Sad day...
Sounds like the RPG community we all know and love.
Sounds like the RPG community we all know and love.
Sigh. Yep, pretty much.
-O
I completely agree with him about the poisonous atmosphere surrounding online RPG communities in general. It's a hobby that takes the worst characteristics of the internet and magnifies them tenfold.
I don't think that's true of any other system though. Looking at FFG or paizo there doesn't seem to be the kind of outrage that 4e produces.
I completely agree with him about the poisonous atmosphere surrounding online RPG communities in general. It's a hobby that takes the worst characteristics of the internet and magnifies them tenfold.
I don't think that's true of any other system though. Looking at FFG or paizo there doesn't seem to be the kind of outrage that 4e produces.
Maybe those companies don't mess with the basic principles of the systems they have created mid-edition.
Also, I haven't heard of Fourthcore before this.
I completely agree with him about the poisonous atmosphere surrounding online RPG communities in general. It's a hobby that takes the worst characteristics of the internet and magnifies them tenfold.
I don't think that's true of any other system though. Looking at FFG or paizo there doesn't seem to be the kind of outrage that 4e produces.
4e has more players. 4e has more people who will complain.
Looking at FFG or paizo there doesn't seem to be the kind of outrage that 4e produces.
Have you tried to criticize Pathfinder in the Paizo forums? I did, duiring its beta test period. I agreed with someone else's modest suggestion of a streamlined way to handle wealth management. While the developers were nothign but kind, the fanbase was rabid. I got similarly lambasted when I suggested a modification to the Fly skill. I stopped posting after that.
Critics stick around here because D&D is the biggest fish so people have the most to gain or lose by changign it. If you don't get treated well at the Fantasy Flight, nobody's wedded to those games. So what if Pathfinder doesn't adopt your ideas? You just hop over to Kenzer or Green Ronin.
But general RPG boards like EnWorld, RPG.net and the like? It's gets as bad as it does here, except the moderators are less tolerant of poor behavior than they are here
Hopefully they rebound strong, whatever their next project. The creative juices were gushing over there whether you liked the style or not.
Sounds like he ran into a lot of non-4E people who were violently uninterested in the concept of 4E being able to run a different style of game while also running into 4E players who were violently satisfied with the 4E they had and were violently uninterested in doing different things with it.
Sounds like the RPG community we all know and love.
The Fourthcore blog.
This bloggers frustration is with the “Old School” D&D gamers, not with the 4e gamers:
• “I find the culture surrounding D&D to be unbelievably poisonous.” That is, the “Old School” D&D culture.
• “I was adamant about proving to the geek world [via Fourthcore] that you could play deadly, chaotic, dungeon-oriented, ‛old-school’ games with 4E without much fiddling. Over time, I learned it was a useless proposition. People who were set against 4E vehemently disagreed anyway.”
He has no gripe with 4e gamers.
• “Those who embraced [4e] already loved the [Fourthcore] system and loved exploring it.”
Re 4e gamers, his only frustration is he is preaching to the choir - who already understand and appreciate 4e - and who already appreciate what Fourthcore is doing with it.
Re the “Old School”, they made him hate all of D&D, because of its association with the “Old School”.
Even so, the blogger still has a special love for D&D 4e:
• “Don’t get me wrong. I am sick in love with D&D, especially 4E.”
Fourthcore is yet an other example of how economically futile it is to redo 4e as “Essential” in order to appeal to the “Old School”. The Old School has already spent their money in a preexisting system, dont care how bad that system is - theyv already fixed the system via houserules, investing their own selves, and have zero intention to switch to Essential, no matter what it looks like.
I feel the wizards.com forums are relatively upbeat and positive. The mods walk a fine line between eliminating disruptions and encouraging self-regulation - I feel the mods generaly do a good job.
4e is great, and the 4e forums are great.
(Not including the stuff that had to be deleted by ORCs.)
In other words, the brutality of the Fourthcore setting is a nice place to visit, but 4e gamers wouldnt want to live there.
Designwise, there seems an inverse relationship between investing in character development and engaging a hyper-deadly adventure.
Here's the thread FLAvatar references. Some choice insults thrown at the game: "stupid-difficult", "the crutch of a weak DM", "I despise the entire Fourthcore philosophy", "it's just asinine", "it's terrible game design", "[d]oes it get any more videogamey".
To me the consensus of that thread is, 4e gamers dont use Fourthcore as a campaign setting, but like it for a one-off adventure, for a change of pace.
In other words, the brutality of the Fourthcore setting is a nice place to visit, but 4e gamers wouldnt want to live there.
