#1 - Are Playtests released in Dragon magazine (Like the monk, or the Wilden) legal for play in RPGA games, like LFR?
#2 - And is the Psion also legal in RPGA?
#3 - If an option is in the character builder, is it automatically legal for RPGA games?
Thanks
The Character Builder is not a legal rules source.
Check Page 2 for approved player resources. I'm not sure about playtest (the Doc says Dragon Magazine but doesn't reference playtest materiel), but Debut content such as the Psion is legal once it hits the Character Builder.
The Character Builder is not a legal rules source.
Actually it is now. See Page 3 of the document.
It's a great tool, but I would never use it for anything official without doublechecking that everything is right.
CB as an official rules source?... *shudder*
Yeah. It's okay for debut content (as listed on page 2), but page 3 just lists it as a rules source. Scary, and I don't know exactly what the RPGA compilers of these rules were thinking. RPGA has historically been scary when it comes to using questionable rules sources though.
2) Yes. (See page 2, CB debut content.)
3) Probably Yes. (See page 3, CB as a rules source.)
You might do better asking these questions on the LFR forums.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1112519
The Character Builder is not a legal rules source.
Incorrect.
#1 - Are Playtests released in Dragon magazine (Like the monk, or the Wilden) legal for play in RPGA games, like LFR?
#2 - And is the Psion also legal in RPGA?
#3 - If an option is in the character builder, is it automatically legal for RPGA games?
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Yes - with the exceptions noted below.
The below is as of 6/18/2009, v.19 of the Character Generation Guidelines (valid for all RPGA play, not just Living Realms). There are a few other items as well, but you should review the whole document at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=rpga/downloads:
Rules Updates and FAQs
Periodically, Wizards of the Coast will release rules updates
with corrections to existing rules, or a player/DM will
inquire through a specific official channel to get a
clarification on an existing rule. When there is contradiction
or confusion on a ruling at a table, the DM is the final
arbiter, although the most recent rules should be used when
possible. The following are considered official rules sources
for RPGA play:
• Printed rulebooks
• Official D&D rules updates (available at
www.wizards.com/dnd; click on “Products,” then
“Updates”)
• D&D Rules Compendium (available through D&D
Insider at www.wizards.com/insider)
• D&D Character Builder (available through D&D Insider
at www.wizards.com/insider)
• Clarifications issued through the official Game Support
team at Wizards of the Coast
• RPGA Character Creation Guide (this document)
• Updates posted on the official Wizards website (through
D&D Insider or as news items)
Also:
Playtest Classes: Occasionally, D&D Insider subscribers
to Dragon Magazine may have playable “playtest” classes
available to them months before they actually see print.
These classes are usable when the compiled monthly issue is
available, but keep in mind that some features and powers of
the class may change when the final version of the class is
published. If the class isn’t presented in a playable state
when the compiled monthly issue is released, it is not legal
for RPGA play.
Exceptions:
• Artifacts
• Content that specifies DM adjudication in order to be
used by a character
Character alignments must be unaligned, good, or
lawful good. In addition, characters may not worship a
deity with an alignment of evil or chaotic evil.
Forgotten Realms Player’s Guide:
All except spellscarred rules and backgrounds
Eberron Player’s Guide:
All except dragonmarked rules and backgrounds
CB as an official rules source?... *shudder*
It's a great tool, but I would never use it for anything official without doublechecking that everything is right.
It is offical for RPGA.
For good or ill, it gives a very predictable rules source for character generation.
3. Yes - with the exceptions noted below.
Better answer would be No - with the exceptions noted below..
While the CB is now a rules source (for good or ill), it's not a player ressource. These are two different thing and the difference is important. The CB is full of things that are not player ressources (e.g. items from Dungeon Magazine and official adventures)
The character builder is NOT an official RPGA legal rules source. The only thing that is always useable in RPGA is the PHB3 debut content. Read the CCG.
As of CCG 1.9 the CB has elevated to be an official rules source (which with all the bugs and even wrong out wrong implementations is certain to cause a lot of headache). However it's still not a player ressource (with some specific exceptions).
All in all CCG made just as many things more complicated than it did to make things more easy
The character builder is NOT an official RPGA legal rules source. The only thing that is always useable in RPGA is the PHB3 debut content. Read the CCG.
