Question about trouble player - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Question about trouble player

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
merdok
Nov 29, 2008 19:06:09 I am GMing a LFR game with a group of players who have played Living Greyhawk all through 3.5 I am learning to DM with the LFR games as well (ie: they are willing to work with me when i mess up ) Up untill now they have been messing with me by pick pocketing nobles and such because the rule seems to be that you cant give any gold or items (magic or otherwhise) not mentioned in the module. They cant negotiate with quest givers for more gold or anything like that.

Unless I am missing something I havent seen anything in the rules that prohibits this. Am I right or wrong ?
Can I
actually give them a usefull or sellable art item or even a magic item on a sucessfull pickpocket? (yes i know it has to be small in size)

alow them to haggle for more gold for a quest reward? (maybe using skill checks with a hard dc for the level)

and things like that?

Any help or advice would be apreciated

Thanks
Michael
#2
ibixat
Nov 29, 2008 21:18:35 I would argue yes and no.

If you steal an item during an adventure it can be used during that adventure, at the end of the mod the only things that can carry over from your character are the bundles and gold awards, you don't really have much leeway to make them bigger.

One example though is say you steal a healing potion from an evil shopkeeper during a mod, you could use it during the mod but unless you take the potion option at the end you can't keep it.

You COULD possibly allow negotiations to allow the party to get some consumables that would then be forfeit at the end of the mod if not used, like a healing potion, rations, some sunrods etc.
#3
merdok
Nov 29, 2008 21:46:00 Oh yes I am well aware of the ability for them to keep anything till the end of the mod but it not cary over. I was talking more about things they can keep in the long term.
Things such as maybe mundane weapons . Maybe a simple dagger or they get . Well today one guy pickpocketed a halfling NPC and suceeded with a 25 . So i gave him a magical ball of rubber that seems to bounce forever. (a supper bouncie ball like the ones you get out of the little vending machines) and alowed him to keep but I also said it has the same restrictions as Prestidgitation as far as its usefullness goes. (cant be used to harm or affect other creatures)

The problem is I am having to do it alot. Not that I mind to much but it gets harder and harder to think up little useless things to give them . (with this new idea that has been put fourth using a d20 role to figure out weather or not they get something usless or usefull for the mod only . 1-10 usless 11-20 usefull with the number deciding how good the item is.
#4
kenobi65
Nov 29, 2008 23:12:04 Fundamentally...you can't give the PCs any materially useful items that aren't in the module, and aren't listed as rewards that the PCs can come out of the module with.

Little silly things like the rubber ball could be OK, but if the PC tries to start using those things to gain advantages (either in combat, or in roleplaying / skill encounters), then that's too much.
#5
Keith53
Nov 29, 2008 23:34:04 Adding more rewards/treasure to an LFR adventure is not something a DM can do. Trying to circumvent the treasure limit is a problem. Now, if you are talking about stealing something mundane (no resale value) and relatively inexpensive, I would not fret about it. Otherwise, you have a much different game called cops and robbers.

Speaking of cops, you mentioned nobles. Depending upon city/state, the region may have a competent city watch/guard and legal system. Be sure to consider that they might be spotted, arrested and fined or kicked out of the city. Some locales won't care much so it depends upon region.

If the region is rather wild, say like Dragon Coast, do they have a local thieves guild and what do they think about amatuers operating in their territory?

What is happening is your players are abusing you and continue to stretch the envelope of what you let them get away with, much like children. You need to establish firm boundaries and stick to it. If needed, they find empty pockets. If the law is loose, then what stops local pick pockets from robbing the PCs blind? I don't advocate a general war of stealing from each other, but an object lesson might be useful. The best solution may be to just talk it over with them as to why this is not a good idea.

Keith
#6
merdok
Nov 30, 2008 2:11:37 hahaha ahhh its a minor anoyance I was just asking to make sure that i couldnt give them anything particularly usefull .

On them using the little items for any real advantage...I make it clear when i give any item that might be helpfull (such as the bounce ball) that it will not under any circumstances to help them. even if it makes sence . They know these rules (well the 3.5 virsion witch in this respect i belive is just the same) . They just like to test me. Its something Id do to them if they where DMing too.

They have been caught once or twice (failed a skill challenge once ) but normally they are good about making sure they are out of sight. And they have found plenty of empty pockets.

Like I say I was only asking about the rules because it would make it more fun if they could pull a jewled amulet that they could sell instead of a wodden singet ring or "Dwarven Ale A Brewers Guide" book .(witch they did try to sell but it was outed as a knockoff that creates a poisonus brew witch lets of a deadly gas killing the brewer.

