legendsandlabyrinths.com/2011/01/14/dd-5...
Of course there is no official source. But the "evidence" is mounting... the release schedule was thinned out significantly, and nothing 4E has been announced for later this year.
When you look at the 3.5 release schedule you can see that they released "born dead" material as late as Mar 2008 (An Adventurer's Guide to Eberron).
Perhaps the cancellations of books happened because they only want to release new books this year if they are going to be compatible with the release of a revamped system, in order to somewhat quell the inevitable nerd rage.
I personally look forward to a new edition, which I hope will be centered around DDi from the beginning, making it easy for beginners and exciting for advanced players at the same time, disallow broken combos by default, and make combat go faster.
Some other evidence is that they put Mike Mearls in charge last year, who is probably responsible for the Essentials "revamping" of 4th, and who will not stop before he sees a 5th edition bearing his stamp and vision of how D&D should be, before he (like many before him) are shown the door. Time is running out...
If the speculative 5e resembles essentials more than "classic" 4e, however, it will take much to impress me.
wizards be very careful what you do here
The OP is so much better if you read it in your head with the voice of Zack Braff.
I might agree if I knew who that is.
The OP is so much better if you read it in your head with the voice of Zack Braff.
I might agree if I knew who that is.
HINT: In 2005, he played the voice of a CGI, diminutive, anthropomorphic avian child.
Speculating being the keyword. Lots of people are speculating a lot of stuff.
Exactly! I don't think we'll know anything concrete for a long while....
The OP is so much better if you read it in your head with the voice of Zack Braff.
I might agree if I knew who that is.
HINT: In 2005, he played the voice of a CGI, diminutive, anthropomorphic avian child.
I googled him. Dude from scrubs. Still have no idea what you're talking about there, though.
Speculating being the keyword. Lots of people are speculating a lot of stuff.
Exactly! I don't think we'll know anything concrete for a long while....
Hopefully, questions will be answered in a few weeks at DDE. I still believe that they're tired of competing with themselves through DDi, and want to try to move towards that being the main format. At least just to see what the reponse is. Keep in mind, these books weren't cancelled. They specifically said that they'd come to us in a different format. DDi is the logical assumption.
The OP is so much better if you read it in your head with the voice of Zack Braff.
I might agree if I knew who that is.
HINT: In 2005, he played the voice of a CGI, diminutive, anthropomorphic avian child.
I googled him. Dude from scrubs. Still have no idea what you're talking about there, though.
He was the voice of Chicken Little in the 3D animated film of the same name...
The OP is so much better if you read it in your head with the voice of Zack Braff.
QFT
They've already lost market share with 4e versus other games and even other editions of D&D. If they announce a 5e anytime remotely soon, it'll be a nail in the coffin of the market they actually have. I suspect Hasbro would pull the plug on WotC's tabletop RPG division before it got bad enough that WotC would have to consider killing 4e (which is barely mid-life for an edition) in favor of a 5e.
If there is a new edition and it preserves the spirit of 4E, most importantly reducing the burden of the DM even further, we will embrace it. Combat should go quicker, and we don't want to worry about balancing issues from too much stunning, too high bonuses etc. 5E will have to deliver on that to be a success for us. Under no circumstances it must further "improve" the game by making it more complicated.
And then it will keep or grow its market share. You don't gain market share with PHB4 and 5 and another set of weird classes with halos. But you gain market share with a big bang and the "best RPG ever". I have my personal taste preferences for certain elements in D&D and would love to see them developed, but that's a different discussion. As long as the baseline mechanics are solid I'll be game for another attempt at D&D.
Eesh.
I'm not going to say "I've spent too much money already on 4th blah blah blah," but what I will say is they better produce some tangible books for me to buy. What I will not do is rent an edition by being an insider.
I just want to reiterate that I'm completely speculating here. I don't have any insider information whatsoever. This is based on what I'm seeing happening from the outside, my knowledge of working with Hasbro on the TRANSFORMERS films, and my gut feeling. That's all.
Hi. I am confused and curious. My question is what about Bill's Ampersand article gives the hint about 5th? I'm not disputing, just curious.
The OP is so much better if you read it in your head with the voice of Zack Braff.
I'm read it out loud in my Zapp Brannigan voice.
I just want to reiterate that I'm completely speculating here. I don't have any insider information whatsoever. This is based on what I'm seeing happening from the outside, my knowledge of working with Hasbro on the TRANSFORMERS films, and my gut feeling. That's all.
Hi. I am confused and curious. My question is what about Bill's Ampersand article gives the hint about 5th? I'm not disputing, just curious.
Nothing. It's all speculation.
I just want to reiterate that I'm completely speculating here. I don't have any insider information whatsoever. This is based on what I'm seeing happening from the outside, my knowledge of working with Hasbro on the TRANSFORMERS films, and my gut feeling. That's all.
Hi. I am confused and curious. My question is what about Bill's Ampersand article gives the hint about 5th? I'm not disputing, just curious.
I'm guessing here, but I think that cancellations of products hint at more than just shifting deadlines around or transferring the content to DDI. They represent an undisclosed major decision, and it's very likely that this decision was to launch a new edition very soon.
I just want to reiterate that I'm completely speculating here. I don't have any insider information whatsoever. This is based on what I'm seeing happening from the outside, my knowledge of working with Hasbro on the TRANSFORMERS films, and my gut feeling. That's all.
And from looking at what Hasbro does with IPs that arent selling well we can see that its MUCH more likely that D&D would be abandoned for a 2-3 year period before 5e is produced. The solution to market saturation is to create a shortage.
George Strayton, a D&D blogger and closely affiliated with WotC as playtester, and co-writer of the new D&D film, speculates that 5th edition will be announced on GenCon this year and released in 2012.
legendsandlabyrinths.com/2011/01/14/dd-5...
I just have this to say to him and anyone else that thinks this.
5th edition isn't coming until at least 2016. I doubt that it will be rushed and untested like 4th edition was.
I just want to reiterate that I'm completely speculating here. I don't have any insider information whatsoever. This is based on what I'm seeing happening from the outside, my knowledge of working with Hasbro on the TRANSFORMERS films, and my gut feeling. That's all.
Hi. I am confused and curious. My question is what about Bill's Ampersand article gives the hint about 5th? I'm not disputing, just curious.
I'm guessing here, but I think that cancellations of products hint at more than just shifting deadlines around or transferring the content to DDI. They represent an undisclosed major decision, and it's very likely that this decision was to launch a new edition very soon.
Like moving designers from the books to work on a new edition. Even though he admits it's speculation, he can't be dismissed right off. He's more qualified to speculate than 99% of us posters.
Good food for thought.
Secondly: I wouldn't care if 5E was released tomorrow. I am very happy with 4E, and would likely stick with it until the end of my current campaign, unless 5E was just pure awesome. There is tons of 4E material, more than enough to see me through several campaigns, so there would be no reason for me to be angry at WotC for releasing a new edition if they felt that was the best financial move...they gotta make the money!
Thirdly: while releasing a new edition so soon after the evergreen Essentials products is a bit rude, we all knew from the beginning that 4E wouldn't be the current edition for ever. So we all have our own idea of how much time would have to pass before it has been enough. Thus it is all subjective, and thus I don't care. Do you like 4E still? Do you see yourself still playing 4E in the future? Do you like the material in the Essentials books? Then buy them. If you answered "no" to any of these questions, don't buy them. But saying that you will never, ever buy another D&D product is just silly. I don't care about sales gimick lines...if the product is good and I want it, I will buy it.
No one is forcing anyone to play with the most current edition. Many people still play 3.5, or even 2e or older. As I said, I play 4E now because I like it better than the older editions. A new edition won't make me change for the sake of change...it would have to be worlds ahead. Why let it bother you? How does a new edition somehow ruin your game?
4th would have a big bow on it in its entirety to do with as you will. If WotC stops fideling with it, you can make 4th into your perfect edition without interference.
I suppose you could do that regardless...but still.
I don't see how a 5th Edition of D&D will make anything better. There's always going to be power creep, cheesed out characters and rules loopholes that will be exploited in the worst way possible. There will always be someone making comparisons to past editions and recalling the "good ol'days" when edition X was king or, as in the case of 4E, looking forward to a future edition because they feel the current release has let them down in some way. So if, or when, a 5th Editon D&D is published we'll have to go through all the nerd rage again with some people calling for a 6th Edition D&D to fix all that is wrong with 5th Edition. There will be arguements and flame wars over it and on and on and on.
To me, 4E has been the best gaming experience thus far in D&D. I play mainly Fighters and 4E made being a Fighter cool. I probably won't be joining the crowd when or if a 5th Edition comes out as money will always be an issue for me. But I will make that determmination when or if I see 5th Edition on the shelves at the bookstore. Like me, I'm sure there a more than a few people who are getting fed up with WotC constantly keeping 4E in a perpetual state of flux.
I don't see how a 5th Edition of D&D will make anything better. There's always going to be power creep, cheesed out characters and rules loopholes that will be exploited in the worst way possible. There will always be someone making comparisons to past editions and recalling the "good ol'days" when edition X was king or, as in the case of 4E, looking forward to a future edition because they feel the current release has let them down in some way. So if, or when, a 5th Editon D&D is published we'll have to go through all the nerd rage again with some people calling for a 6th Edition D&D to fix all that is wrong with 5th Edition. There will be arguements and flame wars over it and on and on and on.
To me, 4E has been the best gaming experience thus far in D&D. I play mainly Fighters and 4E made being a Fighter cool. I probably won't be joining the crowd when or if a 5th Edition comes out as money will always be an issue for me. But I will make that determmination when or if I see 5th Edition on the shelves at the bookstore. Like me, I'm sure there a more than a few people who are getting fed up with WotC constantly keeping 4E in a perpetual state of flux.
George Strayton, a D&D blogger and closely affiliated with WotC as playtester, and co-writer of the new D&D film, speculates that 5th edition will be announced on GenCon this year and released in 2012.
legendsandlabyrinths.com/2011/01/14/dd-5...
5th edition isn't coming until at least 2016. I doubt that it will be rushed and untested like 4th edition was.
That sounds even more speculative. 4E was already running on empty after PHB3. They restarted the engine with Essentials. So until 2016 what are they going to release? Will we see the Essential version of the psion and the shardmind? In 2013 I guess. That leaves 3 more years filled with more weird looking humanoids so everybody's demand for exciting new races is met. We've already had walking crystals - what about mud, antimatter or electricity, or perhaps humans with horseheads instead of cows. And yes, there are also a few role/primary stat combos unexplored. For example, I believe we haven't seen a CHA based striker yet. Also power sources. We need more of them, just like the Barbarian who isn't martial, or Swordmages who hit with their brain.
