I really like 4e and I have no major problems with it. I DM two groups and everyone has a great time.
However I was reading some of the 5e speculation threads and it got me thinking - what else can 4e really offer now? I feel that all the mechanics have been used somewhere, and new monsters are just going to be similes of existing creatures. There's only so many things that powers and magic items can do before they start becoming a re-hash of some other classes power or some other item.
I think WotC have released too much content in the 3-4 years that 4e has been out and exhausted it too early. I think all that is left to release now are adventures, backgrounds and scenarios, which are nice but perhaps feel a bit lacking.
(Unless, of course, new supplemental rules are added, which opens up a different ball game and makes this post a bit moot)
I hope with 5e they "hold back" on plenty of mechanics and features so that there is plenty to release in the years afterwards. For completely random example, perhaps the "dazed" and "dominated" effects could be released later to add new fresh mechanics, this would also have the benefits of making the core rules simpler for beginners.
1. Now that they established most of the mechanics, they can actually start using those mechanics for what was first thought as lacking in 4E: fluff.
2. They still haven't given that much support for Epic tier yet.
3. If the Unearthed Arcana series in Dragon Magazine has anything to say about the matter, it's that there's a lot of mechanics that can still be introduced into the game that's flavorful and well-developed overall
In detail:
4E allowed for some crazy phenomenon fluff-wise, when read literally: knocking gelatinous cubes prone, druids who immobilize foes with plants even when in mid-air, and even pixies who can grab onto ancient dragons and preventing them from moving. This is because of the idea that fluff is mutable, and what matters most is the mechanics behind the fluff. And the concept is sound: rather than having a hundred conditions that add +2 to hit, you have a single condition instead (combat advantage) -- less to track, less headache, less houseruling, and (at least theoretically) more focus on the fun of the game.
[ Hmm, maybe they should've stuck to their bonuses to hit being "target grants combat advantage", but I guess that gets boring quick... now where was I? Oh right... ]
So the question is, what do we do now that the mechanics are all there? Well, there's the revival and development of various campaign worlds (Oriental Adventures, Dragonlance, Eberron, Dark Sun, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, to name a few). There's also injection of not just modules but entire campaigns (like Scales of War and Chaos Scar). There's also the possibility of adding story to existing items.
Mechanically, there's still a lot to work on: Epic tier in particular has a lot of weight going along with it, given the disparity between players and monsters and feat/armor taxes. I'm thinking "masterwork" weapons might also be in order (that perhaps could grant feat type bonuses to attack rolls, that scale per tier, so that it renders Expertise unnecessary as a band-aid to the system math). Tightening the bonus-granting stuff so that you have less bent/broken combos would be another good measure.
And that's just with patching/updating the system. Honor system, strongholds, henchmen, companions, and maybe army-vs-army combat (that isn't necessarily skill checks only), or even optional PvP [they already have that potential with two Dragon articles*, and we already have group arena challenges, so nothing wrong with giving those sort of options, so long as they stay optional and not core, right?].
Long story short: There's still so much you can add in terms of mechanics, and moreso in terms of story/fluff, that even if 5E was in the works, WotC could certainly publish 4E material well into 2020 before they release 5E... although frankly I do hope that if they DO release 5E on or before 2020, they actually improve upon the current, as well as previous, editions, and not make 5E the WotC version of Pathfinder, or something to that degree (meaning they really ought to make 5E, 5E... rather than 3.75 or 3.8).
[ Also, it's bad enough that the Essentials direction is nicknamed "4.5", so hopefully they don't give players a reason to nickname 5E "4.2". ]
* Surely You Joust! and Step Into The Ring
The version is the arena, the game is with the dm/players.
Would we like to see `this' and `that', and 'wouldn't it be great if..?" Sure.
Do I think they have exhaused the possibilities? No.. as gamers/DM's. WE produce that.
DO I think they have put out too much? No. Keep in my WotC is a company. A company exist to make money. By logic alone, they will do what they deem will lead them to more profit. If that be 5e, that is their call.
But the game?.. 4e (or any version)?.. inexhaustible.
Thought they would have learned from previous editions, but get ready for the Complete Gnome Cobblers Handbook.
I gave Pathfinder a thorough look (hours spent researching all things PF online) simply because I keep hearing about the high quality adventures offered by Paizo. I'd love to see that sort of thing from WotC.
I feel DDI has been very weak for a very long time. I'd love to see it beefed up with this type of content.
I would like to see them put out some adventure materials. More on the crunchy side, I would like see them add some support for the existing classes that need it. It's disappointing to think that they are done with the pre-essentials classes all together.
What's the deal with all of the 5E speculation lately? It's not just on these forums that I have seen this either.
What's the deal with all of the 5E speculation lately? It's not just on these forums that I have seen this either.
Everyone likes to think they have inside information when they don't. The probably less than 100 people in the world who do aren't talking, nor should they.
Just wait until Pathfinder 2e arrives. That'll put the cat amongst the birds. For a whole variety of reasons, heads are gonna explode. In a good way.
Just wait until Pathfinder 2e arrives. That'll put the cat amongst the birds. For a whole variety of reasons, heads are gonna explode. In a good way.
Pathfinder 2 will be coming out a few months after D&D 5E comes out, to scoop all the people that are throughly offended that 4E isn't going to be supported anymore... and they'll do 4e "right!"
Just wait until Pathfinder 2e arrives. That'll put the cat amongst the birds. For a whole variety of reasons, heads are gonna explode. In a good way.
Pathfinder 2 will be coming out a few months after D&D 5E comes out, to scoop all the people that are throughly offended that 4E isn't going to be supported anymore... and they'll do 4e "right!"
The biggest news I heard is that yes, it will be similar to 4e in many respects. One great idea they had was to keep the concept of power sources but eliminate the Martial power source to make magic special again. Also, PCs won't have "powers" as such anymore but they're going to expand the spell selection list for caster classes greatly. Another thing I read was that they want to give the "martial" characters more maneuvers they can perform, but with bigger penalties to keep them from getting more powerful than an equal level spellcaster. I think these are all great ideas that will restore what used to be the beating heart of D&D and finally unite the fanbase under the banner of a company that actually cares enough about their customers to voluntarily give away their product for free.
What they could do a lot of that would be nice is more high quality adventures. Even old edition remakes. Make them two tiered.
I.e. make an old Ravenloft module the base difficulty would be in the normal format, for optimized power gamers have a shaded box with additional encounter elements.
We didn't see the really good stuff in 3.5 (Eberron, Incarnum, Tome of Magic, Tome of Battle, the Factotum) until they had exhausted every other option.
And as other people have said repeatedly, there's an almost inexhaustible set of possibilities for more adventures, higher level adventures, etc. Even assuming WotC decides that the system is mostly tapped out in terms of new types of crunch after Heroes of the Elemental Chaos they'll have plenty of stuff they can do. I can easily see 4e supporting another 5 solid years of products without any problem.
Beyond that is there REALLY a super compelling reason for a mechanical rehash of the system that isn't compatible enough with 4e to remain part of 4e? Sure, it might be labeled '4.5' or something by the peanut gallery, but who cares? They could release a whole new set of core books in a couple years with slightly different power progressions, a somewhat different take on feats, etc. As long as it uses basically the same core rules it will remain compatible with existing material or stand on its own. They already pretty much demonstrated this capability with Essentials. Even if it DID change things enough that you didn't want to mix player-side material from existing 4e sources with it there's no reason it would be more different from 4e than Essentials is from 4e, 3.5 was from 3e, or 2e was different from 1e (not to even mention the whole alternate track of versions of OD&D -> Basic and its successor rewrites). In all 4 of those cases the game was close enough to the same that you didn't really need to throw anything out and you could easily carry existing characters forward with as few or as many changes as you wanted.
Honestly, while you could imagine a fairly 4e incompatible 5e that reimagined the basic 4e concepts, there's not a really overwhelmingly compelling reason for it. I'm not even really convinced that from a game system standpoint version rolls really ever did a vast amount for sales. Books get dated and go out of print, so even if you just print up a new book that makes a few modest incremental updates most of the core audience is going to eventually buy that book, and people coming into the game over time will need books anyway. It is all just a matter of timing and being market-savvy enough to make sure whatever changes does so in the direction the market is going in.
I agree with the posters that 4e is far from tapped out when it comes to adventures, campaign settings and fluff. The problem lies in the fact that historically these aspects of the game don't sell a lot of product. Products oriented towards players always sell more than those for DM's, and by a significant amount. TSR (and 2e) died when all that was left to do was material for DM's. WotC learned that lesson and pulled the plug on 3e when it obvious they had maxed out player content. I suspect that 4e is soon reaching the point where new player content is incremental as opposed to ground breaking. A lot of players don't want to pay for incremental increases. This is why I think 4e has peaked and is entering its decent phase. WotC is obviously doing the basic design work on 5e (ahem... Monte Cook) so I'm guessing they feel the same way.
However, compared to previous editions, 4e does have the advantage of DDI. The combination of online CB, compendium and VT means that WotC has the basis for a system where players as well as DM's will continue to pay to support 4e even if there isn't a lot of new material for players. This assumes of course that the VT becomes something people are willing to use and the CB matures enough to keep people happy. If people are willing to pay to play, WotC will probably continue to keep 4e DDI alive and it might be possible that WotC continues to support 4e even after 5e is released.
Is it too much to ask these days for proper design and testing before releasing a product?
I would love to see them turn their focus to adventures and additional support for the released Campaign Settings... I feel DDI has been very weak for a very long time. I'd love to see it beefed up with this type of content.
This ^. One thousand times this.
I think WotC have released too much content in the 3-4 years that 4e has been out and exhausted it too early. I think all that is left to release now are adventures, backgrounds and scenarios, which are nice but perhaps feel a bit lacking.
Adventure and setting materials are actually very nice to have - for the DM - there just aren't as many DMs as players. I agree that WotC overextended itself or oversold it's audience or whatever the marketing speak for just putting out too much to fast may be. 4e started out as a very good, balanced, system that could be played 1-30. If WotC had concentrated on settings, adventures, monsters and other DM materials for the first year or two, particularly giving strong support for paragon, then epic, so that campaigns could actually go the full level range with original core classes, I think the ed could have had greater longevity.
