Paizo CEO: Pathfinder is Outselling D&D - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Paizo CEO: Pathfinder is Outselling D&D

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Damon_Tor
Jul 01, 2011 2:46:34 Wednesday, Paizo's CEO Lisa Stevens confirmed that Pathfinder is now outselling D&D.

Discuss.
#2
DarkSphinx
Jul 01, 2011 2:58:33 This was probably inevitable, due to the fact that Paizo sells digital copies of their books and Wizards of the Coast does not.

-DS
#3
red-jack
Jul 01, 2011 3:00:52 I am now confirming that my memoirs, "The Life and Times of a Totally Righteous Dude - The RedJack Story" with cover art by Frank Frazetta featuring my likeness surrounded by exhausted, buxom women, is now outselling all paizo products according to my research.

So yeah, I as an individual person who is hawking a completely fictional book, is totally beating out a large corporation in sales "in all the markets that I check."

This entire post is exactly as meaningful as Ms. Stevens' post.
#4
Tony_Vargas
Jul 01, 2011 3:01:00 What I saw confirmed was that they were moving more units than they had been before. Unless WotC has started sharing it's state-secret-like sales figures with its 'competitor,' that's all they'd be able to confirm, anyway... :shrug:

It wouldn't be at all surprising if D&D sales were lower - afterall, they've produced less stuff lately.
#5
Artifact
Jul 01, 2011 3:12:53 Well, when they start making more books for D&D, I'll buy 'em. Simple as that ;). They're making less, so is a dip in sales really a s'prise?

Not to mention, her research doesn't seem all that scientific (more like word of mouth-- which can sometimes be misleading).

In any case, doesn't really matter to me. Both games appear to be selling well enough to sustain themselves. That's all that really matters --play the game of your choice.
#6
Garthanos
Jul 01, 2011 6:19:18 One more pointless PF thread... sigh Damon for shame.
#42
Seeker95
Jul 01, 2011 10:13:43
if you still state I'm acting illogically after I've explained why Lisa is a credible source, then we don't have much more to discuss.

Well, then. There it is.

#43
tiballagher
Jul 01, 2011 10:21:57
While I think it's a pretty logical decision to see Lisa's statement has truthful. No offense was taken, but if you still state I'm acting illogically after I've explained why Lisa is a credible source, then we don't have much more to discuss. She has, from distributors, both the numbers of Paizo sales and Wizards. And she has access to all distributors that distribute Paizo products- which is most likely a ton of them. Again- if the weight of being a CEO, in an inforrmed position, has no bearing of credibility, then nothing will sway you to see her as a credible source.

She's a credible source making a very ambiguous statement. It can be truthful without without supporting the larger implication that Pathfinder is overtaking 4E.
#44
hunterian7
Jul 01, 2011 10:26:00
While I think it's a pretty logical decision to see Lisa's statement has truthful. No offense was taken, but if you still state I'm acting illogically after I've explained why Lisa is a credible source, then we don't have much more to discuss. She has, from distributors, both the numbers of Paizo sales and Wizards. And she has access to all distributors that distribute Paizo products- which is most likely a ton of them. Again- if the weight of being a CEO, in an inforrmed position, has no bearing of credibility, then nothing will sway you to see her as a credible source.

She's a credible source making a very ambiguous statement. It can be truthful without without supporting the larger implication that Pathfinder is overtaking 4E.

True. I do commend her for coming out and saying what she did. In light of some of the posts above, I concede the argument about her knowing WotC sales directly.

I don't see why some posters take this as an offense and use it to take a shot at Paizo customers. Posters who have hostile things to say towards Paizo only validate their insecurity. Tiballagher, you don't fall into this group.
#45
Grand_Theft_Otto
Jul 01, 2011 10:37:19
It wouldn't be at all surprising if D&D sales were lower - afterall, they've produced less stuff lately.

