Further, I am the gaming manager of a couple of conventions and am part of the gaming management of a few others. When the RPGA approaches to become involved, I feel like I'm dealing with the Mafia in that they make demands for things above and beyond what other groups and/or organizations receive. They also insist on offering ONLY D&D 4th Edition regardless of what the players want to play. I know that a lot of money has gone into creating, developing and marketing your newest product. However, my experience has been that players who try 4th Edition usually end up playing Edition 3.5 or Pathfinder when given the chance because 4th Edition downplays and seems to discourage role playing in favor of arcade-like action. At my conventions I find that people check to see what's playing. If the DM says he/she is running 4.0, they walk away. If the DM says 3.5 or Pathfinder, the people ask where they can sign up.
I understand that your marketing department is in business to make money by convincing customers to buy your products. As a convention event organizer, I am in the business of making money by providing what customers want. As I said before, I've been an RPGA member for over 20 years. I miss my monthly Polyhedron. I miss the wide-ranging support of all role play games no matter who made them or how long ago they were made. I miss the friendly, cooperative support I used to get whenever I wanted support.
Mostly, I miss my RPGA.
Well, back around 2002 or so, the RPGA changed from a paid membership model (members paid annual membership dues, which, as you'll recall, also paid for your Polyhedron membership) to a free membership model. As such, the RPGA's operating budget is now solely coming from WotC's marketing budget...and that's really why the RPGA now only supports play of WotC's current product line. To do otherwise (such as for the RPGA to support Pathfinder Society play) would fundamentally meand that WotC would be spending its own marketing dollars to support another company's products.
At local conventions that I attend, they do offer RPGA events as well as other events. I'm not sure how the RPGA is pressuring you to only offer 4E events, but I do think it's possible to offer a mix.
When the RPGA approaches to become involved, I feel like I'm dealing with the Mafia in that they make demands for things above and beyond what other groups and/or organizations receive. They also insist on offering ONLY D&D 4th Edition regardless of what the players want to play.
Living Forgotten Realms, Delves, Championship... all 4e. So it's not that they are forcing 4e down your throat, they simply can't offer 3.5 or 3.75. The RPGA doesn't support anything but 4e. They aren't making demands or forcing anything. If they are going to offer anything at the Con it has to be 4e (or Saga Edition Star Wars) because that's all the material there is for RPGA.
As a side rant...
If I hear one more time that you can't roleplay in 4e I'm gonna go off on someone like a spider monkey.
They also insist on offering ONLY D&D 4th Edition regardless of what the players want to play.
Yeay, that's all they have. Why would they run anything else when they don't have anything else? And why can't you run any other games in parallel that you please?
You might be able to schedule the RPGA events as home campaigns and then run 3.5 in the slot.
At our local convention in Los Angeles, Pathfinder and 4e RPGA are rolled under one umbrella. Our Pathfinder support has been a little slower to get started, we usually have 1 table going. We only have one person DMing it as well though. Pathfinder seems to do well if you can get DMs to support it-San Diego has a pretty strong community for Pathfinder.
I attended Neoncon in Las Vegas recently and they had a great showing of Pathfinder games. Paizo also offered great prize support.
If your in a region where you feel Pathfinder could develop a strong presence, why not drop them a line and see if they can help you help them?
As for the RPGA mafia, its a hard situation. In general they organize over warhorn.net and through groups outside of the convention umbrella-so in a way they generate their own players. I am not sure what kind of crazy demands they are making for their events.
As you said, the RPGA has changed and the old RPGA was excellent. As far as I can tell, nothing has filled the void to take its place.
Dave is also home sick today so that's probably playing into things
RPGA/D&D Organized Play is 4th edition because that's what Wizards of the Coast makes and Wizards foots the considerable bill to do so. Back in the day things were different, there were membership fees, we were more self-sufficient and the mindset of what they were trying to achieve with the RPGA was different. Comparing a marketing strategy (and that is what all this is when it's boiled down) from 15-20 years ago to today is pointless.
