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Direction of Dungeons & Dragons

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Rolemancer
Sep 19, 2010 16:12:20 I don't care what edition is chosen, I have played them all and have enjoyed my time with them for the most part. Of all the RPGs I have played, D&D continued to reign supreme in the high fantasy category for me.

4th edition came out and I jumped on for the ride and bought every book to date for it except for the essentials line.

I ran a campaign and the PCs went from starting Heroic to upper Paragon levels. All through the process there was something missing but we played on through, shelving those sinking feelings for another time, giving 4th an honest chance at proving us wrong later as we experienced more of its fullness.

As a DM I absolutely loved how simple it was to put an encounter together, but I absolutely hated how long combat would take. That is where I found myself, loving some things and hating others, there was no happy medium and no good solution to be found that wasn't an overhaul to the system that ended up just becoming a game breaker in the end.

My Players told me that the game felt more tactical and less fantastic to them. The world didn't feel alive, roleplaying was difficult, the powers structure made many classes feel like they did the same thing and magic wasn't... magical anymore.

I took an assessment of my DMing first as I have run some excellent campaigns but I have also run some not so great ones. After time, we explored more of this further, to really try to get to the bottom of what that void was that was eating away at us all.

I continued buying books, continued to trust the development of the system, but to no avail. I had to face the truth, that no matter how badly I wanted 4th to be the system for me and my group, investing time and treasure along with faith and hope, it turned out to be empty and this bothers me, a lot.

Pathfinder had been out awhile and many were singing its praises. I resisted the urge to buy it, we eventually went back to D&D 3.5 and that too had an empty feeling. We couldn't go back, we had to go forward.

After dodging Pathfinder and purchasing some other systems on the market, I finally broke down and began buying some Pathfinder books, read through them, bought more and then joined in another group as a Player myself. I was very pleasantly surprised, my resistance was proved wrong and I was having fun again!

It is hard to put my finger on it exactly, much the same as I felt when something was wrong about 4th and 3.5, but it is just as people say, it is D&D 3.5 only better, what it should have been and it will be my choice of system for the next high fantasy campaign I run as a DM.

But, still, I miss TSR and accepted when WotC took over eventually, but now it feels like they have lost D&D all on their own. Paizo now has the true D&D in their hands with Pathfinder, only they didn't have to purchase it. Their writing is excellent, the printing production quality is excellent and they are providing all the right mix of elements from smaller to larger books on various subjects to expand upon the lore of the game. Beyond that, the way it plays out at the table is excellent!

For D&D to survive in WotC's hands with me as a customer, and I know that I am not the only one, though I hesitate greatly to say it, it is time to make a 5th edition and leave 4th behind.

It should have all the improved elements of 2nd, 3rd and 4th editions while moving further away from the tactical marketing of grids, minis and tiles, though not throwing them out completely and back leaning heavily toward the abstract, mythical, fantastic, mystical and magical 'products of your imagination.'

Until then, I will be purchasing Paizo's Pathfinder products.

I would have posted this in the 4th edition concerns / criticisms forum, but it appears that forum is locked up, which is too bad because WotC needs to hear this and cater to its customer base rather than ignore them and watch more and more of them head on over to the store next door.

#2
dm_trandahl
Sep 19, 2010 16:27:59 I certainly feel what you're saying. I'm a 2nd Edition DM myself, and managed only 1 session of DMing 4E but have recently decided to try out the new Essentials line. It seems to cater to my old school streamlined play style. I too have hopes for a 5E that gets it right.
#3
dm_trandahl
Sep 19, 2010 16:29:11
Oh, and yes, Pathfinder does rock. I've run 3 campaigns since it came out and have played in 2. It's a very quality-orientated system.
#4
eldrith_hawkflight
Sep 20, 2010 22:07:46 I'm a 3.5 DM. I really hope they get the feel of it right again, every time I play another system I feel like I'm "cheating" on D&D. I also agree that using the same mechanic for magical/mundane uses effectively lost the appeal magic had (for me)
#5
Finarvyn
Oct 11, 2010 16:52:06 The thing is, you can enjoy any of the editions once you figure out how the game works and if you're willing to tweak the rules a little. I started off with OD&D back in the 1970's and in many ways it's still my rules set of choice, but I also tried AD&D, 2E, 3E, and now 4E. Each has certain aspects I like and other things I dislike.

For example, I prefer ascending AC as is found in newer editions of the game. I house-ruled something like this decades before it came out in 3E and I find it to be a wonderful change to the rules.

Also, my players enjoy the expanded options of newer editons. More races, more classes, more choices. Sometimes I wish we had more "human fighter" characters but I can understand that folks play RPGs to be something they aren't in the Real World, and so not so many humans anymore.

On the other hand I dislike lengthy monster stat-blocks, and I see that this is the direction that the rules are evolving. Now I have to tweak my 4E game to see what I can thin out to keep things running the way I like them.

Some good things, some not-so-good. Anyone who says "edition X is all bad" probably hasn't really given it a fair try.