What? I suggest you reread the CCG.
[INDENT]
The following are considered official rules sources
for RPGA play:
• Printed rulebooks
• Official D&D rules updates (available at
www.wizards.com/dnd; click on “Products,” then
“Updates”)
• D&D Rules Compendium (available through D&D
Insider at www.wizards.com/insider)
• D&D Character Builder (available through D&D Insider
at www.wizards.com/insider)
• Clarifications issued through the official Game Support
team at Wizards of the Coast
• RPGA Character Creation Guide (this document)
• Updates posted on the official Wizards website (through
D&D Insider or as news items)[/INDENT]
It's worth noting the difference between an "official rules source" and an "official rules interpretation". What I would understand the text as saying is that anything publilshed in the character builder (remember, it contains {mostly} complete text for all the features) is available for use. It doesn't follow that the builder is the official interpretation for those rules (ie that CB forgets or allows some particular mechanical feature doesn't make that "official" if the included rules text indicates otherwise).
Regardless of how you (or others) feel about it, a character created in the Character Builder is "Official" per RPGA and it also is "an official rules source."
Let's all face it - that's what the RPGA guidelines clearly state, like it or not.
While the CB is now a rules source (for good or ill), it's not a player ressource. These are two different thing and the difference is important. The CB is full of things that are not player ressources (e.g. items from Dungeon Magazine and official adventures)
It [i]contains[/i] player resources. Certainly, one needs to "uncheck" sources that are not player resources, as noted in the guidance.
Regardless of how you (or others) feel about it, a character created in the Character Builder is "Official" per RPGA and it also is "an official rules source."
That's not his point. His point is if the CB doesn't add +1 to weapon focus when using a weapon-as-implement with an implement based power in Heroic, that's is a rules interpretation that disagrees with the FAQ. As a rules source, it might allow you to select Weapon Focus (weapon), but as a rules interpretation it wouldn't match the FAQ. That's the distinction he is trying to make.
If you are saying that distinction doesn't exist, fair enough.
That's not his point. His point is if the CB doesn't add +1 to weapon focus when using a weapon-as-implement with an implement based power in Heroic, that's is a rules interpretation that disagrees with the FAQ.
I just made a new level 1 swordmage, chose weapon focus (heavy blades), bought a longsword and equipped it, and looked at Lightning Lure (implement at-will attack).
Breakdown of your damage:
+0 Intelligence modifier.
+1 Feat bonus - Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
What combinations aren't working correctly for you?
What combinations aren't working correctly for you?
I just picked an example we would all recognize as conflicting FAQ out of thin air to demonstrate my point Suoit, not something that actually was in the CB. That's why I said "if."
I just picked an example we would all recognize as conflicting FAQ out of thin air to demonstrate my point Suoit, not something that actually was in the CB. That's why I said "if."
It's a rather LARGE "if." That's because FAQ answers are integrated into the CB - though, of course, with a time lag, perhaps.
If the CB says it's legal, it's legal. That's my point.
Of course, there may be something in the FAQ that has not yet been published into the CB - just as the monthly compiled Dragon magazine can be used before it is in CB. In either case you can use other sources to update what you get from CB and that would also be legal.
The CB is too flawed to be trusted as a rules source in my opinion. I understand that doesn't stop it from being used as a rules source, but it's just my opinion. I do think it's a great aid in maintaining a character, tracking different abilities and such, but to make it a rules source when it's simply an information compiler doesn't make sense to me.
I agree, but everyone seems to have missed the scariest bullet point:
• Clarifications issued through the official Game Support
team at Wizards of the Coast
At least the CB is consistent. ;)
The CB is too flawed to be trusted as a rules source in my opinion. I understand that doesn't stop it from being used as a rules source, but it's just my opinion. I do think it's a great aid in maintaining a character, tracking different abilities and such, but to make it a rules source when it's simply an information compiler doesn't make sense to me.
I think there is a very simple and practical reason this is used as a rules source.
It's the same for everyone. If there [i]is[/i] an error, everyone has the same thing, so it's fair.
Plus, WotC is standing behind their own product. which is a good thing. The more they stand behind and rely upon it, the more pressure they put on themselves to get it right and correct any errors. Everybody wins in this scenario.
