Hypothetical: 5e comes out, 4e fans hate it; what would be our "Pathfinder"? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Hypothetical: 5e comes out, 4e fans hate it; what would be our "Pathfinder"?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
OgreBattle
Nov 29, 2011 22:24:24 Hypothetical scenario: 5e comes out, it alienates 4e fans with its changes (this is not a thread to discuss what changes... for the sake of this scenario its just BadWrongChanges)

So what does that leave 4e fans with? The SRD allowed Pathfinder to exist to regurgitate 3.X, but does such an option exist with 4e?

Legally, how far can you go in reproducing 4e rules and selling them as your own product?
Pathfinder's success was being an authority of 3.X, could the same alternative exist for abandoned 4e fans?
#2
incenjucar
Nov 29, 2011 22:30:10 4E fans would play 4E and just make stuff for each other. It's such a clean system that it's fairly easy to develop for it, even if the sheer variety of powers make it arduous. The only hard part would be if they shut down the compendium.
#3
The_Jester
Nov 29, 2011 22:43:55 Essentials. ;)

Or someone will use the 3e OGL to make a 4e flavour of 3e, but with smoother epic play.

Honestly, 5e is all but guaranteed to be very different. The big edition changes (BECMI, 1e, 3e, 4e) have all appealed to very different gamers. I think WotC knows that selling to the 4e fans, who already have a game they like, won't work. They need to shift to a different direction and attract different players and hope enough 3e/4e players come with them.
If 5e is just 4e revised, it will not work. It won't broaden the audience any more than a reprinting of the PHB with extra hype. And if it's just a cosmetic change, few 4e fans will buy in as they already have that edition. There needs to be a sizable change to warrant re-buying the books.

If you're a huge 4e fan, and your favourite edition is 4e, and you cannot imagine any improvement... you'll probably be really dissapointed by 5e. Get used to that idea. This is not to say it will be anything like 3e any more than 4e was like 2e. It will just be different. If anything, it will move further from the fiddly bits and simulation of 3e and more to abstraction. A very rules-lite system. That's my guess.
#4
incenjucar
Nov 29, 2011 22:47:30 Of course, if history repeats itself, 6th edition may be for the 4th edition audience that gets left behind by 5th edition. :P
#5
kthulhux
Dec 05, 2011 8:20:26 As I understand the GSL, there won't be anything that can step in and be an officially supported version of 4E. So, other than using the 4E books, nothing.

And what makes you think they'd be more willing to continue to support 4E in the future than they have been to support other previos editions?

Face the facts: because WotC tooks such steps to legally close off 4E, and made it so reliant on DDI, once 4E goes away, it's even more gone than the 1974 original D&D.
#6
Tony_Vargas
Dec 08, 2011 3:03:45
Hypothetical scenario: 5e comes out, it alienates 4e fans with its changes (this is not a thread to discuss what changes... for the sake of this scenario its just BadWrongChanges)

So what does that leave 4e fans with? The SRD allowed Pathfinder to exist to regurgitate 3.X, but does such an option exist with 4e?

Not really, the GSL is more restrictive than the OGL.

And, of course, since the resources - CB, MB, VT - are on-line only, WotC can switch them off at any time.

3.5/Pathfinder is here to stay. 4e will be slashed & burned to make way for 5e - which'll probably resemble AD&D or 3.x a lot more than it will 4e.

Enjoy the non-sucky version of D&D while it lasts, folks.
#7
guest1458177341
Dec 08, 2011 12:13:32 I'm not going to be a defeatist.

3rd edition was a huge improvement on 2nd edition. I (yes STILL) know people who mourn the loss of THAC0, but the fact of the matter is, 3rd was better. Period.

3.5 was an improvement on 3. Not a HUGE GAMEBREAKING one, but it got better.

4th was better than 3rd.

If 5th comes out, I'll see.
#8
kthulhux
Dec 10, 2011 0:43:55
Hypothetical scenario: 5e comes out, it alienates 4e fans with its changes (this is not a thread to discuss what changes... for the sake of this scenario its just BadWrongChanges)

So what does that leave 4e fans with? The SRD allowed Pathfinder to exist to regurgitate 3.X, but does such an option exist with 4e?

Not really, the GSL is more restrictive than the OGL.