This. Every month I can snag a new Pathfinder fluff book or well written adventure to convert for my 4th edition game set in the pathfinder world. I only wish I had the same options for my 4e darksun game. D&D gets about $70 bucks a year from me for my insider subscription. I'll pick up any monster books, but most crunch pretty much works better in the database/character builder now. Their fluff hasnt been all that great, and I still haven't seen a WOTC 4E published adventure that really makes me want to pay extra for it. I think Pathfinder also benefits from being aimed at an older crowd.
#46
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek
Jul 01, 2011 10:38:05 The thing is it may be true or it may not. Saying it's not and attacking someone's credibility doesn't automatically make it false.

We don't know anything about the sources that she has. You would be surprised how many contacts a person can have in the business and media world.

In all honesty Pathfinder doesn't have to prove anything and I don't believe they were trying to rub Wizards nose in it. Paizo isn't worried about Wizards of the Coast and I think that actually scares some people.

I also think people just find it hard to actually admit that Paizo could actually be doing better than Wizards of the Coast because they happen to like 4th edition better than Pathfinder and that is understandable.
#47
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek
Jul 01, 2011 10:40:06
It wouldn't be at all surprising if D&D sales were lower - afterall, they've produced less stuff lately.

This. Every month I can snag a new Pathfinder fluff book or well written adventure to convert for my 4th edition game set in the pathfinder world. I only wish I had the same options for my 4e darksun game. D&D gets about $70 bucks a year from me for my insider subscription. I'll pick up any monster books, but most crunch pretty much works better in the database/character builder now. Their fluff hasnt been all that great, and I still haven't seen a WOTC 4E published adventure that really makes me want to pay extra for it. I think Pathfinder also benefits from being aimed at an older crowd.

Don't forget the PDF sales.
#48
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek
Jul 01, 2011 10:41:31
another crap thread

Then why did you bother to post?

If it's such a crap thread then wouldn't that speak for itself and not need you to announce it?
#49
thecasualoblivion
Jul 01, 2011 10:42:04 And if people brought up these topics for reasons other than validating their dislike of D&D in it's current form, maybe they'd get a different response.

Paizo doing well isn't the issue. The fact that all threads like this are just another passive aggressive edition war is.
#50
incenjucar
Jul 01, 2011 10:44:21 In all honesty, I don't see why this should matter.

So long as 4E has a significant enough player base that I don't have to scrounge around for players, and continues to put out products I enjoy, that's all I need as a player and DM. If 4E was somehow crushed under Pathfinder, I would just find a completely new game to play, as there is no likely circumstance under which I would desire to play Pathfinder regardless of the state of their competition, though I am happy that many people greatly enjoy it.
#51
Nyarlathotep
Jul 01, 2011 10:45:51
I don't see why some posters take this as an offense and use it to take a shot at Paizo customers.

I wasn't taking a shot at Paizo customers. Not in general anyway. I was taking ashot at the specific subset of Paizo customers who think that if they can "prove" that D&D is "Losing" that we poor benighted 4e players will renounce our heretical ways and take up the mantle of the One True RPG, Pathfinder. They make no sense to me and, frankly, I am beginning to find them annoying.
#52
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek
Jul 01, 2011 10:48:00
And if people brought up these topics for reasons other than validating their dislike of D&D in it's current form, maybe they'd get a different response. Paizo doing well isn't the issue. The fact that all threads like this are just another passive aggressive edition war is.

Mmmmm...no You are so quick to think that people talk bad about 4th edition because they feel like they need to run it into the dirt. Maybe people talk bad about the game because they actually feel like the game they love has taken a turn for the worst and they don't want to see it continue to go down that path.

Wizards can attempt to defend themselves if they feel the need.
#53
Grand_Theft_Otto
Jul 01, 2011 10:48:37
It wouldn't be at all surprising if D&D sales were lower - afterall, they've produced less stuff lately.