I agree, but everyone seems to have missed the scariest bullet point:
• Clarifications issued through the official Game Support
team at Wizards of the Coast
At least the CB is consistent. ;)
On the up side, Customer Service, [i]for the most part[/i], no longer issues their own opinions. They site other rules source (FAQ included) or tell you either they will escalate it up or that it is up to your DM.
In this way they, [i]for the most part[/i], avoid giving contradictory answers.
It's a rather LARGE "if." That's because FAQ answers are integrated into the CB - though, of course, with a time lag, perhaps.
There are bugs in the CB (or possibly rules interpretations/combinations that are overlooked). It's known by many that this is the case, and as you can see I'm not the only one that doesn't trust that it has accurate bug free rules interpretations 100% of the time.
At least the CB is consistent. ;)
Yeah, it makes me shudder too. CustServ still gives very poor rules interpretations that contradict RAW on a frequent basis, and it's very easy to get two conflicting answers from them by wording your question slightly differently.
There are bugs in the CB (or possibly rules interpretations/combinations that are overlooked). It's known by many that this is the case, and as you can see I'm not the only one that doesn't trust that it has accurate bug free rules interpretations 100% of the time.
Agreed. That makes it no less a rules source. Heck, the books themselves have uncorrected errors in them, which makes them no less a rules source.
Yes, I agree the CB is less than perfect. Nevertheless, it is an RPGA rules source. That's a done deal - that ship has sailed, it's water over the dam, or under the bridge, or any other silly saying you want to use.
Certainly, we can discuss the degree to which it is flawed as a rules source, and I am sure we will
, but, at least for RPGA play, it most certainly [i]is[/i] a rules source, warts and all.In other words, CB can be a definitive rules source without being a definitive example of how to apply those rules in arriving at final numbers. Sometimes this is a bug; sometimes it's just impractical to represent all the combinations (eg tieflings with flaming daggers don't get the hellfire blood bonus included in the numbers).
...You still have to justify all your numbers by reference to codified rules (book, FAQ, even CS).
Not if your playing in RPGA, you don't.
There is no indication of such a need "to justify all your numbers" within the guide.
Of course, a DM is free to arbitrate any confilcts between rules sources, "although the most recent rules should be used when possible."
...In other words, CB can be a definitive rules source without being a definitive example of how to apply those rules in arriving at final numbers...
I am not missing your point. But, nonetheless, a character built in CB is RPGA legal unless someone proves otherwise by showing the error based upon some other current rules source.
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Yes - with the exceptions noted below.
The answer is 1 is yes and no. They are only legal if they make it to the compiled issue at the end of the month. The Wilden didnt make it so is not legal.
The answer to 2 is currently no, as the issue has not been compiled so nothing in the issue is legal yet.
The answer to 3 is also no, as the character builder is not a valid character resource with the exception of something specifically spelled out as being "D&D Insider Character Builder debut content" as explained on the RPGA forums.
The character builder is a rules source, not a player resource. It means that if you have rules for something from the character builder that is something that is from a legal player resource you can use the character builder rules text, so you do not have to supply the book/magizine text to your GM. This is a frequent problem in the games I run where people bring character builder built characters but do not have the rules sources for the powers they are using and prior to the new CCG they had no proof of what the power did and thus the GM could deny its use as there was no present rules source for the power in question.
The math the character builder does is by no means a valid proof anymore than a character writing down the numbers themselves is. If the builder adds something that shouldnt be added or does not add something that should be, it means you correct the character yourself and use the correct numbers. And when it comes up with idotic stuff like an unarmed ranged attack, you ignore it because you know that isnt something in the game rules.
I'm pretty sure the Character Builder is a legitimate RPGA resource; if i turn up to an RPGA game with a character legally made in the CB, it's RPGA legal.
True, with some caveats, as previously pointed out in this thread.
The answer is 1 is yes and no. They are only legal if they make it to the compiled issue at the end of the month. The Wilden didnt make it so is not legal.
True - if one uses CB, then everything from Dragon is legal as only compiled info makes it into SB.
The answer to 2 is currently no, as the issue has not been compiled so nothing in the issue is legal yet.
Incorrect. Psion is a preview of PHB3 and is legal for play - it is already in CB (right?).
