This thread is about 50% asking for advice, 50% venting, and 50% whining. In no particular order. You have been warned.
First, I know how to ask people to leave my private games. I've done it once in the last few years, after a few conversations with the player and honest attempts to fix the problem. I am not a shrinking violet as a GM; I am OK with the responsibility of maintaining a happy play environment for myself and my players.
It is possible that I am a jerk -- y'all have no way to tell -- but I personally think I'm pretty careful about it. Once in twenty years of gaming isn't a lot, and my players come back when I run new campaigns.
So here I am running a public LFR game day at a gaming store. It's a decent game day; we tend to fill up a single table, I like most of the players, and people generally keep coming back. Unfortunately we have one player who is a problem for me. He is an attention hog. He's prone to interrupting fairly loudly; both me, which is sort of OK because I can say "Please hold off while I'm handling this other thing," and other people, which is less OK because sometimes the quieter folks allow themselves to be drowned out.
He's also socially very awkward. I am fine with and fond of the socially awkward people! Hi, I love D&D so much that I make furniture buying decisions based on what will store dungeon tiles the best. I have put in my socially awkward hours, let me tell you. But this guy... sample story: we're getting the game under way, making a bit of chatter about books and such and he turns to my SO and says "if you were with me, you'd see a lot of books! My house is full of D&D material!" After which point he notes that he's X years old, never had a girlfriend, "but I'm not gay!"
Well, thanks, man, good of you to share. Wouldn't have minded if you did like guys, you know. And anyhow, could you stop... doing whatever you were doing there? Cause you knew she's with me.
He doesn't pay attention. A few days ago I sent out a nice detailed email to our local mailing list with the schedule for the next few months. I know he saw it, because he replied to it. One of the possible dates was an optional date depending on a couple of factors. At our last session, we figured out that we would have a game on that date and he got pretty snippy about it, because he hadn't paid attention to that portion of the email. We wasted ten minutes wasted going over the details of the schedule again; I use email to save time face to face, you know?
He keeps calling one of our other players -- a guy who's been to every session -- by the wrong name. I swear by god. It's not like it's an uncommon or odd name, either.
So yeah, we've got this loud oblivious guy. He has been known to put other people's dice and miniatures into his mouth. He is really more of a 3.5 fan than a 4e fan, which is no skin off my back, but he's not picking up on the rules too well after a year plus of play on his part. He's an awful player, but one of my favorite guys at our table is also an fairly poor player, so that's not a bad thing. Just an added annoyance.
(I did say 50% whine, right? Yeah.)
I personally think he's probably turning people off the game. Can't prove it, couldn't say that there are people who haven't shown up because of him, but man, I'd be pretty close to it if I weren't running. I am morally certain that it'd be a funner group without him. I've had a couple of players note that he gets on their nerves, which is not the same thing as saying "he's offending me to the point where he's making the game unfun."
If I were running a home game, even if it were a semi-public home LFR game, this would be ludicrously easy. Sorry, glad you like the games, this isn't working out for me. Done and done.
But you know, I'm not sure what to do here. First off I'm relatively new to RPGA. What kind of social latitude do I have as an event coordinator? I've read through the fairly outdated rules, I get that I could file formal complaints and all that. But is that really something people do?
I could talk to him. I honestly don't think it'd make the smallest impact, but I'd be willing to do it... still, he's an older guy. I'm coming up on 40, and he's older than me by a bit. He's been gaming for a long long time. I do not think any discussions I could have with him would be the magic key to unlocking his inner sensitive thoughtful gamer.
I also sort of suspect this guy would quote RPGA regulations at me. He's a Living Greyhawk grognard. When I make casual jokes about rules decisions he jumps in with "you're the SENIOR GM. NOBODY can override you!" It would be fairly pointless to push him if I'm just going to run into a wall of rules lawyer resistance.
If it's part of the culture for senior GMs to make that sort of call, well, he'd probably suffer it without much grousing. Which I suppose is the upside.
It's always possible I'm just being a **** and I don't even realize it. I know I'm getting snappy with the guy, which is part of why I'm finally posting -- I suspect it's affecting my DMing and I gotta resolve this somehow. I don't want to let the issue drag down the group, particularly if it's my personal issue.
I'd hoped to be at two tables by now, in which case even if I was still running every session I wouldn't be sitting with him every time. That'd extend my tolerance! Not sure it'd help the group as a whole, though.
So there it is. If anyone has advice, that'd be keen. If anyone has rambling thoughts, that'd be keen too... I dunno if there's a solution, I'm just interested in other viewpoints. If experienced LFR GMs have great coping mechanisms for this sort of problem they could share, I'd love to hear 'em. You know, whatever... like I said, I still feel pretty new to the RPGA and any observations are useful.
