Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek Nov 11, 2011 11:12:00	I've been going over this in my mind for a while but what about instead using experience points to buy upgrades, abilities etc...
#2 drnick Nov 11, 2011 11:16:49	Well it worked so well for WoD... oh wait.
#3 trebor_rjf Nov 11, 2011 11:33:47	i dont think i'd like it, you'd have characters leveling up at odd times and the power level would be fluctuatung between characters who spent all their xp and characters who saved it for level ups. if you're proposing that this point buy system replace leveling up entirely i still don't like it. i think dnd works pretty well with the "get all your new stuff at once"approach to leveling. it levels out the power level between pc's and gives the dm a clear idea of how powerful the group is as a whole. you'd also have a group of five people changing their sheets after virtually every fight and that would be really hectic for a dm trying to keep track of it all.
#4 Scottevil912 Nov 11, 2011 11:45:14	I didn't think that the WoD (or GURPS or DC Heroes) system was actually that bad.  It may not have worked as well in WoD compared to say GURPS, but I personally enjoyed it.  Many modern video games use that system as well, and it works pretty good.  I also have tossed the idea around in my head, was sure if it was best to have the players put aside a % of XP to be used for the purchase (similar to Alternate Advancement from Everquest) or just let the player use the XP to buy things (though would probably limit it to not allowing them to go below their current level). I don't think there is anything wrong with the idea as it is, it does cause some balance issues you have to be willing to accomdate for, as such i wouldn't make it a "core" D&D rule - it also causes extra book keeping, but otherwise I don't see a problem with it. And hey, it could be something the players can finally use XP for in the games where the DM just levels them up when it feels appropriate.
#5 Gunthar Nov 11, 2011 11:47:09	That's how it's done now, just in uniform intervals instead of having characters all over the place, power-wise. When you get N XP, you get new *stuff".
#6 XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek Nov 11, 2011 11:47:47	I didn't think that the WoD (or GURPS or DC Heroes) system was actually that bad.  It may not have worked as well in WoD compared to say GURPS, but I personally enjoyed it.  Many modern video games use that system as well, and it works pretty good.  I also have tossed the idea around in my head, was sure if it was best to have the players put aside a % of XP to be used for the purchase (similar to Alternate Advancement from Everquest) or just let the player use the XP to buy things (though would probably limit it to not allowing them to go below their current level). I don't think there is anything wrong with the idea as it is, it does cause some balance issues you have to be willing to accomdate for, as such i wouldn't make it a "core" D&D rule - it also causes extra book keeping, but otherwise I don't see a problem with it. And hey, it could be something the players can finally use XP for in the games where the DM just levels them up when it feels appropriate. I could see player's using XP to buy actions during an encounter much like action points. Maybe buy and extra +2 to damage or something along those lines. Sure the DM would have to be careful but it could work if done properly.
#7 WotC_Trevor Nov 11, 2011 11:48:58	As a DM, I like the the fact that a player levels up and takes care of all their rules/crunch related changes at once. It makes it really easy for me to keep track of the changes that they've made, and since I generally keep the party members at the same level, it's easy to gauge and track the party's basic power level so I can create challenging and fun encounters and scenarios. As a player, I generally look forward to that level bump and everything it brings. It's kind of cool getting close to the level bump and being a bit excited about if we'll level after the next session. And it's also a big part of D&D to me. Other systems have done this, and I think it's worked to one degree or another, but that's one of the things that makes those systems their own, and not D&D. In the old WoD system (haven't played new WoD yet) I kinda liked getting the experience and being able to spend it after stories were wrapped up, but it often felt like we had to wait for quite a while to get enough xp to advance one pip in something. The games were good enough to keep going, but character advancement wasn't really important for me in those games because it was minimized so much by the advancement rules. Savage Worlds has an interesting advancement system - you're awarded experience, and after hitting XP milestones similar to D&D, you can pick up new things. In my mind, it's kind of a mix between the leveling system and the spending your experience system. I think it works really well for Savage Worlds, but I don't think D&D needs to go that route. Leveling and getting everything that goes along with that level is just part of D&D to me - and it doesn't seem like a part that's actually hurting the game. So for me it's a "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" kind of thing.
#8 manduck Nov 11, 2011 11:53:43	There was a thrid party source book called "Buy The Numbers" for 3.5 that our group tried.  It broke everything about a class (attack bonus, HD, class features, etc.) into an experience cost.  We earned experience and were free to buy whatever we wanted with it.  On the one hand, the level of customization was pretty awsome.  We could build any concept we wanted.  Though it completely threw off any way for the DM to plan encounters or make sure things were balanced.  If one person in the group spend their XP on getting hit dice and another on class features, you'd have two drastically different characters.  One guy could do all sorts of interesting things but have 20 HP while another could have 100 HP but not do much.  Which poses a problem for the DM of how to challenge a group.  How does your monster pose a threat for Mr. 100 HP without killing Mr. 20 HP outright?  It can also lead to all kinds of major abuse, if your players are of a mind to seek out those dangerous combinations.  Ultimately, it just threw off the system too much to be worth it.  Some people fell behind in ability because they were saving up for a cool class feature or something while others simply became a character that was only attack bonuses and HD.  It made life hard for the DM as it added to prep time and caused encounter problems.  Not to mention, you'd have to take the time to dissect and figure out the XP cost for everything.  That will add a lot of work for any campaign you're planning only to cause you a ton of problems once you start.