The answer to 3 is also no, as the character builder is not a valid character resource with the exception of something specifically spelled out as being "D&D Insider Character Builder debut content" as explained on the RPGA forums.
Again, incorrect. So long as it comes from a non-prohibited player resource, then if it is in CB it is indeed legal for RPGA.
The only real trick to using CB to have "legal" characters for RPGA is to not use anything other than player resources, and to avoid thing specifically prohibited like Spellscars and Dragon marks.
So, given all the above, the best answers to the original questions are, I think:
Q Are Playtests released in Dragon magazine (Like the monk, or the Wilden) legal for play in RPGA games, like LFR?
A: Yes, but only after being compiled at the end of the month. Everything from Dragon that is already in CB is okay to use. But... one should take careful note of how the RPGA guidelines deal with early releases of character classes.
Q: And is the Psion also legal in RPGA?
A: Yes, it is debut content and is already in CB.
Q: If an option is in the character builder, is it automatically legal for RPGA games?
A: Generally yes, but the source must be a valid player resource. You should remove Dungeon magazine and other non-player-resources from your list when using CB. Also, as a matter of integrity, you should avoid taking advantage of any really obvious errors in CB if you know of it.
The only real trick to using CB to have "legal" characters for RPGA is to not use anything other than player resources, and to avoid thing specifically prohibited like Spellscars and Dragon marks.
Best way to do that would be to load the RPGA campaign before you start making your character of course.
I'm pretty sure the Character Builder is a legitimate RPGA resource; if i turn up to an RPGA game with a character legally made in the CB, it's RPGA legal.
A few things:
a) If WotC publishes a rules item but wishes to not make it RPGA legal for whatever reason, they will still put it into the Character Builder, as the Character Builder is not built specifically for RPGA use. It is a tool to support all D&D 4e players. They use other means to differentiate what is RPGA legal and what is not. In general the "legal" marker in the character builder means only that you are following the core rules, as CB is intentially flexible enough to support some degree of house-ruling.
b) There is a setting in character builder that allows you to filter things based on whether they are legal in LFR. This is a good tool for its purpose, but is also not perfect. There are some known bugs with it, but they are usually cleared up on a monthly basis (while new bugs may be introduced on the same monthly basis when new rules items are introduced).
c) To do it 'right' you need to go back to the sources. For example, there are tattoos in the character builder from the AV2 preview. These list a certain issue of Dragon Magazine as their source. If you check the web page TOC for that issue, sure enough you find the article. If you check the compiled version, however, the article is not present. According to the CCG, that means the article and its items are not RPGA legal. There is no way to determine this from the character builder.
d) The character builder is a rules source, not a player resource; that means you cannot cite presence in the character builder as the reason your character is allowed to take something. You can, however, cite the character builder as the source of the up to date rules text for an item you can legally take for other reasons. (In that regard it is essentially an alternate way to view the compendium.) As another example of how that works, concider the Dire Wolf. The Dire Wolf is in the monster manual, but given a purchase price in the Adventurers Vault. So using Adventurer's Vault as your player resource, and monster manual as your rules source you can buy a Dire Wolf as a mount. But as cool as it would be, you cannot buy a red dragon as a mount, until such time as it is given a price entry in a player's resource.
So since I have selected the "RPGA Living Forgotten Realms" in the CB and it let's me create a Hybrid character even though the Dungeon Magazine explicitly states that it is not Legal, is the character legal? Will Hybrid characters be legal for RPGA events or not?
Hybrids are not currently legal, and it remains unlikely that the playtest version will become legal.
If we were to get a fully-fleshed out PHB3 Debut article with the final product, I'd expect that to be legal, else we'll likely just have to wait until PHB3 is published.
So since I have selected the "RPGA Living Forgotten Realms" in the CB and it let's me create a Hybrid character even though the Dungeon Magazine explicitly states that it is not Legal, is the character legal? Will Hybrid characters be legal for RPGA events or not?
Hybrid's ARE NOT legal in RPGA play and will not be until PHB 3 comes out with full rules. The character builder is a rule source for how particular powers work, it is not a source of guidelines for what rules are actually legal options, especially in conflict with the specific wording of the article in question that it isn't RPGA legal.