Just my opinion, of course.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Rolemancer Sep 19, 2010 16:12:20	I don't care what edition is chosen, I have played them all and have enjoyed my time with them for the most part. Of all the RPGs I have played, D&D continued to reign supreme in the high fantasy category for me. 4th edition came out and I jumped on for the ride and bought every book to date for it except for the essentials line. I ran a campaign and the PCs went from starting Heroic to upper Paragon levels. All through the process there was something missing but we played on through, shelving those sinking feelings for another time, giving 4th an honest chance at proving us wrong later as we experienced more of its fullness. As a DM I absolutely loved how simple it was to put an encounter together, but I absolutely hated how long combat would take. That is where I found myself, loving some things and hating others, there was no happy medium and no good solution to be found that wasn't an overhaul to the system that ended up just becoming a game breaker in the end. My Players told me that the game felt more tactical and less fantastic to them. The world didn't feel alive, roleplaying was difficult, the powers structure made many classes feel like they did the same thing and magic wasn't... magical anymore. I took an assessment of my DMing first as I have run some excellent campaigns but I have also run some not so great ones. After time, we explored more of this further, to really try to get to the bottom of what that void was that was eating away at us all. I continued buying books, continued to trust the development of the system, but to no avail. I had to face the truth, that no matter how badly I wanted 4th to be the system for me and my group, investing time and treasure along with faith and hope, it turned out to be empty and this bothers me, a lot. Pathfinder had been out awhile and many were singing its praises. I resisted the urge to buy it, we eventually went back to D&D 3.5 and that too had an empty feeling. We couldn't go back, we had to go forward. After dodging Pathfinder and purchasing some other systems on the market, I finally broke down and began buying some Pathfinder books, read through them, bought more and then joined in another group as a Player myself. I was very pleasantly surprised, my resistance was proved wrong and I was having fun again! It is hard to put my finger on it exactly, much the same as I felt when something was wrong about 4th and 3.5, but it is just as people say, it is D&D 3.5 only better, what it should have been and it will be my choice of system for the next high fantasy campaign I run as a DM. But, still, I miss TSR and accepted when WotC took over eventually, but now it feels like they have lost D&D all on their own. Paizo now has the true D&D in their hands with Pathfinder, only they didn't have to purchase it. Their writing is excellent, the printing production quality is excellent and they are providing all the right mix of elements from smaller to larger books on various subjects to expand upon the lore of the game. Beyond that, the way it plays out at the table is excellent! For D&D to survive in WotC's hands with me as a customer, and I know that I am not the only one, though I hesitate greatly to say it, it is time to make a 5th edition and leave 4th behind. It should have all the improved elements of 2nd, 3rd and 4th editions while moving further away from the tactical marketing of grids, minis and tiles, though not throwing them out completely and back leaning heavily toward the abstract, mythical, fantastic, mystical and magical 'products of your imagination.' Until then, I will be purchasing Paizo's Pathfinder products. I would have posted this in the 4th edition concerns / criticisms forum, but it appears that forum is locked up, which is too bad because WotC needs to hear this and cater to its customer base rather than ignore them and watch more and more of them head on over to the store next door.
#2 dm_trandahl Sep 19, 2010 16:27:59	I certainly feel what you're saying. I'm a 2nd Edition DM myself, and managed only 1 session of DMing 4E but have recently decided to try out the new Essentials line. It seems to cater to my old school streamlined play style. I too have hopes for a 5E that gets it right.
#3 dm_trandahl Sep 19, 2010 16:29:11	Oh, and yes, Pathfinder does rock. I've run 3 campaigns since it came out and have played in 2. It's a very quality-orientated system.
#4 eldrith_hawkflight Sep 20, 2010 22:07:46	I'm a 3.5 DM. I really hope they get the feel of it right again, every time I play another system I feel like I'm "cheating" on D&D. I also agree that using the same mechanic for magical/mundane uses effectively lost the appeal magic had (for me)
#5 Finarvyn Oct 11, 2010 16:52:06	The thing is, you can enjoy any of the editions once you figure out how the game works and if you're willing to tweak the rules a little. I started off with OD&D back in the 1970's and in many ways it's still my rules set of choice, but I also tried AD&D, 2E, 3E, and now 4E. Each has certain aspects I like and other things I dislike. For example, I prefer ascending AC as is found in newer editions of the game. I house-ruled something like this decades before it came out in 3E and I find it to be a wonderful change to the rules. Also, my players enjoy the expanded options of newer editons. More races, more classes, more choices. Sometimes I wish we had more "human fighter" characters but I can understand that folks play RPGs to be something they aren't in the Real World, and so not so many humans anymore. On the other hand I dislike lengthy monster stat-blocks, and I see that this is the direction that the rules are evolving. Now I have to tweak my 4E game to see what I can thin out to keep things running the way I like them. Some good things, some not-so-good. Anyone who says "edition X is all bad" probably hasn't really given it a fair try. Just my opinion, of course.