I think they are done with it and redoing the whole thing, right now.
2012 will bring 4.5E
i bet they're working on it at this very moment. release cuts are always a big sign. BUT its not going to be 5E, im forseeing a 4e/essentials hybrid that can finally consolodate these two product streams into one coherent edition that leaves less confusion for new players.
2012 will bring 4.5E
While I wouldn't mind, rule out seeing, or even be surprised, at an announcement of 5e....
I'll laugh my ass off if they successfully pull the .5 scam on all of you again.
As for wether or not I'd consider buying 5e (whenever it comes)? For me to do so it'd have to be ALOT different from 4e/Essentials. I am not a fan of this edition - as either a DM or a player.
I will not buy it if it involves card elements.
I won't even bother with it at all if it's purely digital.
i bet they're working on it at this very moment. release cuts are always a big sign. BUT its not going to be 5E, im forseeing a 4e/essentials hybrid that can finally consolodate these two product streams into one coherent edition that leaves less confusion for new players.
2012 will bring 4.5E
While I wouldn't mind, rule out seeing, or even be surprised, at an announcement of 5e....
I'll laugh my ass off if they successfully pull the .5 scam on all of you again.
As for wether or not I'd consider buying 5e (whenever it comes)? For me to do so it'd have to be ALOT different from 4e/Essentials. I am not a fan of this edition - as either a DM or a player.
I will not buy it if it involves card elements.
I won't even bother with it at all if it's purely digital.
if there is a CCG element to it im going to throw my head in the sand and pretend it never happened
i for one have really shined up to 4e and id love to see an expansion and improvement on its elements.
1. Wizards already knows that the 4e playerbase was diminished due to competition with 3.5 and pathfinder. This is evident by the direction and marketing they took with Essentials. There's no way they would launch 5e and then have to compete against 4e as well.
2. Wizards is obviously afraid of backlash over launching a new edition so soon. If they thought that a new edition would be good for sales they wouldn't have striven so hard to push the idea that Essentials, despite having a different game aethstetic, was most definitely not a new edition. If they had thought that a new edition would fix their sales problems, Essentials would have been branded as 4.5.
3. The Virtual Table Top and Online Monster Builder that they currently have in closed beta testing, and the online character builder which is still essentially in an open beta are all build around 4e. They already got enough flak over dropping the downloadable character builder. Do you really think they would essentially scrap all their current half finished tools?
4. If WOTC/Hasbro thought D&D was still a viable line that could be made healthy with a new edition they wouldn't have cancelled the miniatures line, and they wouldn't be pushing back non-edition dependent products like the tilesets. They also wouldn't be cutting books last minute. Those are signs of a company with a dead product on their hands... not a product that's got customer support for yet another relaunch.
5. And the absolute biggest reason why 5e isn't coming is because WOTC/Hasbro just tried using a reboot/repackaging of the game to drum up sales, and it failed. What do you think Essentials was? It had a new boxed starter set, new starter books, a new style of play, new material presentation, and new in-store support built only around it. It doesn't matter that it was technically all still compatible with 4e. When it came to drawing in new customers, the goal of Essentials was to push all the same buttons that the launch of a new edition would. And it obviously failed to drum up any significant new sales. The Essentials format wasn't even able to support one book past the initial Essential line launch. That right there means that there simply isn't a market out there for a new, repackaged launch of D&D. If Essentials sales had been enough to at least support a few post-essentials books before the wind down then maybe you could blame it on the crunch of Essentials and 4e and claim a new edition with new rules would reinvigorate sales, but that didn't happen. The supposed untapped market of new and lapsed players obviously didn't even give essentials a chance. If that market even exists, why would it suddenly give 5e a chance? Or better yet, why would WOTC/Hasbro, after seeing Essentials fail, think that by doing the same thing right away again stuff would suddenly turn around?
I think the far more likely scenario is that D&D is simply going to be put on the back burner for quite some time. In fact I wouldn't be surprised is WOTC/Hasbro blames part of the failure of 4e on its release coming too close on the heels of 3.0/3.5. My guess is that the D&D division of WOTC will be scaled back in size until it matches the now much smaller market, and the launch of 5e will be pushed far into the future.
"Will Essentials significantly boost our sales and expand our consumer base into untapped markets?"
*shakes 8-ball*
"Sources say Yes."
"Alright guys, let's do this!"
Your points are well taken. I would be more reassured if
1) Wotc listened to it's customers.
2) Able to understood what the customers are saying
and
3) Will act in a logical manner based on the first two points.
However, if the past decade (and certainly the past five years at least) are any indication,
Wotc:
1) doesn't
2) unable
3) won't
Thus your post doesn't reassure me in the slightest.
-Polaris
I wouldn't mind 5e in 2012. I have a ton of 4e stuff. I like additional options.
You do know the world ends in 2012, right?
Instead here's what will happen. They've now got a new set of core rulebooks, Essentials, which provides a more iconic, slightly faster paced, and easier to access version of the game. They have DDI. The way forward is obvious. Why is PF giving 4e a run for its money? Adventures, pure and simple, coupled with a well-crafted classic fantasy world ready-made to run them in.
So, what does that mix indicate? What do you do with 4e? First you compete with your main competitor on his own ground. Second you do it better by eliminating distribution costs with DDI. Third you sell physical products that play off that and support it. And obviously fourth you keep going full tilt on better DDI tools.
So what have we seen? Cutting of a couple products which don't align with that, coupled with the continued release of a product which DOES align with that, Heroes of Shadow. Increased work and focus on DDI. Release of the MV: Threats product which works with a fleshing out and fully realizing of PoL into a full fledged campaign. I wouldn't be surprised if they were to leverage the VTT into a way to very easily and quickly get into a new set of excellent modules which compete with the Paizo APs. WotC has the money and expertise to pull this off. They can afford freelancers and have been building up quite a stable of them lately.
What they won't do is make an incompatible break with the existing core rules. They may well push the system even more in the direction of faster play and a bit looser approach to the system coupled with easy packaged builds. I'd expect to see a very modest number of additional Essentials-like releases of crunch books, but only in very modest numbers, maybe 2-3 a year. MME will go on DDI and there will be more wacky rare fantastic magic items. The revamped ritual system designed for Heroes of Sword and Spell or the "Unearthed Arcana" book will see light there as well. It will allow for a bit stronger and more off-the-wall magic for those desiring it. This stuff will all be DDI and there will be various other articles filling in the cracks and adding momentum to that. It won't be 5th edition, but it will realign 4e with the perceived desires of the PF type crowd for a less buttoned-down style of play, but offered in a modular form that allows a wide range of options in game style.
Remember, you heard it here. ;)
Oh, and where did this "Essentials did badly" meme come from? I call [CITATION NEEDED] on that baseless speculation.
Postronica,
Your points are well taken. I would be more reassured if
1) Wotc listened to it's customers.
2) Able to understood what the customers are saying
and
3) Will act in a logical manner based on the first two points.
However, if the past decade (and certainly the past five years at least) are any indication,
Wotc:
1) doesn't
2) unable
3) won't
Thus your post doesn't reassure me in the slightest.
-Polaris
The problem is that here is what you really mean when you say these things (my changes in bold):
"I would be more reassured if
1) Wotc listened to me.
2) Able to understood what I am saying
and
3) Will do what I want."
The other problem is that what the customers want is lots of high quality products matching exactly what they personally desire and practically given away for free. I think the most logical explanation is that WotC does listen to its customers, that you don't actually know what the majority of customers want more than they do, but unfortunately (for WotC) the past years have seen the worst economic depression in America since the Great Depression. As a result, people are less likely to spend money on non-essential (ha!) goods, including D&D. Add in the ease of illegal downloads and the old "Get Everything For Just $10" Character Builder, and it is no surprise that their sales would be going down.
D&D has always been a game that is playable with just the 3 core books, and 4E is no exception. So when you don't have money to spend, you will probably stop buying new books and just be happy playing with what you have.
But if it is easier for you to just say that all the troubles are because people don't listen to you, go right ahead.
Now that was just rude.
It is well known that Wotc hasn't communicated with anyone very well of late, nor have they been particularly responsive to communication, and when they have it's often been with seemly bizzarre conclusions about what communication meant. None of this has anything to do with me or my personal opinions which I carefully left out of it.
My POINT was this: I wouldn't be at all suprised to see Wotc make another seemingly silly decision (such as starting a new edition) on top of the silly decisions that have already been made such as being TOO afraid of "free" or "pirated" content when anyone with any computer savvy at all knows that stopping piracy is basically impossible, and it's usually not worth the pain to you legitamate customers to try (see the Music Industry as exhibit A).
-Polaris
I wouldn't mind - the rules as they are satisfy me. I second the mantra that we could use better adventures. It's the only way to attack Paizo, and perhaps Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying as well. All I hear is that the Paizo adventures are so awesome. Perhaps WotC has made a mistake by hiring too many game designers and not enough gifted fantasy authors. Perhaps they should have shelled out modules every month rather than fluff books and new classes.
Ever since D&D went beyond Gary Gygax living room and entered the corporate space it's driven by business decisions, and a business without sales (because everybody has already bought the product) and no new products (because they fear it's going to compete with their own stuff and drives loyal customers away) is in trouble as we all know.
Arthizoo,
Now that was just rude.
It is well known that Wotc hasn't communicated with anyone very well of late, nor have they been particularly responsive to communication, and when they have it's often been with seemly bizzarre conclusions about what communication meant. None of this has anything to do with me or my personal opinions which I carefully left out of it.
My POINT was this: I wouldn't be at all suprised to see Wotc make another seemingly silly decision (such as starting a new edition) on top of the silly decisions that have already been made such as being TOO afraid of "free" or "pirated" content when anyone with any computer savvy at all knows that stopping piracy is basically impossible, and it's usually not worth the pain to you legitamate customers to try (see the Music Industry as exhibit A).
-Polaris
No, Artihezoo got your number. You WANT WotC to make bad business decisions (EX. do nothing to stop piracy) because what you want isn't feasable for WotC to do. Fortunately, WotC knows that listening to customers' unfiltered requests leads to 600 page hardcover books like "Dwarven Wizards that Prepare Spells by Killing Other PCs" that lead to bankruptcy and leave no-one happy.
