Retooling Dungeon Delve - ideas - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Retooling Dungeon Delve - ideas

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Alter_Boy
Apr 23, 2009 13:39:56 I've heard rumours (from Scott Rouse, no less) that there's talk of Dungeon Delve being retooled. It seems that interest has been waning in it.

http://www.livingdice.com/1639/gts-2009-dungeons-and-dragons-seminar/

More organized play, Delve Night, Game Days and Living ForgottenRealms. Delve Night numbers are fading, WOTC wants more stickiness to make players come back
#2
telvin3d
Apr 23, 2009 14:51:02 From my perspective, based on reactions in my local gaming community, is that the Delve format has a real uphill battle to get people interested in playing. This is from the point of view of someone who is active both running and playing in a public LFR group.

First, from a DMs perspective, there is very little incentive to run a Delve instead of LFR game. The prep work is basically the same and once you have set up the event and gotten half a dozen players there and prepped you may as well just run a 3-4 hour adventure. Also, ordering and availability has been less consistent with the Delve Nights than LFR events.

So, as a DM, it's a wash. Either could be run but if you are already running LFR games there is very little reason to switch over the Delves, even occasionally.

Now, from a players perspective Delves make no sense at all. It involves at least as much time and commitment that a LFR game would take but does not result in any character advancement. It isn't even very new-player friendly due to the higher levels.

So, at the moment, delves are targeting a very small market. It is only attractive to people who want to play a regular scheduled public game but have no interest in playing or running LFR. The number of gaming communities that are active enough to do regular games but small enough that a regular LFR group can't get going is a very small market for the RPGA to be targeting.

If WotC wants Delve Nights to become the D&D equivalent of Friday Night Magic, which I believe is their stated goal, they need to do one of two things. One option is to include a DM incentive so that currently active DMs want to organize at least the occasional Delve Night regardless of the local player enthusiasm. This could be including the dungeon tiles needed to run the encounters or a couple minis or even just the BBEG mini for the final encounter. Alternatively, they could put some teeth back into the DM reward program and weigh the rewards toward the games they want run. If, for example, they setup a program where you earn DM points to spend for stuff and a mini booster pack was, say 20 points and a LFR game earned you 1 point where as running the monthly Delve earned you 4 the number of Delves would go up.

Now, if they are not willing to bribe the DMs into running Delves in preference to other options, then they need to give the players incentive to request delves over other games. Personally, I suspect this would be more expensive than getting DMs interested.

In the end, 90% of the people potentially interested in delves, from both the DM and player side, are also the type of people running/playing LFR. Unless there is a reason to run the Delves instead, WotC is going to see very little uptake.
#3
Alphastream
Apr 23, 2009 23:32:24 What Telvin3D said (and I'm not just saying that because of his pimped out custom avatar...)...

I was all eager to run some until I realized it meant more work, little continuity, and might not grow the game much. Better for me to run low-level LFR. I do appreciate the delves. I read them when I get my hand on them. However, I find them to be rather simple. For one-shots with low plot, let's get them to show the full force of awesomeness that 4E can provide. New traps, cool terrain, awesome environmental stuff... it could be a playing/creative ground for designers, DMs, and players. Instead, LFR ends up seeming more creative.
#4
tancread
Apr 24, 2009 15:56:25 This may be heresy but I regard LFR as Delves done right. They have a bit more background and character continuity, I would take the work being done on Delves and put it into LFR. The split focus isn't helping the brand and just causes confusion while some extra flash and polish in LFR could make it much hotter and a bigger draw.
#5
Alter_Boy
Apr 25, 2009 14:55:48 Tancread, I think you've made an excellent point. Splitting support between LFR and Delve Night means more resources spent with minimal gains. I still like the more casual atmosphere of Delve Night, and have issues with the ability of LFR (or LG) to give players a true roleplaying experience.

If LFR could:

1) Make modules that are simple hack and slash modules and mark it as such, for players interested in Delve style.

2) Make pre-made characters available to order with a module (nothing custom-made, just something to run for drop-ins)

I think LFR could perform the role of Delve Nights for those interested in it.
#6
amysrevenge
Apr 25, 2009 17:32:49
I still like the more casual atmosphere of Delve Night, and have issues with the ability of LFR (or LG) to give players a true roleplaying experience.

