Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 emkj Mar 02, 2011 17:38:23	A lot of people agree that D&D has historically heavily favored spellcasters after about a third of the way thru leveling and the classes we drastically unbalanced at the endgame.  I'm trying to brainstorm an approach to correcting this inbalance in a way that maybe makes more sense than the 4e "make everyone a Vancian caster" approach.  So, I'm thinking of look at fantasy source material: the novels and epic tales that inspired fantasy roleplaying games in the first place. So, since I don't have the time to read all  the great fantasy literature in one setting, I thought I'd ask everyone here:   How have you seen warior characters in fantasy books overcome spellcasters? I recently read a Conan story where Conan's encounter with a wizard was a bit anticlimatic - he just threw a dagger at him and killed him in one shot while the wizard was trying to cast a spell.  So, in that case, spellcasting probably took more than the typical "Standard Action" and the wizard had *very* low Hit Points and no protective magic in place (even though he was anticipating the encounter).
#2 arderkrag Mar 08, 2011 15:15:21	A lot of people agree that D&D has historically heavily favored spellcasters after about a third of the way thru leveling and the classes we drastically unbalanced at the endgame.  I'm trying to brainstorm an approach to correcting this inbalance in a way that maybe makes more sense than the 4e "make everyone a Vancian caster" approach.  So, I'm thinking of look at fantasy source material: the novels and epic tales that inspired fantasy roleplaying games in the first place. So, since I don't have the time to read all  the great fantasy literature in one setting, I thought I'd ask everyone here:   How have you seen warior characters in fantasy books overcome spellcasters? I recently read a Conan story where Conan's encounter with a wizard was a bit anticlimatic - he just threw a dagger at him and killed him in one shot while the wizard was trying to cast a spell.  So, in that case, spellcasting probably took more than the typical "Standard Action" and the wizard had *very* low Hit Points and no protective magic in place (even though he was anticipating the encounter). Well, yeh. That's even the way things are set up in the Conan rpg. Scholars (the casting class) go down like a blade of grass when someone actually hits them. Caster vs. Noncaster in literature is usually handled via a deus ex machina (plot device item), the noncaster being able to dodge or overcome the effect of the magic (saving throws), or sheer luck (DM fiat or unpreparedness). So, pretty much, the same as in tabletop rpgs.
#3 pluisjen Mar 08, 2011 15:18:13	Or by making the fighters full of win and awesome, by way of items or otherwise. Feist for example features Thomas, who is a Fighter but also as powerful as Puc the Wizard. Mainly because of the thing he found in a cave, but I won't spoiler it
#4 kvothewhiskeyjack Mar 17, 2011 10:32:19	I definitely agree that D&D has historically favored spellcasters after about a third of the way thru leveling, or roughly, beginning somewhere btwn levels 6-8.  An approach that I have used with my groups to help correct this imbalance, perhaps in a way that makes more sense than the 4e "make everyone a Vancian caster" approach (or the "spoon fed, canned character, everybody's the same on paper" approach- sorry, couldn't help myself), is to use pre-existing d&d ideas, in a slightly different way.  That is, using the concepts of spell resistance+saving throws, but instead of using only race+ability scores+save scores+class etc., you also take into account the opposing/resisting/saving characters' level(s).  In other words, spells will almost always come down to rolling dice (and obviously any dm can make exceptions for certain spells "magic missile", non-attack spells, or indirect attack spells etc., as it's a homebrew rule, so each person can just tailor there own system accordingly), but every dice roll wil take into account the defending character's level (a reflection of his or her experience).  Thus, while it will still be easy for a level 10 wizard to annihilate a couple of level 5 fighters, it will be very difficult, and indeed, highly unlikely, that a level 8 wizard will be able to take down a level 12 fighter one on one (which has been the case for far too long).  Now, alot of traditional and old-school players, have told me that they would rather use their in game savvy and genius alone, to escape or win, and let the rules favor spellcasters.  And while I agree with this on some level, the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.  The use of clever and original ideas to escape deadly spellcasters are still awesome and essential to a successful party.  This solution merely allows for a new potential layer of defense which corresponds to and reflects the growing experience of a character.  I have always thought that the novels and epic tales that inspired fantasy roleplaying games in the first place, kind of inherently did this.  Whether the fighter dodges, shrugs off, wins a battle of wills, understands how to avoid through familiarity, or can just walk through a spell, I think that experience is a critical reason for success against the spellcaster that is just not accounted for enough in traditional d&d rules...