Thank you wizards, for making it easier to walk away from RPGA play

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

opskt

Aug 21, 2010 13:16:28
For years now, I have struggled to make my home games conform to the 'requirements' of RPGA sanctioned play, both for the benefit of my players and myself, in teh form of the swag.

Then you cut player rewards.

And now, with the August 'reward' (and I use that term very losely) we have gotten a letter saying that there will be no more points or rewards for home play, only public events (aka 'Doing your damn advertising for you for less pay than an INTERN gets.') Now, instead of having to gather and report the data, we get the 'reward' in the Event Kits.

The second part, good idea. The first part, well, frankly, bite me. Really.

I've dealt with the system for 4 years, working hard to have a minimum table for reporting, and now you just decide that my home game matters not to you.

Well, guess what? You just made it easier on me to formally decide to hand of the D&D WPN Events to the other guy I got on the system in the Dark Sun Encounters, and start spending the time demoing other games that I like even more for my FLGS like Savage Worlds and Call of Cthulhu. If I'm not getting real support and rewards anymore, I might as well ENJOY the games I am running as much as I can.

Should make it easier to run Eberron at home now, though.

Cheers!
#2

mindshadow2k

Aug 21, 2010 14:24:51
I too must say I am a little put out by this decision.  While I understand that sending out rewards to people is costly it was nice to see come in the mail and like a pat on the back for bringing people into the game.

One of the big reasons I got back into D&D with 4th edition was because of the electronic initiative, but that seems to be going downhill fast with much disappointment to me.  

I am mostly a remote player trying to keep together my old group who are hundreds of miles apart and although I am happy using such tools as maptool and skype I really looked forward to a true integrated system and well that seems like it is gone now. 

The quality of the magazines is really slipping into just more combat crap for the game which already has enough crunch for 5 different games.

And now this..  As I mentioned I understand the costs involved but why couldn't they offer downloads of say like the encounter adventures after they have been completed or something along those lines that would cost little for them to host and the DM can print at his/her own expense.  

It just seems like a shame that they only are going to reward those we are privledged enough to run a game in stores since some of us have families and other obligations that may prohibit us from partaking in those events. 
#3

opskt

Aug 21, 2010 16:23:14
Families and lives, yes.

Today, I had to cancel the D&D Game Day: Dark Sun event because no one showed up because WoTC demands we run on this day only, and this time it fell on the same day as 'Campus Move In Weekend.'

Dead. Empty. Store.

I can wait for Red Box Game Day, on Septermber 11th. Yeah.

I'm not even bothering sanctioing the Gamma World one.
#4

WolfStar76

Aug 26, 2010 12:54:27
I'm passing on comments from this thread to Wizards in my weekly report.
#5

mindshadow2k

Aug 26, 2010 19:04:02
I'm passing on comments from this thread to Wizards in my weekly report.


Thanks WolfStar76!  While I am skeptical it will help, I am certainly appreciative of the effort!
#6

surgebuster

Aug 26, 2010 20:11:00

For years now, I have struggled to make my home games conform to the 'requirements' of RPGA sanctioned play, both for the benefit of my players and myself, in teh form of the swag.

If you give a gamer a donut, they'll complain about the hole. The RPGA provides all this stuff for free with very few restrictions. Some of those restrictions, like promoting launch events to help drive new customers into their FLGS, are aimed at growing the hobby. Players win because they get free gaming content, the FLGS wins because more customers come into the store and WotC win because (hopefully) some of those new customers in the FLGS buy the shiny new product.

If they charged for membership I'd certainly understand, but gamers placing demands on how they will accept freely provided, generally high quality adventures, never ceases to amaze me. What exactly, does the RPGA owe you for playing a home game? Mind you, I'm not saying players owe the RPGA a thing but it seems odd to accept the free adventures and then complain that you're not being rewarded for playing those free adventures... 

