Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Kurald_Galain Mar 04, 2009 15:55:05	This is somewhat less relevant since Veteran's Armor got nerfed, but still. PHB page 226 states, "Each time you reach a milestone (see page 259), you gain one additional use of a magic item daily power. This benefit can be used to activate any magic item daily power that you have not already used this day." As a DM, I feel this should be interpreted that if you carry (e.g.) two Orbs of Inevitable Continuance, you still can't use both of them in the same day, because the above refers to a power you have not already used. It might be a different instance of the OoIC, but it's still the same item and the same power. Specifically, I find it cheesy that people want to carry multiple copies of one powerful once-per-day item in order to effectively use it once per encounter. Thoughts?
#2 kenobi65 Mar 04, 2009 16:38:52	Except that it's not the same item. It's two different copies of an item with the same name and description. IMO, it's no different from a dual-wielding ranger who has the same property on both of his swords. If the player wants to use both of his daily item uses (because odds are, with the way LFR modules are structured, you're likely to only effectively pass one milestone per adventure) on the same "item", go for it. The player has purchased (or spent found item slots) on two copies of the item; I don't see the fairness in penalizing that.
#3 Kurald_Galain Mar 05, 2009 3:49:12	IMO, it's no different from a dual-wielding ranger who has the same property on both of his swords. Abilities marked "daily" are very powerful (markedly moreso than "encounter" or "at-will" abilities), which is why they are restricted in their usage. Are you saying, in essence, that it's really okay for a "daily" ability to use as often as an "encounter" ability? If so, why do you think the distinction exists? The player has purchased (or spent found item slots) on two copies of the item; Are you aware that the cost to purchase a lower-level item is trivial? For instance, a level-10 character can easily buy a handful of level-2 items for pocket change. Are you okay with a paragon character who, between encounters, puts on one of his five suits of level-2 paragon armor to activate the power, and then puts on his +4 armor during the actual fight? And does this again after every encounter so that he can use his highest-level daily power as an encounter power? Is this "fair", is it fun for the other players, does it make sense? This doesn't work with veteran's any more since the item got errata'ed, but the principle holds for several other items.
#4 SYB Mar 05, 2009 8:53:19	It might be a reasonable house rule, but it has no place in an RPGA game where it definitely violates RAW. Also, consider your example carefully. Changing armor isn't a standard action. It takes a short rest. So, your back and forth swap takes two short rests. That could be rough if the adventure actually pushes the PCs along to the next encounter after the first short rest. Also, those 2nd level items are cheap for a reason. Usually, they have weaker daily powers than paragon tier items. So, for this to be broken, you have to find a daily item that is worth using between two short rests (remember, any until end of encounter daily power will end at at the end of the second short rest) and significantly alters the power level of the character. And, by doing all this, you give up the opportunity to use any other daily use powers mid-fight. -SYB
#5 kenobi65 Mar 05, 2009 9:26:53	Are you aware that the cost to purchase a lower-level item is trivial? For instance, a level-10 character can easily buy a handful of level-2 items for pocket change. Could you give a specific example of a daily power on a level 2 item that you think would be abusive, if used more than once, in the hands of a 10th-level character? Are you okay with a paragon character who, between encounters, puts on one of his five suits of level-2 paragon armor to activate the power, and then puts on his +4 armor during the actual fight? What do you mean by "level-2 paragon armor"?
#6 Kurald_Galain Mar 05, 2009 9:37:30	Before you answer this question, you should probably browse through the charop forum where people consider it a good idea to carry multiple sets of, say, veteran's armor (pre-nerf) or orbs of continuance; and you should note how most of this doesn't apply to RPGA yet because RPGA hasn't hit paragon levels yet. But it will. Could you give a specific example of a daily power on a level 2 item that you think would be abusive, if used more than once, in the hands of a 10th-level character? I mentioned one in the first post - the Orbs of Inevitable Continuance. That's level 3 rather than 2, but still pocket change for any paragon character. What do you mean by "level-2 paragon armor"? I meant veteran.
