maps should be built using Dungeon Tiles, a Wizards of the Coast product designed for DMs to produce fast, visually appealing tactical environments
I have a few guesses why this may be but want to find and read the whole submission thing first.
Well I don't know. Somehow WotC must have missed the invention of the color printer. It is so easy to release cool maps in your adventures which can just be printed out. And with a scissor, a little time and glue you can create 3d environments which look far cooler and are much cheaper than dungeon tiles...
If there is no way to build a room using dungeon tiles because of size constraints (say a room is 25 feet by 15 feet and all the dungeon tiles are 20 feet by 10 feet or 30 feet by 20 feet) then make your room conform to a size supported by the dungeon tiles. It makes perfect sense to me why they would want to do this. It then makes the adventure dungeon tile comptable and provides a reason to actually purchase dungeon tiles for play.
Well I don't know. Somehow WotC must have missed the invention of the color printer. It is so easy to release cool maps in your adventures which can just be printed out. And with a scissor, a little time and glue you can create 3d environments which look far cooler and are much cheaper than dungeon tiles...
I think you culminated my guesses into that last bit there. They want to be able to sell more dungeon tiles was a major factor in why they may wish those to be used.
Another is they do not have to pay you for map art as they would already own any map using the tiles, you are only getting payed for the configuration thereof.
DDI, also must be able to use any official maps which means they must be included in the Dungeon Builder, which is a tile based tool.
This throws a curve in that using DDI to build the maps means the submitter would be a subscriber to use new tiles and WotC already getting money from you.
Well, those are a few of the big reasons I would suspect WotC to wish for only tile-based maps using WotC tiles.
Still haven't had time to read the actual submission guidelines.
I am sure that there will be some adventure writers for the RPGA that won't be using the tiles.
Sadly, I'm not even being sarcastic.
The developers have said that they want to ensure that published adventures are easily portable into the Dungeon Designer and D&D Game Table features of DDI. That may also have something to do with it, since both are based on the Dungeon Tiles products.
I've seen a video of the game table where the DM drew in more of the map after they found a secret door. So the game table/ dungeon bulider does have a batlemat feature, you don't need to use the tiles.
The interesting thing is: the quote that you listed has the word 'should' not 'must'.
With only very few exceptions which must be approved at all levels of the administration
Well, this sound almost as good as "must" to me
If there is no way to build a room using dungeon tiles because of size constraints (say a room is 25 feet by 15 feet and all the dungeon tiles are 20 feet by 10 feet or 30 feet by 20 feet) then make your room conform to a size supported by the dungeon tiles. It makes perfect sense to me why they would want to do this. It then makes the adventure dungeon tile comptable and provides a reason to actually purchase dungeon tiles for play.
Well, I don't have a problem with limited dungeon room sizes. But what's about outdoor encounters? An unique room with special enviromental hazards for the final battle?
I find this lack of creativity disturbing...
Well, there goes my adventure wherein you fight your way through the ruins of what was once a floating city, long since crashed in the mountains with sections of floating ground between which you can leap. :<
Sadly, I'm not even being sarcastic.
Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. Btw, I like the idea, may I steal it for my homebrew?
Where is the full guidelines listed? I would like to see what exactly they are talking about in the second quote you have posted. Because honestly, that little bit tells me nothing, as there is no context with it. As far as I know...it could be linked to something totally unrelated
.The article about writing for FR
Download for writer's guidelines
You have to click on the RPGA button on the left horizontal navigation menu, since the button on the vertical navigation (which reads Gen Con, Features etc.) mainly leads to some ancient articles. The new ones are also there, but easy to miss.
Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. Btw, I like the idea, may I steal it for my homebrew?
Certainly.
It's a guideline. It's a bit silly if you ask me. Make whatever map you wish.
But do not use any map from a third-party.
Regarding the general topic:
Again, many people on the Boards seem to be looking for things to complain about. Where's the protest against Kraft Stove-Top Stuffing telling you to use a specific brand of sour cream? Or the Velveeta creamy dip telling you to use Kraft Blue Cheese Crumbles?
WotC owns the RPGA. Why would you expect them to ask you to use maps other than the ones they sell?
Role-Playing Game Association.
They need to go ahead and trash that fake name, because it doesn't include ALL role-playing games.
It is the WotC Internal non-DCI Organized Whatsit System.