And, of course, since the resources - CB, MB, VT - are on-line only, WotC can switch them off at any time.

3.5/Pathfinder is here to stay. 4e will be slashed & burned to make way for 5e - which'll probably resemble AD&D or 3.x a lot more than it will 4e.

Enjoy the non-sucky version of D&D while it lasts, folks.

What you consider a non-sucky version of D&D is a matter of opinion. My personal favorite game at the moment is Swords & Wizardry, a retro-clone of 0E.

I held of on evey trying out 4E for a couple of years, and I'm damn glad I did. Because in addition to WotC making fluff changes that I largely dislike; the level of support has been exceedingly minimal. That's the biggest problem with 4E in my opinion...while WotC flung out a fairly steady stream of rulebooks early in it's life cycle, there's been no actual SUPPORT of those rulebooks. By which I mean the meat of any RPG experience, the adventures.

I'm rather indifferent to the metchanical changes that 4E brought to D&D. Like a few, don't like some, but nothing was really make-or-break. But like I said, the level of support made all the difference. Maybe DDI offered a vast amount of support, but as something that can be turned off and completely disappear at a moment's notice, it never factored into my decision regarding 4E even slightly.
#9
kthulhux
Dec 10, 2011 0:46:24
I'm not going to be a defeatist.

3rd edition was a huge improvement on 2nd edition. I (yes STILL) know people who mourn the loss of THAC0, but the fact of the matter is, 3rd was better. Period.

3.5 was an improvement on 3. Not a HUGE GAMEBREAKING one, but it got better.

4th was better than 3rd.

If 5th comes out, I'll see.

Again, which editions where an improvement over which editions is a matter of opinion. I personally think that the dawn of 3E and d20 brought on an era of tedious nit-picking over insignificant minutia that wasn't present in the previous editions, or at least not on such a massive scale.
#10
Zardnaar
Dec 10, 2011 14:20:45 3rd ed was more or less the start of forums for mass consumption as well. I remeber doing 2nd ed stuff online but not like it is now.
#11
guest1458177341
Dec 15, 2011 4:32:29
I'm not going to be a defeatist.

3rd edition was a huge improvement on 2nd edition. I (yes STILL) know people who mourn the loss of THAC0, but the fact of the matter is, 3rd was better. Period.

3.5 was an improvement on 3. Not a HUGE GAMEBREAKING one, but it got better.

4th was better than 3rd.

If 5th comes out, I'll see.

Again, which editions where an improvement over which editions is a matter of opinion. I personally think that the dawn of 3E and d20 brought on an era of tedious nit-picking over insignificant minutia that wasn't present in the previous editions, or at least not on such a massive scale.

And your opinion is defective.

Why? Because you're complaining about PEOPLE. We're discussing SYSTEMS.

2nd edition was a much worse system. Lookup tables, unintuitive rules, spells that destroyed entire categories of gameplay, and ridiculous convoluted magic item rules that just resulted in 'and then item x breaks the game anyway.'

People don't magically change because editions do.
#12
kthulhux
Dec 15, 2011 7:41:38
And your opinion is defective.

Wow dude, you're really quite an ass.
#13
guest1458177341
Dec 15, 2011 10:33:50
And your opinion is defective.

Wow dude, you're really quite an ass.

I apologize for being right again.
#14
kthulhux
Dec 15, 2011 11:50:10
And your opinion is defective.

Wow dude, you're really quite an ass.

I apologize for being right again.

Funny, seems like you're going out of your way just to prove me right, now.

#15
pluisjen
Dec 15, 2011 11:52:55 He's correct, though. When you discuss the system, you can't use "how people used it" as an argument, since that's a completely different thing. System-wise, one thing can be better then another, and yet the worse thing can still be more fun.

That doesn't make it a better system, just a more fun one.
#16
kthulhux
Dec 16, 2011 2:36:04
That doesn't make it a better system, just a more fun one.

Given that the goal of the system is to have fun, I'd say that it damn well does make it a "better system". That's just my opinion, and according to some raging ****s on the board, any opinion that varies from their own is "defective".

