Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 feyberry Jan 16, 2009 15:40:48	Is it against the RPGA rules to require voice chat for an online event?
#2 KarmaInferno Jan 16, 2009 15:52:53	Why would it be? As long as you aren't asking the attendees to do anything illegal or against the RPGA ethics guidelines, go nuts. The RPGA does not dictate how you run your gaming event. -karma
#3 feyberry Jan 16, 2009 15:56:13	Why would it be? As long as you aren't asking the attendees to do anything illegal or against the RPGA ethics guidelines, go nuts. The RPGA does not dictate how you run your gaming event. Because it's discriminating against players that are either unable or unwilling to utilize voice chat.
#4 KarmaInferno Jan 16, 2009 16:05:23	"Discrimination" implies that the affected folks have some inherent 'right' to demand non-voice-based communications. No such right exists, either in the RPGA rules or indeed many national discrimination laws. If they don't want to use voice chat, they can just choose not to sign up. If I host a face-to-face game day and require a entry fee to attend, am I "discriminating" against those who don't want to pay? No, I'm just setting a requirement to attend. If players don't want to meet those requirements, they are free to go elsewhere. Now, if you were making restrictions based on race, gender, or the like, THAT would be discrimination. Requiring voice chat isn't even remotely close. -karma
#5 feyberry Jan 16, 2009 16:13:49	I feel it is and it should be discouraged from being allowed.
#6 KarmaInferno Jan 16, 2009 16:43:54	You are free to feel however you like. I seriously doubt your feelings will affect the the rules on what is or is not allowed for RPGA events, however. -karma
#7 feyberry Jan 16, 2009 16:44:44	I don't care what you think. I'll petition for it to be added to the rules.
#8 KarmaInferno Jan 16, 2009 16:52:22	Okay. Have fun. I only posted to be helpful and answer your question. Which I did. The current RPGA rules don't forbid requiring voice chat. That you did not like the answer, well, petition away. I suspect that you should prepare for disappointment, though. Good day to you. -karma
#9 feyberry Jan 16, 2009 16:54:32	Once again, I don't care what you think. Your opinion doesn't matter since you're not part of the RPGA that makes the rules.
#10 redknightofket Jan 16, 2009 16:57:37	This seems like a rather silly thing to petition. If you are putting those kinds of restrictions in place for online games, you might as well not allow them. Like any other game, the organizer is fit to put in place whatever restrictions he or she may choose, except where considered discriminatory by law. Technological limitations seem perfectly reasonable.
#11 redknightofket Jan 16, 2009 16:59:55	Once again, I don't care what you think. Your opinion doesn't matter since you're not part of the RPGA that makes the rules. He's part of the RPGA. That means he can voice his opinion. He's not simply sending you a message, he is stating his view on a PUBLIC message board. Feel free to not care, but being snippy is only going to mean people aren't going to help you in the future. And as a frequent lurker/periodic poster, I have seen KarmaInferno always provide his views and advice without being snippy about it. He's got a lot more credibility around here than you do, and yours is only shrinking by attacking others.
#12 feyberry Jan 16, 2009 17:00:29	Would it be acceptable to force everyone to use a laptop at a convention game? I don't think so. Forcing everyone to use voice chat is the same.
#13 redknightofket Jan 16, 2009 17:01:57	Would it be acceptable to force everyone to use a laptop at a convention game? I don't think so. Forcing everyone to use voice chat is the same. Then go play with someone else. If the rules are laptop only, as much as that seems a little harsh, it is the organizer's call. They can deal with the consequences of low attendance and higher electricity costs.
#14 KarmaInferno Jan 16, 2009 17:04:24	Well, you're continuing to respond, so it seems you care somewhat. If you didn't want opinions, why post to a public message board? Why not e-mail the RPGA admins directly with your concerns? As an aside, being rude and confrontational right off the bat to a complete stranger who was merely trying to help, isn't likely to score points with the RPGA rule-makers either, and I know a number of those folks read this board. In any case, it appears you had your mind made up before you even posted your original question. You don't seem to want to hear anything except someone agreeing with you, so further discussion seems pointless I wish you luck in your quest, even if I don't think you'll achieve anything. I'm out. -karma
#15 feyberry Jan 16, 2009 17:11:36	I specifically said I don't care about your opinion Karma. I posted for a response from an official member of the RPGA or someone that had a link to a rule about it. I'm pretty sure that requiring everyone in a session to have a laptop and use it for whatever reason is against the rules. Requiring voice chat is no different.