So since I have selected the "RPGA Living Forgotten Realms" in the CB and it let's me create a Hybrid character even though the Dungeon Magazine explicitly states that it is not Legal, is the character legal? Will Hybrid characters be legal for RPGA events or not?
I think that someone already answered this question for you in another thread.
No, Hybrid characters are not RPGA legal and will not be so until March of 2010.
I don't know if this is exactly the right place to put this question, but here goes anyways:
#1 - Are Playtests released in Dragon magazine (Like the monk, or the Wilden) legal for play in RPGA games, like LFR?
All dragon content is legal as long as two things are true: 1) it is in the compiled issue at the end of the month, 2) it does not state int he article that it is not RPGA legal.
So, Monks: yes, legal. Wilden: No, not legal (not int he compiled issue). Hybrids: No, not legal, article says they aren't RPGA legal. Items from Adventurer's Vault 2: Not legel (not in compiled issue). Stuff from Martial Power 2: Not legal, not in compiled issue.
#2 - And is the Psion also legal in RPGA?
Debut Content such as the Psion and the Githzerai coming next month is legal once it is in the CB and Compendium.
#3 - If an option is in the character builder, is it automatically legal for RPGA games?
Most definitely not. The rules of legality for RPGA still needs to be adhered to. For example: Wilden are int he CB. However, they weren't in a compiled issue of Dragon, so they are not legal. Their inclusion int he CB doesn't make them legal.
True - if one uses CB, then everything from Dragon is legal as only compiled info makes it into SB.
I think you meant CB. And your statement is horribly incorrect. The CB contains everything, even stuff that is not compiled into the final issue. You cannot rely on it for what is compiled and what is not.
Here's a partial list of stuff that was not compiled but is still in (or was in at one point) the CB: PHB2 class previews, items from the Adventurer's Vault 2 playtest, feats from the martial Power 2 playtest, the Wilden, and I'm sure there's more.
Incorrect. Psion is a preview of PHB3 and is legal for play - it is already in CB (right?).
Yes, but it is legal because Debut Content (which is only in the CB and the Compendium) is legal when it shows up. It's not a Dragon item.
Again, incorrect. So long as it comes from a non-prohibited player resource, then if it is in CB it is indeed legal for RPGA.
Again. Not true. Example: Wilden.
A: Yes, but only after being compiled at the end of the month. Everything from Dragon that is already in CB is okay to use.
I know you're just restating your point, but I want to make sure this point is driven home so people aren't confused. This is wrong. Just because it is in the CB does not make it legal.
Fromt he CCG:
[indent]Dragon Magazine: Content appearing in Dragon Magazine that is player resource-friendly (full racial write-ups, classes, paragon paths, epic destinies, powers, feats, magic items, rituals/formulas, and backgrounds) is available for access if present in the compiled issue and when the compiled issue is available for download* (typically at the end of the current month). Content from individual articles is not available for
access upon the date of the article’s publication, as the compiled issue may make final modifications to the rules in the article. Exceptions to access will be noted in the rules content’s article.**[/indent]
* This applies to Wilden, AV2, and MP2 playtests.
** This applies to the Hybrid playtest.
I'm pretty sure the Character Builder is a legitimate RPGA resource; if i turn up to an RPGA game with a character legally made in the CB, it's RPGA legal.
Yes, the CB is a Rules Source for rules updates. Only the CCG is a campaign document detailign what is legal for the campaign (and RPGA play in general). If you turn up to an RPGA game with a character made int he CB with illegal elements (a Wilden perhaps, or a Hybrid character) it is not legal for RPGA play, even if you made it in the CB.
Most definitely not. The rules of legality for RPGA still needs to be adhered to. For example: Wilden are int he CB. However, they weren't in a compiled issue of Dragon, so they are not legal. Their inclusion int he CB doesn't make them legal.
With the exception of the RPGA Ultimate Dungeon Delve. For that particular game style ANY Character Builder content is legal.
With the exception of the RPGA Ultimate Dungeon Delve. For that particular game style ANY Character Builder content is legal.
True for the Delve, although not for the Championship. It still has to follow the RPGA rules. Just thought I would make sure to point that out.
True for the Delve, although not for the Championship. It still has to follow the RPGA rules. Just thought I would make sure to point that out.
A good clarification.