I will just say that the vibe I got was a lot more along the lines of wrecan's interpretation than yours.
It wasn't just the grognards who were having a problem with it, IMO.
-O
Generally, 4e gamers dont want a death-at-random campaign setting.
But. For one-offs, 4e gamers do appreciate this kind of setting.
In the Fourthcore blog, the blogger himself specifically says those who embrace 4e generally “loved” Fourthcore.
Here's the thread FLAvatar references. Some choice insults thrown at the game: "stupid-difficult", "the crutch of a weak DM", "I despise the entire Fourthcore philosophy", "it's just asinine", "it's terrible game design", "[d]oes it get any more videogamey".
(Not including the stuff that had to be deleted by ORCs.)
WoW fun comments ;p - mine comes in under "not vaguely interested"
It's still not necessary to be so uncivil. I mean, the guy has withdrawn from RPG design altogether and people in this very thread are calling him "dork". To what end?
Well, clearly in pursuit of gaming purity. I mean, it wouldn't do for people to be having fun gaming in a way that others don't approve of!
You HAVE been on the internet recently, haven't you?
-O
All of which is in the DMG. Could have simply have said "Use rarity rules and the information of pg# (whatever it is) of the DMG."
Wait, what?
Weren't you just complaining there wasn't enough information in the article? Now there was too much?
-O
All of which is in the DMG. Could have simply have said "Use rarity rules and the information of pg# (whatever it is) of the DMG."
Wait, what?
Weren't you just complaining there wasn't enough information in the article? Now there was too much?
-O
He tricked you by putting a worm on the hook using a double negative.
He tricked you by putting a worm on the hook using a double negative.
Hah!
-O
yeah thats basically the standard dmg, its what used on 99% of the vt games as well
the question is what would you play?
sadly my game shop wont run that but hopefully i can get my grubby hands on the encounters
sadly my game shop wont run that but hopefully i can get my grubby hands on the encounters
Agreed, are those hard to procure?
Here's the thread FLAvatar references. Some choice insults thrown at the game: "stupid-difficult", "the crutch of a weak DM", "I despise the entire Fourthcore philosophy", "it's just asinine", "it's terrible game design", "[d]oes it get any more videogamey".
(Not including the stuff that had to be deleted by ORCs.)
Fourthcore looks, or rather looked, interesting in its own right, but it also looks like it goes against its own premise. It looks very much like it completely overhauls 4e to do what, by default, 4e apparently doesn't do.
As for the bitter audience, welcome to the forums since 4E hit.
As for finding it hard to write within the confines of limited design space, WoTC says,"welcome to the club, we don't know what to do with it apparently either". Or so it would seem these days, to me anyway.
Besides a few things that can kill you instantly (usually with some kind of warning) what does fourthcore do tha tbreaks the expectations of 4e? I mean it emphasizes team play, gives ample challenge and is fun. What is "wrong" with it?
My guess is that it is not RAW enough and therefore is Badwrongfun TM .
As for the bitter audience, welcome to the forums since 4E hit.
Were you here when 3e first came? If you were you would know that it was ugly then too...
As for the bitter audience, welcome to the forums since 4E hit.
Were you here when 3e first came? If you were you would know that it was ugly then too...
I was, and it wasn't pretty, but it didn't last as long as the edition warring this time, and it wasn't as bitter either. I am not blaming 4E for it, I like 4E, I also liked 3.5, I did not like 2nd Ed. But the transition from 2nd to 3.x wasn't this ugly. We are what, 3 years into this edition, and its still raging. Now instead of it being 3.x is better than 4E, we are getting Pathfinder is better than 4E, which is basically the same thing. My assertion is that if you have a problem with 4E, let WoTC know, but if you just plain like 3.75 aka PF better, then ummm....go play it.
Besides a few things that can kill you instantly (usually with some kind of warning) what does fourthcore do tha tbreaks the expectations of 4e? I mean it emphasizes team play, gives ample challenge and is fun. What is "wrong" with it?
It can actually kill your player, and is therefore the inferior lawl. ;)
Besides a few things that can kill you instantly (usually with some kind of warning) what does fourthcore do tha tbreaks the expectations of 4e? I mean it emphasizes team play, gives ample challenge and is fun. What is "wrong" with it?
It can actually kill your player, and is therefore the inferior lawl. ;)
Well, I think the police should get involved then fourthcore is obviously a horrible hame that leads to homocide.
But more seriously, if death isnt supposed to be a part of DnD then why are their rules for it?