| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
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| #1AngrygodofmilkJun 29, 2011 17:07:32 | Don't get me wrong, it makes me sad. I am big proponent of 4th edition, but I lost interest in my Insider account long ago. Very little of worth was being offered (this isn't breaking news I realize), but I didn't give up. I kept visiting the site, looking at the update headlines, hoping something would pique my interest. A friend of mine who still maintains an account, and from whose computer I am now typing, let me peruse the latest updates. Let's see, an inordinate amount of fluff, virtually no crunch (Themes! Yippee!), lots of WHOO-HOO issue #400 pats of the back (not sure why) reprinting articles of yore that were written decades ago for editions of the game I stopped playing decades ago, editors being interviewed about their drinking problems when the magazines fell out of print, lots of check-out-what-the-designers-are-doing-in-their-games non-articles that want us to learn from their expositional examples, lots of art and map galleries posing as articles, lots of board game and video game updates with no bearing on the reason I read these updates in the first place, and new D&D comics that try too hard and fall short on the funny. (Aside: In all my years of reading webcomics, I have never seen a comic so formally rolled out as Epic Campain. Just start the comic! Back it or don't! It's tantamount to DM's who read sixty minutes of back story before starting a new adventure path. Let the world speak for itself. The characters will either fall flat or resonate.) There have been a lot updates to the classes lately which I have to say are more irritating than edifying. I love how some of them are initially pitched as "playtesting" errata, as if the readers actually have a say in whether or not these changes will take hold or go back to the drawing board. Who knows, maybe we do have a say. But who is we? The lurkers or the squeaky wheels? I find myself not caring anymore. I'm exhausted with 4th edition errata. I just want to play D&D, you know? Meanwhile, Pathfinder is not only alive and well, but thriving. No, they aren't making Wizards of the Coast profit, but they aren't beholden to any corporate (read: Hasbro) masters demanding those profits. They're just interested in making a good role-playing game. And let's be honest, they're looking pretty slick these days. That's when I realized my eye was wandering... Should I take a look? Pathfinder doesn't suffer from lack of direction, they can't be accused of indecision (they've stuck with the core mechanics), and they don't waste time and resources dumbing-down existing content for newbies (yes, I'm looking at you Essentials). On the other hand, I like 4th edition a lot, especially on a conceptual level. It's just become...I don't know...tiresome. It's like dating a really hot girlfriend, but the relationship has fallen into an apathetic rut. You try to spice things up, but none of your collective ideas take hold. No matter how aesthetically pleasing she is to your eyes, it's not meaningful enough to sustain the relationship anymore. Meanwhile, this sexy goth girl has been trying to get your attention, who you have been overlooking all this time (yes, I just equated Pathfinder to a sexy goth girl). She might not have any of the qualities you liked about your old girlfriend, but isn't that the point? You fell for the flash, now it's time for the substance. Maybe she's it. Maybe, just maybe, she's both. Pathfinder and 4th edition. Traditionally, when a new edition of D&D comes out, the old one gradually fades into antiquity. There's gnashing of teeth at first, but the change is predominately embraced. It's been over two years and Pathfinder has not faded. It seems more luminescent than ever. Try as the original designers did, to their credit, 4th edition failed to win a predominant audience. I think it might be time to see how Pathfinder streamlined 3.x once and for all. In the end, a good game is NOT the shiny new mechanics. It's how much you don't notice them during game play. Well, okay, a good game is mostly the game master. Find one of those, and the game mechanics are largely irrelevant. For all other games, those mechanics had better not be irritating. |
| #2thecasualoblivionJun 29, 2011 17:19:06 | tl;dr 4th edition is dying, go check out Pathfinder Sounds like an advertisement, despite the OP's claims. I guess we get our dose of this thing for the week. 4E is dying, Pathfinder is rising #184. |
| #3starglyteJun 29, 2011 17:25:35 | I am still trying to figure out what Pathfinder is supposedly winning. Was there a contest going on or something? |
| #4helnaeJun 29, 2011 17:36:34 | tl;dr I believe we've got another dose scheduled for Friday at around 2:37 PM Central time. |
| #5UchawiJun 29, 2011 17:40:29 | I would recommend giving Pathfinder a try, it is very easy to start a character based on the free rule set. I started with 4E when it first started, and then tried Pathfinder as well, but the same things that bugged me in 3.5 have not gone away. You may have a different experience. |
| #6thecasualoblivionJun 29, 2011 17:42:22 | When did it become a contest? It was a contest from the beginning, from when 4E haters claimed 4E wasn't really D&D. Pathfinder "winning" proves that 3E was the real D&D and 4E has always been false. |
| #7wrecanJun 29, 2011 17:44:22 | In what way are you a proponent of 4th edition.