As it stands, the glut of player options has both exhausted the workable design space (leaving only imbalanced, lower-quality options to be developed), and reduced the apeal of the game to casual players and beginners (while still not making it complex and system-mastery-rewarding enough to tempt back those who rejected it initially).
It's too bad that such a marked improvement in a classic game is being overshadowed by the mis-handling of the property.
:shrug:
There are lots of other games...
WOTC hasn't come close to exhausting 4ed yet. Id love to see more Epic level stuff, more expanded Race books, similair to the ones we got last year e.g Tiefling and Dragonborn but with perhaps more races in them and hard backed. They could release many and all of the old settings (please be Spelljammer). Lets consider the fact they have almost 40 years worth of stuff to mine for ideas - i say belay those thoughts of 5e and give us more 4e !
The issue is that all this stuff that you mention has not been released yet because these are traditionally the poor sellers compared to Core and Splatbooks. Since WotC has run out of top sellers to release they can either be content with making due with the poorer sellers (race books, environment books, settings, adventures), find a way to re-start the Core-Splat-Circle with a .5/essentials "updgrade" or release a new edition.
WOTC hasn't come close to exhausting 4ed yet. Id love to see more Epic level stuff, more expanded Race books, similair to the ones we got last year e.g Tiefling and Dragonborn but with perhaps more races in them and hard backed. They could release many and all of the old settings (please be Spelljammer). Lets consider the fact they have almost 40 years worth of stuff to mine for ideas - i say belay those thoughts of 5e and give us more 4e !
The issue is that all this stuff that you mention has not been released yet because these are traditionally the poor sellers compared to Core and Splatbooks. Since WotC has run out of top sellers to release they can either be content with making due with the poorer sellers (race books, environment books, settings, adventures), find a way to re-start the Core-Splat-Circle with a .5/essentials "updgrade" or release a new edition.
There's a huge difference, DDI. There are at least 62,000 DDI subscribers right now, which at $7 a month on the average is what, $420k a month? That's equivalent to selling 15,000 books a month, month in and month out. Of course both DDI and books cost money to put out there, but I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that maintaining a physical distribution channel, plus all the physical production costs of books, is outweighed by the costs to maintain DDI and publish content there. So it may well be that you'd have to sell 20k+ physical books a month to match DDI. While I don't know squat about overall 4e books sales numbers I'm kinda thinking that DDI is a pretty honking big factor in the equation at this point. I'd also note that 62k DDI subscribers is a lower bound, that's how many have Community accounts, there could be 1000's or 10's of thousands more that never bothered to visit the boards and sign up. It is quite conceivable that DDI is now the main source of revenue generated by D&D.
Notice too, that DDI is far less subject to the 'decay effect' and the 'DM material doesn't sell effect' than books are. Anyone that wants access to the CB/Compendium/MB needs to keep subscribing. The VTT will soon join that equation too, as may other applications. The draw of DDI can only grow with time, and once an application is finished and works it is just there, generating cashflow. Particularly if crunch additions to the game are very limited the amount of maintenance required is small and they can always trim back development if and when things are tight, the money comes in anyway, at least in the near-term, so you can increase profitability. Then of course you've got the 2 magazines. Obviously they need monthly content, but since you don't have to worry about how much any given adventure sells you can just keep pumping them out on Dungeon until doomsday. Printed adventures OTOH really only sell when someone needs a new adventure. Likewise Dragon can continue to put out advise, news, general articles, minor tweaks and additions to crunch, support for other products related to D&D like the board games and '4e system' games like GW if they really run low on pure 4e content.
What does all this point to? Well, for one thing there's not a real pressing need to update 4e in this model. In fact updates to 4e rules become sort of a disadvantage at a certain point because they drive cost, you need an R&D team to write it, programmers to put it into CB etc. You're actually better off NOT putting out new rules past a certain point. People will, at least theoretically, keep subscribing as long as the game has players. Clearly there's a point at which the game would fade into obscurity, but how long will that take? Is it even guaranteed? What if they just put out an evergreen set of 4e player-side books (maybe they're '4.5', whatever). From that point on new players can pick those up, or buy electronic versions, subscribe to DDI, etc. DM-side books might not even ever have hardcopy, or just have POD. Realistically some day the material would get rewrites, but I'm not convinced the underlying rules would really have to change or that there would be a vast impetus to do that anymore. As I pointed out somewhere recently, Traveller hasn't changed in 30 years, rules-wise. You don't really have to keep churning out new rules, you just have to keep people playing and sell them SOMETHING. Traveller doesn't have a "DDI", but if it did it would probably make a small but steady income for another 30 years.
... Notice too, that DDI is far less subject to the 'decay effect' and the 'DM material doesn't sell effect' than books are. ...
... What does all this point to? Well, for one thing there's not a real pressing need to update 4e in this model. ...
This is all well and good, but how does WotC direct new players to their product? If they go with the all electronic model they shun some of the old-school players or people who would rather have books (maybe an acceptable loss - as the electronic format they are going with now has to be more cost effective). The WotC crews seems to think that PDF materials spell doomsday for the company. New gamers aren't able to walk into thier FLGS see a game going on and get interested enough to buy materials.
I agree with most of your analysis regarding the ease to update and maintain content for players with a DDI subscription. Where you lose me is how this fits in with WotC's goals on customer retention, little lone growth of the customer base.
The issue is that all this stuff that you mention has not been released yet because these are traditionally the poor sellers compared to Core and Splatbooks. Since WotC has run out of top sellers to release they can either be content with making due with the poorer sellers (race books, environment books, settings, adventures), find a way to re-start the Core-Splat-Circle with a .5/essentials "updgrade" or release a new edition.
It might be poor selling material, but I think there is a payback in the number of players that find there way to the product. This game's success rides on the backs of the DMs out there. 4E has taken some great strides towards that end, in making it easier to be a DM. Adventures are the stuff that any group of friends can go and pickup and start playing the game. If they are well made adventures, chances are the group will carry on with DnD - and consequentially buying more product. Sure only 1 person bought the Keep on the Shadowfell book, but 5 players had fun playing DnD because of it and will continue to buy WotC stuff.
The Encounters program is one way WotC is using adventure materials (and volunteer DMs) to lure more players in (buy stuff from participating FLGS that run Encounters). However, a lot of people are more comfortable to play with a group of friends at someone's house, on a schedule that works for all of them - Encounters doesn't cater to this demographic.
... Notice too, that DDI is far less subject to the 'decay effect' and the 'DM material doesn't sell effect' than books are. ...
... What does all this point to? Well, for one thing there's not a real pressing need to update 4e in this model. ...
This is all well and good, but how does WotC direct new players to their product? If they go with the all electronic model they shun some of the old-school players or people who would rather have books (maybe an acceptable loss - as the electronic format they are going with now has to be more cost effective). The WotC crews seems to think that PDF materials spell doomsday for the company. New gamers aren't able to walk into thier FLGS see a game going on and get interested enough to buy materials.
I agree with most of your analysis regarding the ease to update and maintain content for players with a DDI subscription. Where you lose me is how this fits in with WotC's goals on customer retention, little lone growth of the customer base.
Well, to continue in this vein. You shift your physical product strategy. Instead of pumping out endless player splat books supplements, which puts you on the edition roll train forever, with all the expense involved in revamping the digital (profit center) side of the equation and all the community angst and customer defections involved in that, you put out 'gateway' products. These would be for instance board games that are closely based on simplified 4e mechanics, and tied into the D&D intellectual property. You can also sell physical 'game aid' products like cards, dice, tiles, gm screens, miniatures, a TT skirmish game, etc. You then run a bunch of in-store events and contests, etc to draw people into the stores to buy those products. You also still have the physical evergreen books, which aren't going to sell like hotcakes forever, but are pretty inexpensive, fairly compact, and low enough priced that they are a reasonable entree to the game.
In other words you follow the exact business strategy that WotC is following right now. Clearly this is what they ARE doing. Now, again, lets consider the implications of this in terms of version rolling the game. You can certainly make some updates to this product line over time, and not all these products are so tightly coupled to any specific set of rules that you can't make changes to the game system without invalidating them, BUT you probably don't want to have to update and reissue all of this stuff for a whole new significantly different edition. You can of course, and probably will anyway, keep putting out new material along these lines, but it doesn't seem like a strategy that forces you to do version rolls very often nor encourages it particularly. You'd also probably continue to branch the game out into new markets with video games, an MMO perhaps, and other non-game products like movies and cartoons and whatnot. Again all things WotC is clearly moving forward on, albeit slowly in some cases. Another dimension would of course be other RPGs based on the 4e system, like Gamma World, which can broaden the appeal of the system, and could be tie-ins with 3rd party IP as well. A robust book line would clearly be another aspect.
Really, I didn't invent any of this. I'm just analyzing what WotC IS doing right now as we speak. The larger the 'D&D family of products' is, the less likely it is that they'll want to make frequent major changes to the core product. It certainly isn't precluded, and you could argue that maybe they've decided 4e as it is now isn't the 'eternal D&D' they wanted after all, and they're going to try to rush out some '5e' to fix that ASAP. It isn't IMPOSSIBLE, but it seems unlikely, especially considering the lack of any sign of a big ramp up in the resources available to the D&D product group.
4E is hardly tapped out but it did require a radical change in direction because the designers/developers pushed too much player content out the door too quickly, both in terms of books and the D&DI.
1. I expect the "core game" to be free to play. Humans, Dwarves, Elves, and Halflings, Fighters, Wizards, Rogues, and Clerics will all be free to download from levels 1-10 with WotC's proprietary content viewing and character building software. (online only)
2. The only physical book published at launch would include these core classes/races. but would be geared toward DMs (it would have all the rules to play the core game levels 1-10, plus a variety of basic heroic-tier enemies) Months later the paragon and epic tier versions would be released. Each will cost about $30.