Well, guess what? You just made it easier on me to formally decide to hand of the D&D WPN Events to the other guy I got on the system in the Dark Sun Encounters, and start spending the time demoing other games that I like even more for my FLGS like Savage Worlds and Call of Cthulhu. If I'm not getting real support and rewards anymore, I might as well ENJOY the games I am running as much as I can.

You suggest you don't enjoy playing or organising RPGA games and only do so for the rewards - I would have to question whether the RPGA rewards were ever worth the effort if you had to put up with games you don't like playing or organising. 

I've organised gamedays and conventions for the past few years and I don't think I'd ever have continued to do it if I hated Living Greyhawk or LFR. Anyway, I think everyone should do what makes them happy and carrying a +5 chip of entitlement (neck slot) and forcing yourself to organise/play games you don't enjoy doesn't sound like it makes you happy. If playing other systems or games makes you happier, then that's awesome, more power to you. YMMV. Smile
#7

tosta_dojen

Aug 28, 2010 1:06:32

If you give a gamer a donut, they'll complain about the hole. The RPGA provides all this stuff for free with very few restrictions.



TANSTAAFL, friend.  I haven't looked at D&D marketing materials lately, but when I began my odyssey with the RPGA a few years ago, it was "if you buy D&D products, you can play in our LIVING CAMPAIGN which is walrus awesome!"  The RPGA exists as an incentive for people to purchase D&D products.  Even if the adventures are freely available, they're not free; they're paid for by every player who's ever bought anything.

It's kind of like when your local shoe store runs a sale "Buy one pair of shoes for $30 and get a second pair for free!  Then the second pair turns out to be a box of plastic spoons.  Apologists like yourself strike up the old refrain, "But it was free! You can't complain about quality when it's free!"  Meanwhile, I'm upset because the store shorted me a $15 pair of shoes.

Some of those restrictions, like promoting launch events to help drive new customers into their FLGS, are aimed at growing the hobby. Players win because they get free gaming content, the FLGS wins because more customers come into the store and WotC win because (hopefully) some of those new customers in the FLGS buy the shiny new product.



I have a friend who's been running my hometown D&D group ever since I had to step down.  He's put forth a lot of effort organizing games and acquiring new players while keeping existing ones interested.  I talked to him on the phone the other day, and he's very frustrated with the way the RPGA has been systematically cutting him out.  He'd love to run Encounters, but those are reserved for stores.  My hometown is about 3,000 people, and is the largest town for about 70 miles in any direction.  We don't have a local game store.  WPN now refuses to send new membership cards to private play locations.  There's no priority on making LFR adventures available for private play at the appropriate times.  And now he's cut off from DM rewards.

It's not exactly a picture of undying support from the company whom he supports through his own purchases and those of the group he runs.  He summed up his perception of WotC's attitude toward him as "You don't own a store, so %#@! you."  In fact, he's even starting to suspect that WotC is deliberately running private play groups out of business to drive players into stores.  I'm not sure he's right, but I can't tell him he's wrong, either.

So, that group is likely to abandon LFR due to its ongoing difficulties, as well as a lack of support and incentives from the RPGA.  That means no more free adventures for the players.  The players aren't going to the local store, because there isn't one, and without games to play, the players won't purchase more WotC products.

That's your "everybody wins" scenario, generated by the policies intended to grow the hobby.
#8

surgebuster

Aug 28, 2010 1:23:47
The RPGA exists as an incentive for people to purchase D&D products.  Even if the adventures are freely available, they're not free; they're paid for by every player who's ever bought anything.

It's kind of like when your local shoe store runs a sale "Buy one pair of shoes for $30 and get a second pair for free!  Then the second pair turns out to be a box of plastic spoons.  Apologists like yourself strike up the old refrain, "But it was free! You can't complain about quality when it's free!"  Meanwhile, I'm upset because the store shorted me a $15 pair of shoes.

I was about to reply that I couldn't think of a worse analogy but then in the process of typing I thought of a couple, so let's just say it was hard to think of a worse one. There is no "buy one get one free" deal, the adventures are just free. You aren't forced to buy anything, the adventures are free. Pretty simple, really.