#7 kinevon Mar 05, 2009 9:45:37	1) What's a 2nd level Paragon item? If it is 2nd level, it is Heroic, not Paragon. Paragon, even for items, starts at 11th level, which is not trivial for a PC until Epic, I would suspect. At any level that an item's cost goes to "trivial", it is probable that the power, even a daily, is also going to be close to trivial in value. Let's contemplate +1 Dwarven Armor, which has a daily that, basically, gives someone who can wear chain, scale or plate a "free" healing surge. Nice, but that isn't that much, except during combat, when a set of +1 armor would be a detriment to a Paragon character, who should have +3 or better armor. With the +1 armor, he would be more likely to need that healing surge, and gives up a likely more useful/better daily power in its stead. And a set of +3 Dwarven Armor has the same daily, with better bonuses. While you get more daily item power uses at Paragon tier, that is only one more use, and you are likely to have more items with useful dailies at that tier, as well. As to carrying two of the same item, and using each one's daily power, that shouldn't be a big issue. It costs more gold and/or found item slots to have two of the same items. For the item's daily to be useful at one's level, it is going to take away from the PC somewhere else, like in significant amounts of gold and/or found item slots, or it would only be useful for a short time. As it is, you are planning on adding another penalty on top of the penalty the character already took to have access to two of the same items with daily powers. I would assume that you are also of the school that objects to the two-rod warlock anti-minion setup. Which, again, requires burning a fair amount of character resources to have available, for the rare occasions when it works...
#8 kinevon Mar 05, 2009 10:48:40	I mentioned one in the first post - the Orbs of Inevitable Continuance. That's level 3 rather than 2, but still pocket change for any paragon character. I looked at the power of the Orb of Continuance, and I think you are waaaay overestimating its worth. It extends a power that lasts two rounds to three rounds. Not much, really. A real waste, yet again, IMO, of the limited number of daily item power uses you get. Not even worth it at Epic, much less Paragon or Heroic. Maybe if you can't find or get an item with a better daily power... Multiple Power Jewels (level 5) might be worthwhile, but, even there, you are trading an item daily for a character encounter....
#9 Kurald_Galain Mar 05, 2009 16:42:23	At any level that an item's cost goes to "trivial", it is probable that the power, even a daily, is also going to be close to trivial in value. Hoo boy, that assumption is completely false. I would assume that you are also of the school that objects to the two-rod warlock anti-minion setup. Which, again, requires burning a fair amount of character resources to have available, for the rare occasions when it works... I am not of any "school" so kindly don't put words in my mouth. This "setup" is quite irrelevant to this thread, but it certainly does not require "a fair amount of resources". It's dirt cheap.
#10 Dragon9 Mar 05, 2009 23:10:54	Specifically, I find it cheesy that people want to carry multiple copies of one powerful once-per-day item in order to effectively use it once per encounter. Personally... I have yet to see any daily item power I considered really powerful. Many are useful. Many can be useful on more than one occasion so it would be nice to have more than copy of that item. It kind of turns you into a one trick pony. Even when i have seen people do such things, I haven't found it any more game breaking then certain racial/class/power synergies.
#11 kinevon Mar 06, 2009 2:07:21	Hoo boy, that assumption is completely false. I am not of any "school" so kindly don't put words in my mouth. This "setup" is quite irrelevant to this thread, but it certainly does not require "a fair amount of resources". It's dirt cheap. 1) What daily item power is worth using when the cost of the item is at the trivial level? The Orb listed is virtually worthless, even at low levels, IMO. Especially when weighed against the rarity of daily item power uses. 2 at heroic, 3 at paragon in your typical LFR module. 2) I was simply pointing out that there is a similarity in your stated attitude in this thread, nerfing something a character has bought by GM fiat instead of by the rules, to the same attitude evidenced in the anti-dual rod crew. Take it how you will. 3) Again, resources includes more things than money. Resources include the FACT that, at Paragon tier, you get 3 daily item power uses in a standard LFR module. And that counts the milestone use. To be honest, my 3rd level Fighter has one of the more useful low-level items I have seen, So useful, in fact, that I took it when it was offered, despite it not meeting my preferred criteria for magic items. That item is the Amulet of Resolution +1, which allows the wearer, as a daily power, a reroll of a failed saving throw. And that can be duplicated, as an at-will, by any cleric.