2. More a-la-carte purchases, aka, microtransactions. New Races are $0.99 each. levels 1-10, 11-20, and 21-30 of a class are $1.99 each ("paragon paths" and "epic destinies" will be built into these) Packs of similarly themed feats or skills or powers (or whatever) might be $0.99 a piece. All these would be available indefinitely on aforementioned viewer/builder program once you purchased them. There would be some kind of go-between currency akin to the "points" you use for buying stuff on your X-Box.
3. DMs would supplement their monsters and adventures via a similar system, probably $0.99 for a half-dozen similarly themed enemies, $1.99 for a 3-encounter "delve", 3.99 for a 10 encounter "adventure", and $9.99 for a 30 encounter "campaign."
4. At the end of each year (6 months?), a book is published with the best (most popular) bits of content released during that period, probably with a standard $30 price tag. These will include all the accumulated errata, since they'll be "playtested" for months beforehand by those who bought them a-la-carte.
In other words you follow the exact business strategy that WotC is following right now.
Really, I didn't invent any of this. I'm just analyzing what WotC IS doing right now as we speak.
I agree completely. WotC is clearly shifting their sales model away from physical print products and towards a total digital delivery for new material. I believe the whole purpose behind the Essentials books was to act as that evergreen entry point that will fly the flag at gaming and comic stores. In fact, Essentials was marketed as exactly that... "An on-ramp for D&D" they kept calling it. Lots of posters on these forums saw Essentials as 4.5 but from a business standpoint it's more of a 3.9.
For myself, the proof for this fundamental change in business model was the game store only release for MME. WotC is testing the market for small print run DM books designed to hook gamers who go to stores.
Here's something to think about... I'd bet a lot of money that in the upcoming year more new game elements will be released via Dragon/Dungeon than by all the new books combined. Anyone care to take that bet? D&D has already become a digitally based game.
It certainly isn't precluded, and you could argue that maybe they've decided 4e as it is now isn't the 'eternal D&D' they wanted after all, and they're going to try to rush out some '5e' to fix that ASAP. It isn't IMPOSSIBLE, but it seems unlikely, especially considering the lack of any sign of a big ramp up in the resources available to the D&D product group.
This is where I disagree. The ramp up of resources is there but you can only see it if you realize that production has dropped off considerably but yet the core R&D staff is still employed. I've noticed over the last year a steady decline in the number of publications by the big guns of D&D at WotC. Mike Mearls, Jeremy Crawford, James Wyatt, Bruce Cordell and Chris Perkins have been almost absent authors but are still working for WotC. What are they doing? You can bet they're just as busy as ever before (Hasbro doesn't retain people who don't work) so what are they working on? Meanwhile, Bill Slavicsek leaves and Monte Cook arrives. Something big is clearly being worked on and they're keeping it under wraps. If it's not a new edition, then there's a lot of people working on something incredible for 4e. Given that many people consider 4e to be "exhausted" I can't imagine what that might be.
I'm certain 5e is on its way, but it'll take a while to get here. Until then, 4e will be best served through digital offerings via DDI coupled with entry level evergreen print products.
Honestly I don't know exactly how many people were there and what exactly all of them did before, and I can't say exactly how much work each thing they've put out is and thus how many man hours went into each product and thus if there are any 'missing hours' that would need to be accounted for, but again I don't perceive any kind of huge secret project.
If they are working on 5e it is at a very low level, which of course is entirely possible. Nobody will ever be able to tell one way or another at this stage. I just don't see where there's a huge payoff for making 5e that makes it a compelling story. It will just royally piss off the 4e people, or at best annoy everyone with a too-soon version roll, require totally retooling DDI, another big expense, and its chance of magically capturing the interest of the OSR/PF crowds (whatever quantity of them don't already purchase at least some WotC products) is really immeasurably close to zip IMHO.
As other people have said, 4e has plenty of life left in it, the business strategy they're pursuing now clearly doesn't REQUIRE vast amounts of new player side crunch every month, so what would be the payoff? It isn't cheap to launch an edition.
In all honesty, none of you know what Wizards plans are and how far along, if it even is, 5th edition is. It's actually possible that 5th edition is almost complete but nobody really knows.
You can type out a 9 paragraph post about why you think 4th edition has so much left and that 5th edition is either not here or in it's infancy but again none of you know.
Wizards has to be really careful how much stuff it puts out because all we would have is just a bunch of bloat that people don't want. Also the more bloat mechanics you put out the greater the chances are that you have errors.
The mind-blade (or whatever it was called in 3.x) Psionic rogue that creates its own weapons - a class I've been looking forward to.
Expansion of the vampire and blackguard, and just paladins in general.
Feats for new races.
New races / revisiting existing less supported races.
just off the top of my head.
There is still room in the design space for new classes / expansions of current class / revisions to "essentialize" classes.
The mind-blade (or whatever it was called in 3.x) Psionic rogue that creates its own weapons - a class I've been looking forward to.
Expansion of the vampire and blackguard, and just paladins in general.
Feats for new races.
New races / revisiting existing less supported races.
just off the top of my head.
I think you are talking about the Soul Knife. They aren't going to make 4th edition versions of all the classes from 3rd edition.
We have plenty of races, we have plenty of feats and I believe the above classes you named are pretty much done. When you start to add and add and add you just end of with a lot of bloat.
How many relevant classes do they have left in them? By relevant, I don't mean sub-classes, half-classes, add-ons for classes....I mean new classes that are able to stand on their own that aren't just a series of copy/pastes from existing classes with a few keywords changed.
I guess that would depend on what they want to tap into for inspiration. It would seem that oriental-style classes are just getting themes and maybe sub-classes. What other directions are there that make sense for D&D?
Races I'm not too worried about. There are eleventy million possibilities with races, and only a handful have been utilized. They've got tons of breathing room with races.
Campaign settings I could not care less about. If they do updates to Spelljammer, Plane Scape, DragonLance, or Mystara, then cool. I'll probably buy it, whatever it is. If they don't, then that's cool, too. I've got every campaign setting going back to 1E to use. I can do the minor conversions necessary to make them 4E-friendly. Since those traditionally don't sell too well (according to other posters on the forums...I don't know the sales figures, personally), it wouldn't surprise me if we didn't see any more full-blown settings. More likely, we'll see more DDI campaign setting material like the Kara-Tur stuff.
A new setting, however, might galvanize sales. Much like Eberron was something new and fresh for the 3.X years, a new setting for 4E would be nice. Unlike all of the established campaign settings that have been around for years (some for decades), a new setting would be something to really look forward to. You'd have to buy it to find out what it was all about. If they release 4E Spelljammer, I could likely predict just what changes would be made, and what it would take to blend it into 4E. I might not buy a 4E Spelljammer for that reason. A new setting, though...I would have no idea what it was about. Curiosity would eat me alive.
Bull.
We didn't see the really good stuff in 3.5 (Eberron, Incarnum, Tome of Magic, Tome of Battle, the Factotum) until they had exhausted every other option.
And that's the irony.
When the edition begins, the first supplements are what we want. As the edition goes, the designers start making the things the edition really needs. The designers know that the system isn't perfect, but they try out solutions in the current edition that can be used in the next one. The Warlock, along with Tome of Battle, Complete Mage, and Complete Scoundrel, really pushed 4ed design into what we have know.
As someone who came into 3ed roughly at the same time WotC was starting on 4ed, I don't have a problem with that. I say try many different approaches to representing the Fighter, Thief, Cleric, and Wizard. I'll buy which ones I want, and you can decide which ones are the best.
They aren't going to make 4th edition versions of all the classes from 3rd edition.
I'd like to know how you know about this
Just wait until Pathfinder 2e arrives. That'll put the cat amongst the birds. For a whole variety of reasons, heads are gonna explode. In a good way.
Pathfinder 2 will be coming out a few months after D&D 5E comes out, to scoop all the people that are throughly offended that 4E isn't going to be supported anymore... and they'll do 4e "right!"
The biggest news I heard is that yes, it will be similar to 4e in many respects. One great idea they had was to keep the concept of power sources but eliminate the Martial power source to make magic special again. Also, PCs won't have "powers" as such anymore but they're going to expand the spell selection list for caster classes greatly. Another thing I read was that they want to give the "martial" characters more maneuvers they can perform, but with bigger penalties to keep them from getting more powerful than an equal level spellcaster. I think these are all great ideas that will restore what used to be the beating heart of D&D and finally unite the fanbase under the banner of a company that actually cares enough about their customers to voluntarily give away their product for free.
Normally I wouldn't do a stacked qoute like this...
But honestly, I was just joking. If that's true, the pathfinder guys are even bigger vultures than I thought.
Yeah, I think they blew their wad a bit.
Thought they would have learned from previous editions, but get ready for the Complete Gnome Cobblers Handbook.
I would buy that.
Pathfinder 2 will be coming out a few months after D&D 5E comes out, to scoop all the people that are throughly offended that 4E isn't going to be supported anymore... and they'll do 4e "right!"
The biggest news I heard is that yes, it will be similar to 4e in many respects. One great idea they had was to keep the concept of power sources but eliminate the Martial power source to make magic special again. Also, PCs won't have "powers" as such anymore but they're going to expand the spell selection list for caster classes greatly. Another thing I read was that they want to give the "martial" characters more maneuvers they can perform, but with bigger penalties to keep them from getting more powerful than an equal level spellcaster. I think these are all great ideas that will restore what used to be the beating heart of D&D and finally unite the fanbase under the banner of a company that actually cares enough about their customers to voluntarily give away their product for free.
Lol
Pathfinder 2 will be coming out a few months after D&D 5E comes out, to scoop all the people that are throughly offended that 4E isn't going to be supported anymore... and they'll do 4e "right!"
The biggest news I heard is that yes, it will be similar to 4e in many respects. One great idea they had was to keep the concept of power sources but eliminate the Martial power source to make magic special again. Also, PCs won't have "powers" as such anymore but they're going to expand the spell selection list for caster classes greatly. Another thing I read was that they want to give the "martial" characters more maneuvers they can perform, but with bigger penalties to keep them from getting more powerful than an equal level spellcaster. I think these are all great ideas that will restore what used to be the beating heart of D&D and finally unite the fanbase under the banner of a company that actually cares enough about their customers to voluntarily give away their product for free.