I guess the best way to stop piracy is to not produce anything, right?
This isn't T$R, Wizards isn't gonna produce Kit Books of a narrow scope like they did. That is what Dragon is for.
Changing the CB like they did made it so that no one, Pirates or customers, wants to use it. Pushing back books and changing formats (because of the less than steller sales of Essentials) doesn't mean that they are thinking about pirate proof formats.
heroes of sword and spell isnt more options...its....a CONVERSION DOCUMENT
*gets chills*
Arthizoo,
Now that was just rude.
It is well known that Wotc hasn't communicated with anyone very well of late, nor have they been particularly responsive to communication, and when they have it's often been with seemly bizzarre conclusions about what communication meant. None of this has anything to do with me or my personal opinions which I carefully left out of it.
My POINT was this: I wouldn't be at all suprised to see Wotc make another seemingly silly decision (such as starting a new edition) on top of the silly decisions that have already been made such as being TOO afraid of "free" or "pirated" content when anyone with any computer savvy at all knows that stopping piracy is basically impossible, and it's usually not worth the pain to you legitamate customers to try (see the Music Industry as exhibit A).
-Polaris
No, Artihezoo got your number. You WANT WotC to make bad business decisions (EX. do nothing to stop piracy) because what you want isn't feasable for WotC to do. Fortunately, WotC knows that listening to customers' unfiltered requests leads to 600 page hardcover books like "Dwarven Wizards that Prepare Spells by Killing Other PCs" that lead to bankruptcy and leave no-one happy.
I'm sure that neither you or Artihezoo knows Polaris personally, so your jaded suspicions concerning his motives are not necessary. Let's leave them at the door.
That said, Polaris is pretty much right. At this point, nothing would surprise me either. WotC doesn't really inspire a sense of competence or of good faith in me, or in other people. I don't know the particulars about managing a business like this but I just get the impression that WotC is like some great beast with no head, wandering around and aimlessly bumping into things. And those things are knives. So that every time it bumps into them it hurts itself.
Appreciate my subtlety.
Arthizoo,
Now that was just rude.
It is well known that Wotc hasn't communicated with anyone very well of late, nor have they been particularly responsive to communication, and when they have it's often been with seemly bizzarre conclusions about what communication meant. None of this has anything to do with me or my personal opinions which I carefully left out of it.
My POINT was this: I wouldn't be at all suprised to see Wotc make another seemingly silly decision (such as starting a new edition) on top of the silly decisions that have already been made such as being TOO afraid of "free" or "pirated" content when anyone with any computer savvy at all knows that stopping piracy is basically impossible, and it's usually not worth the pain to you legitamate customers to try (see the Music Industry as exhibit A).
-Polaris
No, Artihezoo got your number. You WANT WotC to make bad business decisions (EX. do nothing to stop piracy) because what you want isn't feasable for WotC to do. Fortunately, WotC knows that listening to customers' unfiltered requests leads to 600 page hardcover books like "Dwarven Wizards that Prepare Spells by Killing Other PCs" that lead to bankruptcy and leave no-one happy.
I'm sure that neither you or Artihezoo knows Polaris personally, so your jaded suspicions concerning his motives are not necessary. Let's leave them at the door.
That said, Polaris is pretty much right. At this point, nothing would surprise me either. WotC doesn't really inspire a sense of competence or of good faith in me, or in other people. I don't know the particulars about managing a business like this but I just get the impression that WotC is like some great beast with no head, wandering around and aimlessly bumping into things. And those things are knives. So that every time it bumps into them it hurts itself.
Appreciate my subtlety.
Yes. I agree with Polaris on his post before being edited.
Arthizoo,
Now that was just rude.
It is well known that Wotc hasn't communicated with anyone very well of late, nor have they been particularly responsive to communication, and when they have it's often been with seemly bizzarre conclusions about what communication meant. None of this has anything to do with me or my personal opinions which I carefully left out of it.
My POINT was this: I wouldn't be at all suprised to see Wotc make another seemingly silly decision (such as starting a new edition) on top of the silly decisions that have already been made such as being TOO afraid of "free" or "pirated" content when anyone with any computer savvy at all knows that stopping piracy is basically impossible, and it's usually not worth the pain to you legitamate customers to try (see the Music Industry as exhibit A).
-Polaris
No, Artihezoo got your number. You WANT WotC to make bad business decisions (EX. do nothing to stop piracy) because what you want isn't feasable for WotC to do. Fortunately, WotC knows that listening to customers' unfiltered requests leads to 600 page hardcover books like "Dwarven Wizards that Prepare Spells by Killing Other PCs" that lead to bankruptcy and leave no-one happy.
I'm sure that neither you or Artihezoo knows Polaris personally, so your jaded suspicions concerning his motives are not necessary. Let's leave them at the door.
That said, Polaris is pretty much right. At this point, nothing would surprise me either. WotC doesn't really inspire a sense of competence or of good faith in me, or in other people. I don't know the particulars about managing a business like this but I just get the impression that WotC is like some great beast with no head, wandering around and aimlessly bumping into things. And those things are knives. So that every time it bumps into them it hurts itself.
Appreciate my subtlety.
WotC has produced the best RPG material in the past decade. They push in the right directions when others are too afraid or close-minded.
If you want to defend a random poster over a company with an excellent trackrecord, you don't know Polaris.
WotC has produced the best RPG material in the past decade. They push in the right directions when others are too afraid or close-minded.
WotC created what you think is a great game. That doesn't excuse their bungling up to this point (and likely beyond).
You've argued with Polaris before and don't like him. That doesn't mean he's wrong all the time or you get to excuse his points with remarks about his supposed intentions.
If you want to defend a random poster over a company with an excellent trackrecord, you don't know Polaris.
I don't want to defend anyone. I just don't want to see nonsense posted here. I want to read the discussion without coming across some useless drivel that marginalizes anyone that disagrees with you.
"WotC doesn't listen to their customers."
How insightful.
WotC created what you think is a great game. That doesn't excuse their bungling up to this point (and likely beyond).
You've argued with Polaris before and don't like him. That doesn't mean he's wrong all the time or you get to excuse his points with remarks about his supposed intentions.
I don't want to defend anyone. I just don't want to see nonsense posted here. I want to read the discussion without coming across some useless drivel that marginalizes anyone that disagrees with you.
"WotC doesn't listen to their customers."
How insightful.
Open-minded means listening to each other. I listen to people. When what I hear has no basis in reality, I tell people that. When they choose to persist in exagerrating the bad and minimizing the positive, I point out the flaws.
Keep in mind what thread you're posting in: a prediction that 5ed will come out next year based on a 1 paragraph blog from someone who does not work in Renton. No proof, no evidence, and so many chime in choosing to believe this is true because they want it to be true. Post after post of self-confirming opinions giving them the illusion that, if enough people believe it, it must be true.
It is not true. Show me evidence. Give me something other than your blinding hatred of WotC, and I'll be open-minded.
Open-minded means listening to each other. I listen to people. When what I hear has no basis in reality, I tell people that. When they choose to persist in exagerrating the bad and minimizing the positive, I point out the flaws.
Except you have done none of that here. As I said, I deliberately kept my personal opinions out of my post. I was merely commenting of Wotc's lack of faith and trust by many of my fellow gamers (many of whom disagree with me passionately on other issues). Basically I have no faith that Wotc knows what it's doing and I am far from alone. Thus getting back to the crux of my point (which I would appreciate being discussed rather than me personally), while it's true for many and good reasons (many of which were listed) that Wotc should not make a new edition so soon, given their recent track record I for one would not be suprised if they did.
This isn't because I think Wotc is being malicious. It's because I suspect that Wotc is incompetant.
-Polaris
*SOYLENT GREEN MOMENT*
heroes of sword and spell isnt more options...its....a CONVERSION DOCUMENT
*gets chills*
Which is basically what I wanted all along. When Essentials was released, I simply wanted a conversion document released on DDI to bridge the two together. I wasn't against having it in a book, but I really didn't want to wait for it. Now that the book is cancelled, I'll probably have to wait longer than before just to get a conversion document. Oh well.
Well, i`m still not seeing my necromancer class in a manner that is better than a flavoured wizard. A while edition without that satisfaction and probably the whole of 5th edition too. before it becomes a reality.
Essentials is a step in the right direction for getting some of the lost fanbase back, but its far from enough. 5th edition will need to be a much bigger step back than essentials was if they want to fix the damage.
> If WOTC/Hasbro thought D&D was still a viable line that could be made healthy
> with a new edition they wouldn't have cancelled the miniatures line,
The miniatures line is a separate beast and had been heading for trouble even before 4E's launch. The problems there come down to it no longer being as cost-competitive (which has been reasonably established elsewhere) and the glut of existing miniatures on the secondary market probably doesn't make it any easier to push new ones.
> and they wouldn't be pushing back non-edition dependent products like the
> tilesets.
There were production and shipping problems with at least one of the tilesets toward the end of last year, and it's more likely that this is also responsible for the latest one's delay.
WotC created what you think is a great game. That doesn't excuse their bungling up to this point (and likely beyond).
You've argued with Polaris before and don't like him. That doesn't mean he's wrong all the time or you get to excuse his points with remarks about his supposed intentions.
I don't know what an MuP is, nor is Polaris a random poster to me. Further, I don't want to defend anyone. I just don't want to see nonsense posted here. I want to read the discussion without coming across some useless drivel that marginalizes anyone that disagrees with you.
"WotC doesn't listen to their customers."
How insightful.
Open-minded means listening to each other. I listen to people. When what I hear has no basis in reality, I tell people that. When they choose to persist in exagerrating the bad and minimizing the positive, I point out the flaws.
Keep in mind what thread you're posting in: a prediction that 5ed will come out next year based on a 1 paragraph blog from someone who does not work in Renton. No proof, no evidence, and so many chime in choosing to believe this is true because they want it to be true. Post after post of self-confirming opinions giving them the illusion that, if enough people believe it, it must be true.
It is not true. Show me evidence. Give me something other than your blinding hatred of WotC, and I'll be open-minded.
Where do you see blinding hatred? I don't have blinding hatred for anyone, let alone the company that makes the rpg game I play. Before you claim to listen, actually listen. I didn't say that 5th edition was coming, or that I believe the speculation.
I have implied that WotC is incompetent, which I believe they are. I have said that they do not inspire faith in some of their consumers (myself included), which is a fact (there's plenty of threads and posts to back this up). I have concluded that, as Polaris originally said, I too would not be surprised if they did something crazy like release a new edition. That's the truth. I wouldn't be surprised.