#16 redknightofket Jan 16, 2009 17:19:06	Here is the link for the RPGA downloads, including the RPGA Guidelines, and the CCG. Feel free to peruse those documents, but I'm sure that Karma is right: there isn't anything that states it is against the rules to require voice chat. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=rpga/downloads LIke I said before, if you don't like people having that restriction, play with someone else. It isn't that complicated.
#17 WolfStar76 Jan 16, 2009 17:21:01	[VCL] This thread is starting to drift off-topic, I request we try to keep it in line with the original question. If you're going to ask the advice of others, it is incredibly bad form to then tell those anwering you that you don't care for their advice or opinions. [/VCL] That said, what you've been told is correct. There are no rules against an organizer running their game - online or off, in whatever fashion they see fit - especially if they advertise the "conditions" for their game beforehand. In your hypothetical example of a convention requiring a laptop to play - that actually WOULD be fair, so long as it were stated at the time players sign up/buy their tickets. However, just as others in this thread are entitled to their opinions, you too are entitled to yours. If you'd like to make a suggestion as to what you feel is a necessary change in the rules, I'd suggest you contact customer service at http://wizards.custhelp.com. [EDIT] Red Knight is right about his link to the downloads section. All the rules can be found there.
#18 feyberry Jan 16, 2009 17:25:57	I wasn't asking for advice however. I was asking for an actual rule or link. I still think the laptop requirement is against the rules. It's an unreasonable requirement.
#19 WolfStar76 Jan 16, 2009 17:33:41	I wasn't asking for advice however. I was asking for an actual rule or link. I still think the laptop requirement is against the rules. It's an unreasonable requirement. You're welcome to read the rules which have been provided for you, and I'll be happy to discuss any passage which you feel prohibits people for setting the conditions of their games. Until then, you're only stating an opinion the same as we have. We've read the rules, and the people posting here are well versed in those rules. If you want a more official answer than that, I will again point you to customer service: http://wizards.custhelp.com
#20 feyberry Jan 16, 2009 17:38:09	Requiring a laptop or anything beyond absolutely necessary materials takes away the "fair and consistent" part of the description of the rules.
#21 WolfStar76 Jan 16, 2009 17:39:21	If the requirements are posted in advance, that's fair. If the organizer/group applies that rule equally to all players, that's consistent.
#22 feyberry Jan 16, 2009 17:44:07	It's not fair, nor is it consistent. There should be a very specific list of what's allowed to be required.
#23 WolfStar76 Jan 16, 2009 17:46:20	It's not fair, nor is it consistent. There should be a very specific list of what's allowed to be required. Then we must agree to disagree.
#24 feyberry Jan 16, 2009 17:55:50	Without a specific list, it opens it up to abuse, like requiring voice chat, which is not fair, and discriminates against the disabled. It could also be abused, by requiring each person to buy drinks for the DM. And there will be people that do it and there will be people that abide by those ridiculous requirements. There needs to be a specific list of what's allowed to be required beyond necessary materials. Anything that discriminates shouldn't be allowed. Actually, that rules page doesn't even state anything about discrimination not being allowed, nor does it have any ethics guidelines. Why aren't they in the rules too?
#25 redknightofket Jan 16, 2009 18:01:44	Should a convention never be held in a location that is up a set of stairs, and inaccessible by wheelchair? While this is unfortunate, there is nothing illegal about that type of event set-up. And if you really want to get picky about being restrictive, then have it go back to no online play, as it discriminates against those who do not have a high speed internet connection, or those with no internet access at all. This will be my last word on this: you seem to be entrenched in your position, despite the fact that it is now 3 to 1 against. Do as Wolfstar says, and send in your suggestions to Customer Service.
#26 telvin3d Jan 16, 2009 18:03:05	Requiring a laptop or anything beyond absolutely necessary materials takes away the "fair and consistent" part of the description of the rules. So what is "absolutely necessary"? If a DM is running an online event, especially a live one, he or she may very well decide that voice chat is absolutely necessary to the smooth and timely running of the game. In a live game, are miniatures necessary? How about your own copy of the books? how about your own set of dice? I've seen people play without all of these. How about the advertised table fee? If laptops for each player could conceivably make the game run better, a DM could require that as long as they are clear about it when the game is organized. The laptop-at-the-table requirement is a straw-man argument. As far as I know, there are no player utilities that are usable at a live game. Making up random scenarios and then asking people to take a stance is pointless. I'm sure you could make up all sorts of nonsensical 'requirements' that some DM could set that would not violate the rules. Yet, none of these are a problem because no one is doing these things.