This. Every month I can snag a new Pathfinder fluff book or well written adventure to convert for my 4th edition game set in the pathfinder world. I only wish I had the same options for my 4e darksun game. D&D gets about $70 bucks a year from me for my insider subscription. I'll pick up any monster books, but most crunch pretty much works better in the database/character builder now. Their fluff hasnt been all that great, and I still haven't seen a WOTC 4E published adventure that really makes me want to pay extra for it. I think Pathfinder also benefits from being aimed at an older crowd.

Don't forget the PDF sales.

Yup, money directly in their coffers. The bonus PDF also makes it tempting to buy direct from them as opposed to Amazon or whatever, meaning they get a bigger cut of any such sale. Unfortunately, WOTC doesnt offer a similar program, and the easiest way to get a PDF of a book you physically own is through illegal means.
#54
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek
Jul 01, 2011 10:50:11
I don't see why some posters take this as an offense and use it to take a shot at Paizo customers.

I wasn't taking a shot at Paizo customers. Not in general anyway. I was taking ashot at the specific subset of Paizo customers who think that if they can "prove" that D&D is "Losing" that we poor benighted 4e players will renounce our heretical ways and take up the mantle of the One True RPG, Pathfinder. They make no sense to me and, frankly, I am beginning to find them annoying.

Why do you think it's all about you? Why can't it just be a simple fact that Paizo may be doing better than Wizards?
#55
OleOneEye
Jul 01, 2011 10:55:47 Wasn't she a brand manager at TSR, or something like that? I've never met the lady, but am cynical enough to speculate there may be a bit of bad blood there.
#56
Gunthar
Jul 01, 2011 11:26:11
While I think it's a pretty logical decision to see Lisa's statement has truthful. No offense was taken, but if you still state I'm acting illogically after I've explained why Lisa is a credible source, then we don't have much more to discuss. She has, from distributors, both the numbers of Paizo sales and Wizards. And she has access to all distributors that distribute Paizo products- which is most likely a ton of them. Again- if the weight of being a CEO, in an inforrmed position, has no bearing of credibility, then nothing will sway you to see her as a credible source.

She's a credible source making a very ambiguous statement. It can be truthful without without supporting the larger implication that Pathfinder is overtaking 4E.

True. I do commend her for coming out and saying what she did. In light of some of the posts above, I concede the argument about her knowing WotC sales directly. I don't see why some posters take this as an offense and use it to take a shot at Paizo customers. Posters who have hostile things to say towards Paizo only validate their insecurity. Tiballagher, you don't fall into this group.

It's nothing hostile against Paizo (I buy many of their products even though I don't play PF) it's againt cultist trolls who blindly worship them without reason or objectivity and try to push those beliefs on those who don't agree.
#57
Nyarlathotep
Jul 01, 2011 11:30:02
I don't see why some posters take this as an offense and use it to take a shot at Paizo customers.

I wasn't taking a shot at Paizo customers. Not in general anyway. I was taking ashot at the specific subset of Paizo customers who think that if they can "prove" that D&D is "Losing" that we poor benighted 4e players will renounce our heretical ways and take up the mantle of the One True RPG, Pathfinder. They make no sense to me and, frankly, I am beginning to find them annoying.

Why do you think it's all about you? Why can't it just be a simple fact that Paizo may be doing better than Wizards?

You really think that it's not an attempt to convince 4e players that 4e is losing? Seriously? I don't really think you do but I won't argue what's going on in your own head. That being said, I might buy that if this sort of thread were just an occasional thing, but after about the 872nd iteration of this thread, one begins to get a mite suspicious that there is more to it than just "Yay, my favorite game is doing really well". On the PATHFINDER forums, one might expect to see a steady stream of "HEY! Pathfinder is doing really well, we're beating 4e!" threads that are nothing more than that, granted. When you see them over here on a regular basis, it seems far more likely that they are a misguided attempt at getting people to switch to Pathfinder for whatever reason.

#58
Gunthar
Jul 01, 2011 11:32:30
Mmmmm...no You are so quick to think that people talk bad about 4th edition because they feel like they need to run it into the dirt. Maybe people talk bad about the game because they actually feel like the game they love has taken a turn for the worst and they don't want to see it continue to go down that path.

