would be (a) walk away from the table for a minute or two, to clear your head and calm down, (b) apologize to the rest of your table for losing your cool, and (c) if there are certain situations which are likely to trigger you (i.e., DMing a Paragon table), avoid them if you can.
There's a lot of tactics you'll have to relearn as a DM, they just won't work against PCs at these levels.
While I accept this, this is truely a case where it didn't matter which tactics I was to use, the module, as written, couldn't circumvent the issues, unless you gave every NPC an auto-20 on their initiative, which I am not really prepared to do, as RPGA it is Play by the Book.
But as for losing your ****. Take a deep breath, smile, remind yourself and the players, that this is all new to you and you're just trying to have fun. Remember, it isn't you versus them, it's them versus the monsters. You're just the guy playing the monsters for them.
You see, that was the key problem, though. I wasn't playing the monsters. I merely was there to tell them "You won" after the second round. This might be why no one had bothered to sign up to run it. If I did anything more then just subtract HP, I wouldn't have lost it. I was just sitting there watching my monsters die before they could even interact, for the whole scenario. As the scenario is light on role playing, the table (All DM's) knew the module backwards and forwards, skipped the RP part of the module until the end, and effectively just decimated through Frost Domination and Superior Initiative.
If I hadn't been gimped by the module so badly, or if the one problem character wasn't there, I would have been fine, I feel. I don't mind players really doing a lot of damage. That's their job, after all... but I am very not used to not getting a chance to play, even as a DM.
(c) if there are certain situations which are likely to trigger you (i.e., DMing a Paragon table), avoid them if you can.
It wasn't running Paragon that was the issue (Although I don't know. Maybe it is. I don't *think* it is. My Homegame Paragon Level games haven't been as horrible as this experience was). It was the hyper-optimized build that were the problem. Next time I run a paragon, I might not *have* a table like this, and these kinds of people will be playing in Heroics, also.
Not running for fear of optimization doesn't seem like an optimal solution.
(c) if there are certain situations which are likely to trigger you (i.e., DMing a Paragon table), avoid them if you can.
It wasn't running Paragon that was the issue (Although I don't know. Maybe it is. I don't *think* it is. My Homegame Paragon Level games haven't been as horrible as this experience was). It was the hyper-optimized build that were the problem. Next time I run a paragon, I might not *have* a table like this, and these kinds of people will be playing in Heroics, also.
Not running for fear of optimization doesn't seem like an optimal solution.
I guess what you really have to look at is if they are that "hyperoptimized" as you say, this is what they are looking for in a game, to crush their enemies and have their type of fun... if that doesn't float for your GM style then it's best to avoid it, if you can detach and just run the game, have the social interactions and go on forth you can still have fun.
We just played Corm 1-6 tonight and while we obliterated the combats (it was truly crushed, a wizard who was focused on getting a good alpha strike then controlling, my area burst sorcerer and a daggermaster rogue along with some more good damage dealers) we just had fun crushing combats quickly and getting to the truly fun parts of this fantastic Cormyr mod, I had more fun using all my contacts in cormyr from prior mods and roleplaying out the skill challenges than I've had in most combats.
Cormyr 1-1/1-2/1-3/1-7 and 1-6 spoilers
for example I ran into the library in suzail after defeating the first habinger, bust out my badge of temperance and the documentation showing I'm an authorized deputy in suzail (Corm 1-1 and 1-7 respectively) and convince with some diplomacy that I need the entire library staff to work for us and with us on our research, getting an "assist" on all the rolls for the knowledge checks, next I run over to visit the valewaters and karah family getting them to supply us with their own family records and history books to assist in the reasearch (Corm 1-2/1-3 and 1-7 respectively this time) etc, this is the stuff that helps make the setting live for me, being able to take past mods and have them help us based on our decisions, it was a load of fun
Sad, sad Entropy ...
Though I do believe that that Alpha Strike wizard played in the other mod that day.
Edit: To actually contribute to the thread, I've learned that it really helps to be able to have fun losing as a DM. When a monster flubs up an attack or skill check, ham it up with some humor (helps when the monsters are goblins or kobolds, but it can apply any time - zombie arms falling off, etc.) When a PC pulls out a Trump Card power (interrupts and the like) I almost can't help now giving the monster the Looney Toons face - that sad look on Wile E. Coyote's face when he realizes he's gone off the cliff - for that moment before the hammer drops and his best laid plans are thwarted.