I hope you're not suggesting that Delve Night does a better job of providing a true roleplaying experience than LFR? Maybe I'm just reading it wrong...
#7
festivus
Apr 25, 2009 18:27:50 I had a couple thoughts, but I think they already have something in testing so unsure how helpful this would be:

1. Release 3 delves per month, one for each tier. This is probably too much work but it would satisfy a lot of folks.
2. Have the delves progress 1 or 2 levels per month, allowing players to test out a few levels of various classes. Running a 16th level delve with characters you have never played before equals delves that take 2 hours per segment... and I only have an hour. Next month for example I will likely not run the delve but run something from the Delve book instead.
3. Have the delves span several levels between segments, so they start at level 2 and end at level 5 or something. This way you get to try some options and power up along with the delve.
4. Offer up some incentive to run them. I agree with others, it's just as much a pain as LFR to schedule, and for only 1 hour of gaming a week it's a bit of work. Perhaps poster maps with the encounter areas printed on them included in the kits as incentive? They could probably fit on ledger paper if designed right, and thus wouldn't be as expensive as the larger format of posters.
5. The incentive for players to come to the gamestore every week is minimal. Aside from getting to try the latest build, for many it's a pain to head over for such a short gaming session. Partly this is how I have it scheduled, as my wife won't let me over there til the kids are in bed, but I think also many are not hip on a long drive to do a short adventure that doesn't build on their LFR characters.
#8
Alphastream
Apr 25, 2009 21:21:44 What do people think of making delves more easily separable into distinct encounters, perhaps even just one encounter in size? The idea being to make them more into 'tests' and less like mods.

You could have varying concepts. In one, it is a gladiatorial arena with three different battles (progressing in difficulty). In another, gang warfare. In a third, trapped tombs. General themes, so you know what you are getting into, but providing short and sweet encounters for those that just want to play a quick (one combat) game?
#9
Alter_Boy
Apr 26, 2009 12:51:13 Good ideas from Festivus and Alphastream1. One thing I really enjoy about Dungeon Delve is the monsters from new books. Perhaps an incentive to come is preview crunch from books not released? EX. the July Delve could have monsters from Draconomicom II in it, and treasure from Adventurer's Vault II. Would that generate interest?

I hope you're not suggesting that Delve Night does a better job of providing a true roleplaying experience than LFR? Maybe I'm just reading it wrong...

Heh. No, most definately not.

But with Delves, I can ignore the flimsy background and re-tool the backstory into something I find more interesting. I can retool the Delve to give the dungeon/monsters personal connections to the PCs. Not so for LFR. Mind you, I am leaning more towards homebrewing at this point, so take that with a grain of salt.
#10
bgibbons
Apr 27, 2009 0:04:29 Not having used them before, I think I'm missing the point of the RPGA having Dungeon Delves.

After all, if I want to run a one-shot, continuity-free module, I can already do that--just grab a random LFR adventure, roll up new characters of the appropriate level and go.

Sure, not being legal LFR PCs, the players won't gain anything from the adventure, but then they wouldn't be gaining anything from the Delve anyway.

If the problem is that LFR adventures are too plot-heavy and arc-driven that you can't strip that out to turn them into a good dungeon crawl... no, never mind, that's obviously not the problem.

Is there anything that a Dungeon Delve adventure does that couldn't be replicated with "Okay, make up new 8th level PCs; we're playing AKAN1-3 tonight as a Delve module which means this doesn't really count for LFR"?

Rather than have the RPGA waste time on adding more one-shot adventures, I'd rather they spend that time improving ongoing campaign adventures.
#11
_Mithreinmaethor_
Apr 27, 2009 8:31:16 Perhaps they could take their already existing Scales of War campaign and start to fill in the blanks with it and send it out as Delves. Start from the beginning and send out a part each month. There are what 10 parts already? With some filling in here and there they could have a whole years worth of Delves easily.

This way you have a character and play it thru the whole series etc. You get your continuity etc.
#12
telvin3d
Apr 27, 2009 9:21:14
Perhaps they could take their already existing Scales of War campaign and start to fill in the blanks with it and send it out as Delves. Start from the beginning and send out a part each month. There are what 10 parts already? With some filling in here and there they could have a whole years worth of Delves easily.

This way you have a character and play it thru the whole series etc. You get your continuity etc.

Fine, but how is this A) Significantly different from LFR to justify the duplication of resources? or B) Any different from what you can already do with Scales of War?
#13
_Mithreinmaethor_
Apr 27, 2009 9:26:19
Fine, but how is this A) Significantly different from LFR to justify the duplication of resources? or B) Any different from what you can already do with Scales of War?

1) SoW already exists so does not duplicate resources, they have a separate writer base as well. And as a whole SoW has far more continuity than LFR has currently.

2) Not everyone has a subscription to DDi and so dont have access to SoW. By them using the SoW as a monthly Delve makes it available to everyone to use and gives some people the continuity that I have seen people asking for.
#14
amysrevenge
Apr 27, 2009 10:02:36
I can retool the Delve to give the dungeon/monsters personal connections to the PCs. Not so for LFR.

You totally can. That's what DME is really for.
#15
Alter_Boy
Apr 27, 2009 13:28:50
You totally can. That's what DME is really for.