Wizards can attempt to defend themselves if they feel the need.

Maybe you and the PF cult should just go back to your own little world instead of polluting forums for/of people who prefer something else. Paizo caters to those who wanted to continue the d20 system, 4E caters to the people that prefer that system. Get over your narcisism that the entire gaming world should revolve around your ilk.

#59
ORC_Sinister
Jul 01, 2011 11:41:03
I’ve removed content from this thread because baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here: wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg...
#60
Haldrik
Jul 01, 2011 11:46:18 In context, the claim in the Paizo thread was, Pathfinder is catering to a finite market of entrenched rejectionists, with less ability to reach out to a wider market.

The comment by the CEO intends to dispute that claim, saying Paizo is selling better now than last year, thus Paizo can reach out to a wider market. Her claim, Paizo is even outselling D&D in “most of the markets that I checked”, intends to show it can even reach the D&D consumer base.

The original post seems to take her comment out of context.

First, the CEO is only checking “markets” where Paizo is in direct competition with D&D. In most places that sell D&D, Paizo simply doesnt exist. This is especially true in the international markets.

Second, she specifies, Paizo is “selling more Core Rulesbooks at a faster clip now”. Thus her selective research seems to only compare the Paizo Core Rulebook to the D&D core rulebooks. It is unclear if this means PH1-MM1-DMG1, or else Essentials books, or both.

The market confusion that WotC caused by introducing Essentials and abandoning Core probably interferes with WotC sales statistics. Many wont buy Essentials because they prefer Core, and many wont buy Core because WotC obsoleted it, and many buy the “wrong” book by mistake.

So, in those markets that Paizo happens to have, where D&D is almost always there too, Paizo does relatively well. These are markets that specifically order Paizo, often because their culture has an anti-D&D (4e) crowd. So the research for these markets is often self-selecting.

The bottom line. In no way does Paizo compete with the volume of sales that D&D enjoys. Even when only limited to the “rulebooks” of either core o4e or essential e4e.

Third. Even with the claim of increase in sales, Paizo may still be unable to reach wider markets. Many gamers who hate D&D 4e, may also hate Pathfinder, because, as one of my friends says, “Pathfinder doesnt actually fix anything”, and “I dont need to pay for someone elses houserules”. However, because Paizo seems to be the only company that produces viable products for D&D 3e gamers, the 3e gamers may now be giving in and purchasing some of these Pathfinder products.

Even tho Paizo is selling Pathfinder at a “faster clip”, this may well represent the limited market of 3e gamers who dont want to play 4e. Thus is still the same consumer base and doesnt represent an outreach into new markets.

The bottom line. Paizo does seem to be doing well and meeting the needs of its customers, whether they are an extreme niche or not. But D&D is still out of Paizos league.
#61
Kravell
Jul 01, 2011 11:49:41
Also, not sales numbers, but if you look at the current Amazon bestsellers in the Books/Science Fiction and Fantasy/Gaming category, the top 20 shakes down like this:

1. Conquest of Nerath
2. Monster Vault: Threats to the Nentir Vale
3. World of Warcraft: The Shattering
4. Dungeon Tiles: The Witchlight Fens
5. Pathfinder RPG (Core Rulebook)
6. Pathfinder RPG: Ultimate Magic
7. D&D Rules Compendium
8. Art of George R. R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire
9. Monster Vault
10. D&D 4e Player's Handbook
11. D&D Basic Set
12. D&D 4e Core Rulebook Gift Set
13. Pathfinder RPG: Advanced Player's Guide
14. Pathfinder RPG: Bestiary
15. D&D 4e Player's Handbook 2
16. Dungeon Tiles Master Set: The Wilderness
17. The Shadowfell: Gloomwrought and Beyond
18. D&D 3.5e Player's Handbook
19. Fires of Prophecy
20. D&D 4e Dungeon Master's Kit

I would assume this is a snapshot of current sales, and in no way indicitive of historical category sales since 2008. WotC has 12 of the top 20 current bestsellers in the category on Amazon, compared to 4 from Pathfinder. Biggest WTF would be the 3.5e PHB, of course.

www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=sr_nr_n_0?r...