Okay so I guess that's more about not losing your cool than handling when that happens. The best suggestion I could give beyond taking a Time Out, is to let the players know you're becoming frustrated and that the fight might be more fun for everyone if it was less one-sided. The conversation with the players can also help you understand their brand of fun, and if they just want to roflstomp the monsters and be Big Damn Heroes then you can try to adjust your attitude to facilitate that.
Well, your DM was a tool for letting you pull that off. :p
Sad, sad Entropy ...
Though I do believe that that Alpha Strike wizard played in the other mod that day.
And yeah that is how tired I was saturday, it was the other mod you played your wizard in. But the same held true, the cormyr fights were still trashed in due course and offered no real threat, the poor guy with the stun never got one of us with it even.
And a Tool, bah it was the most fun I had that day, other than making 40 attacks against your party in 2 rounds with that hydra.
If I hadn't been gimped by the module so badly, or if the one problem character wasn't there, I would have been fine, I feel. I don't mind players really doing a lot of damage. That's their job, after all... but I am very not used to not getting a chance to play, even as a DM.
Don't take the module being non-challenging personally. It happens, both because of how things are written and because of how the party is composed. When the two come together, it can be hard to deal.
But, dealing is our job. Ideally, we do what you did and take a short break and come back to finish the job in a way that is fun for all. Keep in mind that somewhere out there is a table this mod will TPK (I have yet to hear of a mod that has not TPKd a table).
Still, it is surprisingly hard to make a challenging adventure. Just picking some cool monsters won't cut it. You really have to examine encounters for how they will provide damage (if what you want is a threat). When a Paragon adventure doesn't do that, it is really hard to provide any threat to the PCs. If I look at most challenging P1 mods, I nod my head when I see the monsters used, the room setup... it all required work.
I've learned that it really helps to be able to have fun losing as a DM. When a monster flubs up an attack or skill check, ham it up with some humor (helps when the monsters are goblins or kobolds, but it can apply any time - zombie arms falling off, etc.) When a PC pulls out a Trump Card power (interrupts and the like) I almost can't help now giving the monster the Looney Toons face - that sad look on Wile E. Coyote's face when he realizes he's gone off the cliff - for that moment before the hammer drops and his best laid plans are thwarted.
Okay so I guess that's more about not losing your cool than handling when that happens. The best suggestion I could give beyond taking a Time Out, is to let the players know you're becoming frustrated and that the fight might be more fun for everyone if it was less one-sided. The conversation with the players can also help you understand their brand of fun, and if they just want to roflstomp the monsters and be Big Damn Heroes then you can try to adjust your attitude to facilitate that.
Both are excellent advice. It is sort of my default approach, and then I am pleasantly surprised if I challenge paragon players (which does happen... just ask the tables at GameStorm... they were calling me names...
)First and foremost, I want them to have fun. But, that is never at my expense. I try not to derive pleasure from "winning" but rather from a good run. A good run can be a challenge. It can also be a good story, or empowering them. When there is no tactical or combat challenge I try to switch to an RP challenge, trying to get them to RP that insane mastery they have over things primal/martial/arcane/whatever. I work on celebrating them, while having fun doing so. I use humor. And, if they look like they want a challenge, I might ask them if they want me to up it.
Also read the mod you are running ahead of time a lot of paragon mods the players will just walk all over you , however there are a few that have some interesting challenges. One of my favorites ( Although the DM is a horrible person and should be drug about back and put out of our the players misery ) is Core 1-14 What Storms May Come. The Combats are on wide open maps , which reduces the effectiveness of some of the zones your players may put down, and there is a very exciting ice slide fight that is a lot of fun.
Anyway , good luck with your paragon tables, and enjoy those few moments you make them sweat
( BTW the writer of Core 1-14 isn't really a horrible person, but he did beat up on our paragon characters quite a bit over the weekend at gamestorm)
I like surprise rounds. All that planning goes for naught when you're dazed/stunned/restrained, bloodied and 11 squares away from the also dazed/stunned/restrained leader.
Another reason that it is nice to have a Divine Oracle around.
Just like in all games, you're going to get some "bad beat" stories, just roll with the punches and next time you run the module, remember what happened and DME a few minor changes.
In the example quoted in the OP, I would have split the enemy group placing a few somewhere else on the map.