But when I look at a LFR module, I want to shear 90% of the text blocks out. No offense to the writers, but I don't much care for them. I like Dungeon Delves because I don't have to print off a module, read through it, and decide what I want to keep.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Alter_Boy Apr 23, 2009 13:39:56	I've heard rumours (from Scott Rouse, no less) that there's talk of Dungeon Delve being retooled. It seems that interest has been waning in it. http://www.livingdice.com/1639/gts-2009-dungeons-and-dragons-seminar/ More organized play, Delve Night, Game Days and Living ForgottenRealms. Delve Night numbers are fading, WOTC wants more stickiness to make players come back
#2 telvin3d Apr 23, 2009 14:51:02	From my perspective, based on reactions in my local gaming community, is that the Delve format has a real uphill battle to get people interested in playing. This is from the point of view of someone who is active both running and playing in a public LFR group. First, from a DMs perspective, there is very little incentive to run a Delve instead of LFR game. The prep work is basically the same and once you have set up the event and gotten half a dozen players there and prepped you may as well just run a 3-4 hour adventure. Also, ordering and availability has been less consistent with the Delve Nights than LFR events. So, as a DM, it's a wash. Either could be run but if you are already running LFR games there is very little reason to switch over the Delves, even occasionally. Now, from a players perspective Delves make no sense at all. It involves at least as much time and commitment that a LFR game would take but does not result in any character advancement. It isn't even very new-player friendly due to the higher levels. So, at the moment, delves are targeting a very small market. It is only attractive to people who want to play a regular scheduled public game but have no interest in playing or running LFR. The number of gaming communities that are active enough to do regular games but small enough that a regular LFR group can't get going is a very small market for the RPGA to be targeting. If WotC wants Delve Nights to become the D&D equivalent of Friday Night Magic, which I believe is their stated goal, they need to do one of two things. One option is to include a DM incentive so that currently active DMs want to organize at least the occasional Delve Night regardless of the local player enthusiasm. This could be including the dungeon tiles needed to run the encounters or a couple minis or even just the BBEG mini for the final encounter. Alternatively, they could put some teeth back into the DM reward program and weigh the rewards toward the games they want run. If, for example, they setup a program where you earn DM points to spend for stuff and a mini booster pack was, say 20 points and a LFR game earned you 1 point where as running the monthly Delve earned you 4 the number of Delves would go up. Now, if they are not willing to bribe the DMs into running Delves in preference to other options, then they need to give the players incentive to request delves over other games. Personally, I suspect this would be more expensive than getting DMs interested. In the end, 90% of the people potentially interested in delves, from both the DM and player side, are also the type of people running/playing LFR. Unless there is a reason to run the Delves instead, WotC is going to see very little uptake.
#3 Alphastream Apr 23, 2009 23:32:24	What Telvin3D said (and I'm not just saying that because of his pimped out custom avatar...)... I was all eager to run some until I realized it meant more work, little continuity, and might not grow the game much. Better for me to run low-level LFR. I do appreciate the delves. I read them when I get my hand on them. However, I find them to be rather simple. For one-shots with low plot, let's get them to show the full force of awesomeness that 4E can provide. New traps, cool terrain, awesome environmental stuff... it could be a playing/creative ground for designers, DMs, and players. Instead, LFR ends up seeming more creative.
#4 tancread Apr 24, 2009 15:56:25	This may be heresy but I regard LFR as Delves done right. They have a bit more background and character continuity, I would take the work being done on Delves and put it into LFR. The split focus isn't helping the brand and just causes confusion while some extra flash and polish in LFR could make it much hotter and a bigger draw.
#5 Alter_Boy Apr 25, 2009 14:55:48	Tancread, I think you've made an excellent point. Splitting support between LFR and Delve Night means more resources spent with minimal gains. I still like the more casual atmosphere of Delve Night, and have issues with the ability of LFR (or LG) to give players a true roleplaying experience. If LFR could: 1) Make modules that are simple hack and slash modules and mark it as such, for players interested in Delve style. 2) Make pre-made characters available to order with a module (nothing custom-made, just something to run for drop-ins) I think LFR could perform the role of Delve Nights for those interested in it.
#6 amysrevenge Apr 25, 2009 17:32:49	I still like the more casual atmosphere of Delve Night, and have issues with the ability of LFR (or LG) to give players a true roleplaying experience. I hope you're not suggesting that Delve Night does a better job of providing a true roleplaying experience than LFR? Maybe I'm just reading it wrong...