I'm trying to figure out where in this litany you are being a proponent. Edited: Wait a minute. Are you the same guy was angry a year ago because naga went from an immortal origin to a natural origin, and the guy was angry three years ago beause Aasimar didn't make it into the PHB1? Remind me again when you were a proponent? |
| #8owaruJun 29, 2011 17:47:10 | I also agree, when did it become a contest? Didn't you know? Any time a 4e player sits down at a Pathfinder table, Wizards breaks down hir door with a flamethrower and torches all hir 4e books. (The player is allowed to replace them, but only with Essentials books, and must from then on complain endlessly about how "they should just call it 4.5." I've seen the contract they make you sign, it's not pretty.) On the other hand, anytime a Pathfinder player breaks open a 4e book, the Pathfinder gods kill a kitten. OH GODS, WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE KITTENS!! :-) Or, y'know, we could all be big boys and girls. Oh, wait, I forgot, this is the Internet, where the only way to be right is for everyone else to be wrong. <rolls eyes> |
| #9ZardnaarJun 29, 2011 18:11:28 | Pathfinder still has alot of 3.5's issues although it is better balenced than 3.5 and with some houserules it is a fine RPG. The books look good and Paizo seems to be running a tighter ship than WoTC these days. I've run both 4th ed and PF and I like them both but I'm leaning 4th eds way ATM. If 4th ed tanks tomorrow I would at least act like a gentleman towarss the people who really like it or are fanatic about it. |
| #10ArtifactJun 29, 2011 18:28:24 | I think it's great that people can play the version of D&D they want to. If you like 4e, play that. If you like 3e/Pathfinder, play that. There are even 'retro clones' out there. So, if you like Basic D&D, try Labyrinth Lord. If you like 1e try OSRIC. All these games are available, ready to play, and all are currently being supported. It used to be you were out of luck when it came to support for earlier editions. Not anymore. I try to overlook edition debate. It's all D&D in my mind and it's a great time to be a fan. |
| #11Scottevil912Jun 29, 2011 18:36:35 | Maybe it's just me, but I thought the content over the past couple of months has improved- hybrid/multiclass rules for essentials, new themes with powers tacked on, new powers for the battle cleric. I have to cancel my account for personal reasons, but the past three months worth of material I think was enough to fill a book so was worth the cost. (though, I'll admit I lost track of what was DDI vs. Free). |
| #12GarthanosJun 29, 2011 18:38:03 | I remember being pretty critical of D&D back in the early 80's and you know what? one of the things I didnt like was the fans seemed to care more about popularity than the game being actually good -the fans who trapsed out there monty haul and killer dm - not to mention god wizard - imbalances like they were great and positive things - there were numerous games even then which seemed be blowing past the rather slow to evolve game even ones that were nearly concurrent like RuneQuest seemed better mechanically in so many ways. HERO and GURPS were showing you could make characters that felt like people and the rediculous alignment thing ... sheeesh. It looks like that popularity contest thing is alive and well in the last version and its cut and paste child. |
| #42thecasualoblivionJun 30, 2011 8:42:41 | Scrambled eggs on toast with Tabasco sauce. I win. |
| #43helnaeJun 30, 2011 8:46:51 | I like chives and garlic and a bit of cheese with my scrambled eggs. |
| #44tiballagherJun 30, 2011 8:53:39 | 4E girl is a tranny. It ain't just the boobs that are artificial. Using transphobic slurs is really not cool and against the Code of Conduct. I'm sure you can find a better way to express yourself. |
| #45hunterian7Jun 30, 2011 8:54:10 | Sheep brains and eggs. |
| #46thecasualoblivionJun 30, 2011 8:55:44 | I find eggs to be Essential to a good breakfast. |
| #47oxybeJun 30, 2011 9:02:29 | What is with you people? Are you really all ok with eggs? how can you be so [horrific slur against disabled or minority]? [deity]! i can't wait until the day you all see how ****ing stupid eggs are. On 4th ed tranny comment: you know what? to use the vernacular "i'd tap that". it might not be a "real" (genetically speaking) girl, but she's got one a hell of a better personality then the last one i was with. much cuter too. |
| #48helnaeJun 30, 2011 9:11:43 | I find that a balanced breakfast requires flightless bird embryos, minced organs in intestine skins, slices of hog flesh, and burnt ground grass seeds dipped in animal fats, with your choice of drink. |
| #49Madfox11Jun 30, 2011 9:16:12 | I find that a balanced breakfast requires flightless bird embryos, minced organs in intestine skins, slices of hog flesh, and burnt ground grass seeds dipped in animal fats, with your choice of drink. You forgot the raw reproduction organs of plants ;) |
| #50thecasualoblivionJun 30, 2011 9:19:50 | I find that a balanced breakfast requires flightless bird embryos, minced organs in intestine skins, slices of hog flesh, and burnt ground grass seeds dipped in animal fats, with your choice of drink. Vegetable rights! |