Lol
You do realize that this was what Pathfinder did and it was a complete success. Also it hasn't stopped the fans from buying the books and other material.
If you do it out of the blue, I'm not sure if you'd get the same kind of reception. There's quite a history going into this one.
Pathfinder 2 will be coming out a few months after D&D 5E comes out, to scoop all the people that are throughly offended that 4E isn't going to be supported anymore... and they'll do 4e "right!"
The biggest news I heard is that yes, it will be similar to 4e in many respects. One great idea they had was to keep the concept of power sources but eliminate the Martial power source to make magic special again. Also, PCs won't have "powers" as such anymore but they're going to expand the spell selection list for caster classes greatly. Another thing I read was that they want to give the "martial" characters more maneuvers they can perform, but with bigger penalties to keep them from getting more powerful than an equal level spellcaster. I think these are all great ideas that will restore what used to be the beating heart of D&D and finally unite the fanbase under the banner of a company that actually cares enough about their customers to voluntarily give away their product for free.
Lol
You do realize that this was what Pathfinder did and it was a complete success. Also it hasn't stopped the fans from buying the books and other material.
Yes, they are noble self-sacrificing zen monks who can live on air and fairy dust. Their highest ideal is free RPGs for all!
They are giving away the same thing that WotC was already giving away Xun. They LEGALLY CANNOT sell it and not also give it away. Do they give away the stuff that isn't OGL encumbered? No. Of course not. They have to eat just like the rest of us.
And read the thread before you post Xun, plenty of people have described the types of things that are still left to do in 4e, some of them in substantial detail.
Just looking at crunch that is still NEEDED and wouldn't require a lot of material vs its utility:
Improved Seeker support. Improved Runepriest support. Fix/enhancement for the Ruthless Ruffian build. Fix for the Swarm Druid build. Completion of the Sentinel Druid's seasons. More Vampire powers and options. Completion of support for certain undersupported races. Race writeups for Kenku and certain other interesting but not yet supported races. More rituals. More martial practices. Errata for some issues like charge build madness. More themes.
There is simply no shortage of potential new material which could exist. There can always be new monsters, etc. It has already all been listed above if you care to read.
That said, though, I'm confident that 4e has some legs yet. Things I'd expect to come out over the next couple of years:
Expansions to existing but under-developed classes to bring them up to par with those classes that already have a lot of features, builds and feats.
More monster vaults - there's always room for more monsters, and there's a few critters from previous editions that haven't seen much love. Especially if they were much more fluff/ ecology of- style resources.
More item books - there's always more room for magical and mundane items, artifacts etc. Especially books with prices, crafting, economy, trade details for mundane items: castles, strongholds, ships, intoxicants and poisons, animals and mounts etc.
Monster-Vault style books that focus on traps and hazards rather than critters. Sort of a 4e Grimtooth's, but better.
Epic resources: DMG3, and MV:Epic.
More card-based & prop-style extras: Fortune cards, Deck of many things, Despair card expansion, Feywild Fey cards, Far realm Madness cards etc.
Detailed rules/monsters for aquatic, areial and large scale military campaigns.
Power/planar source materials for: Feywild, Far Realm, minor planes like Mirrors/Dreams.
Campaign settings, or sub-campaign settings, especially ones that explored fantasy sterotypes outside the typical Westen/European psuedo-medieval environment: Ravenloft, Kara-Tur, Maztica, Pirate-themed, Gun-powder themed etc.
All new and original campaign settings.
Campaign frames fluff/guidance/DMG books: 4e Heroes of Horror etc. Perhaps a PoL campaign book expanding the default world.
Adventures and published adventure paths - there's potentially an unlimited number of these.
More backdrop/race/ splat books: they didn't do well, but things like Tieflings/Hammerfast could be resurrected.
Books for players that explore new/alternative power sources: elemental? ki? technological? fey?
Unearthed Arcana style toolbox appraoch texts with various optional rules, from expanding ideas associated with magic-less worlds to over-hauling skills, non-magical healing, daily powers etc.
Re-try the Dragon/Dungeon annuals.
And perhaps even something original and unexpected ...
I'm pretty sure most of the reason Pathfinder did it was because lots of people already played the same game for years and new all the rules before they launched their version.
If you do it out of the blue, I'm not sure if you'd get the same kind of reception. There's quite a history going into this one.
Transhuman Studios was able to give away their game for free which in turn lead to sales of their product with their game Eclipse Phase (EP). They seeded the core rulebook files themselves onto the torrents, which did lead people to buy the core book and their later products, and not just sales, but overall profitability.
It took a few things to make it happen: EP is a very polished and fresh product created by industry veterans who formed a private company that thoroghly believed that letting their game out their for free would be the best way for people to get into the unknown game.
I would think that the D&D brand is too strong and valuable to just give away. Plus, Hasbro wouldn't let them do it. So, I guess I'm saying that giving away something for free can lead to making money, but I don't think WotC should or could even do it.
Pathfinder 2 will be coming out a few months after D&D 5E comes out, to scoop all the people that are throughly offended that 4E isn't going to be supported anymore... and they'll do 4e "right!"
The biggest news I heard is that yes, it will be similar to 4e in many respects. One great idea they had was to keep the concept of power sources but eliminate the Martial power source to make magic special again. Also, PCs won't have "powers" as such anymore but they're going to expand the spell selection list for caster classes greatly. Another thing I read was that they want to give the "martial" characters more maneuvers they can perform, but with bigger penalties to keep them from getting more powerful than an equal level spellcaster. I think these are all great ideas that will restore what used to be the beating heart of D&D and finally unite the fanbase under the banner of a company that actually cares enough about their customers to voluntarily give away their product for free.
Lol
You do realize that this was what Pathfinder did and it was a complete success. Also it hasn't stopped the fans from buying the books and other material.
Yes, they are noble self-sacrificing zen monks who can live on air and fairy dust. Their highest ideal is free RPGs for all!
They are giving away the same thing that WotC was already giving away Xun. They LEGALLY CANNOT sell it and not also give it away. Do they give away the stuff that isn't OGL encumbered? No. Of course not. They have to eat just like the rest of us.
And read the thread before you post Xun, plenty of people have described the types of things that are still left to do in 4e, some of them in substantial detail.
Just looking at crunch that is still NEEDED and wouldn't require a lot of material vs its utility:
Improved Seeker support. Improved Runepriest support. Fix/enhancement for the Ruthless Ruffian build. Fix for the Swarm Druid build. Completion of the Sentinel Druid's seasons. More Vampire powers and options. Completion of support for certain undersupported races. Race writeups for Kenku and certain other interesting but not yet supported races. More rituals. More martial practices. Errata for some issues like charge build madness. More themes.
There is simply no shortage of potential new material which could exist. There can always be new monsters, etc. It has already all been listed above if you care to read.
I never said Paizo had to give everything away for free and the fact of the matter is it worked for them very very nicely.
I have read the thread and everything that was described is something that every other edition of D&D could have done before it ended. More crunch and more bloat is something that any edition could add so we could say that there is plenty of life left in every other edition of D&D.
If you want more bloat then that's fine for you but it's not really a good argument to use when saying 4th edition isn't close to being tapped out.
I just think they missed the part where the trick to making money for giving it away for free is that you have to present a good product :P
(Or they missed where Facebook games make barely any money at all compared to the ridiculous number of players you need to support and the insane amount of marketing you have to do)
In all honesty, none of you know what Wizards plans are and how far along, if it even is, 5th edition is.
Some people do have beholder icons and are playtesting things. Some people are DDI authors and see a bit into what is coming. Only glimpses are gained and, of course, we can't talk about it. You can only read our blogs and posts and see whether we are selling our 4E stuff or seem really excited and happy with 4E. I would place the vast majority of people I know that see a bit into the game's future in the later camp - seriously excited and happy with 4E. While we love to wonder about 5E (there has to be one someday), we tend to really like the game we have right now.
All that aside, and not at all based on anything I know that I can't share, I felt back at the end of 2011 that the game felt a little stale. The Martial Power 2 type of book seemed to forecast a running out of ideas and a bad way to market product. The announcement of a few lines I wasn't personally excited about (such as Shadowfell because I'm not big on horror/undead campaigns) led me to additionally wonder if things were a bit stale. But, then I've had time to play with Essentials, play with Shadowfell (and the cool Despair Deck), and even more recently play and read the MV:Nentir Vale, Mordenkainen's, Neverwinter Campaign Setting, Gardmore Abbey, and the like. Each and every one of those could have been tired. The fifth monster book. The third magic item book. Another setting book. Another adventure. Instead, these products are amongst the most innovative work Wizards has done... dare I say ever? And it comes now, this far in 4E's life? And then I look at DDI's Kara-Tur month, and I hear more of these themed months will come? I'm really impressed. Any worry I had of "staleness" has faded completely. I'm really excited about what will come.
And, in my own games I see the same excitement. I'm beyond excited about what our authors will bring to organized play innovation with Chapter 4 of Ashes of Athas. I'm really eager to write some upcoming DDI articles. I'm dying to have the time to blog about new stuff I've tried in my home campaign. I love reading all the new cool ideas people blog about. While 4E is of course not perfect, I just don't see anything stale right now at all. Further, I see changes within Wizards that suggest they are working hard to make sure they are plugged in to what we want and to internally continue to create new concepts. It isn't random chance that Gardmore Abbey has a sandbox feel and responds to PC choice - the team was excited to do that... last year! It isn't strange that Neverwinter fed off of themes and developed a really tight adventure setting. Those were deliberate design goals last year or early this year. (All this I gather from the chat sessions we've been afforded with designers and developers). What have they been cooking this year that we have yet to see due to the production schedule?
Yeah, I think they blew their wad a bit.
Thought they would have learned from previous editions, but get ready for the Complete Gnome Cobblers Handbook.
I would buy that.
Hey, I'm a Gnome fan too - bring out Svirfneblin!
But yeah, the writing is so on the wall...
In all honesty, none of you know what Wizards plans are and how far along, if it even is, 5th edition is.