'When the RPGA approaches" - trust me the official RPGA/D&D OP is a single person and I know he did not approach you (or really anybody) about running RPGA stuff at your show or forcing things down your throat. Anybody approaching you is a local person with an RPGA #. No more or less then anyone else with an RPGA #. You can log-on, create your own event, and order and run your own RPGA events at your show, with your judges, without permission or anything from anybody. I know tons of small and medium sized shows that do exactly that.
I love the RPGA mafia term though. I want to be the godfather. I guess I need a big bling ring though.
The majority of the RPGA public events do not organize over Warhorn. The vast majority welcome whomever to play all the time. The vast majority don't demand anything other then showing up, having fun, and not being a putz. Don't generalize what a group in your area is doing with the other 99.9% of the gamers around the country/world.
The RPGA demands are
1 - Join (Free)
2 - Order Events (Free)
3 - Have Fun (Priceless)
Pretty easy demands I think.
Maybe this 3rd person speak is what Dragon9 is referring too...anyone can do it!
If I hear one more time that you can't roleplay in 4e I'm gonna go off on someone like a spider monkey.
[duck from spider monkey]
[/duck from spider monkey]
.
.
.
still thinking about the RPGA maffia though.. why is it I can easily picture Dave doing the whole "Someday, and that day may never come, I'll call upon you to do a service for me. But uh, until that day - accept this table of overconfident players as a gift from me"?
The majority of the RPGA public events do not organize over Warhorn. The vast majority welcome whomever to play all the time. The vast majority don't demand anything other then showing up, having fun, and not being a putz. Don't generalize what a group in your area is doing with the other 99.9% of the gamers around the country/world.
The RPGA demands are
1 - Join (Free)
2 - Order Events (Free)
3 - Have Fun (Priceless)
Pretty easy demands I think.
The original poster was talking about convention gaming in his post, so I was referring to convention gaming organizing over warhorn.net. I excluded FLGS play and home play and focused only on convention play. There is also the possibility that the number of tables at DDXP and Gencon (which do not organize via warhorn) may be a large percentage of total RPGA convention play. I have seen some good organization with meetup.com as well.
However, if I pull up Warhorn I can see around 10 conventions per month, in all regions of the US. The primary use of warhorn is to get judges signed up for slots and guess how much demand a mod in the slot will use. Warhorn appears accurate in this regard. If your a convention organizer and plan to host 4e you should be aware of warhorn and how it works. At the very least you should put a placeholder and link to your convention on warhorn.net.
The nature and scale of running a LFR/4e event requires some kind of organization to make the any con work and have people keep coming back.
I'm not sure what kind of demands are being made-I would guess its something involving judge hotel rooms and maybe reimbursing for the wizards con support or print/paper costs, or an excessive number of judge badges? Hard to know without specifics.
I can see where the mafia problem would come from as if you cant get some of the local experienced judges to back your con its going to make things much harder unless you put in a significant investment of time. You can of course schedule the events yourself and then try to staff them, it could work depending on what kind of support you get. It could also quickly turn into a disaster.
If your trying to get RPGA support at your con, your best bet is to try and contact your regional LFR events manager and see if they can get you the support you need.
Now I find that the only games supported are those produced by HASBRO or WotC. Why is this?
My guess is that Thejpm is a troller or he's been away from organized play for an extended period of time - maybe ten or twelve years. Or, perhaps both. I think that anyone that has been around to see the RPGA evolve and give way to the Wizards Play Network would understand that's happened since Living Greyhawk's inception and how it began to transform organized play and the RPGA. I think the orginal poster is just using this pretext to make his passive-aggressive swipes at D&D 4th Edition.
Anyway, if the original poster was familiar with Wizards of the Coast's current organized play structure, he'd probably be aware that an LFR regional event manager is the best person to involve in event content. He'd be better served coming in here asking who he can contact with WPN, rather than blasting D&D 4E because some knucklehead in his area is not conveying good information or handling D&D 4E convention fare well.