First of all, check how the other regulars feel about him and also discuss the issue with the owner of the place (that would be the only person that can bar people). Sometimes it also helps if others at the table help you deal with the player by distracting the problem player, or forming a buffer of sorts. Other players can be especially helpful when dealing with attention seekers, although it might mean, you need to tell a the same thing once or twice to the helpful player as well. Also, even though you think a chat with the player does not help, it at least gives him a fair warning, and who knows, you might be pleasantly surprised. If there are two or more tables, you can also switch him around a bit, making sure it are not always the same people sitting at the same table. Finally, if nothing helps, have a final chat with the owner of the place. If he does not want to ban the gamer, there is very little for you to do then to step down as a DM, but no individual player is worth ruining your fun in the game.
First of all, check how the other regulars feel about him and also discuss the issue with the owner of the place (that would be the only person that can bar people). Sometimes it also helps if others at the table help you deal with the player by distracting the problem player, or forming a buffer of sorts. Other players can be especially helpful when dealing with attention seekers, although it might mean, you need to tell a the same thing once or twice to the helpful player as well. Also, even though you think a chat with the player does not help, it at least gives him a fair warning, and who knows, you might be pleasantly surprised. If there are two or more tables, you can also switch him around a bit, making sure it are not always the same people sitting at the same table. Finally, if nothing helps, have a final chat with the owner of the place. If he does not want to ban the gamer, there is very little for you to do then to step down as a DM, but no individual player is worth ruining your fun in the game.
Huh, that helps a ton -- thank you. I hadn't really thought about the owner of the store as an option, but that's an excellent point.
But you know, I'm not sure what to do here. First off I'm relatively new to RPGA. What kind of social latitude do I have as an event coordinator? I've read through the fairly outdated rules, I get that I could file formal complaints and all that. But is that really something people do?
The RPGA rules really don't enter into this.
As an organizer of an event, you have the authority to decide the rules of the event, including who is eligible to play. Conventions usually have entrance requirements, gaming groups may require you to become a member and many events charge fees, either for the whole event or per table. The RPGA rules don't cover any of this, because all of that takes place before the game actually starts.
As the owner of the venue, the store's management also has the authority to determine who is eligible to play at their store.
If you want to ban someone from the game, either of these sources of authority will suffice. Your authority as an RPGA DM is irrelevant, since that only concerns what happens inside the game.
Is it part of the RPGA culture for someone to be banned for being obnoxious? Not really. Most gaming groups are relatively conflict-averse, and unless someone's behavior is pretty far beyond social acceptability (racist jokes, sexual harrassment, physical violence, cheating), it's pretty rare for someone to be singled out and told they're no longer welcome. However, at your small size, you're closer to a home group that happens to play in public than a true public gaming group, so perhaps the mindset of the former is more appropriate.
This is the problem with our hobby....the gamers with Ausperger's(sp?) Autism. Basically no social skills.
Don't be weak and put this guy in check, or you will lose more players.
In this day with concern over the spread of diseases, it is really unacceptable for another player to put someone else's dice or minis in their mouth. (I think that is incredible.) By all means, talk to the store owner. You want a firm rule not to fondle, lick, etc. other gamers possessions. Any further incident should be cause of being banned.
The rest--talking too much, does not learn 4E rules, etc.--are all more mundane DM concerns that don't merit explusion but can be annoying.
Keith
Heh. Keith makes an excellent point and I will resolve that issue post-haste.
It's interesting getting the varied feedback about what I can and can't reasonably do. I think the real thing this is highlighting for me is that my relationship with the venue isn't good enough -- I shouldn't be trying to run a public LFR event in a location where I'm not feeling like the venue is a co-owner of the event, when you get right down to it.
The Venue - Gamemaster/Game Group relationship is a weird one. Gamers want to game. That's it. If the Venue provides a free or relatively cheap place to do this then so much the better (especially for the RPGA/LFR). The Venue wants to bring people into the store period. That is their goal and sometimes that goal conflicts with what the RPGA is trying to do (not often but it can). The Venue needs to realize that organized and reliable DM's are not falling out of trees and that supporting them will support groups of players stopping into their venue a few times a month or more. This makes them money. The biggest advantage your FLGS has over Amazon/Online is play space and social interaction with others of your chosen hobby. They lose that and they lose the war vs. cheap books online.
So your Venue needs to realize this and support you and what you are doing to grow the hobby in that location. If it grows then those gamers will become loyal to that store and buy their product there. Gamers get a vibrant community to play in and the store gets a solid revenue stream to justify the space and time. Once again it's a win/win if that partnership is strong.