Then again, when someone is as utterly dismissive and comtemptuous as that, I consider their continued existence "defective". The dismissiveness does seem to be a defining characteristic of these boards, however.
#17
thecasualoblivion
Dec 17, 2011 11:13:25 I don't see the same sort of uproar coming for the next edition change. Most of the sacred cows are already dead, and there is less to to be angry about. Most of 4E is fairly new, and there isnt 30 years of inertia to deal with. In addition, the OGL has already been killed, so that uproar won't happen next time.

There is only one possible sticking point, and that is DDI. As a 4E player, I can't contemplate 4E without it. The system is too big to manage without the builder and compendium, and 4E's mountain of errata would be hell without it.

Eliminating 4E DDI would be a PR disaster bigger than anything seen in the past two edition changes. It would cost them nothing to just continue the tools and bundle them with 5E DDI, 4E players would still be paying customers who require no maintenance. Dropping 4E DDI wouldn't be worth it.
#18
Zardnaar
Dec 25, 2011 16:06:52 Except DDI would cannibalise sales of 5th ed so bye bye to DDI IMHO once 5th ed hits. Or at least it will be DDI for 5th ed. The assumption would be enough people will switch over to not matter.
#19
thecasualoblivion
Dec 26, 2011 15:02:15 If DDI is one package for one price, how would it be cannibalizing anything?
#20
pluisjen
Dec 28, 2011 2:38:16
That doesn't make it a better system, just a more fun one.

Given that the goal of the system is to have fun, I'd say that it damn well does make it a "better system". That's just my opinion, and according to some raging ****s on the board, any opinion that varies from their own is "defective".

Then again, when someone is as utterly dismissive and comtemptuous as that, I consider their continued existence "defective". The dismissiveness does seem to be a defining characteristic of these boards, however.

Some people think it is fun to go to the streets and beat up defenseless people in large mobs. I guess by your definition, that must be a great game as well.

Just because people enjoy it does not mean it's mechanically well designed, nor a good game. It just means people got together and had a good time (which, unsurprisingly, will happen when you bring a group of friends around a table and give them a subject for discussion) but not much more then that.
#21
bone_naga
Dec 29, 2011 20:56:25
As I understand the GSL, there won't be anything that can step in and be an officially supported version of 4E. So, other than using the 4E books, nothing.

And what makes you think they'd be more willing to continue to support 4E in the future than they have been to support other previos editions?

Face the facts: because WotC tooks such steps to legally close off 4E, and made it so reliant on DDI, once 4E goes away, it's even more gone than the 1974 original D&D.

Not true, anyone could still produce content, they just wouldn't be able to license it under the GSL. Dias Ex Machina has already announced plans to publish a 4e product (Ultramodern4) under the OGL instead.
#22
bone_naga
Dec 29, 2011 21:00:52
Hypothetical scenario: 5e comes out, it alienates 4e fans with its changes (this is not a thread to discuss what changes... for the sake of this scenario its just BadWrongChanges)

So what does that leave 4e fans with? The SRD allowed Pathfinder to exist to regurgitate 3.X, but does such an option exist with 4e?

Legally, how far can you go in reproducing 4e rules and selling them as your own product?
Pathfinder's success was being an authority of 3.X, could the same alternative exist for abandoned 4e fans?

The SRD is not the same. First of all, you cannot completely reproduce the 4e PHB like you could for 3e. Second, the GSL was written in a manner to allow WotC to cut it off once 5e appears. However, nothing is stopping someone from writing 4e compatible material and publishing it, even after 5e is released.

As for how far someone could go in reproducing rules, probably pretty far, but if they get into reproducing the exact same classes, powers, etc, I imagine they'd run into trouble real quick. So if you wanted to publish your own take on the fighter, knock yourself out. If you wanted to reproduce WotC's fighter with a few minor tweaks, that probably won't fly.
#23
Cyber-Dave
Jan 05, 2012 19:50:00
Games cannot be quantified as objectively better or worse.
#24
pluisjen
Jan 06, 2012 2:46:00

Games cannot be quantified as objectively better or worse.

While I agree that you cannot quantify any game as objectively more fun it is very possible to objectively quantify it as better design. Otherwise the field of gamedesign wouldn't exist.
#25
Tony_Vargas
Jan 06, 2012 3:40:38
Games cannot be quantified as objectively better or worse.

Tell that to Spawn of Fashan.