| #51lokiareJun 30, 2011 9:47:58 | For the girlfriend analogy to be accurate we have to add a few things to 4E: When you were just getting to know her before you hooked up she was talking about taking you on a roadtrip around the country and seing the world (3D VT, CB, CV, MB, Map Maker, etc...). After you started dating you realized she would never go beyond the next town (CB for what? 2 years). She finally took a trip to the local amusement park (MB), but didn't stay long. She constantly lied to you (the many 'detractions' they've done where they say one thing, then change it later on). She started out one way nice and very amicable, but then started on heavy drugs or something because she started treating you completely differently (i.e. Essentials). Its weird though she keeps acting like she's going to treat you nice, but then slaps you for no reason (Essentializing Pre-E). She promises to do stuff and then does nothing (2 months without more than a handful of articles in DDi). Then right when you were planning on going to go to the next town she instead stops at a gas station and acts like you are having fun (OCB debacle on release). She rents a movie and while watching it acts like you are traveling all around the country and says "see I told you we'd travel" (The 2D oversimplified VT which is still in beta, which may or may not contain micro-transactions). Overall its a rough relationship, you wonder if its worth it. Really though, the reason you don't leave her is that while you like the pathfinder goth chick a lot, she constantly talks about a subject that you just can't stand (pathfinder/3.5E game imbalance), but she sure does look like she's got everything together, more stable and she even seems nicer than your current girlfrind (the general feel of pathfinder and Paizo is much better and they produce better adventures and seem to actually care about their customers. Wheras WotC is like "your replaceable"). |
| #52icedcrowJun 30, 2011 9:53:43 | Since my other post was deleted for using profanity ;) I will rephrase using less profane words. Why does it matter "who is winning?" Should we only play a game if it is the most popular, and therefore... winning? Are we Charlie Sheen? |
| #53hunterian7Jun 30, 2011 9:55:37 | Since my other post was deleted for using profanity ;) I will rephrase using less profane words. For us players, no, it doesn't matter. To Wizards, as a business, yes, it matters. |
| #54frothsofJun 30, 2011 9:56:50 | lame thread, did dude really call pathfinder "luminescent"? lol wow, enough said |
| #55icedcrowJun 30, 2011 9:59:22 | Since my other post was deleted for using profanity ;) I will rephrase using less profane words. Sure from a business stand point absolutely it matters, but I'm speaking as players. There seem to be an awful lot of players that will only play what is popular. It irks me. There are a lot of really good systems out there that don't get any love at all just because it's not popular. |
| #56frothsofJun 30, 2011 10:02:43 | call of cthulhu rules and hardly anyone plays it. it dumps all over pathfinder, not even a contest |
| #57thundersteel1918Jun 30, 2011 10:26:24 |
Interesting analogy, with on eproblem: This sexy new goth girl isn't a new girl at all. She is just like your old girlfriend (3e-3.5e) who you broke up with long ago, and are glad she's gone. Things had started out great, she was something no other girl was befor. Then a year or so into your relation ship she had a midlife crisis, changed a lot, and was never really quite the same. She got bloated, her mood swings were worse than ever, and the same flaws you saw with the other girls befor her started to show. The poor class balance, the broken builds, the backwards mechanics were all still there, just covered by her black lipstick. This sexy new goth girl is the exact same as the girl you used to date, just younger, with the same flaws, the same look, and the same daddy issues. If you're smart, you'll ignore her, because she'll just frustrate you like the last one did. ------ You're right, great mechanics are the ones that work without you even knowing they're there. However Pathfinder (3.5) mechanics are glaringly noticable if you happen to like playing the classes that really aren't mechanically good. |
| #58ElectricbeeJun 30, 2011 10:58:51 | For the girlfriend analogy to be accurate we have to add a few things to 4E: You might want to add taht Hot Goth Chick has no plans to go on any trips or do any travelling. Seh would rather go to the same local conventions and events year after year. Oh ... and she's really hung up on her ex boyfriend (3.5) and everything you say and do is in comparison to him. And if you're really honest with yourself, your girlfriend hasn't really lied to you at all. She was and is a dreamer who's reach exceeds her grasp sometimes. She's getting better at setting realistic expectations, but part of why she charmed you to begin with is she dreams big and you liked that. You don't get the trip to Europe with her, it was more expensive than either of you realized. She has friends outside of you, and sometimes she wants to do things that you just don't find fun(like blue-grass music concerts), but she doesn't really make you come along (essentials). You think you deserve all of her time and follow along to the blue-grass concerts and complain that it isn't rock music and don't understand how anyone could like it. She smiles and says she'll go see some coverband next weekend, but that isn't good enough for you. |