Not true. Under Fantasy Gaming with rpg in the search field and bestselling sort, PF holds the top three spots as they have for quite a while.
#62
Kravell
Jul 01, 2011 11:52:40
No one knows the sales figures for any rpg producer. I'm curious then why everyone assumes Wizards is the top-selling rpg. I know it makes sense and seems to fit the facts, but we're drawing conclusions without any real data. I'm actually okay with inferring that D&D is top dog as it matches all the known facts I can gather. But when people argue that Lisa Stevens can't draw any conclusions at all about the game market, then why should any of the rest of us do so?
#63
thecasualoblivion
Jul 01, 2011 11:56:19 Again, what Paizo or 4E is selling really isn't the point of this thread. The point is that this thread is yet another passive aggressive edition war.
#64
Haldrik
Jul 01, 2011 11:59:19 I agree with the sentiment, the D&D community can welcome Pathfinder as friendly rivals, and focus on the advancements D&D has already made.
#65
Garthanos
Jul 01, 2011 12:02:40
Again, what Paizo or 4E is selling really isn't the point of this thread. The point is that this thread is yet another passive aggressive edition war.

Agreed

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Damon_Tor Jul 01, 2011 2:46:34	Wednesday, Paizo's CEO Lisa Stevens confirmed that Pathfinder is now outselling D&D. Discuss.
#2 DarkSphinx Jul 01, 2011 2:58:33	This was probably inevitable, due to the fact that Paizo sells digital copies of their books and Wizards of the Coast does not. -DS
#3 red-jack Jul 01, 2011 3:00:52	I am now confirming that my memoirs, "The Life and Times of a Totally Righteous Dude - The RedJack Story" with cover art by Frank Frazetta featuring my likeness surrounded by exhausted, buxom women, is now outselling all paizo products according to my research. So yeah, I as an individual person who is hawking a completely fictional book, is totally beating out a large corporation in sales "in all the markets that I check." This entire post is exactly as meaningful as Ms. Stevens' post.
#4 Tony_Vargas Jul 01, 2011 3:01:00	What I saw confirmed was that they were moving more units than they had been before. Unless WotC has started sharing it's state-secret-like sales figures with its 'competitor,' that's all they'd be able to confirm, anyway... :shrug: It wouldn't be at all surprising if D&D sales were lower - afterall, they've produced less stuff lately.
#5 Artifact Jul 01, 2011 3:12:53	Well, when they start making more books for D&D, I'll buy 'em. Simple as that ;). They're making less, so is a dip in sales really a s'prise? Not to mention, her research doesn't seem all that scientific (more like word of mouth-- which can sometimes be misleading). In any case, doesn't really matter to me. Both games appear to be selling well enough to sustain themselves. That's all that really matters --play the game of your choice.
#6 Garthanos Jul 01, 2011 6:19:18	One more pointless PF thread... sigh Damon for shame.
#42 Seeker95 Jul 01, 2011 10:13:43	if you still state I'm acting illogically after I've explained why Lisa is a credible source, then we don't have much more to discuss. Well, then. There it is.
#43 tiballagher Jul 01, 2011 10:21:57	While I think it's a pretty logical decision to see Lisa's statement has truthful. No offense was taken, but if you still state I'm acting illogically after I've explained why Lisa is a credible source, then we don't have much more to discuss. She has, from distributors, both the numbers of Paizo sales and Wizards. And she has access to all distributors that distribute Paizo products- which is most likely a ton of them. Again- if the weight of being a CEO, in an inforrmed position, has no bearing of credibility, then nothing will sway you to see her as a credible source. She's a credible source making a very ambiguous statement. It can be truthful without without supporting the larger implication that Pathfinder is overtaking 4E.