#26
Garthanos
Jan 06, 2012 8:14:12
Except DDI would cannibalise sales of 5th ed so bye bye to DDI IMHO once 5th ed hits. Or at least it will be DDI for 5th ed. The assumption would be enough people will switch over to not matter.

I agree.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 OgreBattle Nov 29, 2011 22:24:24	Hypothetical scenario: 5e comes out, it alienates 4e fans with its changes (this is not a thread to discuss what changes... for the sake of this scenario its just BadWrongChanges) So what does that leave 4e fans with? The SRD allowed Pathfinder to exist to regurgitate 3.X, but does such an option exist with 4e? Legally, how far can you go in reproducing 4e rules and selling them as your own product? Pathfinder's success was being an authority of 3.X, could the same alternative exist for abandoned 4e fans?
#2 incenjucar Nov 29, 2011 22:30:10	4E fans would play 4E and just make stuff for each other. It's such a clean system that it's fairly easy to develop for it, even if the sheer variety of powers make it arduous. The only hard part would be if they shut down the compendium.
#3 The_Jester Nov 29, 2011 22:43:55	Essentials. ;) Or someone will use the 3e OGL to make a 4e flavour of 3e, but with smoother epic play. Honestly, 5e is all but guaranteed to be very different. The big edition changes (BECMI, 1e, 3e, 4e) have all appealed to very different gamers. I think WotC knows that selling to the 4e fans, who already have a game they like, won't work. They need to shift to a different direction and attract different players and hope enough 3e/4e players come with them. If 5e is just 4e revised, it will not work. It won't broaden the audience any more than a reprinting of the PHB with extra hype. And if it's just a cosmetic change, few 4e fans will buy in as they already have that edition. There needs to be a sizable change to warrant re-buying the books. If you're a huge 4e fan, and your favourite edition is 4e, and you cannot imagine any improvement... you'll probably be really dissapointed by 5e. Get used to that idea. This is not to say it will be anything like 3e any more than 4e was like 2e. It will just be different. If anything, it will move further from the fiddly bits and simulation of 3e and more to abstraction. A very rules-lite system. That's my guess.
#4 incenjucar Nov 29, 2011 22:47:30	Of course, if history repeats itself, 6th edition may be for the 4th edition audience that gets left behind by 5th edition. :P
#5 kthulhux Dec 05, 2011 8:20:26	As I understand the GSL, there won't be anything that can step in and be an officially supported version of 4E. So, other than using the 4E books, nothing. And what makes you think they'd be more willing to continue to support 4E in the future than they have been to support other previos editions? Face the facts: because WotC tooks such steps to legally close off 4E, and made it so reliant on DDI, once 4E goes away, it's even more gone than the 1974 original D&D.
#6 Tony_Vargas Dec 08, 2011 3:03:45	Hypothetical scenario: 5e comes out, it alienates 4e fans with its changes (this is not a thread to discuss what changes... for the sake of this scenario its just BadWrongChanges) So what does that leave 4e fans with? The SRD allowed Pathfinder to exist to regurgitate 3.X, but does such an option exist with 4e? Not really, the GSL is more restrictive than the OGL. And, of course, since the resources - CB, MB, VT - are on-line only, WotC can switch them off at any time. 3.5/Pathfinder is here to stay. 4e will be slashed & burned to make way for 5e - which'll probably resemble AD&D or 3.x a lot more than it will 4e. Enjoy the non-sucky version of D&D while it lasts, folks.
#7 guest1458177341 Dec 08, 2011 12:13:32	I'm not going to be a defeatist. 3rd edition was a huge improvement on 2nd edition. I (yes STILL) know people who mourn the loss of THAC0, but the fact of the matter is, 3rd was better. Period. 3.5 was an improvement on 3. Not a HUGE GAMEBREAKING one, but it got better. 4th was better than 3rd. If 5th comes out, I'll see.