Sure, the RPGA exists as an incentive to purchase D&D products. It would be great if the people who played free RPGA adventures also helped support the company who paid for them but, once again, that isn't a requirement of play. Playing the free adventures is one thing, demanding to be rewarded on top of that just for playing said free adventure is simply ridiculous. YMMV.
 
#9

tosta_dojen

Aug 28, 2010 3:01:46
It's kind of like when your local shoe store runs a sale "Buy one pair of shoes for $30 and get a second pair for free!  Then the second pair turns out to be a box of plastic spoons.  Apologists like yourself strike up the old refrain, "But it was free! You can't complain about quality when it's free!"  Meanwhile, I'm upset because the store shorted me a $15 pair of shoes.

I was about to reply that I couldn't think of a worse analogy but then in the process of typing I thought of a couple, so let's just say it was hard to think of a worse one. There is no "buy one get one free" deal, the adventures are just free. You aren't forced to buy anything, the adventures are free. Pretty simple, really.



My point is that many people, myself included, were sold on a package deal.  I made the economic decision that D&D books + LFR adventures were worth the price of purchase.  If WotC hadn't been advertising an awesome LIVING CAMPAIGN, I might not have made the purchase.  And if I had, then I would be much more inclined to evaluate the adventures as a free bonus, rather than part of what I paid for.  Nevertheless, WotC set the expectations when they dangled the RPGA experience like a carrot and told me that it could be mine if I started playing D&D.  When the campaign turned out to be less awesome than advertised, I was disappointed in the value of my purchase, because I got less than what I expected.

Also, you're being disingenuous when you say that the adventures are free with no purchase required.  That's true in the same sense that I can give you this copy of The Sims 2: Open for Business and say that I've given you a free computer game, no purchase required.  It's an expansion pack, so it's of no use to you unless you've purchased The Sims 2, which I happen to be selling for $29.95.  You can't do much with a LFR adventure either if you haven't purchased some D&D books and learned to play the game. 

Playing the free adventures is one thing, demanding to be rewarded on top of that just for playing said free adventure is simply ridiculous. YMMV.
 



That's a drastically simplistic view of a multifaceted issue.  For one thing, rewards have been given for organizing and DMing games, not for playing them, and the former is often much less fun than the latter.  It's pretty well understood that this is so, and that incentives are often needed to entice people into DMing, and the RPGA has, until now, recognized this by giving out DM Rewards. 

For another thing, rewards continue to flow to those who run events in stores, while only the private play organizers have been cut off.  That sends a message, whether intended or not, that store organizers have value to the RPGA, while home play organizers are of no value whatsoever.  That's immensely frustrating for members of the latter group who have worked just as hard as, or harder than some store organizers. 

Also, the RPGA advertises DM rewards as "cool stuff that you'll actually use at your table or while prepping your game."  When people got an item that is neither of those things, and is instead an item that is useless without the purchase of another WotC product, it doesn't come across as a reward so much as it does a marketing ploy, which cheapens the reward system as a whole.  If rewards are advertised, I don't think it's "ridiculous" to expect that they'll be given out as promised.  Then again, if there's one thing I've learned, it's that WotC, RPGA, and LFR can't be counted on to follow through with their commitments.

With all of the changes in the campaign of late, people are reevaluating their involvement, asking themselves whether what they get out of it is worth all the time and effort.  I think a lot of the frustration evident on the boards comes from people who really enjoy playing the game, but are finding out that they can't justify organizing events anymore.
#10

MindWandererB

Aug 28, 2010 19:41:57
WotC never promised that they'd continue LFR through the life of 4th edition.  I'm sure that was their intent, but thank God, they never said so.  They did promise some electronic tools that never shaped up (I laugh every time I see the ad for the dungeon crafter in the back of my core books), though I don't know how much that's hurting them with stuff like MapTools and HeroMachine out there.

