July 2009 Update Questions - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

July 2009 Update Questions

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
kinevon
Jul 03, 2009 8:31:31 Okay, this is going to be Battlerager specific, since that is the character that I have questions about.

First, the basics:

Battlerage Vigor:
1) What if you have a non-Fighter power that has the Invigorating keyword? I don't know of any off the top of my head, but isn't there a feat in MP that allows the addition of the Invigorating keyword to any martial encounter power? Which would allow a FIghter/Rogue MC with the power substiitution feats to get a Rogue Encounter as Invigorating. The same would apply for MCing into Ranger or Warlord...

2) Some of the math is still a bit odd, IMO.

Example: Dwarf BRV Fighter, 18 Con, Dwarf Stoneblood feat, Improved Vigor feat

Brash Strike: miss = 0, hit = 4 temps
Crushing Surge: miss = 7 temps, hit = 11

Is that correct?

To be honest, it makes missing with an Invigorating power better than hitting with a non-Invigorating power. I would think that the additions should be at the other end of the power, so that it adds when gaining temps from the Battlerage Vigor feature, without adding extra to the Invigorating power hit, so the numbers above become 0/7, and 7/11. Just my opinion, though.
#2
amysrevenge
Jul 03, 2009 11:45:03
To be honest, it makes missing with an Invigorating power better than hitting with a non-Invigorating power.

Only if you consider gaining temp HPs to be the only positive thing an attack will do. Theoretically, the hit with the non-Invigorating power will damage your enemy, while the miss with the Invigorating power will not... :P
#3
kinevon
Jul 05, 2009 5:22:51
Only if you consider gaining temp HPs to be the only positive thing an attack will do. Theoretically, the hit with the non-Invigorating power will damage your enemy, while the miss with the Invigorating power will not... :P

If I am going to miss either way, it makes a difference.

If I have a choice between attackng at +7 for 1d10+6 or +9 for 1d10+10, but the lower number gives me 7/11, while the second number gives me 0/4, and the enemy is at AC 27 (definitely exists, been there, done that), which way would you go?

Crushing Surge either crits (5%) or misses (95%); while Brash Strike can do a normal hit (10%), crit (5%) pr miss (85%), but lowers your defenses against that same target, whether you hit or miss, and gives yu less temps even if you hit, Having CA doesn't make much of a significant difference, either.

The odds strongly favor you missing in either case, so which way is more "beneficial" for you and the party? Reduced defenses, no temps, or normal defenses and at least some temps?

Show
That enemy which this character faced was in EAST1-4, if you are interested. My character was third level, so it couldn't even be considered playing up, really.
#4
Dragon9
Jul 05, 2009 7:56:57
2) Some of the math is still a bit odd, IMO.

Example: Dwarf BRV Fighter, 18 Con, Dwarf Stoneblood feat, Improved Vigor feat

Brash Strike: miss = 0, hit = 4 temps
Crushing Surge: miss = 7 temps, hit = 11

Is that correct?

No, the feats both give feat bonuses. So you'd only get the Stoneblood bonus since it's higher. So you numbers should be 6/10. Not a huge difference.
#5
bgibbons
Jul 05, 2009 13:01:15
To be honest, it makes missing with an Invigorating power better than hitting with a non-Invigorating power.

I'm not sure I see the problem here. I find most Invigorating powers underwhelming, so making their selection more beneficial strikes me as a good idea, and having Invigorating powers be best at giving temporary hps seems to me to be thematically appropriate.

Now, if you're saying that you think the BRV fighter would be stronger if there existed a feat that added this bonus to all melee/close attacks rather than just adding it to Invigorating powers, well, that's obviously true. Whether the BRV fighter is now sufficiently underpowered that it needs such a boost is, I suppose, a matter of opinion.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 kinevon Jul 03, 2009 8:31:31	Okay, this is going to be Battlerager specific, since that is the character that I have questions about. First, the basics: Battlerage Vigor: 1) What if you have a non-Fighter power that has the Invigorating keyword? I don't know of any off the top of my head, but isn't there a feat in MP that allows the addition of the Invigorating keyword to any martial encounter power? Which would allow a FIghter/Rogue MC with the power substiitution feats to get a Rogue Encounter as Invigorating. The same would apply for MCing into Ranger or Warlord... 2) Some of the math is still a bit odd, IMO. Example: Dwarf BRV Fighter, 18 Con, Dwarf Stoneblood feat, Improved Vigor feat Brash Strike: miss = 0, hit = 4 temps Crushing Surge: miss = 7 temps, hit = 11 Is that correct? To be honest, it makes missing with an Invigorating power better than hitting with a non-Invigorating power. I would think that the additions should be at the other end of the power, so that it adds when gaining temps from the Battlerage Vigor feature, without adding extra to the Invigorating power hit, so the numbers above become 0/7, and 7/11. Just my opinion, though.
#2 amysrevenge Jul 03, 2009 11:45:03	To be honest, it makes missing with an Invigorating power better than hitting with a non-Invigorating power. Only if you consider gaining temp HPs to be the only positive thing an attack will do. Theoretically, the hit with the non-Invigorating power will damage your enemy, while the miss with the Invigorating power will not... :P
#3 kinevon Jul 05, 2009 5:22:51	Only if you consider gaining temp HPs to be the only positive thing an attack will do. Theoretically, the hit with the non-Invigorating power will damage your enemy, while the miss with the Invigorating power will not... :P If I am going to miss either way, it makes a difference. If I have a choice between attackng at +7 for 1d10+6 or +9 for 1d10+10, but the lower number gives me 7/11, while the second number gives me 0/4, and the enemy is at AC 27 (definitely exists, been there, done that), which way would you go? Crushing Surge either crits (5%) or misses (95%); while Brash Strike can do a normal hit (10%), crit (5%) pr miss (85%), but lowers your defenses against that same target, whether you hit or miss, and gives yu less temps even if you hit, Having CA doesn't make much of a significant difference, either. The odds strongly favor you missing in either case, so which way is more "beneficial" for you and the party? Reduced defenses, no temps, or normal defenses and at least some temps? Show That enemy which this character faced was in EAST1-4, if you are interested. My character was third level, so it couldn't even be considered playing up, really.
#4 Dragon9 Jul 05, 2009 7:56:57	2) Some of the math is still a bit odd, IMO. Example: Dwarf BRV Fighter, 18 Con, Dwarf Stoneblood feat, Improved Vigor feat Brash Strike: miss = 0, hit = 4 temps Crushing Surge: miss = 7 temps, hit = 11 Is that correct? No, the feats both give feat bonuses. So you'd only get the Stoneblood bonus since it's higher. So you numbers should be 6/10. Not a huge difference.
#5 bgibbons Jul 05, 2009 13:01:15	To be honest, it makes missing with an Invigorating power better than hitting with a non-Invigorating power. I'm not sure I see the problem here. I find most Invigorating powers underwhelming, so making their selection more beneficial strikes me as a good idea, and having Invigorating powers be best at giving temporary hps seems to me to be thematically appropriate. Now, if you're saying that you think the BRV fighter would be stronger if there existed a feat that added this bonus to all melee/close attacks rather than just adding it to Invigorating powers, well, that's obviously true. Whether the BRV fighter is now sufficiently underpowered that it needs such a boost is, I suppose, a matter of opinion.