#7 festivus Apr 25, 2009 18:27:50	I had a couple thoughts, but I think they already have something in testing so unsure how helpful this would be: 1. Release 3 delves per month, one for each tier. This is probably too much work but it would satisfy a lot of folks. 2. Have the delves progress 1 or 2 levels per month, allowing players to test out a few levels of various classes. Running a 16th level delve with characters you have never played before equals delves that take 2 hours per segment... and I only have an hour. Next month for example I will likely not run the delve but run something from the Delve book instead. 3. Have the delves span several levels between segments, so they start at level 2 and end at level 5 or something. This way you get to try some options and power up along with the delve. 4. Offer up some incentive to run them. I agree with others, it's just as much a pain as LFR to schedule, and for only 1 hour of gaming a week it's a bit of work. Perhaps poster maps with the encounter areas printed on them included in the kits as incentive? They could probably fit on ledger paper if designed right, and thus wouldn't be as expensive as the larger format of posters. 5. The incentive for players to come to the gamestore every week is minimal. Aside from getting to try the latest build, for many it's a pain to head over for such a short gaming session. Partly this is how I have it scheduled, as my wife won't let me over there til the kids are in bed, but I think also many are not hip on a long drive to do a short adventure that doesn't build on their LFR characters.
#8 Alphastream Apr 25, 2009 21:21:44	What do people think of making delves more easily separable into distinct encounters, perhaps even just one encounter in size? The idea being to make them more into 'tests' and less like mods. You could have varying concepts. In one, it is a gladiatorial arena with three different battles (progressing in difficulty). In another, gang warfare. In a third, trapped tombs. General themes, so you know what you are getting into, but providing short and sweet encounters for those that just want to play a quick (one combat) game?
#9 Alter_Boy Apr 26, 2009 12:51:13	Good ideas from Festivus and Alphastream1. One thing I really enjoy about Dungeon Delve is the monsters from new books. Perhaps an incentive to come is preview crunch from books not released? EX. the July Delve could have monsters from Draconomicom II in it, and treasure from Adventurer's Vault II. Would that generate interest? I hope you're not suggesting that Delve Night does a better job of providing a true roleplaying experience than LFR? Maybe I'm just reading it wrong... Heh. No, most definately not. But with Delves, I can ignore the flimsy background and re-tool the backstory into something I find more interesting. I can retool the Delve to give the dungeon/monsters personal connections to the PCs. Not so for LFR. Mind you, I am leaning more towards homebrewing at this point, so take that with a grain of salt.
#10 bgibbons Apr 27, 2009 0:04:29	Not having used them before, I think I'm missing the point of the RPGA having Dungeon Delves. After all, if I want to run a one-shot, continuity-free module, I can already do that--just grab a random LFR adventure, roll up new characters of the appropriate level and go. Sure, not being legal LFR PCs, the players won't gain anything from the adventure, but then they wouldn't be gaining anything from the Delve anyway. If the problem is that LFR adventures are too plot-heavy and arc-driven that you can't strip that out to turn them into a good dungeon crawl... no, never mind, that's obviously not the problem. Is there anything that a Dungeon Delve adventure does that couldn't be replicated with "Okay, make up new 8th level PCs; we're playing AKAN1-3 tonight as a Delve module which means this doesn't really count for LFR"? Rather than have the RPGA waste time on adding more one-shot adventures, I'd rather they spend that time improving ongoing campaign adventures.
#11 _Mithreinmaethor_ Apr 27, 2009 8:31:16	Perhaps they could take their already existing Scales of War campaign and start to fill in the blanks with it and send it out as Delves. Start from the beginning and send out a part each month. There are what 10 parts already? With some filling in here and there they could have a whole years worth of Delves easily. This way you have a character and play it thru the whole series etc. You get your continuity etc.
#12 telvin3d Apr 27, 2009 9:21:14	Perhaps they could take their already existing Scales of War campaign and start to fill in the blanks with it and send it out as Delves. Start from the beginning and send out a part each month. There are what 10 parts already? With some filling in here and there they could have a whole years worth of Delves easily. This way you have a character and play it thru the whole series etc. You get your continuity etc. Fine, but how is this A) Significantly different from LFR to justify the duplication of resources? or B) Any different from what you can already do with Scales of War?
#13 _Mithreinmaethor_ Apr 27, 2009 9:26:19	Fine, but how is this A) Significantly different from LFR to justify the duplication of resources? or B) Any different from what you can already do with Scales of War? 1) SoW already exists so does not duplicate resources, they have a separate writer base as well. And as a whole SoW has far more continuity than LFR has currently. 2) Not everyone has a subscription to DDi and so dont have access to SoW. By them using the SoW as a monthly Delve makes it available to everyone to use and gives some people the continuity that I have seen people asking for.
#14 amysrevenge Apr 27, 2009 10:02:36	I can retool the Delve to give the dungeon/monsters personal connections to the PCs. Not so for LFR. You totally can. That's what DME is really for.
#15 Alter_Boy Apr 27, 2009 13:28:50	You totally can. That's what DME is really for. But when I look at a LFR module, I want to shear 90% of the text blocks out. No offense to the writers, but I don't much care for them. I like Dungeon Delves because I don't have to print off a module, read through it, and decide what I want to keep.