#27 kenobi65 Jan 16, 2009 18:07:09	Just to note: you're looking for an official RPGA POV on this, which would need to come from Chris Tulach or Ian Richards. While both of them do post on these boards from time to time, they aren't regular posters here. As WolfStar suggests, the way to take your complaint through official channels would be through Customer Service. As the others have already noted, there isn't anything in RPGA rules for online play (or any other venue, for that matter) that sets up a requirement, or lack thereof, for certain technologies or access. It comes down to this: if there's a requirement to participate in a certain event that you can't (or choose not to) meet, then choose not to participate in that event. It's really not any different from an event being offered in a different city from you, when you don't have a way to get to that city (or choose not to travel).
#28 feyberry Jan 16, 2009 18:16:02	Should a convention never be held in a location that is up a set of stairs, and inaccessible by wheelchair? While this is unfortunate, there is nothing illegal about that type of event set-up. It probably is illegal if it's a public event. And if you really want to get picky about being restrictive, then have it go back to no online play, as it discriminates against those who do not have a high speed internet connection, or those with no internet access at all. Online play actually makes gaming via the RPGA more viable since it increases the number of players and DM's available at any time. You're not required to wait for an event to just happen in your area. So what is "absolutely necessary"? If a DM is running an online event, especially a live one, he or she may very well decide that voice chat is absolutely necessary to the smooth and timely running of the game. Voice chat isn't required. People ran games online using nothing but irc for years before broadband became widespread enough to allow the use of voice chat. In a live game, are miniatures necessary? How about your own copy of the books? how about your own set of dice? I've seen people play without all of these. How about the advertised table fee? If laptops for each player could conceivably make the game run better, a DM could require that as long as they are clear about it when the game is organized. Books and dice are already covered by the rules. You're required to have them. "Visible and reliable materials to maintain, record, and adjudicate game play appropriate for the game system and/or campaign in which he or she is participating. This usually includes, but is not limited to, the proper dice, current required rulebooks, supplementary rules material specific to his or her character, an appropriate character sheet, a miniature or token representing the character, and pen or pencil." The laptop-at-the-table requirement is a straw-man argument. As far as I know, there are no player utilities that are usable at a live game. Making up random scenarios and then asking people to take a stance is pointless. I'm sure you could make up all sorts of nonsensical 'requirements' that some DM could set that would not violate the rules. Yet, none of these are a problem because no one is doing these things. It's not a strawman. Anything usable online is usable on a laptop at the table.
#29 kenobi65 Jan 16, 2009 18:21:02	Online play actually makes gaming via the RPGA more viable since it increases the number of players and DM's available at any time. You're not required to wait for an event to just happen in your area. With offline play, you're not required to wait for an event to just happen in your area, either -- you can set up an event where you want, when you want. If you're not happy with people setting up online games with voice-based programs, what's preventing you from organizing your own event using a text-based chat program? Also, AFAIK, an awful lot of the online LFR play that's organized on the Online Game Day Yahoo group is still done without voice (mostly on OpenRPG).
#30 feyberry Jan 16, 2009 18:35:56	You are required to play online if you live too far from anyone else that plays or handles events. There needs to be stricter rules one what DM's are allowed to require and voice chat for online play should be one that is definitely not allowed.
#31 howie23 Jan 16, 2009 20:12:46	You are required to play online if you live too far from anyone else that plays or handles events. There needs to be stricter rules one what DM's are allowed to require and voice chat for online play should be one that is definitely not allowed. I'm not an RPGA official, either, so you probably don't care about my opinion either. There are two different parts to the issue at hand. The first is what the RPGA rules are and the other has to do with discrimination based upon protected classes. The RPGA rules allow the Sr. DM to determine the logistics of the event. That includes the venue, what the tables are like, whether chairs are provided, etc. If that is done online, that includes the software being used, including whether a specific voice program is required. If the event is sanctioned as a homeplay event, the DM has complete control over who gets to play, as well. If the event is a public event (retail, gameday, or convention), the DM is not permitted to deny an RPGA player in good standing from playing. Common sense, though, tells us that that a limit to the space, DM availability, etc., can limit how many play. Requiring a voice program is effectively the same as requiring a particular software platform such as OpenRPG, that you show up at an address at a given time, etc. Saying that someone cannot require voice to play in a particular game is akin to saying that they cannot require that you go the game store and show up for a given game. This just doesn't make sense outside of the scope of disability. Disability protections can raise some interesting aspects to this. I'm not up on all of this, but I believe that the entity required to provide accommodation for disabilities under the ADA is the provider of public accommodation; in the case of a games convention, that would be the convention organizer, not RPGA. In the case of an online game, if the protection existed, it would fall on the DM, not RPGA (I think). However, whatever such protections do exist, they only exist in the actual case of the disability, not the hypothetical case or because someone lives in a remote location. For the sake of discussion, let's say that someone was mute and could not speak, and someone else doesn't have a microphone attached to his computer. If there was a requirement under ADA that accommodation be extended to the mute, it would not also extend to the guy without the microphone. Anyone interested might check out the lawsuit Hooks v. Okbridge, Inc., in particular the brief filed by the Department of Justice. It wasn't addressed in the decision made in the case, but it it has an important place w/respect to legal discussions on the matter and how the internet fits in. David - not a lawyer, etc.