Some people do have beholder icons and are playtesting things. Some people are DDI authors and see a bit into what is coming. Only glimpses are gained and, of course, we can't talk about it. You can only read our blogs and posts and see whether we are selling our 4E stuff or seem really excited and happy with 4E. I would place the vast majority of people I know that see a bit into the game's future in the later camp - seriously excited and happy with 4E. While we love to wonder about 5E (there has to be one someday), we tend to really like the game we have right now.
All that aside, and not at all based on anything I know that I can't share, I felt back at the end of 2011 that the game felt a little stale. The Martial Power 2 type of book seemed to forecast a running out of ideas and a bad way to market product. The announcement of a few lines I wasn't personally excited about (such as Shadowfell because I'm not big on horror/undead campaigns) led me to additionally wonder if things were a bit stale. But, then I've had time to play with Essentials, play with Shadowfell (and the cool Despair Deck), and even more recently play and read the MV:Nentir Vale, Mordenkainen's, Neverwinter Campaign Setting, Gardmore Abbey, and the like. Each and every one of those could have been tired. The fifth monster book. The third magic item book. Another setting book. Another adventure. Instead, these products are amongst the most innovative work Wizards has done... dare I say ever? And it comes now, this far in 4E's life? And then I look at DDI's Kara-Tur month, and I hear more of these themed months will come? I'm really impressed. Any worry I had of "staleness" has faded completely. I'm really excited about what will come.
And, in my own games I see the same excitement. I'm beyond excited about what our authors will bring to organized play innovation with Chapter 4 of Ashes of Athas. I'm really eager to write some upcoming DDI articles. I'm dying to have the time to blog about new stuff I've tried in my home campaign. I love reading all the new cool ideas people blog about. While 4E is of course not perfect, I just don't see anything stale right now at all. Further, I see changes within Wizards that suggest they are working hard to make sure they are plugged in to what we want and to internally continue to create new concepts. It isn't random chance that Gardmore Abbey has a sandbox feel and responds to PC choice - the team was excited to do that... last year! It isn't strange that Neverwinter fed off of themes and developed a really tight adventure setting. Those were deliberate design goals last year or early this year. (All this I gather from the chat sessions we've been afforded with designers and developers). What have they been cooking this year that we have yet to see due to the production schedule?
This is all fine and great but you are a Playtester. I've been a playtester (Not Wizards) before and the high ups do not share all the information with me nor did I have the same status and benefits as an employee. I was given what they want me to playtest and nothing more.
There is a certain amount of information that nonemployees of Wizards will be given, even if you are a playtester.
To make a long story short, I seriously doubt you are getting the whole scoop because they can release what ever they want to you and the public.
Ya know, in a way they are giving their product away for free with Heroes of Neverwinter.
I just think they missed the part where the trick to making money for giving it away for free is that you have to present a good product :P
Its hard to argue with logic like this.
I'm pretty sure most of the reason Pathfinder did it was because lots of people already played the same game for years and new all the rules before they launched their version.
If you do it out of the blue, I'm not sure if you'd get the same kind of reception. There's quite a history going into this one.
Transhuman Studios was able to give away their game for free which in turn lead to sales of their product with their game Eclipse Phase (EP). They seeded the core rulebook files themselves onto the torrents, which did lead people to buy the core book and their later products, and not just sales, but overall profitability.
It took a few things to make it happen: EP is a very polished and fresh product created by industry veterans who formed a private company that thoroghly believed that letting their game out their for free would be the best way for people to get into the unknown game.
I would think that the D&D brand is too strong and valuable to just give away. Plus, Hasbro wouldn't let them do it. So, I guess I'm saying that giving away something for free can lead to making money, but I don't think WotC should or could even do it.
These are all good thoughts. I am a big fan of what Posthuman has done with Eclipse Phase, but it is also correct that the model works really well for a small publisher rather than an existing one. The rules are very different for a more established RPG company that derives real value from its established intellectual property. Paizo, in turn, was smart to allow for feedback/playtesting as it was a great way to stay connected with fans throughout the product cycle. Also, many of their changes were around breathing life to existing product and fixing its rough points, not the creation of a truly new edition. There are different approaches, different levels of risk, and different opportunities under each of these really different scenarios.
All of these companies have to work hard to deal with a changing market where publishing prices change drastically, consumer preferences change, and the rules of "what works" change each year.
As RPG fans, we should really celebrate all of these efforts. Paizo has done just wonderful setting work. Their new intro boxed set is fantastic. Eclipse Phase has managed to create really good product in a difficult market (non-fantasy RPGs do not generally do well), providing a game with a scope that is enormous and really creative. Wizards has a very large footprint. It is necessary for them to cast a wider net in the effort to bring a much larger market to their game. That means larger risk and periodic failures, as well as experiments to widen the appeal of the game. The success of each of these companies is actually good for the industry as a whole.
To make a long story short, I seriously doubt you are getting the whole scoop because they can release what ever they want to you and the public.
I believe I said so in my post. If I wasn't clear, then I apologize.
My point was that an RPG fan can take a look at the posts by those that get a glimpse and in turn determine if there is excitement for the future. I follow many of the recent DDI authors on Twitter and I note their excitement. I would not expect any of these authors to know when 5E will be released, but I can sense their excitement for the current and near-future game. For an example, Matt James talked on a podcast about how he was writing MV:Nentir Vale many months ago while reading many posts about monsters being too easy. He couldn't share, back then, that WotC had revised the monster math nor how his team was doing really cool things with monsters (including solos). He could only show his excitement in other ways. I note he continues to be excited...
Just a thought.
In all honesty, none of you know what Wizards plans are and how far along, if it even is, 5th edition is.
Some people do have beholder icons and are playtesting things. Some people are DDI authors and see a bit into what is coming. Only glimpses are gained and, of course, we can't talk about it. You can only read our blogs and posts and see whether we are selling our 4E stuff or seem really excited and happy with 4E. I would place the vast majority of people I know that see a bit into the game's future in the later camp - seriously excited and happy with 4E. While we love to wonder about 5E (there has to be one someday), we tend to really like the game we have right now.
All that aside, and not at all based on anything I know that I can't share, I felt back at the end of 2011 that the game felt a little stale. The Martial Power 2 type of book seemed to forecast a running out of ideas and a bad way to market product. The announcement of a few lines I wasn't personally excited about (such as Shadowfell because I'm not big on horror/undead campaigns) led me to additionally wonder if things were a bit stale. But, then I've had time to play with Essentials, play with Shadowfell (and the cool Despair Deck), and even more recently play and read the MV:Nentir Vale, Mordenkainen's, Neverwinter Campaign Setting, Gardmore Abbey, and the like. Each and every one of those could have been tired. The fifth monster book. The third magic item book. Another setting book. Another adventure. Instead, these products are amongst the most innovative work Wizards has done... dare I say ever? And it comes now, this far in 4E's life? And then I look at DDI's Kara-Tur month, and I hear more of these themed months will come? I'm really impressed. Any worry I had of "staleness" has faded completely. I'm really excited about what will come.
And, in my own games I see the same excitement. I'm beyond excited about what our authors will bring to organized play innovation with Chapter 4 of Ashes of Athas. I'm really eager to write some upcoming DDI articles. I'm dying to have the time to blog about new stuff I've tried in my home campaign. I love reading all the new cool ideas people blog about. While 4E is of course not perfect, I just don't see anything stale right now at all. Further, I see changes within Wizards that suggest they are working hard to make sure they are plugged in to what we want and to internally continue to create new concepts. It isn't random chance that Gardmore Abbey has a sandbox feel and responds to PC choice - the team was excited to do that... last year! It isn't strange that Neverwinter fed off of themes and developed a really tight adventure setting. Those were deliberate design goals last year or early this year. (All this I gather from the chat sessions we've been afforded with designers and developers). What have they been cooking this year that we have yet to see due to the production schedule?
This is all fine and great but you are a Playtester. I've been a playtester (Not Wizards) before and the high ups do not share all the information with me nor did I have the same status and benefits as an employee. I was given what they want me to playtest and nothing more.
There is a certain amount of information that nonemployees of Wizards will be given, even if you are a playtester.
To make a long story short, I seriously doubt you are getting the whole scoop because they can release what ever they want to you and the public.
Sure, Xun, but look at it this way... Which of you and Alphastream do you think I should credit with having some insight into what is going on with 4e? He never said he KNOWS anything. What he said is that the people he's worked with at WotC are really excited about 4e (and you should go read the Greg Leeds interview as well, the guy was fairly BUBBLING, and he IS the higher-up you refer to). Admittedly Greg could BS people, but exactly how far down into conspiracy land do we have to go here? The further it is the less credible it is...
Frankly I think WotC brought together a real hard-core team of crunch-heads to build 4e, which is exactly what you want. They went a little rampant, probably initially on the theory that they felt they had to quickly bridge the gap with 8 years of 3.x crunch, and at some point people started to realize that things needed to shift gears, and now we're more into what seems like the 'digital business plan', a slightly reworked and smaller group of more creatively focused developers, and a much greater emphasis on the aspects of the product that are obviously more important now.
TBH I think the whole Monte Cook thing needs no other explanation either. You want a creative guy to add some firepower to your team and get people juiced up, there's probably no other guy you could want more, right? You don't need '5e' coming along (3 years after 4e, right...) to explain anything.
As for "why do you want more bloat, that's all that's left to do", well, no it isn't. I'll also note that IMHO there were underlying reasons for both the 2e->3e and 3.5->4e version transitions. AD&D WAS tapped out, after 20 years on the market it was both tapped out and dated. It was a fun game, but it always did have a lot of inherent limitations, even compared to a lot of systems of its time. It had compensating virtues, but what could be done with 2e had been done with 2e. While I wouldn't say the same thing for 3.5 I would say that it A) is not SO much different from AD&D that it really opened up that much new design space conceptually, and that B) its well-known characteristics really did limit it, in fact in some ways MORE so than AD&D. It was almost kind of a hyper-D&D in that sense. Now, only time will prove out that 4e is more durable, but I am utterly clear on one thing, it is a VASTLY more flexible game than 3.x was.
Sit down a do some world building with 4e Xun, you'll find out. It is really a whole different experience than world building in earlier editions. You can do a heck of a lot more with it in many respects. I don't think it will be tapped out for another 10 years.