#8 kthulhux Dec 10, 2011 0:43:55	Hypothetical scenario: 5e comes out, it alienates 4e fans with its changes (this is not a thread to discuss what changes... for the sake of this scenario its just BadWrongChanges) So what does that leave 4e fans with? The SRD allowed Pathfinder to exist to regurgitate 3.X, but does such an option exist with 4e? Not really, the GSL is more restrictive than the OGL. And, of course, since the resources - CB, MB, VT - are on-line only, WotC can switch them off at any time. 3.5/Pathfinder is here to stay. 4e will be slashed & burned to make way for 5e - which'll probably resemble AD&D or 3.x a lot more than it will 4e. Enjoy the non-sucky version of D&D while it lasts, folks. What you consider a non-sucky version of D&D is a matter of opinion. My personal favorite game at the moment is Swords & Wizardry, a retro-clone of 0E. I held of on evey trying out 4E for a couple of years, and I'm damn glad I did. Because in addition to WotC making fluff changes that I largely dislike; the level of support has been exceedingly minimal. That's the biggest problem with 4E in my opinion...while WotC flung out a fairly steady stream of rulebooks early in it's life cycle, there's been no actual SUPPORT of those rulebooks. By which I mean the meat of any RPG experience, the adventures. I'm rather indifferent to the metchanical changes that 4E brought to D&D. Like a few, don't like some, but nothing was really make-or-break. But like I said, the level of support made all the difference. Maybe DDI offered a vast amount of support, but as something that can be turned off and completely disappear at a moment's notice, it never factored into my decision regarding 4E even slightly.
#9 kthulhux Dec 10, 2011 0:46:24	I'm not going to be a defeatist. 3rd edition was a huge improvement on 2nd edition. I (yes STILL) know people who mourn the loss of THAC0, but the fact of the matter is, 3rd was better. Period. 3.5 was an improvement on 3. Not a HUGE GAMEBREAKING one, but it got better. 4th was better than 3rd. If 5th comes out, I'll see. Again, which editions where an improvement over which editions is a matter of opinion. I personally think that the dawn of 3E and d20 brought on an era of tedious nit-picking over insignificant minutia that wasn't present in the previous editions, or at least not on such a massive scale.
#10 Zardnaar Dec 10, 2011 14:20:45	3rd ed was more or less the start of forums for mass consumption as well. I remeber doing 2nd ed stuff online but not like it is now.
#11 guest1458177341 Dec 15, 2011 4:32:29	I'm not going to be a defeatist. 3rd edition was a huge improvement on 2nd edition. I (yes STILL) know people who mourn the loss of THAC0, but the fact of the matter is, 3rd was better. Period. 3.5 was an improvement on 3. Not a HUGE GAMEBREAKING one, but it got better. 4th was better than 3rd. If 5th comes out, I'll see. Again, which editions where an improvement over which editions is a matter of opinion. I personally think that the dawn of 3E and d20 brought on an era of tedious nit-picking over insignificant minutia that wasn't present in the previous editions, or at least not on such a massive scale. And your opinion is defective. Why? Because you're complaining about PEOPLE. We're discussing SYSTEMS. 2nd edition was a much worse system. Lookup tables, unintuitive rules, spells that destroyed entire categories of gameplay, and ridiculous convoluted magic item rules that just resulted in 'and then item x breaks the game anyway.' People don't magically change because editions do.
#12 kthulhux Dec 15, 2011 7:41:38	And your opinion is defective. Wow dude, you're really quite an ass.
#13 guest1458177341 Dec 15, 2011 10:33:50	And your opinion is defective. Wow dude, you're really quite an ass. I apologize for being right again.
#14 kthulhux Dec 15, 2011 11:50:10	And your opinion is defective. Wow dude, you're really quite an ass. I apologize for being right again. Funny, seems like you're going out of your way just to prove me right, now.
#15 pluisjen Dec 15, 2011 11:52:55	He's correct, though. When you discuss the system, you can't use "how people used it" as an argument, since that's a completely different thing. System-wise, one thing can be better then another, and yet the worse thing can still be more fun. That doesn't make it a better system, just a more fun one.
#16 kthulhux Dec 16, 2011 2:36:04	That doesn't make it a better system, just a more fun one. Given that the goal of the system is to have fun, I'd say that it damn well does make it a "better system". That's just my opinion, and according to some raging ****s on the board, any opinion that varies from their own is "defective". Then again, when someone is as utterly dismissive and comtemptuous as that, I consider their continued existence "defective". The dismissiveness does seem to be a defining characteristic of these boards, however.