#32 kinevon Jan 17, 2009 2:59:33	"Visible and reliable materials to maintain, record, and adjudicate game play appropriate for the game system and/or campaign in which he or she is participating. This usually includes, but is not limited to, the proper dice, current required rulebooks, supplementary rules material specific to his or her character, an appropriate character sheet, a miniature or token representing the character, and pen or pencil." By your own quote, it is up to the GM as to what is required. For some online GMs, voice chat is part of what they consider a requirement to "adjudicate game play" that is "appropriate for the game system and/or campaign in which he or she is participating." For on line play, along with the VTT being used for the actual game basics, the GM can also decide to use X method for other communications. Now, if you want to play an online game, and have some actual disability that makes it impossible or extremely difficult to use some sort of voice chat software, whether it is being mute or deaf, or having extreme laryngitis, you ALWAYS have the option of contacting the GM before the online game, explaining the situation in a civil (CIVIL!!!) fashion, and asking if there was a way to do the game with the "voice chat" option or in a way that is more friendly to your situation. I know that the main reason that the GMs on the RPGA_Group board use a voice chat as part of the game is because they feel that it will speed up the online play, and that at least one of the Gms doesn't use one. And the rest sound like they are open enough to be flexible if, for some reason, one of the players cannot use voice chat, whether it is because of a physical or technological reason. Is it against the RPGA rules to require voice chat for an online event? To answer your original question, no, it is not against the rules to require voice chat for an online event. RPGA rules for online events are very general, they don't even require the GM to even use a real VTT. If you find the right group, you could actually still use an IRC channel for it, as long as it is only open to the actual GM and players in the game. Or setup a Yahoo group, with membership by invitation only, and have it just be for Group X playing module Z, as it meets the minimum requirements for the online game.
#33 swiftbrook Jan 17, 2009 7:05:02	I am a venteran of Online play. Most of my Living Greyhawk experience was online because I live so far from an organized group and I don't have the time to organize one myself. In all those games, I believe there was only one game that required voice as a pre-requisite. Most of the time we were just scrambling for players, then playing with voice and texting to those that didn't. Almost all the issue we had were with microphones. A player could set up the voice software and listen in but not have a mic to talk with. I don't think it is unreasonable to require that someone has voice software to listen in and then text in their comments/actions/etc. The whole reason for voice software is simple. Time! A typical 4 hour LG game slot would take 7 to 10 hours online without voice. The players understood that and made time accordingly. The typical 4 hour LG game slot online game with voice would take about 4 hours. That is a huge difference. -Swiftbrook
#34 saint_matthew Jan 18, 2009 12:09:10	more to the point Voice Chat actually adds to the game rather then takes away from it, but if you don't like it (& by it, i mean downloading a voice chat program) feel free to sign on to another RPGA online game instead. Very few use voice chat. ;) -M
#35 ORC_Yawgmoth Jan 19, 2009 18:32:50	I've removed content from this thread per the Code of Conduct, which can be found here. Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
#36 feyberry Feb 09, 2009 18:29:56	more to the point Voice Chat actually adds to the game rather then takes away from it, but if you don't like it (& by it, i mean downloading a voice chat program) feel free to sign on to another RPGA online game instead. Very few use voice chat. ;) -M Yeah, whatever. Pretty much every damn game scheduled at MapTool requires the use of voice chat. It takes away from the event, because it LIMITS the people that can play. Thus that takes away the fairness and consistent nature of running an online event. Voice chat needs to be banned from Online RPGA events so as not to discriminate against anyone.