#44 hunterian7 Jul 01, 2011 10:26:00	While I think it's a pretty logical decision to see Lisa's statement has truthful. No offense was taken, but if you still state I'm acting illogically after I've explained why Lisa is a credible source, then we don't have much more to discuss. She has, from distributors, both the numbers of Paizo sales and Wizards. And she has access to all distributors that distribute Paizo products- which is most likely a ton of them. Again- if the weight of being a CEO, in an inforrmed position, has no bearing of credibility, then nothing will sway you to see her as a credible source. She's a credible source making a very ambiguous statement. It can be truthful without without supporting the larger implication that Pathfinder is overtaking 4E. True. I do commend her for coming out and saying what she did. In light of some of the posts above, I concede the argument about her knowing WotC sales directly. I don't see why some posters take this as an offense and use it to take a shot at Paizo customers. Posters who have hostile things to say towards Paizo only validate their insecurity. Tiballagher, you don't fall into this group.
#45 Grand_Theft_Otto Jul 01, 2011 10:37:19	It wouldn't be at all surprising if D&D sales were lower - afterall, they've produced less stuff lately. This. Every month I can snag a new Pathfinder fluff book or well written adventure to convert for my 4th edition game set in the pathfinder world. I only wish I had the same options for my 4e darksun game. D&D gets about $70 bucks a year from me for my insider subscription. I'll pick up any monster books, but most crunch pretty much works better in the database/character builder now. Their fluff hasnt been all that great, and I still haven't seen a WOTC 4E published adventure that really makes me want to pay extra for it. I think Pathfinder also benefits from being aimed at an older crowd.
#46 XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek Jul 01, 2011 10:38:05	The thing is it may be true or it may not. Saying it's not and attacking someone's credibility doesn't automatically make it false. We don't know anything about the sources that she has. You would be surprised how many contacts a person can have in the business and media world. In all honesty Pathfinder doesn't have to prove anything and I don't believe they were trying to rub Wizards nose in it. Paizo isn't worried about Wizards of the Coast and I think that actually scares some people. I also think people just find it hard to actually admit that Paizo could actually be doing better than Wizards of the Coast because they happen to like 4th edition better than Pathfinder and that is understandable.
#47 XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek Jul 01, 2011 10:40:06	It wouldn't be at all surprising if D&D sales were lower - afterall, they've produced less stuff lately. This. Every month I can snag a new Pathfinder fluff book or well written adventure to convert for my 4th edition game set in the pathfinder world. I only wish I had the same options for my 4e darksun game. D&D gets about $70 bucks a year from me for my insider subscription. I'll pick up any monster books, but most crunch pretty much works better in the database/character builder now. Their fluff hasnt been all that great, and I still haven't seen a WOTC 4E published adventure that really makes me want to pay extra for it. I think Pathfinder also benefits from being aimed at an older crowd. Don't forget the PDF sales.
#48 XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek Jul 01, 2011 10:41:31	another crap thread Then why did you bother to post? If it's such a crap thread then wouldn't that speak for itself and not need you to announce it?
#49 thecasualoblivion Jul 01, 2011 10:42:04	And if people brought up these topics for reasons other than validating their dislike of D&D in it's current form, maybe they'd get a different response. Paizo doing well isn't the issue. The fact that all threads like this are just another passive aggressive edition war is.
#50 incenjucar Jul 01, 2011 10:44:21	In all honesty, I don't see why this should matter. So long as 4E has a significant enough player base that I don't have to scrounge around for players, and continues to put out products I enjoy, that's all I need as a player and DM. If 4E was somehow crushed under Pathfinder, I would just find a completely new game to play, as there is no likely circumstance under which I would desire to play Pathfinder regardless of the state of their competition, though I am happy that many people greatly enjoy it.
#51 Nyarlathotep Jul 01, 2011 10:45:51	I don't see why some posters take this as an offense and use it to take a shot at Paizo customers. I wasn't taking a shot at Paizo customers. Not in general anyway. I was taking ashot at the specific subset of Paizo customers who think that if they can "prove" that D&D is "Losing" that we poor benighted 4e players will renounce our heretical ways and take up the mantle of the One True RPG, Pathfinder. They make no sense to me and, frankly, I am beginning to find them annoying.