In fact, WotC isn't even cancelling LFR.  All they're cancelling is the tchotchkes that used to come with it.  The player rewards were never any better than stuff you could use in LG/LFR games anyway, so their loss is meaningless.  The DM rewards were for the most part minor as well--the ship tiles were the only thing that had any real value, and even those were worthless if you had no dungeon tiles besides them.  I fully expect LFR to get better now, with community volunteers who actualy give a **** rather than WotC employees who have too much on their plates and no decent idea of what the public wants.

(Speaking of which, if any of the LFR volunteers are reading this: I am, among other things, a professional statistician.  You figure out a way to collect data, I'll volunteer to run the analytics for you at no charge.  Volunteer staff only--if anything goes to WotC employees I want a paycheck.)
#11

WolfStar76

Aug 30, 2010 12:54:02


Also, you're being disingenuous when you say that the adventures are free with no purchase required.  That's true in the same sense that I can give you this copy of The Sims 2: Open for Business and say that I've given you a free computer game, no purchase required.  It's an expansion pack, so it's of no use to you unless you've purchased The Sims 2, which I happen to be selling for $29.95.  You can't do much with a LFR adventure either if you haven't purchased some D&D books and learned to play the game.  



I know more than one person who hasn't bought a single 4E book, and plays LFR just fine.  His friend got him into the game, his friend lets him use his copy of the character builder, and his friend brings him to the games.  (I think he finally invested in his own dice, however).

You really *can* play the game for completely free.  I've taught players the game, when they sat down to play LFR with no training and no books.

It *helps* to go out and get the books/software/etc - but it is by NO means required.

Playing the free adventures is one thing, demanding to be rewarded on top of that just for playing said free adventure is simply ridiculous. YMMV.

 

With all of the changes in the campaign of late, people are reevaluating their involvement, asking themselves whether what they get out of it is worth all the time and effort.  I think a lot of the frustration evident on the boards comes from people who really enjoy playing the game, but are finding out that they can't justify organizing events anymore.



I can't speak for anyone else, but that strikes me as fair.  There is extra time involved in being an organizer - at current.  Tracking forms, ordering events, etc.

However, keep in mind that alot of the "paperwork" for LFR is going to go away (or, so my understanding is).  You want to play something?  Download it and run it.  Done.  The organizing is no more or less (that I can see) than setting up poker night for your buddies. 

Does this "justify" the loss of rewards for home/private play?  Ultimately, I think that's up to each person to decide on their own.  For some it will be, for others it won't.

 
#12

Alphastream

Aug 30, 2010 14:07:46
Tosta_Dojen, I hear you. Everyone has their own individual calculus for what drives us to game. For some, the rewards are meaningless, for others nice add-ons, for others they are motivating factors.

By their very nature, rewards are supposed to be motivating factors. They typically have not been great motivators. There have been years when you received nothing, years when you had a newsletter, years when you paid for membership and received a nice Living Greyhawk journal, years when you got DM tools like cool fireball templates or artifact dice, years when you had reward cards...

First and foremost I try to always keep in mind that WotC, while being the largest gorilla in the RPG industry, is really a very small and vulnerable company in an incredibly weak industry (all from a financial success perspective).

Secondly, the company is filled with real gamers. If you follow some of their tweets, if you meet them at cons, if you read their blogs - these are real guys and gals who love to game just like many of us. They are also incredibly underpaid for the fun they provide. I am fortunate to know a few people in the entertainment industries (TV, movies) - those cats are paid big time for the fun they bring. Gamers at the biggest companies and best positions are seldom doing more than paying rent. The concept of "Big Brother" or unfair big company just isn't apt.

So, the company may make mistakes with reward programs, but it isn't out of a sense of evil. It may be due to not having a particular perspective, it may be because they don't see a type of play/player/DM, it may be because they have different plans and priorities. And sometimes it is just that the few players/DMs complaining are a minority perspective and everything is fine. I would guess that the number of people that solely play due to rewards is extremely low. I would also guess that a high number of gamers can develop negativity about WotC and organized play if they perceive a rewards program to be inadequate. They don't need the program, but it helps influence their opinion. My discussions with area gamers suggests this.