WINDOWS
They need to give up that name and start being truthful. It isn't like they can really claim it as an NPO or anything.
So does anyone actually buy dungeon tiles? For reals?
Yeah, they are pretty fun for miniature game battles
borrowed a friends set, all three of em and had a great time thrashing each others warbands through the hallways!So does anyone actually buy dungeon tiles? For reals?
Ehhhh... I have used them. I kind of like them. And I must admit they do look very nice with miniatures standing on top killing one another.
But, they just aren't versatile enough for me and they require a bit of prep work. I tend to memorize my encounter maps (or design them on the drive to the game), so that I can very quickly draw out a tactically interesting area.
Unfortunately, my players have a tendency to start unexpected fights in the damnedest of places ("The miller is obviously a doppelganger, get him!") so I have to be ready to produce a really good map on the fly.
I use them occasionally, when I want to go all out and ramp up the cool factor, but most of the time, I don't bother.
WotC owns the RPGA. Why would you expect them to ask you to use maps other than the ones they sell?
Well... you had much more creative freedom before. This dungeon tiles philosophy is something new...
I can understand that DDI argument, but if all DDI brought us till today is a - well - a not so super compendium and a restriction on what maps RPGA adventures are allowed to be played on then... yeah...
I was really thinking about becoming more active again, since Living FR sounded pretty interesting too me, but uh...
I am not so sure now. We want to get a group together here, so I will continue my evaluation after I have played my first session.
Btw I am not looking for things to complain. In fact it would be great if always everything fit my taste. But I know this can't be.
However, honestly speaking, I could not imagine one of the really cool adventures I played or DM'ed which could be done with Dungeon Tiles... well except the ones that did not use any maps at all ;)
1. It makes it simple to import into DDI - yes I know there isn't anything to use yet but then again these guidelines are for going forwards and LFR hasn't actually launched yet.
2. It guarantees a standard for maps - no more hand-drawn maps you can't make out, maps with no scale or encounters with no maps.
There are downsides, but nothing major as far as I can see:
1. You can't have a specfic X - however there is nothing stopping the author having a description describing X and a note saying this is represented on the map by dungeon tile Y.
2. There is (currently) a limited selection of outdoor tiles.
As far as I can see the benefits outweigh the downsides.
NOTE there is nothing saying GM's have to use dungeon tiles, all they say is that maps in the adventures should be created using them - GMs can still use battlemats, tac-tiles, printouts from modules blown up, dwarven forge, lego or anything else they like to actual represent those maps to the players. All the guideline does is probably make GMs life easier by ensuring there are a set number of squares for the room size etc.
Kithran
Luruar POC
As far as I can see the benefits outweigh the downsides.
It's a matter of your personal preferences, sure.
One of the greatest encounters I have ever seen was the battle over the Arrowhead, from the Ptolus adventures.
The PCs dive down to a sunken ship and are attacked by Sahanguin and Sharks. Great 3d battle scenario. Dungeon Tiles? Yeah...
A chase over the rooftops of a city...
Or the classic seven samurai scenario (the climatic final battle)...
PC's fighting off creatures from the deep creeping out of the ocean at the shore...
Are there dungeon tiles depicting a cementary?
PC's fighting of the attack of a troll at the wooden gate of a village protected by pallisades...
Battle in a big cave with several natural platforms and giant mushrooms...
Of course I can create some random map with dungeon tiles and redeclare every depicted feature. But well... I would prefer a crude map. Then I will start Power Point, or Dungeon Designer and create my own map, which looks as good as most published ones. This will be easier than figuring out from the alias list and the dungeon tiles what this map is really supposed to be.
It's a matter of your personal preferences, sure.
One of the greatest encounters I have ever seen was the battle over the Arrowhead, from the Ptolus adventures.
The PCs dive down to a sunken ship and are attacked by Sahanguin and Sharks. Great 3d battle scenario. Dungeon Tiles? Yeah...
I'm not sure if there is a ship in dungeon tiles but I wouldn't be surprised if there was one at some point. I don't know the adventure but in the module you would simply need to use a blank background and something else to represent the ship - small rooms or corridors would do. The description of the encounter would describe the actual ship, and a note to the gm saying the rooms and corridors represent the ship, job done.
A chase over the rooftops of a city...
Once again blank background with corridors or small rooms representing the roofs. Encounter description describes the roofs, note to the gm saying the rooms and corridors represent the roofs and waht rules effects jumpign from roof to roof have etc.