#37 JohnduBois Feb 09, 2009 20:07:30	Yeah, whatever. Pretty much every damn game scheduled at MapTool requires the use of voice chat. It takes away from the event, because it LIMITS the people that can play. Thus that takes away the fairness and consistent nature of running an online event. Voice chat needs to be banned from Online RPGA events so as not to discriminate against anyone. I strongly disagree. Voice chat is the only way I can DM a game online in a reasonable amount of time, and is much preferred for me playing as well due to the speed at which it can be done compared to text-only. Banning voice chat because not all players have access would be like banning Dragon Magazine or Martial Power because not all players can afford it. It's an *option*, not a requirement.
#38 howie23 Feb 09, 2009 20:09:03	Voice chat needs to be banned from Online RPGA events so as not to discriminate against anyone. If you think your position actually has merit rather than merely complaining about your personal situation, consider placing a well reasoned request in one of the stickies at the top of this group; if that is being paid attention to, it will make it's way into the General Rules revision due out in Spring. Otherwise, consider using OpenRPG (blackstar server) rather than Maptools to play; a good number of the games are VOIP-free there; in fact many of the must-have-VOIP types seem to have migrated to MapTools. David
#39 telvin3d Feb 09, 2009 21:19:37	Also, refusing to use voice is a choice. If you have a computer that can run the map software, you can run the audio. Even if you don't already have a microphone built in, you can get cheap ones for $5. If you want to be really nuts about it, many sound cards and some voip programs allow you to alter your voice before it gets sent. So for whatever reason you are refusing to use voice chat. That is your option. If you want to dictate the terms of the game, run one yourself. Otherwise suck it up princess.
#40 pedr Feb 10, 2009 6:24:52	Also, refusing to use voice is a choice. If you have a computer that can run the map software, you can run the audio. Even if you don't already have a microphone built in, you can get cheap ones for $5. If you want to be really nuts about it, many sound cards and some voip programs allow you to alter your voice before it gets sent. So for whatever reason you are refusing to use voice chat. That is your option. If you want to dictate the terms of the game, run one yourself. Otherwise suck it up princess. It is worth noting that this isn't true. People who are deaf or dumb cannot use voice-chat, or not with any great utility. Apart from the social utility of making reasonable adjustments for those with disabilities, many other people may find that using audio is inappropriate in their play-location, perhaps because they want to play while someone else watches the tv in the same room, or while a child is sleeping, or for other reasons. I don't agree with the OP, primarily as he puts his case far too strongly and implies that requiring voice-chat is absolutely wrong, when in fact it has significant game-play advantages. But just because the requirement is not 'absolutely wrong' does not mean that it isn't problematic in some circumstances, and those organising games should probably be open to considering alternatives if faced with players who are genuinely unable to make use of the technology. To address the OP's point directly, of course even the most significant requirements relating to disability discrimination only require 'reasonable' accommodation. An accommodation that turns a five-hour activity into an eight-hour one does not strike me as reasonable, so even if it were possible to argue that an RPGA GM was offering a good or service such that various jurisdictions' disability protection laws were engaged - an argument I find very difficult to accept - I do not believe that the result would be as favourable as the OP might like. In brief? Organisers should realise that some people have reasons for being unable to use certain technology and should endeavour to find ways to allow them to play; players should not expect that someone else organising a game will be able or willing to accommodate their personal characteristics. A solution? The OP can organise his own groups of people who only play via text - if he's the organiser, he can find a GM who does not use (or is willing not to use) voice-chat, and start from there. There are plenty of players willing to play online.
#41 icedcrow Feb 10, 2009 9:35:29	An online DM can absolutely choose to require voice chat if they so wish. I do not require it for my games but would not be opposed to a DM that does. When it comes to online gaming, a DM pretty much can determine who pulls up at the virtual gaming table. I would advise you to form your own group where you can adhere to your own set of guildlines and find people of like mind.
#42 WolfStar76 Feb 10, 2009 10:44:23	It's been clearly stated (multiple times now) what the current RPGA rules do and don't allow for. An organizer (senior GM) can set fair (applied to everyone) and reasonable (must have a mic, must have a convention badge, must have a ticket to the game) restrictions on their games. As has been said - you're more than welcome to submit feedback to customer service (http://custhelp.wizards.com) if you feel that this should be changed. In the meantime I'm going to close this thread as you're apparently unhappy with the answers you've asked for, and I highly doubt that you're likely to become any happier no matter how many times you get the same answer.
#43 ORC_Wyvern Feb 10, 2009 10:46:14	This thread has been closed by VCL request. If you have any questions, please contact: Customer Service