| #59helnaeJun 30, 2011 12:09:20 | I find that a balanced breakfast requires flightless bird embryos, minced organs in intestine skins, slices of hog flesh, and burnt ground grass seeds dipped in animal fats, with your choice of drink. Ehhh... I find them to be rather optional for breakfast. I prefer my raw units of flora's deception around midday. I'm not scattering any plant's offspring before 10. |
| #60thecasualoblivionJun 30, 2011 12:15:51 | Eggs are great, but don't compare to cold pizza and leftover Chinese food on my breakfast table. At least not in the absence of a hangover. |
| #61rian_kingJun 30, 2011 12:47:40 | Don't get me wrong, it makes me sad. I am big proponent of 4th edition, but I lost interest in my Insider account long ago. Very little of worth was being offered (this isn't breaking news I realize), but I didn't give up. I kept visiting the site, looking at the update headlines, hoping something would pique my interest. A friend of mine who still maintains an account, and from whose computer I am now typing, let me peruse the latest updates. Swing and a miss. No one is winning or losing. This is all a matter of your opinion stated as facts. I mean the best way to see who is "winning" look at sales. From my understanding DnD is still on top |
| #62GarthanosJun 30, 2011 12:54:18 |
I did mention that issue seemed a D&Dism all the way back in 1982 or so... |
| #82oxybeJun 30, 2011 16:16:30 |
always fun? early on the fun kept dying pretty randomly and in towards the end it was literally hit or miss. she kept telling me there was a supposed sweet spot in the relationship, but failed to mention that it only existed if you played her way (fighter > tank, rogue > traps, cleric > healbot, wizard > evocation spam)... straying outside of her initial expectations would cause her head to explode. she wasn't ready to handle people not doing it "her way" and was rather high maintenance all throughout the relationship. too high maintenance for me at least. as for being "innovative"... she didn't set trends, she cherry-picked what she wanted and yelled "look at me!" (Feats, for example, seem to be heavily influenced from the Perks in a little 1997 CRPG called Fallout: between both the level & stat requirements for a set benefit or modification to an existing mechanic, as well as a rate one gained them... 1 / 3 levels). she didn't know what she wanted to do... sometimes she was very focused (monk, barbarian) while other times she was all over the place (most casters). she also kept trying to rearrange everything and failing to understand why keep things in specific categories (the whole mess of a "classless" class system). unlike her older sisters (pre-3rd), she had no clue what she wanted from life (or classes at least) by the end of the relationship, she was struggling to keep our attention. she tried reinventing the wheel and still failed because she simply wasn't listening to why we were leaving (the existence of Warblades (is that what they were called?) doesn't make the Fighter not suck nor does it fix the issue of full-casters still having way too many options). honestly you can only have so much of that goth girl until you realize that underneath that makeup, leather and bravado she's too insecure about herself and unwilling to change her bad habits. |
| #83sciborg3Jun 30, 2011 16:17:11 | I find Pathfinder has employed a lot of people, including the many game designers laid off by Wizards, alongside fantasy authors and fans who've proven themselves to possess talent. It hardly matters whether one is "standing still" if one is making money, but it does indicate there are two different groups wanting different things from their D&D systems. Anytime I play the rules matter so little that we handwave combat, so I can't speak to the systems but I do know I buy PDFs from Pathfinder just to read about the world. |
| #84ShasarakJun 30, 2011 16:29:54 | as for being "innovative"... she didn't set trends, she cherry-picked what she wanted and yelled "look at me!" (Feats, for example, seem to be heavily influenced from the Perks in a little 1997 CRPG called Fallout: between both the level & stat requirements for a set benefit or modification to an existing mechanic, as well as a rate one gained them... 1 / 3 levels). Does this ever really change? All designers for DnD across all of the editions ever made have played other games and taken aspects that they like from them. I believe that THAC0 and negative AC came from some war game. The same as the computer games have then taken aspects from DnD. And then DnD takes aspects from those computer games. Its an endless cycle of cherry picking, one that no edition of DnD (including 4e) is innocent of. |