#52 XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek Jul 01, 2011 10:48:00	And if people brought up these topics for reasons other than validating their dislike of D&D in it's current form, maybe they'd get a different response. Paizo doing well isn't the issue. The fact that all threads like this are just another passive aggressive edition war is. Mmmmm...no You are so quick to think that people talk bad about 4th edition because they feel like they need to run it into the dirt. Maybe people talk bad about the game because they actually feel like the game they love has taken a turn for the worst and they don't want to see it continue to go down that path. Wizards can attempt to defend themselves if they feel the need.
#53 Grand_Theft_Otto Jul 01, 2011 10:48:37	It wouldn't be at all surprising if D&D sales were lower - afterall, they've produced less stuff lately. This. Every month I can snag a new Pathfinder fluff book or well written adventure to convert for my 4th edition game set in the pathfinder world. I only wish I had the same options for my 4e darksun game. D&D gets about $70 bucks a year from me for my insider subscription. I'll pick up any monster books, but most crunch pretty much works better in the database/character builder now. Their fluff hasnt been all that great, and I still haven't seen a WOTC 4E published adventure that really makes me want to pay extra for it. I think Pathfinder also benefits from being aimed at an older crowd. Don't forget the PDF sales. Yup, money directly in their coffers. The bonus PDF also makes it tempting to buy direct from them as opposed to Amazon or whatever, meaning they get a bigger cut of any such sale. Unfortunately, WOTC doesnt offer a similar program, and the easiest way to get a PDF of a book you physically own is through illegal means.
#54 XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek Jul 01, 2011 10:50:11	I don't see why some posters take this as an offense and use it to take a shot at Paizo customers. I wasn't taking a shot at Paizo customers. Not in general anyway. I was taking ashot at the specific subset of Paizo customers who think that if they can "prove" that D&D is "Losing" that we poor benighted 4e players will renounce our heretical ways and take up the mantle of the One True RPG, Pathfinder. They make no sense to me and, frankly, I am beginning to find them annoying. Why do you think it's all about you? Why can't it just be a simple fact that Paizo may be doing better than Wizards?
#55 OleOneEye Jul 01, 2011 10:55:47	Wasn't she a brand manager at TSR, or something like that? I've never met the lady, but am cynical enough to speculate there may be a bit of bad blood there.
#56 Gunthar Jul 01, 2011 11:26:11	While I think it's a pretty logical decision to see Lisa's statement has truthful. No offense was taken, but if you still state I'm acting illogically after I've explained why Lisa is a credible source, then we don't have much more to discuss. She has, from distributors, both the numbers of Paizo sales and Wizards. And she has access to all distributors that distribute Paizo products- which is most likely a ton of them. Again- if the weight of being a CEO, in an inforrmed position, has no bearing of credibility, then nothing will sway you to see her as a credible source. She's a credible source making a very ambiguous statement. It can be truthful without without supporting the larger implication that Pathfinder is overtaking 4E. True. I do commend her for coming out and saying what she did. In light of some of the posts above, I concede the argument about her knowing WotC sales directly. I don't see why some posters take this as an offense and use it to take a shot at Paizo customers. Posters who have hostile things to say towards Paizo only validate their insecurity. Tiballagher, you don't fall into this group. It's nothing hostile against Paizo (I buy many of their products even though I don't play PF) it's againt cultist trolls who blindly worship them without reason or objectivity and try to push those beliefs on those who don't agree.