Speaking of design space, I remember reading in the Races and Classes preview book, about 30 level races. I think this could be really fleshed out and added to the game. 30 levels of racial features that you pick from as you level up. Who wouldn't want that? Scrap the racial feats, paragon paths and epic destinies tied to race, and make 30 level races. I think it would be super cool.
Just a thought.
It was an interesting idea, and I think it WOULD work for some of the more heavily typecast races. OTOH I don't think it would work well at all for humans, elves, etc as you really need those races to be general purpose and since you expect them to be replayed often they need options. I am unlikely to play 2 Shard Mind characters in my entire 4e experience, but I might easily play a half dozen elves. Also I think if you look at the feats available for the iconic races you'll find there are enough to allow you to make significant useful feat choices for a variety of characters all the way up through epic tier.
I could see moving some of the really core feature enhancing stuff that are feats now to racial features that kick in at 1/11/21 though. Like some of the stuff that is in racial PP/ED stuff now, but not requiring you to take that PP/ED.
In all honesty, none of you know what Wizards plans are and how far along, if it even is, 5th edition is.
Some people do have beholder icons and are playtesting things. Some people are DDI authors and see a bit into what is coming. Only glimpses are gained and, of course, we can't talk about it. You can only read our blogs and posts and see whether we are selling our 4E stuff or seem really excited and happy with 4E. I would place the vast majority of people I know that see a bit into the game's future in the later camp - seriously excited and happy with 4E. While we love to wonder about 5E (there has to be one someday), we tend to really like the game we have right now.
All that aside, and not at all based on anything I know that I can't share, I felt back at the end of 2011 that the game felt a little stale. The Martial Power 2 type of book seemed to forecast a running out of ideas and a bad way to market product. The announcement of a few lines I wasn't personally excited about (such as Shadowfell because I'm not big on horror/undead campaigns) led me to additionally wonder if things were a bit stale. But, then I've had time to play with Essentials, play with Shadowfell (and the cool Despair Deck), and even more recently play and read the MV:Nentir Vale, Mordenkainen's, Neverwinter Campaign Setting, Gardmore Abbey, and the like. Each and every one of those could have been tired. The fifth monster book. The third magic item book. Another setting book. Another adventure. Instead, these products are amongst the most innovative work Wizards has done... dare I say ever? And it comes now, this far in 4E's life? And then I look at DDI's Kara-Tur month, and I hear more of these themed months will come? I'm really impressed. Any worry I had of "staleness" has faded completely. I'm really excited about what will come.
And, in my own games I see the same excitement. I'm beyond excited about what our authors will bring to organized play innovation with Chapter 4 of Ashes of Athas. I'm really eager to write some upcoming DDI articles. I'm dying to have the time to blog about new stuff I've tried in my home campaign. I love reading all the new cool ideas people blog about. While 4E is of course not perfect, I just don't see anything stale right now at all. Further, I see changes within Wizards that suggest they are working hard to make sure they are plugged in to what we want and to internally continue to create new concepts. It isn't random chance that Gardmore Abbey has a sandbox feel and responds to PC choice - the team was excited to do that... last year! It isn't strange that Neverwinter fed off of themes and developed a really tight adventure setting. Those were deliberate design goals last year or early this year. (All this I gather from the chat sessions we've been afforded with designers and developers). What have they been cooking this year that we have yet to see due to the production schedule?
This is all fine and great but you are a Playtester. I've been a playtester (Not Wizards) before and the high ups do not share all the information with me nor did I have the same status and benefits as an employee. I was given what they want me to playtest and nothing more.
There is a certain amount of information that nonemployees of Wizards will be given, even if you are a playtester.
To make a long story short, I seriously doubt you are getting the whole scoop because they can release what ever they want to you and the public.
Sure, Xun, but look at it this way... Which of you and Alphastream do you think I should credit with having some insight into what is going on with 4e? He never said he KNOWS anything. What he said is that the people he's worked with at WotC are really excited about 4e (and you should go read the Greg Leeds interview as well, the guy was fairly BUBBLING, and he IS the higher-up you refer to). Admittedly Greg could BS people, but exactly how far down into conspiracy land do we have to go here? The further it is the less credible it is...
Frankly I think WotC brought together a real hard-core team of crunch-heads to build 4e, which is exactly what you want. They went a little rampant, probably initially on the theory that they felt they had to quickly bridge the gap with 8 years of 3.x crunch, and at some point people started to realize that things needed to shift gears, and now we're more into what seems like the 'digital business plan', a slightly reworked and smaller group of more creatively focused developers, and a much greater emphasis on the aspects of the product that are obviously more important now.
TBH I think the whole Monte Cook thing needs no other explanation either. You want a creative guy to add some firepower to your team and get people juiced up, there's probably no other guy you could want more, right? You don't need '5e' coming along (3 years after 4e, right...) to explain anything.
As for "why do you want more bloat, that's all that's left to do", well, no it isn't. I'll also note that IMHO there were underlying reasons for both the 2e->3e and 3.5->4e version transitions. AD&D WAS tapped out, after 20 years on the market it was both tapped out and dated. It was a fun game, but it always did have a lot of inherent limitations, even compared to a lot of systems of its time. It had compensating virtues, but what could be done with 2e had been done with 2e. While I wouldn't say the same thing for 3.5 I would say that it A) is not SO much different from AD&D that it really opened up that much new design space conceptually, and that B) its well-known characteristics really did limit it, in fact in some ways MORE so than AD&D. It was almost kind of a hyper-D&D in that sense. Now, only time will prove out that 4e is more durable, but I am utterly clear on one thing, it is a VASTLY more flexible game than 3.x was.
Sit down a do some world building with 4e Xun, you'll find out. It is really a whole different experience than world building in earlier editions. You can do a heck of a lot more with it in many respects. I don't think it will be tapped out for another 10 years.
If we go by your line of thinking then no edition has ever been "tapped" out. There has always been more than could have been added to any system but the line has to be drawn somewhere. There comes a time when you have too much icing on the cake and that's what is happening right now.
Monte Cook is not back to work on 4th edition and he sure wasn't just hired on to write for L&L. Mearls has been floating something else around for quite a while and now they have Cook back on board. As much as you love 4th edition and think it's the god of all games, there are a good many people out there who don't and they want something different.
The L&L articles are more than just throwing ideas around out there. Why would you invest money into something that has no purpose other than to talk about would could be if this or that was used.
Also no company is going to sit there and tell any customer that they don't like their product. Of course they are going to tell you they are excited about their products. Jesus, Mary and Joseph it doesn't take a genius or a serious game designer or business man to know this. Wizards is a business first and foremost.
Speaking of design space, I remember reading in the Races and Classes preview book, about 30 level races. I think this could be really fleshed out and added to the game. 30 levels of racial features that you pick from as you level up. Who wouldn't want that? Scrap the racial feats, paragon paths and epic destinies tied to race, and make 30 level races. I think it would be super cool.
Just a thought.
I think they should still go with a node-based approach where you pick all your features, feats and powers from a series of lists based on your Race, Class, Background and Theme (or optionally; Race, Role, Powersource, Background, Theme) rather then getting almost everything from your class.
I love the Vampire design; where you can sprinkle any amount of vampire onto a character by picking it as either your class, race, feats, etc.
Now I want that as a base assumption of the system.
If we go by your line of thinking then no edition has ever been "tapped" out.
Exactly (I think we agree), there are still people doing fantastic stuff with previous editions.
I'm looking forward to 5th Ed.
If we go by your line of thinking then no edition has ever been "tapped" out. There has always been more than could have been added to any system but the line has to be drawn somewhere. There comes a time when you have too much icing on the cake and that's what is happening right now.
Huh, I distinctly remember saying 'AD&D was tapped out', but hey, maybe I should say it again, oh I already did....
Monte Cook is not back to work on 4th edition and he sure wasn't just hired on to write for L&L. Mearls has been floating something else around for quite a while and now they have Cook back on board. As much as you love 4th edition and think it's the god of all games, there are a good many people out there who don't and they want something different.
Where did I ever say they hired Monte Cook to write L&L? The fact thay you want something different is no more significant than the fact that I (according to you) don't. I never actually said I don't, nor did I say that '4e is the god of all games', but that's OK.
The L&L articles are more than just throwing ideas around out there. Why would you invest money into something that has no purpose other than to talk about would could be if this or that was used.
Well, there is the little matter of Mike saying that's what he was doing. Exactly how big a project do you think writing a 750 word L&L column exactly is Xun? 10 minutes a week? 20! Ohhh, the impact on the bottom line, it hurts us, yes it does precious! Less hyperbolically there are plenty of reasons to talk to the community. If you go back and read the first L&L Mike actually outlined them for us quite succinctly. Of course everything WotC employees say is double-talk, so I should be a fool to take him at his word. Yeah, that's it! There are just about oodles of things I can imagine Monte Cook working on. Some of them could indeed be interpreted as 5e, and even I don't think it is all that unlikely there will some day be a 5e, but there are likely to be MANY other things before that. For instance how about just having someone on staff to consult about building more interesting adventures? Or revising the 4e core books for the inevitable point when they want to revise them (which you might also interpret as 5e of course, since there is likely to be some difference from the existing core books). I don't think it is unlikely they'll do any number of tweaks at that point. Doesn't mean it is 5e in the way you probably mean.
Also no company is going to sit there and tell any customer that they don't like their product. Of course they are going to tell you they are excited about their products. Jesus, Mary and Joseph it doesn't take a genius or a serious game designer or business man to know this. Wizards is a business first and foremost.
Yes, except the person who's commentary we were debating isn't a WotC employee, is he? Nor was the other freelancer that I listened to an interview of the other day, who was also oozing with enthusiasm. Sure, it can all be a BS smokescreen created by the WotC hype machine. They are all really plants, or brainwashed, or just ignorant fools. Whatever. As I said in my previous post Xun, the question only becomes one of what has the greatest weight of evidence behind it. Either I have to believe that WotC has foolishly decided that treating its customers like a bunch of mushrooms is a good strategy, and outright lying to them both at GENCON and in several other places, or I accept that they're really just not even considering 5e in any serious way aside from maybe the usual throwing darts at the wall that happens in offices around the world every day. I mean I talk to people about what they'd like to see in the next version of my product too, but that doesn't mean I have any firm plan to put out a new version of it. IMHO what WotC says is credible. I accept that it is really nothing more than an opinion, but I like it, because it is mine
I guess I'd like those options as simply part of your race and not having to spend any other resources to get the cool racial powers or abilities.