| #85sciborg3Jun 30, 2011 16:40:44 | agree with Shasarak - this attempt to definte the "rightful" D&D that is hallowed seems strange...also, the girlfriend analogy is weirding me out... |
| #86GarthanosJun 30, 2011 16:49:38 |
Hmmm taken in the broader context of all the other games in existance... actual innovations in D&D well the main ones were indeed in 0e, with Arneson involved by the time even 1e was out for even a short while there were already many other game systems running wildly ahead with possibilities. You almost have to say innovations in any version of D&D is more about being willing to make changes and fundamental improvements on the previous version.. (those may not be innovative changes in a real sense as there is very likely several other games already doing it) |
| #122opsktJul 02, 2011 9:24:17 | Neither is winning. Because of all the arguements putting the player base against each other, we are all losing. |
| #123XguildJul 02, 2011 10:13:03 | To be frank, if Pathfinder interests you at all, then 4ed is not for you. Agreed. I play Pathfinder and run Pathfinder for a group that did nothing but play 4th edition since release and they love it. Its natural for gamers to discuss games, compare and contrast etc. and certainly all the gamers in my various gaming groups have their favorite but I think most of us see redeaming qualities in all sorts of games. Pathfinders popularity I think is mainly due to the fact that 4th edition has focused too much on "entry level" role-playing in a declining market, while Pathfinder has focused on an audiance that grew up on D&D who aren't going anywhere. RPGS are in decline, the "new player market" is extremly thin, way too thin to dedicate a 10 product line to it like essentials and because they did nothing but 4th edition kind of has a "for newbies" stank on it. I think 4th edition needs to get back to creating content for veteran players who love the game and they will find themselves on the rise again. |
| #124Shemeska_the_MarauderJul 02, 2011 10:23:11 | Pathfinders popularity I think is mainly due to the fact that 4th edition has focused too much on "entry level" role-playing in a declining market, while Pathfinder has focused on an audiance that grew up on D&D who aren't going anywhere. Not necessarily in my experience. I know a decent spread of people both older and entry level folks who play both games. And at least for myself, I didn't grow up on D&D by any means. I'm relatively new to the hobby, having only gotten in once 3e was already out (though I later went back and took a lot of inspiration from 2e material, and that colors my own writing for PF in some ways). |
| #125lokiareJul 02, 2011 10:42:09 | Well if WotC really wanted to get new players they'd promote their games in the public eye. You know prime time commercials of a family and friends playing D&D. Maybe show a short session over the course of 3-4 commercials. The first commercial would pan over the table with the minis and the color maps while the DM was describing the situation "You enter the Dire Crypts of The Dark Dragon Gergamlon... The darkness is palpable and leaves your skin slick with cold sweat. A hollow sound echoes from within." The next commercial would be about a specific situation they are in and end with "What will you do?" The next set of commercials would be about each character describing what they do and the DM adjudicating the actions. The final commercial would be one of the characters unloading a nova and getting a crit killing the "Dark Dragon Gergamlon" everyone rises up and cheers... |
| #126XguildJul 02, 2011 10:49:43 | Well if WotC really wanted to get new players they'd promote their games in the public eye. You know prime time commercials of a family and friends playing D&D. Maybe show a short session over the course of 3-4 commercials. Might work, role-playing games certainly could have a second coming, but as it stands it is a declining market and as such you would think WOTC primary concern would be holding on to the players they are loosing to their self created competition. I mean right now they are getting their butts handed to them by a company that is selling the product they created, whoever let that happen should probobly be fired... oh..eh nevermind. |
| #127oxybeJul 02, 2011 11:05:01 | that's weird Xguild, cause you're talking to a vet here (is 2nd ed AD&D old enough to make me a D&D / RPG vet?) and 4th ed is exactly what i want from a class-based fantasy RPG. what kind of content do you think vets want? cause this vet doesn't want anything to do with 3.5. -to me vets don't have the time to learn the system mastery. we have lives and families. we can't pull the all-night sessions or the weekend-long spurts anymore. we want a system we can pickup, pick a few thematically appropriate abilities and hit the ground running... system mastery should be optional, not required -to me vets want a game that encourage teamwork, not have it required for some while others are perfectly fine without it. we game together to game together. -to me vets want games with clear goals and designed towards them. we play 4th ed because it's a high-adventure fantasy game. we play Mage if we want a generally-freeform game where we're all super wizards. -to me vets want something that works out of the box. we don't want to have to jury-rig a bunch of houserules to make a game work. houserules should be used to add personal flair rather then serve as makeshift fixes. you can feel free to say that 4th ed doesn't appeal to some vets (you, for example) but i can point you to several that would say otherwise. the biggest difference is the ease of entry when new players do come along. i've seen new players pickup 4th ed in 2-3 sessions at most, with them knowing the gist of the system by the end of the first session. i've seen players still struggle with some 3rd's intricacies after 10 years. |