My current favourite "bad beat" story is in my latest MYRE... after spending time honing and polishing a solo encounter that had a large charging brute devil and a minion spawning trap... the PCs turn up, I fluff the initative roll, the devil gets immobilised and dazed, the trap get disrupted and this continues for every round following.
<sigh> The rotten players continue to thwart all attempts to free the solo, they used only "until the end of the next turn" powers, thereby circumventing the solo's +5 save and immobilised the devil, who only got to use its AoE "explosive" charge once... and then it fluffs the attack roll... all around a big bust!
The players loved it though... next time Penelope Pitstop... next time!
Party spot giants in next room
Party melee combatants rush in and attack one giant
Arcane caster and archer stay outside room and attack the other one and immobilize it.
Party wins initiative and concentrates on the already injured giant. Take it out.
Immobilized giant has ineffective ranged attack. Party proceed to kill it.
Party goes "hmm. that was easier than expected" and enters room.
GM sighs and lets them know that the real danger was a trap that triggers as soon as any arcane power is used in the room; and that the giants are most dangerous when charging, which they could not do.
Definitely "I'll get you next time Penelope Pitstop... next time!"
Running a scales of war mod at near-epic.
Party spot giants in next room
Party melee combatants rush in and attack one giant
Arcane caster and archer stay outside room and attack the other one and immobilize it.
Party wins initiative and concentrates on the already injured giant. Take it out.
Immobilized giant has ineffective ranged attack. Party proceed to kill it.
Party goes "hmm. that was easier than expected" and enters room.
GM sighs and lets them know that the real danger was a trap that triggers as soon as any arcane power is used in the room; and that the giants are most dangerous when charging, which they could not do.
Definitely "I'll get you next time Penelope Pitstop... next time!"
As one of the two melee combatants in that fight...guilty as charged.
That's frustrating. It's frustrating as a player to spend much of a combat in such a state (some combination of being stunned, dazed, immobilized, weakened against insubstantial creatures, fighting flying artillery without a meaningful ranged attack or the like), but at the least, there's a good chance you're going to walk away from the table with xp or gp for your character. A DM in the equivalent position doesn't even have that.
Worse, such classes often do little damage, creating situations where it's apparent to everyone that the combat is effectively over long before it actually is. A DM then has to either call a combat well before it's actually finished (and not let anyone else do anything cool) or suffer through an encounter in which he's well aware that he's not going to be anything fun himself.
Personally, I currently don't have much interest in DMing paragon adventures in a convention setting. With a table of friends, I at least know I'm going to get enjoyment on a social level. With the right group of strangers and the right module, you might get lucky and be able to derive enjoyment just from the roleplaying encounters. If, however, you have a module (and there are many) where the only enjoyment is going to be on the tactical combat level, it's very easy for the DM to have four hours of complete non-fun at paragon.
technically he can't see... and technically, he shouldn't be able to be precise with the blast to hit them... but the rules do allow for it, but my sense of "Fairness" started to scream at me
I understand where you're coming from. The 4e rules are only very loosely simulationist, and I know quite a few people who get hung up on the fact that 4e invisibility is a very different creature than invisibility in previous editions, but that's just a personal issue you'll have to deal with. Gone are the days when it was anything but rare for PCs to not know exactly what square each creature is in or to need to make checks to determine how precisely they could lay down a burst.
That being said, I have largely sworn off running paragon mods since then but, I have never really liked DMing anyway. When I play, I tend not to like being part of a too well-composed or optimized party.
There is an issue that certain classes (wizards and pacifist clerics, for example) are pretty much dedicated to the idea of making it so a creature is unable to take any meaningful actions.
That's frustrating. It's frustrating as a player to spend much of a combat in such a state (some combination of being stunned, dazed, immobilized, weakened against insubstantial creatures, fighting flying artillery without a meaningful ranged attack or the like), but at the least, there's a good chance you're going to walk away from the table with xp or gp for your character. A DM in the equivalent position doesn't even have that.
Worse, such classes often do little damage, creating situations where it's apparent to everyone that the combat is effectively over long before it actually is. A DM then has to either call a combat well before it's actually finished (and not let anyone else do anything cool) or suffer through an encounter in which he's well aware that he's not going to be anything fun himself.
The question is whether calling such fights and there by helping the characters employing such tactics and builds to be successful in completing the mod in a reasonable amount of time is enabling such builds and play. I have noticed more and more encounters with staggered arrivals of NPCs which helps them avoid and somewhat devalue the tactic of going first and loading up template based dailies and encounters with early action points.