Or the classic seven samurai scenario (the climatic final battle)...
Not seen it unfortunately so I can't comment.
PC's fighting off creatures from the deep creeping out of the ocean at the shore...
Are there dungeon tiles depicting a cementary?
PC's fighting of the attack of a troll at the wooden gate of a village protected by pallisades...
Battle in a big cave with several natural platforms and giant mushrooms...
Of course I can create some random map with dungeon tiles and redeclare every depicted feature. But well... I would prefer a crude map. Then I will start Power Point, or Dungeon Designer and create my own map, which looks as good as most published ones. This will be easier than figuring out from the alias list and the dungeon tiles what this map is really supposed to be.
I think you are making something of a mountain out of a molehilll - all you should need to do is read the description first, draw a map based on the description though this time you'll have exact sizes for the room based on the dungeon tiles rather than having to guess from a crude map. If the description is clear then the actual substitutions should be fairly obvious even without the key.
I have personally run a lot of LG adventures with varying qualities of maps and those I find _hardest_ to draw out for players are the 'crudely' drawn ones - especially if they are crudely drawn maps that had accurate descriptions. In those circumstances you often ended up with situations where the room was 25' wide when the description said 30' and so on.
Kithran
Well the guidelines say writers should use Dungeon Tiles. Lets look at the benefits:
1. It makes it simple to import into DDI - yes I know there isn't anything to use yet but then again these guidelines are for going forwards and LFR hasn't actually launched yet.
2. It guarantees a standard for maps - no more hand-drawn maps you can't make out, maps with no scale or encounters with no maps.
There are downsides, but nothing major as far as I can see:
1. You can't have a specfic X - however there is nothing stopping the author having a description describing X and a note saying this is represented on the map by dungeon tile Y.
2. There is (currently) a limited selection of outdoor tiles.
As far as I can see the benefits outweigh the downsides.
NOTE there is nothing saying GM's have to use dungeon tiles, all they say is that maps in the adventures should be created using them - GMs can still use battlemats, tac-tiles, printouts from modules blown up, dwarven forge, lego or anything else they like to actual represent those maps to the players. All the guideline does is probably make GMs life easier by ensuring there are a set number of squares for the room size etc.
Kithran
Luruar POC
QFT, I don't think it's a bad thing to use dungeon tiles to somewhat standardize encounter maps. That being said I'm not saying that standardization is WOTC's motivation for this either. Rather I think if you look at it there are some positives beyond the obvious reason which is to make WOTC money. That being said being a boardgamer playing a similar boardgame descent that worked similiarly to D & D tiles is somewhat of a pain. It can take quite a while to setup a map for an encounter versus just drawing it out, which is what I like about D & D encounters. So I guess I'm saying I suspect most GMs will draw their encounter maps not because the dungeon tiles aren't cool but because if somethin like this was soo good for D & D it would have been adopted long ago.
Theplayers who buy tiles will never have copies of all the RPGA material, so it is not like they can easily reproduce a map for the adventure.
Likewise ANY RPGA material sent for events will require WotC to make the packages and include them with the adventure.
What difference does it make to use tiles over maps? Are the tiels cheaper for the RPGA single use?
Or is it just for DDI subscribers?
What real benefit is there with the way the RPGA works to only have maps created with official tiles?
The description of the encounter would describe the actual ship, and a note to the gm saying the rooms and corridors represent the ship, job done...
Once again blank background with corridors or small rooms representing the roofs.
Well, I call that boaring and unappealing. However, this is a matter of taste of course.
Not seen it unfortunately so I can't comment.
Seven Samurai is an awesome movie. However, since our tastes seem to differ, you may not like it :D
I think you are making something of a mountain out of a molehilll
Well, I don't think it's a mountain. I can live with or without Dungeon Tiles (and I can live without the RPGA, and with D&D, too).
I just simply don't like it. That's all.
I have personally run a lot of LG adventures with varying qualities of maps and those I find _hardest_ to draw out for players are the 'crudely' drawn ones
Just because some RPGA adventure writers where uh... incapable of firing up their computer and draw some decent maps now everyone has to play on Dungeon Tiles.
I would have preferred to just rule it in a case by case basis. If someone is not able to provide a good map, well then it's better for him to use Dungeon Tiles.