I have more trouble with people speaking out of turn then I do with the more experianced people pickpocketing just to screw with me. They dont do it to often truth be told.
#7
Madfox11
Dec 01, 2008 4:53:12 If you and the other players at the table don't mind these random sprees of theft, you could of course move gold and items from the regular encounters to these. Similarly, the quest givers first offer could be half of what the adventure states, giving your players the satisfaction to get it higher through negotiations. Be careful with this tactic though, since not everybody likes to spend time on things not related to adventures, and you do not want your players to end up with less treasure because they suddenly behave ;)
#8
merdok
Dec 01, 2008 13:21:46 Hahaha thats a good idea for my group! thank you for that. I see this as a trial by fire for me. because I know they dont behave and try to test me. Figure ill be better for it as a DM by making me make all these tiny little rules rullings. such as

Instead of subduing the bugs that they had to catch they jumped on there backs and littlerly made nature checks to ride them back into the area they where suposed to go.

But they are also the types to learn the rules really well and if they think they are being cheated (such as only 25 gold instead of the 50 that they have been getting) They wont just take it at face value like that they will just ask me out of character(Because they know its not normal practice to alow them to haggle for the price) they wouldnt get anything out of that really.
#9
RyndarLocke
Dec 01, 2008 18:55:12
I am GMing a LFR game with a group of players who have played Living Greyhawk all through 3.5 I am learning to DM with the LFR games as well (ie: they are willing to work with me when i mess up ) Up untill now they have been messing with me by pick pocketing nobles and such because the rule seems to be that you cant give any gold or items (magic or otherwhise) not mentioned in the module. They cant negotiate with quest givers for more gold or anything like that.

Unless I am missing something I havent seen anything in the rules that prohibits this. Am I right or wrong ?
Can I
actually give them a usefull or sellable art item or even a magic item on a sucessfull pickpocket? (yes i know it has to be small in size)

alow them to haggle for more gold for a quest reward? (maybe using skill checks with a hard dc for the level)

and things like that?

Any help or advice would be apreciated

Thanks
Michael

You can award more gold. I'd do it sparingly and small amounts however.
#10
_Mithreinmaethor_
Dec 01, 2008 20:05:15
You can award more gold. I'd do it sparingly and small amounts however.

A character can not take away more gold from the module than what is allowed. Just as they can not take mundane items found either.
#11
kenobi65
Dec 01, 2008 20:20:35
A character can not take away more gold from the module than what is allowed. Just as they can not take mundane items found either.