It is kind of crazy but true that giving people free stuff for playing your game is frought with peril. Should it be? Probably not, but it is. People will look the gift horse in the mouth and post about it online.

I think LFR really needs RPGA support (marketing, rewards, etc.) and that the RPGA really in turn needs LFR. Or, at least, some living campaign. I think it is an important part of bringing in and retaining gamers. Pathfinder indicates people will leave one company and go to another for what they want. At the same time, you can't please anyone. And, when the company tries out some new things (like board games), then the rewards and other vehicles should shift. It is a tough balance. Ideally you want Red Box play and Ravenloft play to bring in new blood to LFR. I don't see that connection right now, nor in the other direction. But, that sort of incentive has value for everyone.
#13

Ore

Aug 30, 2010 16:47:10
Okay, I get two packages today and I read the letter in the first one. I am sad the program is going away but the collectible card sounds nice. I look through the rest of the package and there is no card, just another copy of Tomb of Horrors (of which I have already received 2 copies so this makes #3 for me). I was disappointed but there was the second package, I figure maybe that is the card.

No, the second package is identical to the first. It includes a letter that says, "Later! Enjoy this collectible card!" But it has NO collectible card and just another copy of Tomb of Horrors. So now I am sitting on 4 copies of Tomb of Horrors when I only really needed one.

In the end, it seems like the whole program has fallen apart in the end so I guess it is a good thing it is being cancelled.
#14

koldoon

Aug 30, 2010 16:50:08
I'm not sure I trust that the organizers will distribute the awards to their DMs.  I know some stores that do and some that keep them for themselves.  I'm lucky to DM at a store that really values their DMs, but some stores just don't.

I also worry about organizers in places without stores that can't get the "official game" kits.  And about the really clear shortage of DMs in many places.

I am looking at several things together: essentially the cancelling of DM rewards, player rewards, payment for authors on the LFR adventures, and I have great concern that it means that support for LFR and organized play including home organized play is going away.
#15

Ore

Aug 31, 2010 6:47:29
I'm not sure I trust that the organizers will distribute the awards to their DMs.  I know some stores that do and some that keep them for themselves.  I'm lucky to DM at a store that really values their DMs, but some stores just don't.



Yes, this concerns me as well. We already have horror stories about bad store owners and poor organizers. Now we are basically handing the distribution of the new rewards program to an unreliable component?

I also worry about organizers in places without stores that can't get the "official game" kits.  And about the really clear shortage of DMs in many places.



This.
These changes to the program essentially cut everyone out who isn't fortunate enough to have a FLGS that gets involved with organized play. Some folks don't even have a FLGS, period. So from some folk's perspective WOTC's incentive program just pegged out at "nil."

I am looking at several things together: essentially the cancelling of DM rewards, player rewards, payment for authors on the LFR adventures, and I have great concern that it means that support for LFR and organized play including home organized play is going away.



I don't think it is going away but I don't think the new model is as successful as WOTC thinks it is. Since these changes began I have watched both organized play groups I am involved with dwindle. Attendance to the D&D Encounters session has gone from five full tables to they are having trouble filling a single table. Our organizers didn't even order the next game day kit and they are debating whether they want to touch the next one either.

Players are flooding into home campaigns of D&D and many are switching games altogether. I don't think this new system is all it is cracked up to be but time will tell. Maybe what I am seeing in my city isn't the same thing others are seeing. I hope that is the case.
#16

Alphastream

Aug 31, 2010 14:38:22

Players are flooding into home campaigns of D&D and many are switching games altogether. I don't think this new system is all it is cracked up to be but time will tell. Maybe what I am seeing in my city isn't the same thing others are seeing. I hope that is the case.


I am seeing various shifts in demographics. When I came here a few years ago I would describe Portland, OR as having a fairly small gaming community. An LG or LFR table would certainly fill, but drew from amongst maybe 12 or so dependable players. Some of those have dropped out when 4E came out, but some new ones replaced them.