I can have fun running a mod for players that just walk all over the encounters and crush the mod, as long as they are having fun I'm having fun.
I agree, so long as it's a group of players that I'll enjoy spending four hours with. That's not always a given at convention games.
At a recent convention game, I played at one of those thrown-together tables I think of as "it's either going to be a cakewalk or TPK"--four strikers (two archer rangers, a melee ranger and a rogue), a warlord and a fighter--with a module that was combat-focused and a DM who didn't seem to have a grasp of pretty basic tactics (e.g., flying artillery should not start the combat on the ground).
The low point for me had to be the player who thought is was acceptable to mock the creatures and essentially trash-talk the DM about how we were steamrolling the combat. That was decreasing my fun at the table and I was just playing; I can't imagine that it helped the DM (who was getting visibly frustrated at not being able to challenge the group) enjoy the experience.
Sadly, such players are not outside the norm, and are likely to be more common at conventions than smaller gamedays where social pressures are more meaningful.
[We just played Corm 1-6 tonight
War Story, sorry.
Played Corm 1-6. The second combat went 3 initiative passes. Not 3 rounds, 3 initiative passes. (Taclord: Reorient the Axis: Divine Oracle/Paladin: Prophecy of Doom, RRoT, AP: big-W power of some sort, Avenger/Ranger: 5 attack nova sequence.) That was the last combat of the module, as the DM steered us toward skill challange solutions for everything else.
Next module I played:Core 1-14. 3 of the same characters. Grindtastic TPK of misery.
Lessons I took away as a player trying to figure out how to DM these
- Before module starts, find out what the initiative situation is. Encounters will play very differently if the PCs always win initiative, or if they always lose it. And odds are you'll be in one of those two situations. (Monster Initiative outpaces most PC initiatives... but it only takes 1 or 2 PCs to invest for the whole party to win initiative)
- Not everyone wants a challenge. Some just want to beat up on monsters. That's usually ok... If they wanted a challenge, they probably won't bring a collection of net-decks in PC form.
- Assuming you need to provide a challenge
- If you have a "high nova" party (Warlords, Pitfighters, Rangers), assign your initiative rolls. Controllers get the highest rolls.
- If you have a lock down party (Wardens, controllers, pacificist clerics) ... dunno. Have not DMd enough of those parties. I'd guess brutes/skirmishers/DPS monsters should get the best initiative rolls
[We just played Corm 1-6 tonight
War Story, sorry.
Played Corm 1-6. The second combat went 3 initiative passes. Not 3 rounds, 3 initiative passes. (Taclord: Reorient the Axis: Divine Oracle/Paladin: Prophecy of Doom, RRoT, AP: big-W power of some sort, Avenger/Ranger: 5 attack nova sequence.) That was the last combat of the module, as the DM steered us toward skill challange solutions for everything else.
Next module I played:Core 1-14. 3 of the same characters. Grindtastic TPK of misery.
Lessons I took away as a player trying to figure out how to DM these
- Before module starts, find out what the initiative situation is. Encounters will play very differently if the PCs always win initiative, or if they always lose it. And odds are you'll be in one of those two situations. (Monster Initiative outpaces most PC initiatives... but it only takes 1 or 2 PCs to invest for the whole party to win initiative)
- Not everyone wants a challenge. Some just want to beat up on monsters. That's usually ok... If they wanted a challenge, they probably won't bring a collection of net-decks in PC form.
- Assuming you need to provide a challenge
- If you have a "high nova" party (Warlords, Pitfighters, Rangers), assign your initiative rolls. Controllers get the highest rolls.
- If you have a lock down party (Wardens, controllers, pacificist clerics) ... dunno. Have not DMd enough of those parties. I'd guess brutes/skirmishers/DPS monsters should get the best initiative rolls
I was the Taclord in question there. I think you missed the druid's move/miss in there, but that just makes it four PC actions, not three. I also wasn't in the CORE 1-14 game, so I'm going to take credit for the difference between the two.
Kilpatds didn't mention that the reason I only showed up with Reorient the Axis was because we were in an auto-daze zone. That Reorient the Axis shoved everyone out of the zone before it dazed them. I think I also tried to charge off an AP but missed. Such is life. On the bright side, I did manage to bloody the paladin. Matt James was surprised to find that my melee basic attack can target Reflex.