My opinions of WotC can hardly be considered blinding hatred. It's criticism, but there's nothing wrong with criticism. In fact, it's constructive. It helps. It makes things better sometimes.
Open-minded means listening to each other. I listen to people. When what I hear has no basis in reality, I tell people that. When they choose to persist in exagerrating the bad and minimizing the positive, I point out the flaws.
Except you have done none of that here. As I said, I deliberately kept my personal opinions out of my post. I was merely commenting of Wotc's lack of faith and trust by many of my fellow gamers (many of whom disagree with me passionately on other issues). Basically I have no faith that Wotc knows what it's doing and I am far from alone. Thus getting back to the crux of my point (which I would appreciate being discussed rather than me personally), while it's true for many and good reasons (many of which were listed) that Wotc should not make a new edition so soon, given their recent track record I for one would not be suprised if they did.
This isn't because I think Wotc is being malicious. It's because I suspect that Wotc is incompetant.
-Polaris
Alright then. Allow me to bump this thread after GenCon and we can continue talking then.
Well, new edition or not, all I know is I can't pick up any 5th ed. books. I mean, I haven't even sat down to a long running 4e campaign yet.
I can't either, but that's neither here nor there. I can't play because I live in a backwater southern town that is 30+ miles away from the nearest game shop. The last game I played was 30 miles away. I'm sorry but even when I was employed I couldn't afford that kind of gas. The VT is the only way I can play, but it seems that they are going to cripple everything else before I find a steady group, either that or raise the price of the subscription to where it would no longer be viable for me.
I'd probably hit up Amazon.com for the used copies of the newest edition, but with WotC in the state it is in, I'm not too keen on wasting more money...
Well, new edition or not, all I know is I can't pick up any 5th ed. books. I mean, I haven't even sat down to a long running 4e campaign yet.
Me neither. Not primarily because the funds aren't there, but more specifically because I decided that 4th Edition would be my return to the game and that I would see it through as best that I could. I've done that and my wife has been very patient with me and even purchased several books for me as gifts. If I were to just start over with a new edition right now, she'd be ok with it but she wouldn't really understand the need for it--nor would I.
I'm still not convinced that there will be a 5th edition--at least in the form that we're used to. I think that evolution in the game is going to go hand in hand with compatibility. We might see a revised Player's Handbook in the near future, but I bet it's based on the same mechanics as 4th edition. Essentials may already be one of those evolutions, but I bet it's not the last. Yes, they'll find a way to call these new books the PHB, MM and DMG or the recognizable equivalent that signifies these as the new status quo of Core D&D, but I bet compatibility with older products will still be there in some capacity.
I think it would be foolish for them to make further major changes at this point. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean they won't, and the signs are that something big is coming.
Well, i`m still not seeing my necromancer class in a manner that is better than a flavoured wizard. A while edition without that satisfaction {snip}
Nothing against you in particular, but what the gorram heck is up with all the people complaining and begging and crying for a Necromancer? Really? Is it a horde of lost souls from Guild Wars looking to scratch their minions and curse itches until Guild Wars 2? Do people have a hard on for Evil? Are you just looking to make like the female half of the canine species?
If done right.
The current execution is looking like a major disappointment.
OK then, some good points here. If the cancellations don't mean a new edition, then perhaps they are really putting some things on the backburner. This would also mean the release of staff because there is no R&D needed anymore for the essentials shardmind.
I wouldn't mind - the rules as they are satisfy me. I second the mantra that we could use better adventures. It's the only way to attack Paizo, and perhaps Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying as well. All I hear is that the Paizo adventures are so awesome. Perhaps WotC has made a mistake by hiring too many game designers and not enough gifted fantasy authors. Perhaps they should have shelled out modules every month rather than fluff books and new classes.
Ever since D&D went beyond Gary Gygax living room and entered the corporate space it's driven by business decisions, and a business without sales (because everybody has already bought the product) and no new products (because they fear it's going to compete with their own stuff and drives loyal customers away) is in trouble as we all know.
Perhaps surprising to some, there seems to be no release of staff. So, these changes have more to do with reorganizing, and less to do with downsizing. If anything, the reorganizations are a healthy sign of reevaluating priorities.
There's no way 5e is coming anytime soon...
5. And the absolute biggest reason why 5e isn't coming is because WOTC/Hasbro just tried using a reboot/repackaging of the game to drum up sales, and it failed. What do you think Essentials was? It had a new boxed starter set, new starter books, a new style of play, new material presentation, and new in-store support built only around it. It doesn't matter that it was technically all still compatible with 4e. When it came to drawing in new customers, the goal of Essentials was to push all the same buttons that the launch of a new edition would. And it obviously failed to drum up any significant new sales. The Essentials format wasn't even able to support one book past the initial Essential line launch. That right there means that there simply isn't a market out there for a new, repackaged launch of D&D. If Essentials sales had been enough to at least support a few post-essentials books before the wind down then maybe you could blame it on the crunch of Essentials and 4e and claim a new edition with new rules would reinvigorate sales, but that didn't happen. The supposed untapped market of new and lapsed players obviously didn't even give essentials a chance. If that market even exists, why would it suddenly give 5e a chance? Or better yet, why would WOTC/Hasbro, after seeing Essentials fail, think that by doing the same thing right away again stuff would suddenly turn around?
Quoted for truth.
Oh, and where did this "Essentials did badly" meme come from? I call [CITATION NEEDED] on that baseless speculation.
Here is some empirical proof: actual downloadable free torrents of the Essentials books are non-existent. (Do not be fooled by Google searches that show the innumerable sites that merely repeat search attempts on their pages.) I doubt unfortunately that this is a good sign (that pirates are somehow incapable of scanning and uploading the books). I reason that it shows a complete lack of interest in these books. Compare this to the many easily accessible torrents of pre-Essentials books. Compare this to the fact that even rather narrowly focused books like Dark Sun were torrented within days of release.
Mind you I typed in one of the book names and I did find several places torrenting the books. It wasn't that hard really. So in short 1) your evidence is wash and 2) piracy is no way to measure how well something sells.
Yes, AD&D.
An Ad&D line with mechanics more close to 3.5 or more difficult game, and d&d 4th game style going to ...I don´t know, but it could be going to old school game too. Or the reverse...
In synthesis:
An Ad&d for gronards, hard-rules and simulationist (Just for men)
A D&D for new gamers and "gamist" (Powers & Flowers)
So you could erase the competency...
...Oh my god...
...Wizard, can you give me a JOB please!!!? I´m going to make you very rich!!!
Sorry, explain this in english is hard for me.
Regards and all the best
Both the Essentials Compendium and the Monster Vault are selling well, but these books are appropriate for original 4e too, as well as for essentials. Similarly, the Red Box is selling well, but this uses neither the original nor the essential design philosophy. So, essentials products that arent decisively essential, do well.
Note, these hourly Amazon rankings seem to have significant fluctuations, so take them with a grain of salt. Still, the original books seem to be outlasting the essential books.
Unfortunately for me because I prefer 4e much more than 3e, Pathfinder 3e seems to be doing as well as D&D 4e. I suspect the confusion surrounding the release of Essentials hurt all 4e sales generally due to the doubt about whether the original books would remain valid or not. This is a result of weakening communication by WotC, thus not bringing the 4e customers on board for the changes to the design philosophy, before releasing the essentials products. One thing that Pathfinder has being doing right is actually asking their customer base what they want - and actually implementing their answers. Pathfinder has strong communication plus the advantage of a conservative customer base that tends to agree against change. Things are a bit more challenging for 4e, but 4e evolution can potentially outlast 3e fossilization. 4e started off with good communication, its customers are ethusiastic, and there is every reason to continue the policy of open communication.
Good communication about products helps predict the demand for the products, and optimizes profitability.
I think it could be a good idea if wizard launch Advanced Dungeons & Dragons again.
Yes, AD&D.
An Ad&D line with mechanics more close to 3.5 or more difficult game, and d&d 4th game style going to ...I don´t know, but it could be going to old school game too. Or the reverse...
In synthesis:
An Ad&d for gronards, hard-rules and simulationist (Just for men)
A D&D for new gamers and "gamist" (Powers & Flowers)
So you could erase the [competition] ...
...Oh my god...
...Wizard, can you give me a JOB please!!!? I´m going to make you very rich!!!
Sorry, explain this in english is hard for me.
Regards and all the best
That is an interesting idea. WotC can simultaneously market two versions of D&D: a nostalgic 'grognard' simulationist version and an evolving 'youth' gamist version.
• The grognard version could promote the Greyhawk campaign setting, and might cut directly into the Pathfinder customer base.
• The future version (which is pretty much what 4e is already) would continue fullspeed ahead, so 4e lovers continue in their satisfaction. The streamlining of the 4e future version will intentionally make easier the transition into RPG video games to reach wider audiences.
Before WotC introduces any drastic changes, they must communicate what the intentions are and see ahead of time if there is a profitable interest in such a plan.
I wouldn't call that emprirical proof. That would be like saying diamonds are selling poorly because no matter where you go you can't find as many stolen diamonds.
Mind you I typed in one of the book names and I did find several places torrenting the books. It wasn't that hard really. So in short 1) your evidence is wash and 2) piracy is no way to measure how well something sells.
Those are links to non-functioning or non-existing torrents. Such sites just want you to visit and subscribe to their site.
The fact remains that ALL previous 4e books are readily available in free easily accessible pirated torrents. That shows demand.
Thievery and crime in the physical world works the same way. Narcotics are readily available because the demand is huge. But I doubt there is a big black market in stolen toilet brushes.
I wouldn't call that emprirical proof. That would be like saying diamonds are selling poorly because no matter where you go you can't find as many stolen diamonds.
Mind you I typed in one of the book names and I did find several places torrenting the books. It wasn't that hard really. So in short 1) your evidence is wash and 2) piracy is no way to measure how well something sells.
Those are links to non-functioning or non-existing torrents. Such sites just want you to visit and subscribe to their site.
The fact remains that ALL previous 4e books are readily available in free easily accessible pirated torrents. That shows demand.
Thievery and crime in the physical world works the same way. Narcotics are readily available because the demand is huge. But I doubt there is a big black market in stolen toilet brushes.
My point is that it is speculation. You did not tell me whether they were selling poorly or they were making money off of it. You said that no-one is stealing it, thus it is doing badly. And you said that as fact.