However, my experience has been that players who try 4th Edition usually end up playing Edition 3.5 or Pathfinder when given the chance because 4th Edition downplays and seems to discourage role playing in favor of arcade-like action.
These are the words of someone who had adopted a preconcieved disposition and probably can't be made to understand how grossly inaccurate this statement is. It's also gossip with nothing to support the claim. Players and DMs in his area are the ones "downplaying" and "discouraging" role playing. Or, they never knew how to do it, which I suspect. This poster's comment and the whole notion of 4E not being a role playing game are both a "you can lead a horse to water, but can't make him drink" situation.
Last, I like how Thepjm indicates his misses "his" RPGA when it was open to all RPG games and systems, and then goes on to be intolerant and unaccepting of D&D 4E and takes his little swipes at it. "His" RPGA would welcome D&D 4E and come in here asking how to incorporate it with his other games if local WPN people have failed. Instead, we get gossip and a display of how unfamiliar he is with a game that has taken RPGs to a new level.
Happy gaming.
True stuff
For some, 4th ed may not be the right game. Some people won'lt like Pathfinder. It is a matter of taste. It's futile to debate which is better.
While I agree with most comments (RPGA has changed but is still open for everyone, roleplay can well be done in 4th ed, using the opinions of a small group to make general statements on a whole will lead to innacurate or wrong results), it doesn't help to accuse the OP of misbehavior.
Let's play nice, all, ok?
I also like the RPGA maffia thing. Would make me a godfather as well, doesn't it? I wonder whether I could get DMs to ask me permission before they kill a PC...
I also like the RPGA maffia thing. Would make me a godfather as well, doesn't it? I wonder whether I could get DMs to ask me permission before they kill a PC...
I am sorry Pieter, but I think you would rate consigliere or maybe underboss at best. But hey if you want me to call you whenever I am about to kill a PC... you got it.
Dave = Godfather
Pieter = consigliere // underboss
Local boss with the suit and the nice shiny shoes.
PS: If you need some concrete work for bodies I got some building projects that are going into the execution phase soon. ;)
I am sorry Pieter, but I think you would rate consigliere or maybe underboss at best. But hey if you want me to call you whenever I am about to kill a PC... you got it.
So coming saterday, we hide all the phones?
Ok, seriously and back on topic, the OP may be missing insight into the recent RPGA history. I am a big fan of Spycraft and Shadowrun, both of which featured RPGA sponsorship at some time. I also have a lot of friends that enjoyed other RPGA programs. I recall trying to get to play these non-D&D events at big cons... it was really difficult. Some slots you might see several tables, while in others no one showed but the DM. For the convention and the RPGA, staffing and organizing all of this was difficult. There were arguments about placement, equity, etc. In the end, I can only imagine at all the effort made for very few tables. And, again, I'm a fan of those few tables.
RPGA a few years ago was probably bleeding cash with little to show for it. I could have seen the whole thing being canceled. Business-wise, I'm glad no one put such a decison in front of me to review! I am very thankful that prior to 4E the RPGA/WotC chose to focus on a few campaigns and to start integrating RPGA play with the overall WotC business strategy. I probably like to cry "revolution" as much as anyone, and I like "from the people", but I also like to see my favorite games flourish. These other games were receiving some benefit but not enough to merit the resources, all while draining resources from RPGA. This is all me, from the outside, but I would guess Ian Richards or someone similar would agree. When talking to folks from the outside gaming companies, they seemed ok with leaving the RPGA. There was a lot of time consumption for little benefit.
As WotC released 4E, the RPGA change to focus on D&D is probably what kept it alive. And, certainly LFR is a much smarter model. In LG you could wait months before having new content become valid in the campaign - most of it being limited access. Now, new product is something most LFR players have a reason to desire the moment it hits the shelves... if not in DDI well before that!