We now have Themes, Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies that give characters cool things from level 1 through 30, but it seems that race is really only an issue at 1st level. Shouldn't it be more important than that?
I guess I like the idea of no two 30th level elves being mechanically the same, even in the same class. I guess I'd like those options as simply part of your race and not having to spend any other resources to get the cool racial powers or abilities. We now have Themes, Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies that give characters cool things from level 1 through 30, but it seems that race is really only an issue at 1st level. Shouldn't it be more important than that?
I don't really think so, myself ... race isn't something I think of as being particularly important to character identity, particularly with the mutability of fluff meaning your 'elf' could be an anthropomorphic squirrel. Besides, you have racial feats for that.
there's very limited support for being a stereotypical Elf or Dwarf
I'm unconvinced that's a bad thing.
This is all RP anyway. If you want to be a stereotypical dwarf, drink a lot and hate goblins. If you want to be a stereotypical elf, hug trees and hate goblins.
there's very limited support for being a stereotypical Elf or Dwarf
I'm unconvinced that's a bad thing.
This is all RP anyway. If you want to be a stereotypical dwarf, drink a lot and hate goblins. If you want to be a stereotypical elf, hug trees and hate goblins.
races should be important - AND cultures.
Because it is another point frequently forgotten, that Eberron by example brought back again to the spot...
Valenar and Aerenal elves, by example... two distinct, divergent cultures.. yet very elfic.
(Classes as well..)
It's not a requirement to attach mechanics to anything, but when you want to be a Dwarf Wizard who can also swing a nasty battleaxe, who is practically immune to poison and who only moves when he wants to then you're currently out of luck. I see no reason why he shouldn't be able to take a Dwarf encounter power that lets him bash stuff with a battleaxe, and a utility power to negate forced movement or poison damage. Those are very Dwarf-like things to do and would fit the character of a very Dwarf-like Wizard.
They can still be choices, so if you don't really care about race it's fine, but if you want to put some focus on it, it's nice to be given the means.
The same thing can be said for classes. Just flavor your ranged attack as a magic missile if you want to be Wizard; it's all fluff anyway.
It's not a requirement to attach mechanics to anything, but when you want to be a Dwarf Wizard who can also swing a nasty battleaxe, who is practically immune to poison and who only moves when he wants to then you're currently out of luck. I see no reason why he shouldn't be able to take a Dwarf encounter power that lets him bash stuff with a battleaxe, and a utility power to negate forced movement or poison damage. Those are very Dwarf-like things to do and would fit the character of a very Dwarf-like Wizard.
They can still be choices, so if you don't really care about race it's fine, but if you want to put some focus on it, it's nice to be given the means.
Bweh?
Superior Weapon Proficiency (War Axe)
Melee Training (Intelligence)
Snakeblooded OR Poison Adaptation OR Poison Inured
Some feats available through multiclassing and numerous magic items can negate forced movement.
Why would my Dwarf be forced to multiclass and then pick up a magic item, just to expand on something that should come natural to his race?
It's great that we can do a lot through a lot of different ways, but some things should just be made easier. It'll help distinguish characters of different races a bit more.
Your dwarf is already resistant to movement and poison. Genetic skill at weapons is its own thread, but suffice to say it is a very arguable concept to begin with, not to mention WHICH weapon to program into them.
Get DDI. Otherwise you're asking for every single option brought out over several years to be in a single gigantic book.
Your dwarf is already resistant to movement and poison. Genetic skill at weapons is its own thread, but suffice to say it is a very arguable concept to begin with, not to mention WHICH weapon to program into them.
I am for removing default things like weapons skills who are more tied to culture, training, etc - unless the race is 'anormalous', not mudane. And then replaces and offers cultural feats à la Eberron.
That said, I'm 100% okay with giving a race some sort of "picks up weapons really easily!" thing that lets them grab from a reasonable list that makes sense for their biology, like an elf getting to pick a free simple or martial ranged weapon or light thrown weapon because elves have crazy eyesight.
I'd also be in favor of making it a cultural thing, but I think some choices should be there to make your Dwarf more Dwarf or your Elf more Elf.
It's not even about simulationism or genetic traits, it's about storytelling. If I want my character to impact the story because he's a Wizard, I get a million options. But if I want my character to impact the story because he's a Goliath, what do I get? Practically nothing. A single racial encounter power and some traits that probably won't really come up. What if the defining trait of my Goliath is that he's a Goliath, rather then a Wizard? From the very start I'm forced to start reflavoring and adapting, which is not neccesarily a bad thing, but very much a needless thing.
Broken Record
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It's not even about simulationism or genetic traits, it's about storytelling. If I want my character to impact the story because he's a Wizard, I get a million options. But if I want my character to impact the story because he's a Goliath, what do I get? Practically nothing. A single racial encounter power and some traits that probably won't really come up. What if the defining trait of my Goliath is that he's a Goliath, rather then a Wizard? From the very start I'm forced to start reflavoring and adapting, which is not neccesarily a bad thing, but very much a needless thing.
This is what I was trying to say, but Pluisjen is more eloquent than I.
Making race as important as class through all 30 levels would be cool. At least I think so. They could also put variant racial stuff in there. I wanna be more gold dwarf, and I wanna be more dark dwarf and I wanna be a shield dwarf. Or freakin aquatic elves and stuff like that. Without making a bunch of new races.
By the way, I haven't played Pathfinder, but I did play D&D 3.5 for it's entire run. Are they just the same game?
DM and fellow players had the look of "omfg wtf is THAT?!", and when I crit once with my Waraxe they were like "WOAH!", and when I had my summon grab that level 24 dracolich and kept him immobilized for more than half the encounter, I'm pretty sure the DM was confused and a bit pissed at my character.
Fun times, and with relatively little system mastery too
(given how green I was in playing TRPGs in general). I actually did start out as a level 19 Axe-swinging Dwarf Wizard in 4E *shrugs* Dwarf Weapon Training, Waraxe, Melee Training (Intelligence), and I had both Waraxe and Staff Implement in each hand. Was good in melee, had the pre-errata Magic Missile, and used summons primarily from Arcane Power.
DM and fellow players had the look of "omfg wtf is THAT?!", and when I crit once with my Waraxe they were like "WOAH!", and when I had my summon grab that level 24 dracolich and kept him immobilized for more than half the encounter, I'm pretty sure the DM was confused and a bit pissed at my character.
Fun times, and with relatively little system mastery too
Yup, and what this illustrates is the downside of the whole thing if you amp up racial attributes. The more you do that the more you're going to pigeonhole a race to a narrower definition of what they are really well adapted for.
As it is now you have it pretty well. As a dwarf you can take Dwarven Weapon Training and be GOOD with axes, right off at level 1, best melee character feat money can buy. BUT if you want to be a druid or a wizard or whatever non-str/con class you instead have another choice. Take implement mastery or some fun feat, whatever.
I mean what are feats for if not to allow for racial stuff? There are plenty of other uses, but everyone asks for feats to be more optional customization. Your racial predilections are a good candidate for that. Honestly, ANY feat that makes you feel more 'dwarfy' and works well with dwarves is a 'dwarf feat'. Why do some things have to be walled off at all? Make at least some racial feats available to anyone somehow. I do think a lot of it is just always going to be RP anyway.
There is nothing wrong with the current edition, nor has it "burned out". In fact, there is so much yet to explore and Wizards is proving it. Feywild, Elemental Chaos, Shadowfell. Pick your flavor and let your imagination flow.
Something DM's in this "new age" seem to have forgotten is that YOUR imagination still plays a large part of how the game and its mechanics play out. Want a new mechanic? Make it UP!
Dungeons and Dragons is not just about mechanics and rules. It's about endless possibilities and Wizards has strived several times now to remind players of that fact. You CAN insert whatever mechanics and rules you want into your campaigns. Nothing is stopping you.
Dont like the stats of an NPC? Change it.
Don't like Magic Missile now being an automatic hit? Change it.
PC's are important. The imaginative backgrounds and goals PC's give themselves are important. But a good DM and his imagination are invaluable to a great game. There aren't too many of us old schoolers left out there that remember having to make everything up in the 70's with the original game as a guideline. And there aren't that many of us left who can sit down with a basic setting and make it all up as we go while still having plot lines, backstories, etc.
Imagination. Use it. Use the material Wizards is releasing to fuel it. Try running a Shadowfell campaign, that is true to Shadowfell form. Explore the Feywild and its endless magical possibilities. Wizards is giving you good fuel but it isn't up to them to drive the car. You control that.
Best,
--JD
Something DM's in this "new age" seem to have forgotten is that YOUR imagination still plays a large part of how the game and its mechanics paly out. Want a new mechanic? Make it UP!
Dungeons and Dragons is not just about mechanics and rules. It's about endless possibilities and Wizards has strived several times now to remind playrs of that. You CAN insert whatever mechanics and rules you want into your campaigns. nothing is stopping you.
Repeated for emphasis. Race has all the room in the world for the roleplaying part of the game, the part where rules don't really belong!
If you really want to make it mechanically a bit more important, make up a rule, feat or whatever.
I also agree with the people mentioning that the only limit is the imagination. It is true. It can extend to my desire as well; Just take what they gave: The level advancement formula, and just use it past level 30. Create powers. Create feats. Create monsters. Create worlds.
You can't exhaust a game like D&D because it is fueled by the imagination. It is why I tend to shake my head at people who refuse to play the system; The DM and the players make or break the game. Sure, the mechanics may be an issue, but if there is something someone doesn't like, change it.
Create things, guys. Extrapolate on what you're given.
What I'd like to see is some support for levels beyond thirty. I can't see a character just... Stop at level thirty. Not gain more power. Just up and stop advancing. I'm not sure who decided level thirty should be the end of a campaign, but meh.