Maybe to get my point across better I should say this: to me what you are saying is the equivalent of that since I can't find anyone giving away stolen McDonalds in my town than McDonalds isn't selling well and the fact that no-one is offering me stolen McDonalds means that McDonalds is in trouble.
I wouldn't call that emprirical proof. That would be like saying diamonds are selling poorly because no matter where you go you can't find as many stolen diamonds.
Mind you I typed in one of the book names and I did find several places torrenting the books. It wasn't that hard really. So in short 1) your evidence is wash and 2) piracy is no way to measure how well something sells.
Those are links to non-functioning or non-existing torrents. Such sites just want you to visit and subscribe to their site.
The fact remains that ALL previous 4e books are readily available in free easily accessible pirated torrents. That shows demand.
Thievery and crime in the physical world works the same way. Narcotics are readily available because the demand is huge. But I doubt there is a big black market in stolen toilet brushes.
My point is that it is speculation. You did not tell me whether they were selling poorly or they were making money off of it. You said that no-one is stealing it, thus it is doing badly. And you said that as fact.
Maybe to get my point across better I should say this: to me what you are saying is the equivalent of that since I can't find anyone giving away stolen McDonalds in my town than McDonalds isn't selling well and the fact that no-one is offering me stolen McDonalds means that McDonalds is in trouble.
I agree with Hipps argument about using piracy to measure general interest (and not to measure paying customers).
The fact is, pirated digital versions of essential books do already exist. But it may be, the pirates themselves seem to lack interest in acquiring and supplying it.
I have to say one more time. WotC is making a mistake every time they make a sudden drastic change without communicating with their customers to get them feeling positive and excited about the change.
I wouldn't call that emprirical proof. That would be like saying diamonds are selling poorly because no matter where you go you can't find as many stolen diamonds.
Mind you I typed in one of the book names and I did find several places torrenting the books. It wasn't that hard really. So in short 1) your evidence is wash and 2) piracy is no way to measure how well something sells.
Those are links to non-functioning or non-existing torrents. Such sites just want you to visit and subscribe to their site.
The fact remains that ALL previous 4e books are readily available in free easily accessible pirated torrents. That shows demand.
Thievery and crime in the physical world works the same way. Narcotics are readily available because the demand is huge. But I doubt there is a big black market in stolen toilet brushes.
My point is that it is speculation. You did not tell me whether they were selling poorly or they were making money off of it. You said that no-one is stealing it, thus it is doing badly. And you said that as fact.
Maybe to get my point across better I should say this: to me what you are saying is the equivalent of that since I can't find anyone giving away stolen McDonalds in my town than McDonalds isn't selling well and the fact that no-one is offering me stolen McDonalds means that McDonalds is in trouble.
I agree with Hipps argument about using piracy to measure general interest (and not to measure paying customers).
The fact is, pirated digital versions of essential books do already exist. But it may be, the pirates themselves seem to lack interest in acquiring and supplying it.
I have to say one more time. WotC is making a mistake every time they make a sudden drastic change without communicating with their customers to get them feeling positive and excited about the change.
To you. But to me "people try to steal my crap" is not a viable measure of wealth or success. I prefer numbers such as Gross Profit, wealth, etc.
I wouldn't call that emprirical proof. That would be like saying diamonds are selling poorly because no matter where you go you can't find as many stolen diamonds.
Mind you I typed in one of the book names and I did find several places torrenting the books. It wasn't that hard really. So in short 1) your evidence is wash and 2) piracy is no way to measure how well something sells.
Those are links to non-functioning or non-existing torrents. Such sites just want you to visit and subscribe to their site.
The fact remains that ALL previous 4e books are readily available in free easily accessible pirated torrents. That shows demand.
Thievery and crime in the physical world works the same way. Narcotics are readily available because the demand is huge. But I doubt there is a big black market in stolen toilet brushes.
My point is that it is speculation. You did not tell me whether they were selling poorly or they were making money off of it. You said that no-one is stealing it, thus it is doing badly. And you said that as fact.
Maybe to get my point across better I should say this: to me what you are saying is the equivalent of that since I can't find anyone giving away stolen McDonalds in my town than McDonalds isn't selling well and the fact that no-one is offering me stolen McDonalds means that McDonalds is in trouble.
I agree with Hipps argument about using piracy to measure general interest (and not to measure paying customers).
The fact is, pirated digital versions of essential books do already exist. But it may be, the pirates themselves seem to lack interest in acquiring and supplying it.
I have to say one more time. WotC is making a mistake every time they make a sudden drastic change without communicating with their customers to get them feeling positive and excited about the change.
To you. But to me "people try to steal my crap" is not a viable measure of wealth or success. I prefer numbers such as Gross Profit, wealth, etc.
To the contrary.
Once my brother and I were selling a limited edition product. My brother watched excitedly as kids stole it, because not only did it prove interest, but the illicit delight would create more interest, with the thieves serving as an effective ad agency among their friends.
Its a surprising perspective, but within reason, I feel my brother assessed the costs and benefits of that situation accurately.
I wouldn't call that emprirical proof. That would be like saying diamonds are selling poorly because no matter where you go you can't find as many stolen diamonds.
Mind you I typed in one of the book names and I did find several places torrenting the books. It wasn't that hard really. So in short 1) your evidence is wash and 2) piracy is no way to measure how well something sells.
Those are links to non-functioning or non-existing torrents. Such sites just want you to visit and subscribe to their site.
The fact remains that ALL previous 4e books are readily available in free easily accessible pirated torrents. That shows demand.
Thievery and crime in the physical world works the same way. Narcotics are readily available because the demand is huge. But I doubt there is a big black market in stolen toilet brushes.
My point is that it is speculation. You did not tell me whether they were selling poorly or they were making money off of it. You said that no-one is stealing it, thus it is doing badly. And you said that as fact.
Maybe to get my point across better I should say this: to me what you are saying is the equivalent of that since I can't find anyone giving away stolen McDonalds in my town than McDonalds isn't selling well and the fact that no-one is offering me stolen McDonalds means that McDonalds is in trouble.
I agree with Hipps argument about using piracy to measure general interest (and not to measure paying customers).
The fact is, pirated digital versions of essential books do already exist. But it may be, the pirates themselves seem to lack interest in acquiring and supplying it.
I have to say one more time. WotC is making a mistake every time they make a sudden drastic change without communicating with their customers to get them feeling positive and excited about the change.
To you. But to me "people try to steal my crap" is not a viable measure of wealth or success. I prefer numbers such as Gross Profit, wealth, etc.
To the contrary.
Once my brother and I were selling a limited edition product. My brother watched excitedly as kids stole it, because not only did it prove interest, but the illicit delight would create more interest, with the thieves serving as an effective ad agency among their friends.
Its a surprising perspective, but within reason, I feel my brother assessed the costs and benefits of that situation accurately.
But following your logic if no-one tried to steal it then it wouldn't be worth anything.
But following your logic if no-one tried to steal it then it wouldn't be worth anything.
Exactly. Lack of theft evidences lack of monetary value.
Tho there are higher kinds of value, such as compassion.
But following your logic if no-one tried to steal it then it wouldn't be worth anything.
Exactly.
So if I had a Superman #1 and no-one tries to steal it it is worthless? O.o Well no arguing with that Logic I suppose.
I better inform a lot of restaurants that they are broke since I highly doubt anyone tries to steal and sell their food.
The demand itself conveys and even heightens its value.
I bet you, if a restaurant got a reputation for being so delicious customers frequently tried to steal their food, the wider community who are paying customers would become curious about how delicious it can be.
Covering the cost of theft is sort of like paying for advertising.
My nerd rage will be incited if WotC has a colossal failure with the digital side of their product offerings.
Believe me, lots of people want to have (even steal) your Superman 1.
The demand itself conveys and even heightens its value.
I bet you, if a restaurant got a reputation for being so delicious customers frequently tried to steal their food, the wider community who are paying customers would become curious about how delicious it can be.
Covering the cost of theft is sort of like paying for advertising.
My mom is trying to sell her house... and nobody has tried to steal it. Probably no-one will ever try to steal her house. Therefore she won't be able to sell it because it has no worth cause the only way to determine worth is by how much people want to steal it. Got it.
Edit: I'll be sure to tell her to tell the people interested in buying that the house has been burglarized many times... you know to up how much people would be willing to pay for it. FOOL PROOF PLAN!
But following your logic if no-one tried to steal it then it wouldn't be worth anything.
Exactly.
So if I had a Superman #1 and no-one tries to steal it it is worthless? O.o Well no arguing with that Logic I suppose.
I better inform a lot of restaurants that they are broke since I highly doubt anyone tries to steal and sell their food.
Look. The point of my illustration about piracy was to show whether Essentials was as popular as other D&D stuff or not.
WoTC never releases sales information or financial details. We do not have access to total sales figures from various retailers.
We do however have evidence that pirates show less evidence in Essentials than in other D&D stuff.
Similarly, bicycles are targets of thieves in every urban centre. Garbage cans are not. If you leave your locked bicycle out at night in front of your building in a place like Toronto, it has a good chance of being stolen. Contrarywise, I have not heard of people having their garbage cans stolen from their sidewalks.
And yes, theft does occur in restaurants. It is harder to accomplish, but staff sometimes steal food (certainly I knew fellows who stole stuff from the freezers at the McDonald's where they worked) and some customers try to sneak out without paying or pretend to have a legitimate complaint so they can avoid paying.
Internet piracy hwoever is different. Quite simply, popularity can predict whether a free torrent exists. Compare the availability of Star Trek versus that of Emily of New Moon.
As for your point about Superman #1, I never said that any pirate was going to sneak into my apartment and steal my 4e Rules Compendium. I just said that no pirate is going to bother to make a free and accessible torrent.
Just gotta say, the reason the Essentials books haven't been scanned? You have to drop $25 on something you have to tear apart to scan well. The paperbacks are very scan unfriendly, and very few people are willing just to drop $25 for the benefit for some guys on the internet, even if they want a digital copy for themselves.
Indeed. Essentials just are not worth it in the eyes of most people. Therefore the chances diminsih that some pirate will scan and torrent them out of some sense of hacker-information-freedom.
On the other hand, Divine Power and Dark Sun were also only available if you shelled out $30+ and ripped them apart and scanned them. But their popularity meant that the chances were high that soemone would do it (and did).
But following your logic if no-one tried to steal it then it wouldn't be worth anything.