So as you pointed out is that relationship with the venue strong? Can you go and talk with the owner and know he has your back and that you both have each others best interests in mind? You're giving your time to do this and he needs to respect that as much as you respect him giving space to run the games. If not then there are plenty of others stores who 'get it'.
Dave C
Official Somebody Noboy
The Venue - Gamemaster/Game Group relationship is a weird one. Gamers want to game. That's it. If the Venue provides a free or relatively cheap place to do this then so much the better (especially for the RPGA/LFR). The Venue wants to bring people into the store period. That is their goal and sometimes that goal conflicts with what the RPGA is trying to do (not often but it can). The Venue needs to realize that organized and reliable DM's are not falling out of trees and that supporting them will support groups of players stopping into their venue a few times a month or more. This makes them money. The biggest advantage your FLGS has over Amazon/Online is play space and social interaction with others of your chosen hobby. They lose that and they lose the war vs. cheap books online.
So your Venue needs to realize this and support you and what you are doing to grow the hobby in that location. If it grows then those gamers will become loyal to that store and buy their product there. Gamers get a vibrant community to play in and the store gets a solid revenue stream to justify the space and time. Once again it's a win/win if that partnership is strong.
So as you pointed out is that relationship with the venue strong? Can you go and talk with the owner and know he has your back and that you both have each others best interests in mind? You're giving your time to do this and he needs to respect that as much as you respect him giving space to run the games. If not then there are plenty of others stores who 'get it'.
Yeah, all of that.
This venue's priority isn't roleplaying, and I gotta say very clearly that I don't think that's a bad thing. I'm new to LFR, but I'm not new to the hobby, and I've talked to plenty of store owners in plenty of locations over the last couple of decades. Counting myself, I bring four or five people into the store who wouldn't otherwise be there. It's not the primary store for a couple of those people. I'd estimate that we're spending, collectively, between ten and twenty bucks per event.
Comparing that to what they make from CCG draft events or miniatures? We're chump change. I cannot reasonably fault my store for their priorities.
Now, it's also true that the store isn't interested in working to grow the event. I used to play at a venue that charged a two buck entry fee per player; that money went to the DM as store credit to be spent the same day as the event. Not a huge deal, but it guarantees the revenue stream and it means all the players are at least visiting the register once per session. I threw my current venue some suggestions along those lines, but there wasn't much interest -- so yeah.
On the third hand, even up at (say) Pandemonium in Boston, which is your average thriving four-table-per-night LFR event, LFR is a lower priority than miniatures and CCGs. Which I still can't argue with, because man, miniatures and CCGs turned that store around. I guess it's all a matter of whether or not you have the resources to invest in a smaller (but still meaningful) revenue stream. And, as you say, if RPGs are a vibrant part of your business it's more than just the money coming in from the LFR players.
But again, not bitching at my current store. I deeply respect their right and obligation to make decisions about their business. They're the guys who have to live with the financial results, not me! Likewise, I'm the guy who wants to grow a thriving LFR community, so I get to make smart decisions about venue.
(Man, this really diverged from the original bitching. Awesome discussion, though. Thank you all.)
I really am a huge believer in always discussing the situation with the offending person. It is really important to make it clear that there is an issue, even if you do it low key and just let them know a few of your concerns. It lets them know there is a problem and allows them a chance to correct it. Use your own style, but I tend to try to be nice, non-aggressive, but direct.
"Hey, can I have a few moments of your time? I want to be really honest with you. I'm a bit worried about a few things, but I know you are an experienced player and I hope you can help me.
First, I want to ask you to make sure to give other players equal time. Not everyone has your experience and we have some quiet players and new players."
At this point, I would gauge their reaction, because that was softball. If huge barriers come up, I would let him know you think this is an important conversation, state the rest of your points as quickly and calmly as possible, and take a bathroom break to let him cool off. Hopefully, he is just listening quietly at this point.
"I also really want to ask you to be sure and respect other people's property. I want everyone at the table to feel comfortable. Doing things like putting dice that belong to other people in your mouth... especially with swine flu in the news... I really want everyone here to feel comfortable."
I would similarly address any of the big major issues. I would not get into minor things. If the scheduling issue was minor, don't bring it up. 2-3 points is best, and high-level with one example is best. Try to not get into tit-for-tat. For example, if scheduling is a big deal, then it is better to say "I want to be sure you understand that, while I try to accomodate everyone, every player needs to have a chance to respond to the schedule in a fair way. I will send an announcement, and everyone gets a chance to respond by the posted date. Does that make sense?" If he brings up the particular event, you let them know that you don't want to get into specifics, just the general policy.
If you suspect this conversation would be difficult, I would speak to the store owner first, maybe even have them present.
I would also think of some positive things to say and close with those.