#9 thecasualoblivion Nov 11, 2011 11:54:29	Point buy tends to result in some people making characters that resemble realistic heroes, some people spending all their points being "pretty" resulting in a character who can't survive crossing the street, and some people spending every single point on Shotgun Training(or the equivalent). Keep that crap as far away from D&D as possible.
#10 the_ubbergeek Nov 11, 2011 12:00:41	Point buy tends to result in some people making characters that resemble realistic heroes, some people spending all their points being "pretty" resulting in a character who can't survive crossing the street, and some people spending every single point on Shotgun Training(or the equivalent). Keep that crap as far away from D&D as possible. I am in the Shadowrun fandom too, and yeah, it can turn to this. Xvun, be carefull of what you wish for.
#11 The_Jester Nov 11, 2011 12:10:17	A spendable xp system might work well if you're playing a slower levelling game, a campaign where you want to stretch out the low levels (or mid levels or high levels) a little more than normal. For example, if you wanted to make levels 1-5 last for an entire campaign. Parcelling out bonuses for levelling up means you feel like you've levelled up more than you actually have, it's a way to give the players a sense of advancement without actually out-levelling the story.  It might work better in Pathfinder, where you often get more for a "level". As 4e ties everything together ino "1/2 level" there are fewer bonuses floating around. Some levels you really only get hitpoints and a power. That's not much to choose when "buying" a level. So you might have to house rule in bonuses to attacks and defences. It would also work well paired with inherent bonuses.
#12 Scottevil912 Nov 11, 2011 12:21:05	One of the reasons that I wanted to come up with an alternate way to buy abilities was when the character hit the "level cap" but still wanted to play their characters and advance them.
#13 pluisjen Nov 11, 2011 12:31:04	There's plenty of systems that do this already, but it'd be a big step away from D&D class based nature. I wouldn't be opposed, though.
#14 mboss77 Nov 11, 2011 13:03:38	What I would like to see is a system that could handle some of the new additions to the game while preserving balance.  I would love to see extra slots for Skill Powers and Themes utility powers without having to sacrifice Class Utilities.
#15 salla Nov 11, 2011 13:12:54	I've been going over this in my mind for a while but what about instead using experience points to buy upgrades, abilities etc... That's called the HERO System.
#16 Tony_Vargas Nov 11, 2011 16:48:39	I've been going over this in my mind for a while but what about instead using experience points to buy upgrades, abilities etc... That works /instead/ of havig a level-based system (lots of games do it:  Hero, GURPS, Storyteller, etc), but D&D is so class/level at heart, I can't imagine it being implemented.
#17 Crimson_Concerto Nov 11, 2011 17:03:32	It's been like a decade since I played with any groups that actually used XP, and I've played with a lot of different groups in the last decade. Most DMs that I know nowadays just work on a "You gain a level" system where they just tell the party when they gain a level when it's most conveniant in the story and stuff. I like that system a lot more than the default XP system, so I wouldn't get behind anything that made ignoring XP more difficult.
#18 Scatterbrained Nov 11, 2011 19:36:13	So for me it's a "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" kind of thing. This
#19 XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek Nov 11, 2011 20:36:30	Leveling and getting everything that goes along with that level is just part of D&D to me - and it doesn't seem like a part that's actually hurting the game. So for me it's a "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" kind of thing. Who said anything about fixing something that's broke? It's about doing something different. There were a lot of aspects to D&D through the years that weren't broke but have been left to the wayside.
#20 Hocus-Smokus Nov 11, 2011 20:50:34	I have toyed with different ways of making D&D fully customizable. Start with X points. But your race. Buy your stats. Buy your powers. So on and so forth. While it does work, what you end up with is basically Elder Scrolls: D&D Edition, or HERO: D&D Edition. Other systems do it, and do it well. D&D does what it does well. No need to tinker too much with the absolute core foundation of D&D, that being a class/level-based RPG.
#21 Scottevil912 Nov 11, 2011 22:48:09	The key thing whenever you want to make a change to the game is to understand the root cause before you try to solution the problem. for example, take the solution: "Players can use XP to buy new abilities, feats, skills, etc." Now that solution can be there to fix a few root causes that triggered the desire to have it in the first place: 1. Once characters hit level 30 there is no further way to advance those characters, and my players want to keep playing the same characters. 2. Since players only have 30 levels, they are on average more likely to select powers and feats that are useful to their character in a wide variety of situations rather than specific ones 3. The players want more powerful characters For my group, it was mostly #1 - the players don't want to stop playing their characters, even at level 30.  So to solution that I could do things like figure out how to raise the level cap or find alternate ways for characters to get better.
#22 Sydonis Nov 12, 2011 19:55:37	It broke everything about a class (attack bonus, HD, class features, etc.) into an experience cost. Mutants and Masterminds 3rd Edition was released not too long ago, and I was actually quite surprised to see how well they adapted the system. If you're unfamiliar, you gain a certain amount of power points each level, which you can choose to increase your statistics (ability scores, defense, saves, attacks), gain feats, increase your powers, or purchase equipment.  Mutants and Masterminds is a completely open-ended game, and with the new edition, a great deal of the issues have been resolved.  That said, we ended up choosing 4e for our campaigns simply because its easier to just pick up and play.  M&M requires you to build characters and monsters from the ground up, while D&D is all cookie cutter monsters and adventures.  As well, despite D&D being a much more restrictive game, and despite being focused way too heavily on thematics and fluff to truly flourish, its also an extremely tactical game.  M&M allows you to literally build any character you can imagine (within balance of course), but D&D just has this feel to it. If you're interested in a "purchase abilities with experience" game, you can always try that.