Thanks to a really good coordinator, our local store has done a really good job of attracting players for D&D Encounters. We now have 7 tables a week and have to be one of the largest in the nation. We were blown away to find that posting on Meetup draws a 100% different crowd than posting notices on the local RPGA Yahoo group! Advertising in the store brings in a few others, usually on neither list. A few other posts on other sites draw others. And then you have word of mouth and the WotC search capability. We have worked really well with DMs to ensure they "get it" when it comes to running an appropriate challenge level. We have also inspired them to be creative. We see method acting, dramatic readings, props (like one DM that made a fake torn map), and other cool tricks... and most of these guys are brand new to DMing. We organizers are really proud of what has happened. We have really brought some new blood and energy to gaming in Portland. These new gamers are often old AD&D players, 3E gamers, or video game or CCG players. We sign up 2-4 brand new DCI cards per week. We see families with young kids. We see lots of diversity the hobby needs. I don't think much of this would have happened had our first organizer not reached out so far and wide and had we not worked hard to assist our DMs with guidance for each encounter. And, best of all, we are just one of the gaming stores in Portland offering Encounters. There are at least four others in our town! Many of the organizers are on our GMs list for our store, so the ideas one group comes up with end up shared. One last bit: we work hard to promote our store. We regularly encourage players and DMs to buy store product and we even raffle out our own stuff to make that happen (raffles where anyone buying product gets a chance to win something like a prior gameday adventure).

The interesting thing is that out of 40+ people we have had a grand total of 4 LFR players involved. Myself and the original organizer, and two players (one of which only played 3-4 Undermountain Encounters sessions and another that plays very sporadically). Most LFR gamers are not interested in the format. This is a really big discovery for me. They are different audiences.

At the same time, LFR play has lost energy here. But, it is not one program draining the other (again, no one is shifting from LFR to Encounters in our area). The first hit to LFR was around mod lateness. I think this shook confidence in the program. The second issue was when the posts came out around starting at higher level or limiting player rewards cards. These were divisive topics that turned many of our area gamers away from the campaign, regardless of the outcome. It isn't dead, but a lot of the gamers heavily involved with the program have curtailed their organizing and judging significantly. They can be brought back, and they are paying attention to the developments. At the same time, they are running home campaigns and trying out other living systems (Shadowrun Missions in particular). It was surprising seeing many of the hardcore LFR guys at a recent convention gameday not stay for every slot.

In another thread MindWandererB talked about players feeling alienated. I'm not sure that it is appropriate for the LFR gamers I know. They could understand some of the changes if they had come out in a different way. It is probably more about energy being lost and leaving gamers looking elsewhere for something that stimulates them and maybe reacts to them more. It certainly isn't about rewards. While Shadowrun Missions organizers can get some free product downloads, most of the heavy SR guys have noted they already own actual print copies. Heroes of Rokugan, Spycraft... no rewards for those games and no problem.

Most of the recent changes to RPGA rewards have actually been pretty good. While you may not need the condition cards, you got them for just 5 judged tables. This made it pretty fair and rewarded most judges in our area. The adventures have been excellent rewards. The ship tiles are loved by everyone here. The most recent mailing did bring up questions of priorities and whether LFR is being pushed aside, but it hasn't by itself done anything to increase or decrease play locally. It won't shift play, but may be a small contributing factor to decisions judges make.

Ideally, all of the good things could be true while curtailing the negatives.
  1. Encourage all these new players to come to D&D Encounters, where they can cut their teeth and learn the system. Many of these will be old players that are coming back, sometimes with new players. Provide guidance to new players and new DMs and provide them with cool starter rewards. These players and DMs love tokens, discounts on Player Guide, things like Condition Cards or simple adventures. Renown seems to be a good motivator, but leaves DMs out. Our local DMs perceive DMing as giving up some rewards, so give player rewards to DMs as well (they should get the player cards).

  2. Bring in additional new blood via board games (Ravenloft, etc.) and light play like GW. The Red Boxed Set can be in this category and also the one above. Light play that helps them get into the hobby and want to be part of something like D&D Encounters. Rewards here should mirror the board game and Essentials lines.