Exactly.
So if I had a Superman #1 and no-one tries to steal it it is worthless? O.o Well no arguing with that Logic I suppose.
I better inform a lot of restaurants that they are broke since I highly doubt anyone tries to steal and sell their food.
Look. The point of my illustration about piracy was to show whether Essentials was as popular as other D&D stuff or not.
WoTC never releases sales information or financial details. We do not have access to total sales figures from various retailers.
We do however have evidence that pirates show less evidence in Essentials than in other D&D stuff.
Similarly, bicycles are targets of thieves in every urban centre. Garbage cans are not. If you leave your locked bicycle out at night in front of your building in a place like Toronto, it has a good chance of being stolen. Contrarywise, I have not heard of people having their garbage cans stolen from their sidewalks.
And yes, theft does occur in restaurants. It is harder to accomplish, but staff sometimes steal food (certainly I knew fellows who stole stuff from the freezers at the McDonald's where they worked) and some customers try to sneak out without paying or pretend to have a legitimate complaint so they can avoid paying.
Internet piracy hwoever is different. Quite simply, popularity can predict whether a free torrent exists. Compare the availability of Star Trek versus that of Emily of New Moon.
As for your point about Superman #1, I never said that any pirate was going to sneak into my apartment and steal my 4e Rules Compendium. I just said that no pirate is going to bother to make a free and accessible torrent.
But following your point if I can't find a torrent of Superman #1 it is worthless because there is no popularity for it.
Hmmm. So this house has power right? And heating? And internet?
Leave my house alone! D:
Wait! My house is valuable now! Yaaaaaaay!
Also, I would think a 5th edition would be much more likely if Essentials had not just rolled out. Not that I am part of the "Essentials is a new Edtion" camp, but it is a new version, and with that new version can the new Rules Compendium. Which was with some very minor tweaks classic 4th ed. I personally don't think that the changes are even big enough to call it 4.5. If we were heading into a new edition, I would think Essentials would have been the time to drop the bomb. Why go to all the trouble to put out this line that is supposed to be your "Evergeen" line, to make things easier for both retailers and fans to figure out what to buy, and then announce its obsolesence 6 or 7 months later?
Please keep in mind that we have a major Con coming up in a couple of weeks, where the various designers and developers that usually walk around with a permanent Silence 15' Radius spell on them will in fact be trapped in rooms with gamers between them and the door. WoTC typcially uses DnD Experience to make major announcements about upcoming products. We should have a better idea then about what is actually coming up for DnD this year.
I personally think that WoTC is going to go with a more diverse lineup going forward. The part of the company that made d20 products was really down to being a one game shop for quite some time. They changed that this past year. I think we are going to seem more games/settings that use the core d20 mechanics, as well as thematic board games and similar prodcuts (see Gama World, Ravenloft, etc). There will probably still be a trickle of new DnD material coming out, but in lesser volume, and they will be looking for more ways to use the IP they currently have.
I think the reason for this is simple. 4th ed is getting, well, bloated, as it is. There are already f#cktons of 4th edition books. Its pretty much a full game. What races would you put in Players Handbook 4? We already have writeups on plant people, walking rock piles, and a species of raven men. Unless you want to turn this into some kind of furry game, and we have one foot in that ditch and the other on a banna peel already, I don't know that we need any more of that. Classes? Between classic 4th and essentials, again where do you go from here? How many divine leader builds do you need? And how do you make them mechanically unique from one another? New classes are going to get either setting specific, or more and more divergent from the original design system of at will/encounter/daily. (which we have already seen with PHB3 classes). And honestly, between 4th ed multiclassing and hybrid, and Essentials oldschool builds, what the heck doyou want that you can't build with existing material and the reskinning of a power or two?
I would like to see more of the classc TSR era games come back like Gamma World has. How about a Boot Hill box? Or Star Frontiers? Or maybe even new design work using d20 4th ed, like maybe a supers game.
Don't get me wrong, I like 4th ed and play it almost every week, but other than maybe a new setting this year and a decent adventure or two I think my needs are mostly met in that department.
I would like to see more of the classc TSR era games come back like Gamma World has. How about a Boot Hill box? Or Star Frontiers? Or maybe even new design work using d20 4th ed, like maybe a supers game.
Don't get me wrong, I like 4th ed and play it almost every week, but other than maybe a new setting this year and a decent adventure or two I think my needs are mostly met in that department.
Star Frontiers, STAR FRONTIERS!? Now you've gone a step too far. That's a foul rumor to start. TSR may have done a few dubious things in its history, but Star Frontiers really was dreck. You need to take that back! ;)
I agree though, 4e as it is right now today more than meets my needs. Our group has managed to run through maybe an odd dozen characters or so. Even without counting hybrids there are 100's of possible builds. It could easily take us another 30 years to work our way through that, lol.
As for your point about Superman #1, I never said that any pirate was going to sneak into my apartment and steal my 4e Rules Compendium. I just said that no pirate is going to bother to make a free and accessible torrent.
But following your point if I can't find a torrent of Superman #1 it is worthless because there is no popularity for it.
You are correct that I need to refine my argument. There are some things which are so rare and valuable that pirates cannot torrent them. What owner of a priceless comic book would scan it and freely distribute it?
Most books and games on the other hand are not nearly as valuable. Therefore rarity based on extreme value does not apply.
Likewise no one can easily steal a house. That is why bicycles are stolen instead: they are valuable but also easily stolen. D&D torrents are both desirable for pirates and easily stolen. Essentials evidently are not desirable enough despite the ease with which they could be scanned.
The essential books have already been scanned and pirated versions exist. It seems the pirates generally dont care enough to supply this available illegal merchandise.
That said, essential seems to be doing well enough. With regard to book sales, essential 4e player books seem competitive with the original 4e player books. No doubt, a significant number of customers are happy with essentials. Its just, essential isnt more popular than the original 4e.
Compatibility to all previous editions? That's highly unlikely. The various editions have too different rules te become compatible to each other, no matter what...
I agree, seems like that would be way more work than it is worth.
Compatibility to all previous editions? That's highly unlikely. The various editions have too different rules te become compatible to each other, no matter what...
I agree, seems like that would be way more work than it is worth.
I dunno. 1e and 2e are quite compatible with each other.
But following your logic if no-one tried to steal it then it wouldn't be worth anything.
I didn't know what to make of the "it's not even being pirated" argument at first, but you're doing a very good job of making their case for them. That statement is pretty obviously true for a consumer product of the same genre and medium that is roughly as stealable as what you're comparing it to.
There are only so many measures we actually have to go by. Of course revenues and sales are the metrics that matter, but we won't get them, so we have to look for indicators. Businesses do this all the time. We now have two indicators, the amazon sales ranking (which someone else posted) and the unpopularity/unavailability of it in a public downloadable format.
if I had a Superman #1 and no-one tries to steal it it is worthless? O.o Well no arguing with that Logic I suppose.
I better inform a lot of restaurants that they are broke since I highly doubt anyone tries to steal and sell their food.
(I can't believe I'm responding to this) This is a false analogy. Superman #1 and restaurant food is a different medium, with different availability, a different theft profile, and a different value proposition.
The mere act of scanning Superman #1 would de-value it. If I wanted to scan it, how would I get ahold of it? Is anyone looking for Superman #1? Is it the physical book as a collector's item that makes it valuable, or is it the actual content (which I imagine hasn't aged well). This is incomparable to, say, HotFK, where the content is the real value, the book isn't going to go up in value so the decrease in value from scanning it is trivial, and it's readily accessible to anyone who wants it. The restaurant food (and house!?) examples are even more ridiculous.
The PHB1/2 or Martial Power, etc, are directly comparable to HotFK. They are the same medium, with the same accessibility, the same value profile, easily copyable with no personal risk, and with a similar type of person interested in them.
As for your point about Superman #1, I never said that any pirate was going to sneak into my apartment and steal my 4e Rules Compendium. I just said that no pirate is going to bother to make a free and accessible torrent.
But following your point if I can't find a torrent of Superman #1 it is worthless because there is no popularity for it.
You are correct that I need to refine my argument. There are some things which are so rare and valuable that pirates cannot torrent them. What owner of a priceless comic book would scan it and freely distribute it?
Most books and games on the other hand are not nearly as valuable. Therefore rarity based on extreme value does not apply.
Likewise no one can easily steal a house. That is why bicycles are stolen instead: they are valuable but also easily stolen. D&D torrents are both desirable for pirates and easily stolen. Essentials evidently are not desirable enough despite the ease with which they could be scanned.
But my point is that to reach the conclusion that Essentials isn't selling well you must make several biased assumptions.
You must first assume that piracy is a valid way of measuring wealth.
Secondly you must assume that the more websites hosting a torrent of something, the more valuable said object is.
Third if there are not alot of torrents you must assume that it is proof that there is no interest from pirates pirating it.
From there you make the final logical jump that because pirates aren't interested than it is selling poorly.
To me that seems like a lot of hoops to go through to prove one point and quite the fallacies to state said leaps as empirical fact. Whether you are correct or incorrect.. I don't know... the thing is neither do you yet you insist on calling it fact.
1977/78: Basic Set and AD&D Begins
1985: Unearthed Arcana
1989: 2nd Edition
1996: Revised 2nd Edition
2000: 3rd Edition
2003: 3.5
2008: 4th Edition
2010: Essentials
Putting out 5E in 2012 would be such a ridiculous acceleration of the game development that it'd be silly. From AD&D to 2E was 12 years. 2E to 3E was 11 years. 3E to 4E was 8 years. Going from 4E to 5E in 4 years? Ridiculous.
A 4E campaign that meets once a week for an average of 3 encounters per session will take roughly 2 years to make it to the end of a campaignof 30 levels (300 to 330 encounters - or 10 to 11 per level, as advised by the DMG). Most people can't manage to play that often. I know a lot of games that started when 4E was released that are still moving along in mid-paragon levels.
I'm NOT saying that WotC doesn't do silly stuff sometimes. However, they're not going to strangle their golden goose by trying to get people to buy 5E when 4E is still so popular. If they switch too early, fewwer people will switch editions. WotC lost a huge number of players to Pathfinder when they went to 4E. If they switched to 5E too early, they'd lose a lot of people to a similar competing product that continues 4E - somehow.
I still think the earliest we could realistically see 4E is 2014 - maybe 2013, but I expect 2015 is more likely. If they produce it in 2012, they'd fragment the player base between Pathfinder, 4E and 5E to such an extent that it'd be ridiculous.