| #128XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsekJul 02, 2011 11:23:16 | Pathfinder and 4th edition are two different games and the only two reasons why someone couldn't play both is time and money. True gamers open their eyes to all RPG's out there and encourages others to try whatever else is out there. Liking just 4th edition is fine, but this talk about 4th edition not being for you just because you happen to like other RPG's is sad. |
| #129fayelampshireJul 02, 2011 11:26:19 | I like both. I play both. Both have their faults, but I can live with them. But then I'm lucky, I guess, in that I had to stop playing after 2e and couldn't get a game till 4e came out. 4e is what I want in some ways, but exactly what I want? No, there isn't a game that does that. [Oh yes, and I'm just starting an online game of mage. My character's just starting to awaken, and its not nice] |
| #130sciborg3Jul 02, 2011 11:31:12 | I think diversification of product is important. One cannot expect to match Hasboro's desired profits on D&D sales alone. This is where 4e stumbled, in attempting to create an overarching/consuming fluff in addition to the rules. Post Spellplague FR, like Dragonlance in the 5th Age, created a setting that was so different thematically from the old it impacts sales of novels, CRPG licenses, and possibly deals for animation and film. No longer are people who would buy your licenses assured of the fan base you enjoyed in the past. How many people who'd read the novels of those settings shook their heads in confusion at the alterations to their fantasy world, one they enjoyed only through novels or CRPGs? 4e also had a terrible marketing rollout: Cancellation of the mags didn't help, nor did the blanket criticism to old fluff. The former spawned a lot of bad blood, as it made people aware that the community they perceived and the corporate reality were not one and the same. Regarding the latter - everyone, including designers, are entitled to their opinions, but claiming you are fixing fluff is a silly way to promote a new rules sysem. In the same way I try not to revisit places where the staff is rude to me, I saw little reason to buy from a company that attacks what I like in the settings. (Not to mention it's rather unprofessional to publicy insult the work of your predecessors, especially for creative ideas). 4e came with a lot of baggage outside the rules, a lot of promises to take gaming in a new digital direction. In the end people saw it as one option in a slew of options (GURPS and other rule sets, and ultimately PF). Then the side-dishes to go along with in the DDI never seemed to materialize. 4e was a big enough change that it should not have been put out with sweeping changes and promises that offered less to those who appreciated what had come before it. Why has PF enjoyed success? A large part of this, initially, I believe was the reputation Paizo earned from the quality production of the mags. The products Paizo puts out are also higly imaginative and written either by fans who have earned their place as designers by contributions to their setting's communities or long time veterans who've earned the respect of fans. Paizo also sells 4e products and has forums for 4e discussion. This allows a community to transcend rules systems, and in the same way you buy a book without Amazon's discount at Barnes because you enjoy their cafe and ability to walk in and read books/comics/mags, people buy from Paizo to keep this feeling of a shared space alive. Wizards could gut D&D tomorrow (not saying they will) and people know that Paizo will still be out there, along with a lot of support from smaller companies. Paizo also seems to have more cross connection to Kobold Quarterly, and I presume other third party design companies. This encourages people to support the core PF rules as they know there are more options for their tastes. I know there are 4e products out there not made by WotC, but honestly it doesn't feel like WotC cares or bothers with them. Paizo might not do that much either, but because they are a distributor as well as a ruleset designer it keeps me and others in the loop. Part of me thinks 5e should allow easier conversion between itself and PF, but I'm not convinced this will line the coffers. I also can't see a revolutionary system that pleases everyone coming to pass, so I really don't think rules alone will bring money to WotC. Will 5e recreate a unified D&D community? The problem is to what extent will the game be like 4th edition and to what extent will be like AD&D? What do people who are enjoying their own creative communities for the old settings have to gain by supporting it? Will we still have Points of Light? - because I think this is a type of setting that has its place but after 2-3 fluff purchases there's little need to spend money on such an idea. I guess that's the big question. How many people are playing for the ruleset and how many for the setting? The former require a much more balanced ruleset, the latter just need a framework to run the fantasy playing through their minds. |