But if someone has a great idea and is capable of providing something cool, it shouldn't take the highest echelons of the command structure to approve it.
What real benefit is there with the way the RPGA works to only have maps created with official tiles?
To have a center point of conformity?
Just because some RPGA adventure writers where uh... incapable of firing up their computer and draw some decent maps now everyone has to play on Dungeon Tiles.
Ummm
We don't play on the DM's paper copy of the adventure, we play on the map he draws on a battlemat (heck, I don't even print out adventures; I run them from my laptop). That map might be based on something created with dungeon tiles in the adventure, but that doesn't have anything to do with it.
If a DM happens to own these dungeon tiles (I've never even seen one out of its packaging myself) then I suppose they can be used. I know that I have many better gaming products to spend my money on, so I'll never buy any.
Big Mike
Calgary AB Canada
To have a center point of conformity?
Except you have a bit of a problem. Are all rooms/passages/corridors/caverns/etc square?
I think you may also mean uniformity. So that one person sending in a map will look just like a map sent in by another person. So the art is uniform.
Except you have a bit of a problem. Are all rooms/passages/corridors/caverns/etc square?
I think you may also mean uniformity. So that one person sending in a map will look just like a map sent in by another person. So the art is uniform.
Well given all speeds, areas of spells, ranges etc are all (in 4e) stated in terms of squares. A room may not be exactly square but to for ease of play you want it to be laid out in squares.
Kithran
Luruar POC
Ummm
We don't play on the DM's paper copy of the adventure, we play on the map he draws on a battlemat (heck, I don't even print out adventures; I run them from my laptop). That map might be based on something created with dungeon tiles in the adventure, but that doesn't have anything to do with it.
If a DM happens to own these dungeon tiles (I've never even seen one out of its packaging myself) then I suppose they can be used. I know that I have many better gaming products to spend my money on, so I'll never buy any.
Big Mike
Calgary AB Canada
Thank you - this is the point that I've been trying to make all along - the writers guidelines simply say what _should_ be used to produce the map for the DM's copy of the adventure. It makes _no_ difference to a DM who is running a game face-to-face - they can just continue to do whatever they have always done. It makes a _big_ difference to a DM who is going to be running online using DDI - if the map was produced using dungeon tiles the dm can easily create the map, otherwise he has difficulties.
Kithran
Luruar POC
Seven Samurai is an awesome movie. However, since our tastes seem to differ, you may not like it :D
I suspect I'd like it - I've seen the Magnificent Seven and just havent' gotten hold of a copy of Seven Samurai
Just because some RPGA adventure writers where uh... incapable of firing up their computer and draw some decent maps now everyone has to play on Dungeon Tiles.
I think you have missed the point - see my previous post. There is nothing saying you have to _play_ on Dungeon Tiles, simple the map printed in the module should be created using Dungeon Tiles.
Kithran
Luruar POC
I think you have missed the point - see my previous post. There is nothing saying you have to _play_ on Dungeon Tiles, simple the map printed in the module should be created using Dungeon Tiles.
Well, no, I haven't missed it, but the statement I made about playing on Dungeon Tiles was - well - crappy. I tried to keep things short and made a mistake.
What I wanted to say was that the author of a module has no chance of providing a nice map of how he imagines an interesting environment of an encounter.
He has to create a mock up Dungeon Tile representation and every DM who wants to run the module has to do the work of creating a nice map himself.
This means a lot of duplicate effort - instead of one person creating a nice map which then may be used by many, each one has to spend the time to create something nice.
Well given all speeds, areas of spells, ranges etc are all (in 4e) stated in terms of squares. A room may not be exactly square but to for ease of play you want it to be laid out in squares.
Kithran
Luruar POC
Now I don't deny that with the current edition and its foibles that the grids aren't helpful or claim that they shouldn't belong. I am just saying those things themselves don't always end up as square.
It may work for interlocking interior pieces to have them as square to fit together uniformly, but I don't recall seeing many things that had strong curves in the tiles unless it was some furniture or fixture.
So the edges of the actual rooms and such being all square corners seems a bit odd.
Outside it doesn't matter too much as the world keeps extending beyond what the eye, ot battlemat can see. But for interiors, not every room needs to be built from right angles. Especially passages carved out of bedrock, rather than formed stones to make a wall.
Still, I hope DDI becomes available real quick, because the current dungeon tile programs are difficult and time consuming to use...