As for your point about Superman #1, I never said that any pirate was going to sneak into my apartment and steal my 4e Rules Compendium. I just said that no pirate is going to bother to make a free and accessible torrent.
But following your point if I can't find a torrent of Superman #1 it is worthless because there is no popularity for it.
You are correct that I need to refine my argument. There are some things which are so rare and valuable that pirates cannot torrent them. What owner of a priceless comic book would scan it and freely distribute it?
Most books and games on the other hand are not nearly as valuable. Therefore rarity based on extreme value does not apply.
Likewise no one can easily steal a house. That is why bicycles are stolen instead: they are valuable but also easily stolen. D&D torrents are both desirable for pirates and easily stolen. Essentials evidently are not desirable enough despite the ease with which they could be scanned.
But my point is that to reach the conclusion that Essentials isn't selling well you must make several biased assumptions.
You must first assume that piracy is a valid way of measuring wealth.
Secondly you must assume that the more websites hosting a torrent of something, the more valuable said object is.
Third if there are not alot of torrents you must assume that it is proof that there is no interest from pirates pirating it.
From there you make the final logical jump that because pirates aren't interested than it is selling poorly.
To me that seems like a lot of hoops to go through to prove one point and quite the fallacies to state said leaps as empirical fact. Whether you are correct or incorrect.. I don't know... the thing is neither do you yet you insist on calling it fact.
Honestly I haven't even seen very credible evidence that they're not available to approximately the same degree as any other 4e book that has been out for 6 months. Trying a few random torrent sites looking for something in my experience isn't really all that accurate an assessment of whether it is out there or not. Sometimes you have to dig for stuff. Sometimes a given thing is less available on a given day for whatever reason. Trackers come and go, seeds come and go. I think you'd have to do a large sampling over a period of time before you could make a credible statement about availability, just like you have to sample a bunch of people's opinions to get a useful idea of public opinion.
All I know is I've bought some Essentials books. I'll probably buy one or two more of them too. Maybe the best measure would be a poll on say Enworld asking how many 4e DMs have each of Essentials and 4e core stuff. At least that might give you a ratio amongst some subgroup of players.
1974 D&D Begins
1977/78: Basic Set and AD&D Begins
1985: Unearthed Arcana
1989: 2nd Edition
1996: Revised 2nd Edition
2000: 3rd Edition
2003: 3.5
2008: 4th Edition2010: Essentials
Want to revise this list a little, if you don't mind.
- 1974- DND (White Box)
- 1977- ADD 1st edition (Blue Box)
- 1981- ADD 1st ed (Magenta box)
- 1983- ADD 1st (Red Box)
- 1985- ADD 1st Unearthed Arcana
- 1989- ADD 2nd Edition
- 1991- Add 2nd Ed Rules Cyclopedia
- 1996- ADD Revised Second Edition
- 2000- 3rd Edition
- 2003- 3.5 Edition
- 2008- 4e
- 2010- Essentials.
I only include "edition changes" that signifigantly alter, or add to the rules.
Really the longest breaks were between 3.5 to 4e, revised 2nd and 3rd, and 1st ed unearthed arcana and 2nd edition.. Before that they were constantly putting out revised and new books that could/should be new editions.
My prediction for 5e. 2016. I also predict WoTC will for all intents and purposes simply stop doing anything with DND sitting on the liscense from 2012-2016, and then announce a new edition to huge fanfare because its been so long.
E5 realeased so soon will cause sells do decrease. players will still fight aobut e3.x and e4 being the best. and there will be no support for e5 due to lack of faith. there will be the arument that just wait 6 months and e6 will be out.
and w to c wont sell dnd either. they will just stop makeing new stuff. and that will be the end of it
no more dnd
Trying to discern the "value" or "success" of a D&D book from the number of different sites that have illegal torrents of it up is just... why? I mean, I'm having trouble coming up with words to adequately describe my utter confusion as to how this could be a serious line of reasoning.
I'm amazed that no one has even mentioned the other possible reason that it is not being pirated like hardcover 4e... it's cheap enough to just buy the books. Most of the pirates use the (lame) excuse that they pirate because the can't afford the books. $20 books make it a lot harder to use that argument.
if I can't find a torrent of Superman #1 it is worthless because there is no popularity for it.
And a torrent of Superman #1 is worthless, unlike a torrent of a D&D book.
Superman #1 is a status symbol. You put it on a shelf where it can impress those you want to impress, and never so much as touch it, much less read it. A torrent of it serves no purpose related to the actual comic. You have little luck in measuring the value of one from the other.
A torrent of a D&D book is consulted much like the book is. You can thus measure the value of one by looking at the other.
my point is that to reach the conclusion that Essentials isn't selling well you must make several biased assumptions.
And each of the assumptions is our default assumption.
To me that seems like a lot of hoops to go through to prove one point and quite the fallacies to state said leaps as empirical fact. Whether you are correct or incorrect.. I don't know... the thing is neither do you yet you insist on calling it fact.
We don't call it fact. We call it evidence, and some of the best [or rather, least bad] that we have. We might call it just a straw in the wind, but that straw can not be dismissed out of hand.
Better would be to post evidence that Essential is actually prospering, or even holding firm. Do you have any such evidence?
The mere act of scanning Superman #1 would de-value it.
Tangent, but...
I have a scan of Superman #1 (and of the first Superman appearance in Action Comics #1) and neither of these issues is worth less at auction than they were before I acquired a scan. (Action Comics #1 sold for $1M in February of 2010, the highest price ever fetched for a comic book.)
I wouldn't mind 5e in 2012. I have a ton of 4e stuff. I like additional options.
You do know the world ends in 2012, right?
Yeah, but not till December 12th.
So we have plenty of time.
I wouldn't mind 5e in 2012. I have a ton of 4e stuff. I like additional options.
You do know the world ends in 2012, right?
Yeah, but not till December 12th.
So we have plenty of time.
If 5th edition is announced for release on December 12th, im building a bunker and stockpiling canned goods.
I wouldn't mind 5e in 2012. I have a ton of 4e stuff. I like additional options.
You do know the world ends in 2012, right?
Yeah, but not till December 12th.
So we have plenty of time.
If 5th edition is announced for release on December 12th, im building a bunker and stockpiling canned goods.
After pre-ordering 5e I hope?
The mere act of scanning Superman #1 would de-value it.
Tangent, but...
I have a scan of Superman #1 (and of the first Superman appearance in Action Comics #1) and neither of these issues is worth less at auction than they were before I acquired a scan. (Action Comics #1 sold for $1M in February of 2010, the highest price ever fetched for a comic book.)
Doesn't merely handling them lower their CGC rating (and thus their value at auction) because you have to unseal them to do so? Or do the CGC people have a "scan my super expensive comic that I'm going to hermetically seal up so that it doesn't get damaged when I want to read its contents" service?
The mere act of scanning Superman #1 would de-value it.
Tangent, but...
I have a scan of Superman #1 (and of the first Superman appearance in Action Comics #1) and neither of these issues is worth less at auction than they were before I acquired a scan. (Action Comics #1 sold for $1M in February of 2010, the highest price ever fetched for a comic book.)
Doesn't merely handling them lower their CGC rating (and thus their value at auction) because you have to unseal them to do so? Or do the CGC people have a "scan my super expensive comic that I'm going to hermetically seal up so that it doesn't get damaged when I want to read its contents" service?
Not if they are handled in a professional manner.
Compatibility to all previous editions? That's highly unlikely. The various editions have too different rules te become compatible to each other, no matter what...
I agree, seems like that would be way more work than it is worth.
I dunno. 1e and 2e are quite compatible with each other.
That's a good point. There's just been such a change from 3 to 4e that I was thinking narrowly. I just hope that we get something that can last more than 2-4 years as a stable game.
5th edition isn't coming anytime soon. Rumors and speculation aside, we already have Essentials that give us Kit Builds and will soon kill off the Shadow Power Source and going to a new edition so soon would be disastrous. Wizards would not only have a half hearted system thrown together quickly, but it would actually tell us that Essentials was nothing more than filler until the next thing. This wasn't received very well when it was done from 3.5 last books and the 4venture snafu. (The dropping of the Star Wars license was also less than stellar) Doing again so soon would not be good business sense.
Essentials sales are fine, just not as big as Wizards hoped it would be. Whether or not the PDF copies are on torrents is immaterial and it is rude to Wizards to mention it on this forum.
1st edition was overall compatible with 2nd edition, but normally there was house rules used and overpowered classes (like the Assassin) was typically banned by good DMs.
Essentials sales are fine, just not as big as Wizards hoped it would be. Whether or not the PDF copies are on torrents is immaterial and it is rude to Wizards to mention it on this forum.
I am bolding the key part of the above statement. In such a case, then, when working for a share holding corporation, Essentials sales are NOT fine. Not making targets is what gets managers fired. Just saying.
As for torrents, while I would never condone illegal activity, torrent activity on related IP items is (one) measure of their popularity and thus should be considered a leading indicator of how well they are moving in the market (but again just one of many indicators).
-Polaris
I'm looking forward to 5th edition. I'm hoping that it will bring back many of the players who left to play pathfinder.
Think it would? I mean, so soon?
Well maybe after two years of writting and testing... Yeah. Maybe then.
You are correct that I need to refine my argument. There are some things which are so rare and valuable that pirates cannot torrent them. What owner of a priceless comic book would scan it and freely distribute it?
I would. The original is a status symbol, the scan a cheap imitation. Besides, if I had a "priceless" comic, you could totally borrow it and read it, provided I got it back in the condition I loaned it to you. Comics are meant to be read. Toys are meant to be played with, etc. Putting something on a pedestal makes it boring.
Also note that for nothing more than kicks I have looked for actual scans of the Essentials books since their release. I found one for the Rules Compendium (and when I checked a week ago it was still there). I don't need it, I did download it once to make sure the link was in fact legit, then deleted it to free up room on my hard drive. The scan was low-res and quite awful, and I have all the revisions I need (including the new DC table included in an issue of Dragon or Dungeon recently). But trying to find any other scans of other Essentials material is harder than finding scans of the tiles (why look for tile scans? To see if they were popular enough to steal, and indeed they are.)
I feel I should mention that I currently have no pirated D&D material on my computer. I indeed look for pirate downloads of different materials (that I have an interest in) to measure how popular it is to the fanbase. But if I want the materials in question, they do me much more good in physical instead of digital form. And printing the entirety of 4th edition would generally cost one more than simply purchasing it.