| #131tallric_kruushJul 02, 2011 13:38:52 | Pathfinder still has alot of 3.5's issues although it is better balenced than 3.5 and with some houserules it is a fine RPG. The books look good and Paizo seems to be running a tighter ship than WoTC these days. I've run both 4th ed and PF and I like them both but I'm leaning 4th eds way ATM. I'm about 9 or 10 pages late to this party, but this is very much how I'm feeling, of late. 4E fixed several of my gripes with 3E, even a few I didn't realize I had until 4E arrived; but there are likewise some things I miss about 3E. Paizo's handling of Pathfinder is pretty impressive, and they now have my attention. I've yet to purchase any of their products, and may never do so, but I've begun researching them. 3E's general clunkiness vs 4E's elegance keeps me, at best, on the fence. PF's constant stream of quality support, though, is a big deal for me. I guess if WotC would step up their release schedule, emmulate Paizo's adventure support, and get back to the original 4E design philosophy, I'd be content to play 4E for the foreseeable future. That's just me, but those issues are the issues, I think, that have caused my eye to wonder. |
| #132OgiwanJul 02, 2011 13:41:34 | I guess if WotC would step up their release schedule, emmulate Paizo's adventure support, and get back to the original 4E design philosophy.... I'd be really bloody happy. |
| #133tallric_kruushJul 02, 2011 13:47:53 | I guess if WotC would step up their release schedule, emmulate Paizo's adventure support, and get back to the original 4E design philosophy.... Honestly, I think most of the disheartened forumites would, whether they've been vocal or not. We haven't been given much in about a year, the stuff we have been given was different than the stuff we'd come to expect, and now content of any sort has slowed to a trickle. Whatever's happening behind the WotC curtain, I'm sure it's a symptom of th economy. Paizo, though, seems to be flourishing. I can't help but have a wandering eye, now and then. We were reminiscing about the old days of Eberron's launch on another thread (that now seems to have disappeared). I loved the constant stream of products of that era. I can only assume it isn't financially viable, these days, or else they'd be happily selling us 10 new books per month. I think I've mostly been looking at PF because they're consistently getting new content. |
| #134OgiwanJul 02, 2011 13:52:18 | Ahhh Eberron....how awesome ye are, and your earlier artwork.... Anyways. I'm kinda thinking that the reason we haven't gotten much is the lukewarm (positive) reception (at best; the negative reception is a bit more....heated) to Essentials. I can just see the WotC people being quite proud of Essentials, only to have it hurled back in their face by screaming fans. Essentially, I figure that WotC is trying to recover from Essentials. Not that it was bad, just.....I don't think they got as much out of it as they thought they would. |
| #135sciborg3Jul 02, 2011 13:53:18 | I guess if WotC would step up their release schedule, emmulate Paizo's adventure support, and get back to the original 4E design philosophy.... Paizo also has PDF sales to back up publication. I also feel like I can sink into the game even when I'm not playing - there seems to be things to do there even as a lurker. The major players in the company post in the forums, and they have designers whose work I followed for years posting. Does WotC have a central D&D blog? I don't even know. Seems like there is a lot of stuff that falls under the DDI that should be more prominent and publicly available. |
| #136tallric_kruushJul 02, 2011 13:56:02 | I guess if WotC would step up their release schedule, emmulate Paizo's adventure support, and get back to the original 4E design philosophy.... Agreed. |
| #137sciborg3Jul 02, 2011 14:06:27 | Also, even if stuff isn't free, it would be nice to purchase Dragon and Dungeon issues individually or even microtransactions for the articles. They could even be priced so that the majority of people prefer the DDI. For example I would love to read about the archfey and the Eberron stuff but don't want to buy a subscription for the 10-12 articles a year that are likely to interest me. To add: I don't even play Magic: TG, never have, but I know more about what is happening in that setting than what is happening in D&D. I love reading about their worlds and looking at the artwork for that part of the site. |