And, the nice part is that the ability of the local con to offer things has not changed. Sure, there are no RPGA reward points for playing Shadowrun... but that was never a big deal. Any con can still get awesome Shadowrun, Heroes of Rokugan L5R, and even Spycraft adventures. All of those companies would give a con organizer support for doing so, if you even needed it (order and go is possible for most of those).
So, to the OP, there has been a change. It does not affect you. Many local cons offer all sorts of non-D&D content. It draws a larger crowd and helps create more experienced and diverse gaming in your area. You still will need to work hard to fill those tables. I've worked in Portland to get Spycraft and L5R tables... with little success.
Ok, seriously and back on topic, the OP may be missing insight into the recent RPGA history. I am a big fan of Spycraft and Shadowrun, both of which featured RPGA sponsorship at some time. I also have a lot of friends that enjoyed other RPGA programs. I recall trying to get to play these non-D&D events at big cons... it was really difficult. Some slots you might see several tables, while in others no one showed but the DM.
I've been active in the RPGA since '01, and that mirrors my experience. Cons never had a problem filling tables for Living Greyhawk (nor Living City before it), but the other, smaller campaigns (even an RPGA-run campaign like Living Force) tended to be a lot more regional / localized in their appeal. At the big national cons (GenCon, Origins, etc.), you could find at least a few tables (if not more) of all of them, but, unless you had a core of players in an area dedicated to a particular campaign, local conventions either wouldn't offer a campaign at all...or, if they did, tables might well not go off.
For example, Living Death did very well in certain areas, including Ohio (at least in part because Claire and Keith Hoffman live there), Atlanta (which had a core group of dedicated players), and the New York area. When we tried to offer LD at cons here in Chicago, we had a hard time getting any tables to go off....otoh, there would always be at least one table per slot of Living Arcanis which *would* go off at those.
There were (and still are) local / regional conventions which do well offering a particular non-WotC campaign...but, for every con that can support a half-dozen tables of Living X in every slot, you'll find even more cons that can't draw flies for an offering of Living X.
Ok, seriously and back on topic, the OP may be missing insight into the recent RPGA history. I am a big fan of Spycraft and Shadowrun, both of which featured RPGA sponsorship at some time. I also have a lot of friends that enjoyed other RPGA programs. I recall trying to get to play these non-D&D events at big cons... it was really difficult. Some slots you might see several tables, while in others no one showed but the DM.
I've been active in the RPGA since '01, and that mirrors my experience. Cons never had a problem filling tables for Living Greyhawk (nor Living City before it), but the other, smaller campaigns (even an RPGA-run campaign like Living Force) tended to be a lot more regional / localized in their appeal. At the big national cons (GenCon, Origins, etc.), you could find at least a few tables (if not more) of all of them, but, unless you had a core of players in an area dedicated to a particular campaign, local conventions either wouldn't offer a campaign at all...or, if they did, tables might well not go off.
For example, Living Death did very well in certain areas, including Ohio (at least in part because Claire and Keith Hoffman live there), Atlanta (which had a core group of dedicated players), and the New York area. When we tried to offer LD at cons here in Chicago, we had a hard time getting any tables to go off....otoh, there would always be at least one table per slot of Living Arcanis which *would* go off at those.
There were (and still are) local / regional conventions which do well offering a particular non-WotC campaign...but, for every con that can support a half-dozen tables of Living X in every slot, you'll find even more cons that can't draw flies for an offering of Living X.
Not familiar with Living Death but people seem to forget this a new system and everything that came before was built upon a system who's core mechanics hadn't really changed. Now we've got 4th ED with new rules, new powers, and a fundamentally different set of core mechanics that many older players just don't want to learn. It's like why don't the Japanese or Chinese just use knives & forks they know knives & forks exist but yet they continue with the chopsticks (thank you Mr. Jerry Seinfeld) I'll tell you why because they've been using chopsticks for sooo long most Orientals don't see a reason to change. But even the chopstick is not immune to the universal fact that a thing which does not change dies and 3.5 was indeed on the path to oblivion because it didn't have the capacity for change. As fun as 3.5 was it just became to easy to build broken charactors also I don't miss the eternity it took to find out if that sweet new weapon I wanted was legal SERIOUSLY a book would come out and bam 3 months later we'd still be waiting.