I also agree with the people mentioning that the only limit is the imagination. It is true. It can extend to my desire as well; Just take what they gave: The level advancement formula, and just use it past level 30. Create powers. Create feats. Create monsters. Create worlds.
You can't exhaust a game like D&D because it is fueled by the imagination. It is why I tend to shake my head at people who refuse to play the system; The DM and the players make or break the game. Sure, the mechanics may be an issue, but if there is something someone doesn't like, change it.
Create things, guys. Extrapolate on what you're given.
The fact is, an old poll(s) amongst players shown in the past that a majority of D&Der actually NEVER play 'epic' levels. Stopping at 20, if not 10 levels...
Making race as important as class through all 30 levels would be cool.
I find that racist.
Making race as important as class through all 30 levels would be cool.
I find that racist.
It is a fantasy world, and race is used to means 'species'.
(the correct term for specie-based discrimination and racism, like humans toward orcs, is 'speciesm' BTE)
It would be racism if you'd have a culture-'phenotype' (the more correct, I think, term for what we call here in RL 'races') would have something like a -2 to Int, by example.
Sadly seen in Maztica campaign setting.. :/
You cannot be serious. Gygax took the idea of drow for Norse legends of Dökkálfar, as set forth in the Prose Edda. The legends state these elves were black of skin, lived deep underground, and were skilled at magic.
They were also, like the D&D Xvart, also based on them, quite, quite short, weren't they?
You cannot be serious. Gygax took the idea of drow for Norse legends of Dökkálfar, as set forth in the Prose Edda. The legends state these elves were black of skin, lived deep underground, and were skilled at magic.
They were also, like the D&D Xvart, also based on them, quite, quite short, weren't they?
'Been told they where not actually dark skinned, and closer to dwarves or gnomes to a point. Maybe like the 'elves' of Harry Potter?
But WHAT is an elf, indeed?
You cannot be serious. Gygax took the idea of drow for Norse legends of Dökkálfar, as set forth in the Prose Edda. The legends state these elves were black of skin, lived deep underground, and were skilled at magic.
They were also, like the D&D Xvart, also based on them, quite, quite short, weren't they?
'Been told they where not actually dark skinned, and closer to dwarves or gnomes to a point. Maybe like the 'elves' of Harry Potter?
But WHAT is an elf, indeed?
I think you are referring to the Dvergr. Dwarves. Which are now the Duergar. Dark Dwarves.
Personally, I think they have a lot of room to build on and I believe they will because the DDi subscriptions are too much money and the entire system would have to be rejiggered to adjust.
Classes: There's more to be done, Vampire and Witch are an opening to other areas, plus the addition of sub-classes added lots of areas to flesh out. They opened an entire realm of possibility with Sub-classes.
Races: Clearly not tapped out and once again the addition of cultures like the Gold Dwarves adds for lots of expansion for other races, that already exist.
Backgrounds: I think these are an under appreciatted area and should be re-vitalized.
Themes: Just got started, lots of room for meaningful expansion.
Racial Feats/Class Feats: Several races and classes need heavy support so lots of space to expand here.
There is not an area of this game that is tapped out, I actually think 4e will be around a long time, since I think the books are a means to get people to DDi now. There's only bloat if people get things they don't want, a lot of people called HoS bloat but damned if I didn't see alot of people walk out of the store with the book and lots of material from those books show up at the tables.
The only time to end 4e is when the system becomes dated and it is still exceedingly fresh to my eyes.
You cannot be serious. Gygax took the idea of drow for Norse legends of Dökkálfar, as set forth in the Prose Edda. The legends state these elves were black of skin, lived deep underground, and were skilled at magic.
They were also, like the D&D Xvart, also based on them, quite, quite short, weren't they?
'Been told they where not actually dark skinned, and closer to dwarves or gnomes to a point. Maybe like the 'elves' of Harry Potter?
But WHAT is an elf, indeed?
Dökkálfar literally translates to "dark elf" and are described in the Edda Prose as having skin as "dark as pitch".
Now, the misogyny, I can't explain. It's not in the legends of the Dökkálfar. It seems that Gygax wanted something alien, and chose to model the race on black widow spiders. So he made their goddess a black widow spider queen, and then created a culture around that concept. I agree that it's unfortunate that the drow are the earliest and best known matriarchical culture in D&D, and I think that probaby does reflect that Gygax was, at the time, writing for and marketing towards a lot of nerdy boys who had some serious insecurities about women. Maybe it reflects his marriage was in trouble (he got divorced from his first wife a few years later). Maybe it's just a cool idea that caught on, but has unfortunate gender-issues.
Did Greyhak have any other matriarchal governments? There are the Ladies of Crede, but Gygax didn't create them.
What I hope to see in the future is a pairing down of the redundancy, without sacrificing player options. Make the races, backgrounds/themes, and classes more modular (use a feature swap mechanic, and let feats be more for minor/situational character tweaks), and reduce the number of powers substantially (DON'T group them on class, use race/power source/role/other pre-reqs). Provide some default character templates, and never again "simplify" a class like they did with essentials. I like the idea of having race being important beyond first level. Racial powers and feats are awesome, but shouldn't be competing with class/role feats and powers.
You cannot be serious. Gygax took the idea of drow for Norse legends of Dökkálfar, as set forth in the Prose Edda. The legends state these elves were black of skin, lived deep underground, and were skilled at magic.
They were also, like the D&D Xvart, also based on them, quite, quite short, weren't they?
'Been told they where not actually dark skinned, and closer to dwarves or gnomes to a point. Maybe like the 'elves' of Harry Potter?
But WHAT is an elf, indeed?
Dökkálfar literally translates to "dark elf" and are described in the Edda Prose as having skin as "dark as pitch".
Now, the misogyny, I can't explain. It's not in the legends of the Dökkálfar. It seems that Gygax wanted something alien, and chose to model the race on black widow spiders. So he made their goddess a black widow spider queen, and then created a culture around that concept. I agree that it's unfortunate that the drow are the earliest and best known matriarchical culture in D&D, and I think that probably does reflect that Gygax was, at the time, writing for and marketing towards a lot of nerdy boys who had some serious insecurities about women. Maybe it reflects his marriage was in trouble (he got divorced from his first wife a few years later). Maybe it's just a cool idea that caught on, but has unfortunate gender-issues.
Did Greyhawk have any other matriarchal governments? There are the Ladies of Crede, but Gygax didn't create them.
Not that there aren't other matriarchal/"subtle" dominatrix themes elsewhere in fantasy *coughmordsithcough*.
. . . What can we say? Guys like chicks in leather.
Then again, my wife wants to make a Mord-Sith costume from the Legend of the Seeker show, so . . .
Oh, crap. Now I'm doing it.
Pics or it didn't happen.
Oh, crap. Now I'm doing it.
Well, she has some of the material for it, but she hasn't yet made it. Yet.
Told you guys like chicks in leather.
You cannot be serious. Gygax took the idea of drow for Norse legends of Dökkálfar, as set forth in the Prose Edda. The legends state these elves were black of skin, lived deep underground, and were skilled at magic.
They were also, like the D&D Xvart, also based on them, quite, quite short, weren't they?
'Been told they where not actually dark skinned, and closer to dwarves or gnomes to a point. Maybe like the 'elves' of Harry Potter?
But WHAT is an elf, indeed?
Dökkálfar literally translates to "dark elf" and are described in the Edda Prose as having skin as "dark as pitch".
Now, the misogyny, I can't explain. It's not in the legends of the Dökkálfar. It seems that Gygax wanted something alien, and chose to model the race on black widow spiders. So he made their goddess a black widow spider queen, and then created a culture around that concept. I agree that it's unfortunate that the drow are the earliest and best known matriarchical culture in D&D, and I think that probably does reflect that Gygax was, at the time, writing for and marketing towards a lot of nerdy boys who had some serious insecurities about women. Maybe it reflects his marriage was in trouble (he got divorced from his first wife a few years later). Maybe it's just a cool idea that caught on, but has unfortunate gender-issues.
Did Greyhawk have any other matriarchal governments? There are the Ladies of Crede, but Gygax didn't create them.
Not that there aren't other matriarchal/"subtle" dominatrix themes elsewhere in fantasy *coughmordsithcough*.
. . . What can we say? Guys like chicks in leather.
Then again, my wife wants to make a Mord-Sith costume from the Legend of the Seeker show, so . . .
It is not quite what feminism is for BTW.
Not 'ruling women', but 'egal opportunities', both gender.
It is not quite what feminism is for BTW.
Not 'ruling women', but 'egal opportunities', both gender.
Exactly. The more I read your posts, the more I like you. <3
A matriarchy, like the Drow have, is not the goal of feminism. And I would like to say that I think most D&D societies, especially 4E ones, do a pretty good job on the subject of gender equality. It seems to be something of a non-issue in most of the campaign settings. Gone are the days when female characters had a lower limit on their STR score, here are the days when you can roll a female Fighter/Barbarian/Whatever and have nobody so much as blink.
Gone are the days when female characters had a lower limit on their STR score, here are the days when you can roll a female Fighter/Barbarian/Whatever and have nobody so much as blink.
It's like it is 1973 and Red Sonja is here all over again.
It is not quite what feminism is for BTW.
Not 'ruling women', but 'equal opportunities', both gender.
I never said it was. ;)
I was saying that the "dominant woman" theme being prevalent was because many guys seem to think they could handle being disciplined by a woman in leather. Some of them even could. ;)
For the rest of us, there's cosplay?
I do, however, enjoy the equal opportunites that genders are allowed. Though saying that both genders are exactly equal is kind of an odd idea. Equal opportunity yes, equal physically and mentally? I don't think I have to be too obvious in stating the differences that women and men have both physically and mentally.
Even then, though, a barbarian woman is and should be just as encouraged as a male dancer. Differences in stats, abilities, etc "just because they are chicks" is the worst idea I've ever seen. I am glad game makers have wised up to that. ;)
Gone are the days when female characters had a lower limit on their STR score, here are the days when you can roll a female Fighter/Barbarian/Whatever and have nobody so much as blink.
It's like it is 1973 and Red Sonja is here all over again.
Xena is more recent...