Exactly. If the maximum gold award for the module is 75 gp per PC, you can't give them more than that. DM Empowerment could be used to change how they got that gold, but it can't be used to increase the awards.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 merdok Nov 29, 2008 19:06:09	I am GMing a LFR game with a group of players who have played Living Greyhawk all through 3.5 I am learning to DM with the LFR games as well (ie: they are willing to work with me when i mess up ) Up untill now they have been messing with me by pick pocketing nobles and such because the rule seems to be that you cant give any gold or items (magic or otherwhise) not mentioned in the module. They cant negotiate with quest givers for more gold or anything like that. Unless I am missing something I havent seen anything in the rules that prohibits this. Am I right or wrong ? Can I actually give them a usefull or sellable art item or even a magic item on a sucessfull pickpocket? (yes i know it has to be small in size) alow them to haggle for more gold for a quest reward? (maybe using skill checks with a hard dc for the level) and things like that? Any help or advice would be apreciated Thanks Michael
#2 ibixat Nov 29, 2008 21:18:35	I would argue yes and no. If you steal an item during an adventure it can be used during that adventure, at the end of the mod the only things that can carry over from your character are the bundles and gold awards, you don't really have much leeway to make them bigger. One example though is say you steal a healing potion from an evil shopkeeper during a mod, you could use it during the mod but unless you take the potion option at the end you can't keep it. You COULD possibly allow negotiations to allow the party to get some consumables that would then be forfeit at the end of the mod if not used, like a healing potion, rations, some sunrods etc.
#3 merdok Nov 29, 2008 21:46:00	Oh yes I am well aware of the ability for them to keep anything till the end of the mod but it not cary over. I was talking more about things they can keep in the long term. Things such as maybe mundane weapons . Maybe a simple dagger or they get . Well today one guy pickpocketed a halfling NPC and suceeded with a 25 . So i gave him a magical ball of rubber that seems to bounce forever. (a supper bouncie ball like the ones you get out of the little vending machines) and alowed him to keep but I also said it has the same restrictions as Prestidgitation as far as its usefullness goes. (cant be used to harm or affect other creatures) The problem is I am having to do it alot. Not that I mind to much but it gets harder and harder to think up little useless things to give them . (with this new idea that has been put fourth using a d20 role to figure out weather or not they get something usless or usefull for the mod only . 1-10 usless 11-20 usefull with the number deciding how good the item is.
#4 kenobi65 Nov 29, 2008 23:12:04	Fundamentally...you can't give the PCs any materially useful items that aren't in the module, and aren't listed as rewards that the PCs can come out of the module with. Little silly things like the rubber ball could be OK, but if the PC tries to start using those things to gain advantages (either in combat, or in roleplaying / skill encounters), then that's too much.
#5 Keith53 Nov 29, 2008 23:34:04	Adding more rewards/treasure to an LFR adventure is not something a DM can do. Trying to circumvent the treasure limit is a problem. Now, if you are talking about stealing something mundane (no resale value) and relatively inexpensive, I would not fret about it. Otherwise, you have a much different game called cops and robbers. Speaking of cops, you mentioned nobles. Depending upon city/state, the region may have a competent city watch/guard and legal system. Be sure to consider that they might be spotted, arrested and fined or kicked out of the city. Some locales won't care much so it depends upon region. If the region is rather wild, say like Dragon Coast, do they have a local thieves guild and what do they think about amatuers operating in their territory? What is happening is your players are abusing you and continue to stretch the envelope of what you let them get away with, much like children. You need to establish firm boundaries and stick to it. If needed, they find empty pockets. If the law is loose, then what stops local pick pockets from robbing the PCs blind? I don't advocate a general war of stealing from each other, but an object lesson might be useful. The best solution may be to just talk it over with them as to why this is not a good idea. Keith
#6 merdok Nov 30, 2008 2:11:37	hahaha ahhh its a minor anoyance I was just asking to make sure that i couldnt give them anything particularly usefull . On them using the little items for any real advantage...I make it clear when i give any item that might be helpfull (such as the bounce ball) that it will not under any circumstances to help them. even if it makes sence . They know these rules (well the 3.5 virsion witch in this respect i belive is just the same) . They just like to test me. Its something Id do to them if they where DMing too. They have been caught once or twice (failed a skill challenge once ) but normally they are good about making sure they are out of sight. And they have found plenty of empty pockets. Like I say I was only asking about the rules because it would make it more fun if they could pull a jewled amulet that they could sell instead of a wodden singet ring or "Dwarven Ale A Brewers Guide" book .(witch they did try to sell but it was outed as a knockoff that creates a poisonus brew witch lets of a deadly gas killing the brewer. I have more trouble with people speaking out of turn then I do with the more experianced people pickpocketing just to screw with me. They dont do it to often truth be told.
#7 Madfox11 Dec 01, 2008 4:53:12	If you and the other players at the table don't mind these random sprees of theft, you could of course move gold and items from the regular encounters to these. Similarly, the quest givers first offer could be half of what the adventure states, giving your players the satisfaction to get it higher through negotiations. Be careful with this tactic though, since not everybody likes to spend time on things not related to adventures, and you do not want your players to end up with less treasure because they suddenly behave ;)
#8 merdok Dec 01, 2008 13:21:46	Hahaha thats a good idea for my group! thank you for that. I see this as a trial by fire for me. because I know they dont behave and try to test me. Figure ill be better for it as a DM by making me make all these tiny little rules rullings. such as Instead of subduing the bugs that they had to catch they jumped on there backs and littlerly made nature checks to ride them back into the area they where suposed to go. But they are also the types to learn the rules really well and if they think they are being cheated (such as only 25 gold instead of the 50 that they have been getting) They wont just take it at face value like that they will just ask me out of character(Because they know its not normal practice to alow them to haggle for the price) they wouldnt get anything out of that really.
#9 RyndarLocke Dec 01, 2008 18:55:12	I am GMing a LFR game with a group of players who have played Living Greyhawk all through 3.5 I am learning to DM with the LFR games as well (ie: they are willing to work with me when i mess up ) Up untill now they have been messing with me by pick pocketing nobles and such because the rule seems to be that you cant give any gold or items (magic or otherwhise) not mentioned in the module. They cant negotiate with quest givers for more gold or anything like that. Unless I am missing something I havent seen anything in the rules that prohibits this. Am I right or wrong ? Can I actually give them a usefull or sellable art item or even a magic item on a sucessfull pickpocket? (yes i know it has to be small in size) alow them to haggle for more gold for a quest reward? (maybe using skill checks with a hard dc for the level) and things like that? Any help or advice would be apreciated Thanks Michael You can award more gold. I'd do it sparingly and small amounts however.
#10 _Mithreinmaethor_ Dec 01, 2008 20:05:15	You can award more gold. I'd do it sparingly and small amounts however. A character can not take away more gold from the module than what is allowed. Just as they can not take mundane items found either.
#11 kenobi65 Dec 01, 2008 20:20:35	A character can not take away more gold from the module than what is allowed. Just as they can not take mundane items found either. Exactly. If the maximum gold award for the module is 75 gp per PC, you can't give them more than that. DM Empowerment could be used to change how they got that gold, but it can't be used to increase the awards.