#17 thecasualoblivion Dec 17, 2011 11:13:25	I don't see the same sort of uproar coming for the next edition change. Most of the sacred cows are already dead, and there is less to to be angry about. Most of 4E is fairly new, and there isnt 30 years of inertia to deal with. In addition, the OGL has already been killed, so that uproar won't happen next time. There is only one possible sticking point, and that is DDI. As a 4E player, I can't contemplate 4E without it. The system is too big to manage without the builder and compendium, and 4E's mountain of errata would be hell without it. Eliminating 4E DDI would be a PR disaster bigger than anything seen in the past two edition changes. It would cost them nothing to just continue the tools and bundle them with 5E DDI, 4E players would still be paying customers who require no maintenance. Dropping 4E DDI wouldn't be worth it.
#18 Zardnaar Dec 25, 2011 16:06:52	Except DDI would cannibalise sales of 5th ed so bye bye to DDI IMHO once 5th ed hits. Or at least it will be DDI for 5th ed. The assumption would be enough people will switch over to not matter.
#19 thecasualoblivion Dec 26, 2011 15:02:15	If DDI is one package for one price, how would it be cannibalizing anything?
#20 pluisjen Dec 28, 2011 2:38:16	That doesn't make it a better system, just a more fun one. Given that the goal of the system is to have fun, I'd say that it damn well does make it a "better system". That's just my opinion, and according to some raging ****s on the board, any opinion that varies from their own is "defective". Then again, when someone is as utterly dismissive and comtemptuous as that, I consider their continued existence "defective". The dismissiveness does seem to be a defining characteristic of these boards, however. Some people think it is fun to go to the streets and beat up defenseless people in large mobs. I guess by your definition, that must be a great game as well. Just because people enjoy it does not mean it's mechanically well designed, nor a good game. It just means people got together and had a good time (which, unsurprisingly, will happen when you bring a group of friends around a table and give them a subject for discussion) but not much more then that.
#21 bone_naga Dec 29, 2011 20:56:25	As I understand the GSL, there won't be anything that can step in and be an officially supported version of 4E. So, other than using the 4E books, nothing. And what makes you think they'd be more willing to continue to support 4E in the future than they have been to support other previos editions? Face the facts: because WotC tooks such steps to legally close off 4E, and made it so reliant on DDI, once 4E goes away, it's even more gone than the 1974 original D&D. Not true, anyone could still produce content, they just wouldn't be able to license it under the GSL. Dias Ex Machina has already announced plans to publish a 4e product (Ultramodern4) under the OGL instead.
#22 bone_naga Dec 29, 2011 21:00:52	Hypothetical scenario: 5e comes out, it alienates 4e fans with its changes (this is not a thread to discuss what changes... for the sake of this scenario its just BadWrongChanges) So what does that leave 4e fans with? The SRD allowed Pathfinder to exist to regurgitate 3.X, but does such an option exist with 4e? Legally, how far can you go in reproducing 4e rules and selling them as your own product? Pathfinder's success was being an authority of 3.X, could the same alternative exist for abandoned 4e fans? The SRD is not the same. First of all, you cannot completely reproduce the 4e PHB like you could for 3e. Second, the GSL was written in a manner to allow WotC to cut it off once 5e appears. However, nothing is stopping someone from writing 4e compatible material and publishing it, even after 5e is released. As for how far someone could go in reproducing rules, probably pretty far, but if they get into reproducing the exact same classes, powers, etc, I imagine they'd run into trouble real quick. So if you wanted to publish your own take on the fighter, knock yourself out. If you wanted to reproduce WotC's fighter with a few minor tweaks, that probably won't fly.
#23 Cyber-Dave Jan 05, 2012 19:50:00	Games cannot be quantified as objectively better or worse.
#24 pluisjen Jan 06, 2012 2:46:00	Games cannot be quantified as objectively better or worse. While I agree that you cannot quantify any game as objectively more fun it is very possible to objectively quantify it as better design. Otherwise the field of gamedesign wouldn't exist.
#25 Tony_Vargas Jan 06, 2012 3:40:38	Games cannot be quantified as objectively better or worse. Tell that to Spawn of Fashan.
#26 Garthanos Jan 06, 2012 8:14:12	Except DDI would cannibalise sales of 5th ed so bye bye to DDI IMHO once 5th ed hits. Or at least it will be DDI for 5th ed. The assumption would be enough people will switch over to not matter. I agree.