| #138XguildJul 02, 2011 14:43:41 | Also, even if stuff isn't free, it would be nice to purchase Dragon and Dungeon issues individually or even microtransactions for the articles. They could even be priced so that the majority of people prefer the DDI. For example I would love to read about the archfey and the Eberron stuff but don't want to buy a subscription for the 10-12 articles a year that are likely to interest me. DDI conceptually never really materialized as intended. It was supposed to be a effectivly an online tool for creating characters, monsters, adventures and running them online. The Magazine articles really where supposed to be kind of a bonus and I don't recall whether that was even ever intended when they first set out, seems to me like it was something added to make up for the fact that their where so many other missing/promised features in DDI. DDI continues to be incomplete in terms of promised features and delivery of features, the big one missing is of course the one that is most important and was the big selling point, the online tools to run D&D over the internet. |
| #139tallric_kruushJul 02, 2011 19:25:48 | Both Xguild and sciborg3 make excellent points. It's a shame the reality of DDI has missed so widely the mark set by the designers' "hopes and dreams". DDI has been a disappointment to me, a subscriber, since its inception. Setting aside the vaporware/make-believe parts, even the magazine content has been far from what I expected. We were told up front that we'd only be getting 2 books per campaign setting, and that additional support would come via DDI. I wasn't thrilled, but that's that. The meager support the three settings have received, though, in these few years has been far less than I'd hoped. I understand the efforts to make content universal, rather than campaign specific; but the content provided is so PoL focused that it may as well be it's own campaign setting, anyway. I don't tell the same stories in Eberron that I tell in Athas, Faerun or our homebrew world. Tailoring material to each setting is part of the DM's job, but it just isn't the same as campaign-specific articles and adventures. Where are the articles offering setting-specific mechanics, such as items, feats and Paragon Paths? Where are the fluff articles to replace what we miss out on by not buying 12 different books for our favorite setting? There have been far too few Eberron, Dark Sun and Faerun-specific articles to suit me. I have a ton of older Eberron stuff, a bit of Dark Sun stuff and a good amount of partially invalidated Realms stuff, but I sure would like at least a steady trickle of new stuff. I don't have to have it, but it would've been great. I'm no economist, but I've always assumed that economic hardship has led to many of our gripes. All the things we wished for DDI, and DnD for that matter, may have been in the cards, originally. I work for a $50 billion per year retailor, and I've watched our stores change dramatically in the last five years, and not for the better. It's not that we were unhappy with the old ways of doing things, but rather that we can't remain profitable doing things the old way. Sadly, DnD finds itself in the same boat. The guys and gals at WotC are gamers, too, with our same passions. I can only assume that the economic realities of the present have hand-cuffed them, creatively speaking. EDIT: For sentence structure and clarity, after trading my iPhone for a laptop. |
| #140HaldrikJul 02, 2011 19:51:45 | From what I can tell: |
| #141tallric_kruushJul 02, 2011 19:59:48 |
I knew it! This is great news! I'm married to a Scrabble lover. I can't wait to rub it in her face! As an addendum to a few of my earlier posts, I dug into Pathfinder quite a bit this evening. The new (fairly new?) Magus class sounded cool, so I did a bit a research. I've confirmed that I still don't want to go back to 3E. Reading the mechanics of the class reaffirmed the elegance of 4E that I love so much. The work Paizo's doing is awesome, though, even if I prefer to play 4E. I wish WotC were half as awesome, honestly. The talent and passion is there, no doubt, but they must execute the business plan they're given. |
| #142sciborg3Jul 02, 2011 20:32:59 |
Yeah, nothing I've said is meant to be an attack on the designers at WotC either. I do feel in the dark about D&D, more so than about Magic which I don't play, and wish there was more stuff from Wizards to draw the community in. And it isn't just a 4e vs PF thing - Kobold Quarterly is universal in edition support and they have contests, open design projects requesting patronage, and put out a mag every 4 months. I really, really wish WotC put out the Mags as PDFs every month. I buy lots and lots of PDFs, I just don't have room for the books and like to read setting material on the laptop while traveling. Also, there are great communties out there like Fraternity of Shadows and Planewalker (in sig). Cool that WotC has Domains of Dread in Shadowfell, but why not do a Ravenloft issue every Halloween? Why not to do an official planar conversion or nod to the old cosmos every so often? Some of the best issues in Dragon were the salutes to the old settings. =-=-= Cue shameless plug: In case anyone is interested, the latest KQ Open Design Project is about the Planes. |