Then DDI also is said to have the ability to import 2d maps for use as basic images that you can draw on, so a gridded map not using the tiles will be of little harm as the 3D terrain pieces will still exist within DDI software to allow for elevated visuals.
Note that the *encounter* maps needs to be drawn in Dungeon Tiles. The overview maps can be drawn in other sources including scans of paper maps. Of course, standards for such maps are going to be relatively high, so if they are of the type Kithran was complaining about, they do not get in.
Well I was talking of encounter maps. You can provide really nice encounter maps in a printable module. The problem is that I don't know of really good city/village dungeon tiles but it seems that the next set solves at least this problem.
I hope that they allow special custom maps pretty often, and that this statement about have to be approved by all levels of the administration is just there to encourage people to think twice if their encounter map idea is really that great.
Still, I hope DDI becomes available real quick, because the current dungeon tile programs are difficult and time consuming to use...
Yeah. The note that you should use your digicam to photograph the tiles and send a picture sounds really a little like an admission of defeat :P
I can totally understand that the applications are delayed, but they really should be a little less ...uh... harsh with their requirements until they provide the tools to fullfill them.
While it may be helpful for DDI, the problem is the room size for encounters is now rather large per RAW, which the RPGA should strive to maintain to keep all games cohesive. This means the number of tiles needed to create these encounter maps may be numerous, and those runnign the RPGA events may not have acess to all the tiles they need if not provided by WotC. Which would mean a printed map would make more logical sense, then only the DDI suffers as a secondary outlet for the RPGA encouter maps slightly in not using exaclt tiles, but the live face-to-face events themselves will have a cheap and quick map for use during the event with little extra cost for the organizer or WotC to supply with the titles if not all tiles are in constant production.
I'm sorry but I'm just lost here - what on earth is the difference _for the dm_ between a module with Dungeon Tiles used for the encounter maps and a module with maps produced by some other means. In either case you can print out the map in a larger scale if you just want to use the map in the module. If you are using any other means to display the map then there should be no difference.
Kithran
Luruar POC
what on earth is the difference _for the dm_ between a module with Dungeon Tiles used for the encounter maps and a module with maps produced by some other means.
Well, I tried to say what the difference is before:
What I wanted to say was that the author of a module has no chance of providing a nice map of how he imagines an interesting environment of an encounter.
He has to create a mock up Dungeon Tile representation and every DM who wants to run the module has to do the work of creating a nice map himself.
This means a lot of duplicate effort - instead of one person creating a nice map which then may be used by many, each one has to spend the time to create something nice.
I would like to know why it is not possible to understand what I wanted to say, or better, what do you think I want to say?
I'm sorry but I'm just lost here - what on earth is the difference _for the dm_ between a module with Dungeon Tiles used for the encounter maps and a module with maps produced by some other means. In either case you can print out the map in a larger scale if you just want to use the map in the module. If you are using any other means to display the map then there should be no difference.
Kithran
Luruar POC
Lets try it this way. I will allow you to start.
Our goal is for an RPGA adventure that provides the proper tools for the DM running the adventure for the players to get as much out of the RPGA event as possible.
What is the process this gets done the way you see it?
You are arguing that the rule stiffles the creativity of the author. Of course, others might argue that some of the best work is presented when working within limitations ;) In any event, some times the rule would limit creativity, but in those cases an author can talk with those higher up in the food chain. Mind you, with a bit of imagination from the DM and players a stone-tile floor can be a natural cavern floor, a dockside woodenboards or even a floating grassy island. So you can do a suprisingly amount of things with the tiles...
You two do realize you are arguing about apples and oranges don't you? Kithran talks about the difference for the DM who is the running the adventure. For the DM it hardly matters whether a map has been drawn in Dungeon Tiles or not as long as he can read it and it includes interesting terrain that fits the adventure.
... and every DM who wants to run the module has to do the work of creating a nice map himself.
Remark: the nice map refers to an encounter map, not an overland map.
Of course, others might argue that some of the best work is presented when working within limitations ;)
Well as human beings we always work within limitations. I don't like it if additional artificial limitations are created.
...Mind you, with a bit of imagination from the DM and players a stone-tile floor can be a natural cavern floor, a dockside woodenboards or even a floating grassy island. So you can do a suprisingly amount of things with the tiles...
... and every DM who wants to run the module has to do the work of creating a nice map himself.