  3. Both groups should be encouraged to graduate to LFR or similar living play. This is where the players and DMs start wanting a campaign. They want to meet experienced players and learn advanced tricks. They want discounts on the DMG and DMG2, they want tiles and real minis, they want templates and terrain, they want DDI, they want complex adventures.

  4. Convention play should encourage all of the above. Rewards should be a lot better than what is currently offered with the new program. Rewards should really be as for group 3, since convention judges tend to be experienced GMs that own a lot of stuff. They want the latest books, tiles, minis, discounts, and special offerings not available elsewhere. There is no reason why big con judges should be rewarded the way experienced judges want to be rewarded and then small cons should have to find what to do with a set of dice and a PHB. It also makes no sense to me to label a convention an "acquisition con" and ask for fantastic judges when those judges want to play non-acquisition games and want to be rewarded with non-acquisition rewards and want to see non-acquisition play grow. Every con will have new and experienced players and there should be options for everyone. PAX East not allowing any LFR and PAX Prime not letting DMs of open LFR slots get DM rewards are bad ideas for WotC itself. GenCon not having H2 and H3 play was a bad idea for LFR and for WotC. With the multitude of games available (Box Set intro, Ravenloft, GW, Encounters, Delve, Dark Sun Arenas, Classics, LFR) every con should support D&D and showcase why gamers should be into this hobby. Sure, you can't offer everything, but you can offer a bit of everything.

  5. Store play should focus on short light games; the first two categories are ideal for this. 1-2 hours and easy to jump in. But, the failure of the Delve program shows us that players and DMs do want story. The game needs to be engaging, well promoted, and good for all participants from store to DM to player. Stores should also showcase new product. They do this much better than conventions or homeplay.

  6. Homeplay should see some rewards. Maybe just the reward for keeping your info up to date, but something to remind them that WotC values their play (because they do). I think homeplay isn't expecting much, so the reward can be low cost. Homeplay can lead to other play and should involve going to stores, so you want some connection.

  7. Both players and GMs should be rewarded. Rewarding players actually encourages greater participation which leads to DMing.

At this point I think I've spoken a fair bit on the subject and will just listen to the good thoughts others have.
#17

dbeman

Sep 01, 2010 8:31:21
As someone who exclusively plays the home version of Dungeons & Dragons the change in the DM Rewards program is disappointing. Not unexpected, but disappointing.

WotC is on a never ending quest to homogenize the in store play experience. The trouble with trying to do this with RPGs is that they are not entirely suitable to be played in-store.  Running an adventure can take a lot of table space as well as a considerable amount of time and doesn't afford the store owner the retail opportunities that running a CCG tournament does. (ie Players are typically notI buying booster packs during the course of the evening.)

Tangible rewards are the main reason my playgroup has stuck it out with 4th edition. I'm not saying 4th Edition is awful...but there are better systems out there; and the one thing (other than brand recognition) that seperated D&D from the others no longer exists.

I can understand that there are considerable costs associated with printing and mailing modules, boxes and map tiles; which is what makes me wonder why they did away with Rewards cards which I assume can be printed and mailed as cheaply, if not cheaper than Magic player rewards.

This past weeekend I received $150.00 in store credit for my 4th Edition D&D books. I've removed my credit card from my Wizards account and will no longer have my D&D Insider subscription renewed. I'm still looking forward to picking up Castle Ravenloft but as far as RPGs are concerned I will be researching other games and making a purchase soon.

#18

Sans_Serif

Sep 04, 2010 13:30:51
My biggest problem with how LFR is now being non-handled, is that WotC seems content to let Pathfinder rule at conventions - at least they get "Pathfinder Society Played Here!" signs for cons.

LFR just got abandoned.  There's a new kid now.