Now we've got 4th ED with new rules, new powers, and a fundamentally different set of core mechanics that many older players just don't want to learn.
I wouldn't say it's fundamentally different. About 75% is still the same as the various incarnations of 3rd ed. It's still fundamentally the D20 system. 2e to 3e was a fundamental change. 4e still has the foundation built by 3e, it just remodeled the kitchen and baths and put on new siding, a new garage door and repaved the driveway.
Did that seriously "bleep out" the word happy?
Maybe the "computer" knew that Matt meant it in a dirty way?
Did that seriously "bleep out" the word happy?
I can think of a different 5 letter word that starts with H that it could maybe bleep out.... =P think of minotaurs
I sympathize. I miss the old RPGA adventures, with interesting pregenerated characters and an adventure tailored to them. I miss the RPGA sanctioning of other systems' games, helping me know these modules would be above average in quality. I miss the community of the old RPGA, with the clubs and Decathlon. I still think 3.5e is a better system than 4e in most ways.
Unfortunately, the world has changed. Gamers expressed a preference for the Living campaigns over classic modules. The community programs fell to the wayside, in exchange for having more games to play. Economic necessities led the new parent company to focus the RPGA as a marketing tool. And that means focusing on the current product line.
Fortunately, I also enjoy playing Living campaigns. I enjoy 4e enough that it's still worth four hours of my time to play with my friends. And I'll continue to travel to support conventions and see the friends I've met over 16+ years of playing in the RPGA.
As to your specific complaints, first let me commend you for still taking a volunteer role in the hobby after more than 20 years. But I haven't seen the problems you're seeing. A local group of RPGA players are happy to bring a group of judges and a bunch of adventures, so people interested in playing can have a good time, and ask for little more than an appropriate gaming space and badges for the judges. Unfortunately, the RPGA players can only bring the games the RPGA offers today, which is pretty much D&D 4e Living Forgotten Realms. If your players don't want to play 4e, you'll have to look elsewhere for game masters. For example, Pathfinder has its own Living-style campaign, but you'll need to find someone to organize those games. Maybe there are players of both systems here, but there are probably other online forums that would be better for you. Or, there's the old standby, putting an announcement in the preregistration book website, looking for GMs, and hoping you get a response.
As a side rant...
If I hear one more time that you can't roleplay in 4e I'm gonna go off on someone like a spider monkey.
Can I steal this? LOL
As for the actual topic here....
I think the reasoning behind why only WotC/Hasbro games are the focus has been covered byWell, back around 2002 or so, the RPGA changed from a paid membership model (members paid annual membership dues, which, as you'll recall, also paid for your Polyhedron membership) to a free membership model. As such, the RPGA's operating budget is now solely coming from WotC's marketing budget...and that's really why the RPGA now only supports play of WotC's current product line. To do otherwise (such as for the RPGA to support Pathfinder Society play) would fundamentally meand that WotC would be spending its own marketing dollars to support another company's products.
The issue of why 4e is "pushed" is simpler than this thread is makes it seem...Th
The RPGA primarily supports sanctioning events for "whatever" the current edition/format is for any given game within the product lines represented.
***So, in my humble opinion: You can present anything you would like at a gaming event/convention for the entertainment of your target group. However, you will be limited as to what can actually be sanctioned (unless other game systems happen to offer sanctioning-but you'd have to look that up) gameplay.As much as I too like the sound of the RPGA Maffia ( btw Dave, can I be a hitman? I already have the sunglasses)
I can be the Consigliere