(confused)
You download torrents to see if a product is popular?
(confused)
+1.
A new edition will be needed to integrate Essentials and the other, older books.
With the delay in the errata that was supposed to bridge the two halves of D&D, the system has become and will continue to be too unwieldly. For example, I have a wizard who had Sleep and Phantom Chasm. Both of these were changed in Essentials. I wouldn't have known that, but for the fact that I bought Essentials. Of course, free errata could have done the same thing, but then I wouldn't have needed to buy Essentials.
All of this will be couched in "new era" for D&D, "making the game better," and so forth. We will be told that "you can continue the play the game the same way," so we're made to feel that we can have their cake and eat it, too, when really, you can't if you want to stay relevant -- or just play a better game. Why would you want to not want to play a better game, after all?
This has happened to countless games before this. I saw it happen to Squad Leader, for example.
My only wish is that they don't screw up the digital tools again. That's my only gripe with WotC really. And I think they totally know it.
I'm looking forward to 5th edition. I'm hoping that it will bring back many of the players who left to play pathfinder.
Think it would? I mean, so soon?Well maybe after two years of writting and testing... Yeah. Maybe then.
well.. If the designers go back to D&D roots and keep that classic feel alive it might.
Essentials sales are fine, just not as big as Wizards hoped it would be. Whether or not the PDF copies are on torrents is immaterial and it is rude to Wizards to mention it on this forum.
I am bolding the key part of the above statement. In such a case, then, when working for a share holding corporation, Essentials sales are NOT fine. Not making targets is what gets managers fired. Just saying.
As for torrents, while I would never condone illegal activity, torrent activity on related IP items is (one) measure of their popularity and thus should be considered a leading indicator of how well they are moving in the market (but again just one of many indicators).
-Polaris
How do we know any of that? Wizards does not release sales goals or sales numbers to the public. We don't know what they expected to sell with the essentials line, and we don't know if they met that goal or not, and any conclusions in that area are nothing more than vague guesses based on patchy evidence, speculation, and hearsay. Basically, the only people who are not talking about of their a$$ about how well essentials has actually done aren't talking at all, becuase WoTC keeps those numbers private. Can everyone just move along now?
How do we know any of that? Wizards does not release sales goals or sales numbers to the public. We don't know what they expected to sell with the essentials line, and we don't know if they met that goal or not, and any conclusions in that area are nothing more than vague guesses based on patchy evidence, speculation, and hearsay. Basically, the only people who are not talking about of their a$$ about how well essentials has actually done aren't talking at all, becuase WoTC keeps those numbers private. Can everyone just move along now?
We don't know this for an absolute fact (unless you have the Hasbro expectations and actual marketing numbers....which are confidential...because I sure don't). However, we can guess and make reasonably educated guessed based on how Wotc is reacting and what they are doing. If Essentials really were meeting corporate expectations, I'd expect the 2011 release schedule would look a lot different than it does, 'nuff said.
-Polaris
It's a nice generalisation, and maybe there is a lot of people out there who do have iffy stuff on their computer. But everybody?
You are right, I just don't happen to know anyone that has never photocopied part of a book as an example or be given a copy of a cd by a friend, but this doesn't mean that there isn't any. So I refrase, most of us have used illegal material. But the point is the same, most of us are responsible for the fact that piracy exists, some more than others...
By downloading illegal material we harm the things that we like (in this case D&D). It's not just two clicks, is a theft!
Download a few to check their legitimacy.
On the other hand, if you (me and everyone else) didn't download these files, WoTC would have never used as an excuse the "when I google "character Builder" i see first the torrent sites" thing and maybe we could still use the old, off-line CB, instead of the new one, which I have to pay every month in order to use it.
It is not a personal attack against you and maybe I can't express my thoughts very well in english, but I do believe that in some point, every one of us is responsible for someone that looses his job because we all have at least one song in our computer, or a pdf, or a programm that was not purchased legally.
Personally, I enjoy much more reading a book and I can organize my game better this way. I could have a million pdfs of all the D&D editions and even novels, an unlimited number of information right at my hand any time, but still, I would use my books... ( I am not against pdfs, I do love them, but I prefer the old fashioned way "turn of the tv, laptop etc and grab the pencil and a die, we (all of us) now have a story to narrate"...
The problem is they would have still done it. Their lax EULA allowed for people to update 1-2 times per year and get all of the goods LEGALY...
Not so sure it can be "blamed" on a lax EULA; rather, a shaky business model. Either way, the point is still valid.
Just sayin, yo.
The problem is they would have still done it. Their lax EULA allowed for people to update 1-2 times per year and get all of the goods LEGALY...
On the other hand they got some money out of me for it, and now they are getting none.
Updated whenever a game started, and then locked my game at that current set of rules for the duration of the campaign. (I had a solid 5 months, and then probably 4 sporadic updates)
Not really. Most of the books that were pulled were Essentials heavy. The most reasonable conclusion is that they are doing something other than Essentials, what that is, is anyones guess...
That was my point. It's all guessing. That's all we get to do in these forums any more. Would be nice to talk about looking forward to a release rather than speculation about what is even coming.
I hope somone at Wizards reads this. When Bill (with his rather unfortunate initials) notifies us that basically all previously announced D&D products have been cancelled, it obviously begs some really big questions. Why were the products cancelled? What is replacing them?
Since no one at Wizards seems willing to tell us, we have to assume there's a reason they don't want us to know.
Since no one at Wizards seems willing to tell us, we have to assume there's a reason they don't want us to know.
Indeed, this is Public Relations 101 and something that Wizards has seemingly forgotten. When something important happens, and there is no official communication, then people will speculate and they will tend to assume the worst....for exactly this reason (if it wasn't so bad, then why not tell us?)
-Polaris
In any case, you don't pull 3 major products lightheartedly. A lot of effort has probably already gone into it. Also consider the amount of frustration this causes among your talent. Keeping creative types motivated is not easy. Ever heard of writer's block?
Or, they pulled the emergency brake (cancellations) without being 100% sure about what to do next, or the decision not being ready 100% to be trumpeted to the world.
In any case, you don't pull 3 major products lightheartedly. A lot of effort has probably already gone into it. Also consider the amount of frustration this causes among your talent. Keeping creative types motivated is not easy. Ever heard of writer's block?
You may well be right about all this, but the point remains is the worst thing you can do in a situation like this is say nothing....yet that is pretty much what Wizards has done.
-Polaris
Download a few to check their legitimacy.
On the other hand, if you (me and everyone else) didn't download these files, WoTC would have never used as an excuse the "when I google "character Builder" i see first the torrent sites" thing and maybe we could still use the old, off-line CB, instead of the new one, which I have to pay every month in order to use it.
It is not a personal attack against you and maybe I can't express my thoughts very well in english, but I do believe that in some point, every one of us is responsible for someone that looses his job because we all have at least one song in our computer, or a pdf, or a programm that was not purchased legally.
Personally, I enjoy much more reading a book and I can organize my game better this way. I could have a million pdfs of all the D&D editions and even novels, an unlimited number of information right at my hand any time, but still, I would use my books... ( I am not against pdfs, I do love them, but I prefer the old fashioned way "turn of the tv, laptop etc and grab the pencil and a die, we (all of us) now have a story to narrate"...
The problem is they would have still done it. Their lax EULA allowed for people to update 1-2 times per year and get all of the goods LEGALY...
Which is what I did for the Monster and Character Builder. I payed them a total of 3 times, the last being just before the Online version of the CB was launched (as a birthday present of sorts). They won't be getting any more money out of me for their online offerings until they become as stable and useful to me as the offline CB, and until I have enough incoming income to justify the constant expenditure.
Any of the book downloads were download and delete. After all, PDF is only so useful to me. Books are much more useful, and though overall I can only have a few books vs a bunch of info online, I own the books for all time.
Or, they pulled the emergency brake (cancellations) without being 100% sure about what to do next, or the decision not being ready 100% to be trumpeted to the world.
In any case, you don't pull 3 major products lightheartedly. A lot of effort has probably already gone into it. Also consider the amount of frustration this causes among your talent. Keeping creative types motivated is not easy. Ever heard of writer's block?
You may well be right about all this, but the point remains is the worst thing you can do in a situation like this is say nothing....yet that is pretty much what Wizards has done.
-Polaris
As I have said many times in various threads the last couple of weeks, at this point we are about a week and half away from a major Con at which WoTC will be holding a event specificially to talk about new products for this year. We really don't know squat untill that is over. WoTC does have a very strick "dont talk about it until its offical/final/ready to go" policy, in part becuase every time something gets delayed, canceled, or changed, which in this any many other businesses is a fact of life, one of these threads starts and they get verbally pilloried and thumbscrewed. If after that there is still only a handful of items in the catalog for this year, then we have something to worry about. Untill then lets actually let them tell us what they are going to tell us when they said they would tell us something (at DnD experiece) before we make sweeping judgements about the future of the game and the company based on guesses and speculation. Right now there is not enough information.
Or, they pulled the emergency brake (cancellations) without being 100% sure about what to do next, or the decision not being ready 100% to be trumpeted to the world.
In any case, you don't pull 3 major products lightheartedly. A lot of effort has probably already gone into it. Also consider the amount of frustration this causes among your talent. Keeping creative types motivated is not easy. Ever heard of writer's block?
You may well be right about all this, but the point remains is the worst thing you can do in a situation like this is say nothing....yet that is pretty much what Wizards has done.
-Polaris
As I have said many times in various threads the last couple of weeks, at this point we are about a week and half away from a major Con at which WoTC will be holding a event specificially to talk about new products for this year. We really don't know squat untill that is over. WoTC does have a very strick "dont talk about it until its offical/final/ready to go" policy, in part becuase every time something gets delayed, canceled, or changed, which in this any many other businesses is a fact of life, one of these threads starts and they get verbally pilloried and thumbscrewed. If after that there is still only a handful of items in the catalog for this year, then we have something to worry about. Untill then lets actually let them tell us what they are going to tell us when they said they would tell us something (at DnD experiece) before we make sweeping judgements about the future of the game and the company based on guesses and speculation. Right now there is not enough information.
As I said before, I am not buying it. If Wotc wanted to avoid this negative speculation then, they should not have alterned their product schedule until just before the Con then. Allowing for nearly a month of zero communication is about the worst possible thing you can do.
-Polaris
Right now there is not enough information.
Another way of saying it thread = poo++