I am with Alphastream on this one. Direct feedback is the best path, even if it is a hassle. You don't have to be mean about it, but honesty and directness normally go a long way towards making people see there is an issue.
You're on the GM side of the table. Let me provide some perspective on the PC side of things.
Well, sort of, since my experience comes from playing miniatures (DDM, before the schism, but I digress) in one of our LGS. We had a couple of players that were somewhat similar to what you describe. These guys were obnoxious, and not the kind that a lot of us wanted to hang out with. But hey, the miniatures scene wasn't that big, so we'd play with whoever showed up. Plus, they were paying to play, so we (as players) couldn't really exclude them. Anyhow, conditions degraded over time to the point where a lot of us just dropped the game. Even after the one guy left to play Magic, very few of us came back. It just wasn't worth getting back into the game, just to have to deal with some other new obnoxious person.
This probably makes us (and me) sound snobbish. Maybe we are. But the point is that leaving the loud-mouths in the group will either kill the group over time, or keep new people from picking it up. I respect the store owners for not wanting to alienate customers, but they can lose several new customers just to maintain one. In retrospect, I don't know that we could have excluded anyone from playing. Their attitude would have been to come, pay, and play just to spite everyone, I think.
My advice would follow the others that have posted. Talk to the other players. Take the guy aside and lay it out. He can choose to get better, or get bitter. If things don't improve, then approach the owner. But definitely act...your other players will thank you.
I would just like to say that should I ever put your dice in my mouth and hit on your girlfriend then you have my uncompromising permission to punch me in the face.
'cause, seriously, that's what I'd do.
And just for the record, if I'm ever annoying you in Maptools LFR, by all means please let me know :D
I would just like to say that should I ever put your dice in my mouth and hit on your girlfriend then you have my uncompromising permission to punch me in the face.
'cause, seriously, that's what I'd do.
And just for the record, if I'm ever annoying you in Maptools LFR, by all means please let me know :D
Bwah hah ha. Not like I'm doing a lot of Maptools right now, but I will. ;)
Oh, and: the problem has been sort of solved by a mixture of two things: first, pointing out the real concrete issues to the problem guy ("dude, swine flu, don't put things in your mouth") and second, by finding a new store that's interested in working with me to make the events go smoothly. The advice here helped immensely.
If you wanted to take the REALLY high road, you could fine him a girlfriend who isn't interested in D&D.
A little note to thanks for making those with autistic spectrum orders, specifically Auspergers, out to be those with zero social skills (I know it was two weeks ago).
I almost specialize in gaming with those who are considered pretty bad by some peoples' standards, some people find us a bit obxnoxius, too unfocused, etc.
I think a good percentage of those I regularly play LFR have Auspergers or some form of very high functioning autism and you do run into more social awkwardness and sometimes more difficulty with certain behaviors. Now while I do my best to tolerate and work with, I don't advise this for everyone and certainly don't think its a responibility of anyone to bend over backwards especially in an environment where one has to be on better behavior (store event, convention, etc).
I'd say the thing I'd run into a big no-no would be the idea he puts things in his mouth, if anybody did something that bad I'd probably not let them come back to my table period.
I have dealt with some who refuse to really understand the rules properly, on the other hand I have someone with auspergers who has almost every 3.5 and 4th Ed mechanic absolutely memorized and its very hard to explain to him why its not a bad thing for a GM to deviate from them (he's getting better, he GM'ed two of his own games fairly well in the last month).
I don't think its unreasonable to require a certain amount of social maturity and responibility, I tend to bend more at private tables but would be inclined to hit them with a rolled-up newspaper for the same behavior in a more public setting.
Now on the other hand there are some I have encountered I would never have at my table unless their behavior improved significantly. Luckily in one case he dislikes 4th Ed, but with 3.5e the few times people tried to have him at their table he basically refused to play and just argued on why wouldn't they try his system ("It has more alignments!", "I have monkey birds, you know they are cool!", "Your world is just dumb!", etc, etc) and couldn't understand why practically drooling down a female gamer's shirt was bad ("Well they shouldn't wear shirts with cuts!".) In another instance I had a kid next to me who had -something- and kept insisting on almost punching me in the shoulder to get my attention every other minute (apparently he thought he was just tapping or something). Pardon the tangent.
Just for arguments sake I'd be interested in knowing his responses to when you try and curb his behavior, especially the one with putting minis and dice in his mouth. If he's unable and willing to change (now at least the ones that I have some trouble with will at least promise me to try harder next time) then he won't work out and you need to simply talk to the store owner.
If anyone wants to be truly horrified, this thread on the Spycraft forums (one of the best forums for being entertained by your fellow gamers out there) should do the trick. Creepiest gamers you have ever played with thread. *Shivers*. I share it because it really made all my bad experiences seem like nothing worth complaining about.