Encounters isn't a bad program, but that's strictly entry-level.  After a player gets hooked and wants to play "real" D&D, that's the time to move him to LFR.  It's just a shame WotC no longer cares about or supports LFR.
#19

sean-montgomery

Sep 04, 2010 19:12:18
My only complaint with this system is that my group of loyal playersd does not have a FLGS near us, it is an hour drive or more to get to one and niegh impossible to get involved in the setup for the public play events.  The fact that they happen in the middle of the week makes it impossible of rmost of us to attend so not only have I not been able to play any of the d&d encounters, but it seems I will no longer be able to get any of the rewards that I always loved.  I wish there was a way for those of us with no FLGS to get included besides opening our own gamming store.  I for one would love to be able to play the Encounters and the game day games, but it seems like I will not be able to just because of my location. 

If only we could order some of this stuff even if we had to make it public play at home, that would be fine with me.  I have hosted a few public play games at my house.  Back when the mod ordering for living greyhawk allowed you to do so, my friends and I ran a few mini-cons and ran a two to three tables with two to three slots over two days or so.  We have continiued to do this with LFR without the public play option (it no longer gets posted on the website as a "public play event"  meaning no more new players unless we find them ourselves, and no exciting encounters senarieos or game day events.) 

I hope WoTC can come up with a way to include more of us in htese events in the future.  Either that or invest me to open up my own FLGS to host these events for us and them!!  (I suppose that is wishful thinking but a man can dream, right?)
#20

Dragon9

Sep 05, 2010 19:15:40
Also, you're being disingenuous when you say that the adventures are free with no purchase required.  That's true in the same sense that I can give you this copy of The Sims 2: Open for Business and say that I've given you a free computer game, no purchase required.  It's an expansion pack, so it's of no use to you unless you've purchased The Sims 2, which I happen to be selling for $29.95.  You can't do much with a LFR adventure either if you haven't purchased some D&D books and learned to play the game. 



Did you pay anything to download the LFR modules?  Anything at all?  The strawman arguments are getting silly.
#21

Uthrac

Sep 09, 2010 8:54:54
My thoughts:

WotC wanted the play data. This data was valuable. "Rewards" were really a way to encourage DMs to report the data.

WotC no longer sees a value in this data, or they have other ways to collect it. It is no longer cost-effective to "pay rewards" to collect this data.

So, no more DM Rewards. ("Playing the game and having fun" should be "reward" enough.)

Ultimately, quality adventures released on time will energize the player base. The lack of content released - as well as the diminished quality of some adventures - has hurt LFR. Interest in game days is down because x% of the community are not interested in replaying adventures, so they are finding other things to do when their local offerings are all adventures they have already played. 

When "free" stuff is crap, players will look for other fun things to do - even playing to play other systems. When "free" stuff is quality, players will gravitate towards a "free" quality adventure rather than paying to play something else. 

 
#22

festivus

Sep 13, 2010 14:30:16
My thoughts:

WotC wanted the play data. This data was valuable. "Rewards" were really a way to encourage DMs to report the data.

WotC no longer sees a value in this data, or they have other ways to collect it. It is no longer cost-effective to "pay rewards" to collect this data.

So, no more DM Rewards. ("Playing the game and having fun" should be "reward" enough.)

Ultimately, quality adventures released on time will energize the player base. The lack of content released - as well as the diminished quality of some adventures - has hurt LFR. Interest in game days is down because x% of the community are not interested in replaying adventures, so they are finding other things to do when their local offerings are all adventures they have already played. 

When "free" stuff is crap, players will look for other fun things to do - even playing to play other systems. When "free" stuff is quality, players will gravitate towards a "free" quality adventure rather than paying to play something else. 

 



I think that it's way more than just the quality of the adventures and the lack of rewards that is causing a reduction in the amount of LFR I see being run.  It's competition from other things (encounters, Castle Ravenloft, Pathfinder, recent changes to LFR CCR) that also factor in here.

#23

GilvanBlight

Sep 22, 2010 12:07:25
Just a quick note to bring some perspective into this:

The Pathfinder Society, which is the Paizo version of RPGA actually charges for their Modules.