#57 Nyarlathotep Jul 01, 2011 11:30:02	I don't see why some posters take this as an offense and use it to take a shot at Paizo customers. I wasn't taking a shot at Paizo customers. Not in general anyway. I was taking ashot at the specific subset of Paizo customers who think that if they can "prove" that D&D is "Losing" that we poor benighted 4e players will renounce our heretical ways and take up the mantle of the One True RPG, Pathfinder. They make no sense to me and, frankly, I am beginning to find them annoying. Why do you think it's all about you? Why can't it just be a simple fact that Paizo may be doing better than Wizards? You really think that it's not an attempt to convince 4e players that 4e is losing? Seriously? I don't really think you do but I won't argue what's going on in your own head. That being said, I might buy that if this sort of thread were just an occasional thing, but after about the 872nd iteration of this thread, one begins to get a mite suspicious that there is more to it than just "Yay, my favorite game is doing really well". On the PATHFINDER forums, one might expect to see a steady stream of "HEY! Pathfinder is doing really well, we're beating 4e!" threads that are nothing more than that, granted. When you see them over here on a regular basis, it seems far more likely that they are a misguided attempt at getting people to switch to Pathfinder for whatever reason.
#58 Gunthar Jul 01, 2011 11:32:30	Mmmmm...no You are so quick to think that people talk bad about 4th edition because they feel like they need to run it into the dirt. Maybe people talk bad about the game because they actually feel like the game they love has taken a turn for the worst and they don't want to see it continue to go down that path. Wizards can attempt to defend themselves if they feel the need. Maybe you and the PF cult should just go back to your own little world instead of polluting forums for/of people who prefer something else. Paizo caters to those who wanted to continue the d20 system, 4E caters to the people that prefer that system. Get over your narcisism that the entire gaming world should revolve around your ilk.
#59 ORC_Sinister Jul 01, 2011 11:41:03	I’ve removed content from this thread because baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here: wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg...
#60 Haldrik Jul 01, 2011 11:46:18	In context, the claim in the Paizo thread was, Pathfinder is catering to a finite market of entrenched rejectionists, with less ability to reach out to a wider market. The comment by the CEO intends to dispute that claim, saying Paizo is selling better now than last year, thus Paizo can reach out to a wider market. Her claim, Paizo is even outselling D&D in “most of the markets that I checked”, intends to show it can even reach the D&D consumer base. The original post seems to take her comment out of context. First, the CEO is only checking “markets” where Paizo is in direct competition with D&D. In most places that sell D&D, Paizo simply doesnt exist. This is especially true in the international markets. Second, she specifies, Paizo is “selling more Core Rulesbooks at a faster clip now”. Thus her selective research seems to only compare the Paizo Core Rulebook to the D&D core rulebooks. It is unclear if this means PH1-MM1-DMG1, or else Essentials books, or both. The market confusion that WotC caused by introducing Essentials and abandoning Core probably interferes with WotC sales statistics. Many wont buy Essentials because they prefer Core, and many wont buy Core because WotC obsoleted it, and many buy the “wrong” book by mistake. So, in those markets that Paizo happens to have, where D&D is almost always there too, Paizo does relatively well. These are markets that specifically order Paizo, often because their culture has an anti-D&D (4e) crowd. So the research for these markets is often self-selecting. The bottom line. In no way does Paizo compete with the volume of sales that D&D enjoys. Even when only limited to the “rulebooks” of either core o4e or essential e4e. Third. Even with the claim of increase in sales, Paizo may still be unable to reach wider markets. Many gamers who hate D&D 4e, may also hate Pathfinder, because, as one of my friends says, “Pathfinder doesnt actually fix anything”, and “I dont need to pay for someone elses houserules”. However, because Paizo seems to be the only company that produces viable products for D&D 3e gamers, the 3e gamers may now be giving in and purchasing some of these Pathfinder products. Even tho Paizo is selling Pathfinder at a “faster clip”, this may well represent the limited market of 3e gamers who dont want to play 4e. Thus is still the same consumer base and doesnt represent an outreach into new markets. The bottom line. Paizo does seem to be doing well and meeting the needs of its customers, whether they are an extreme niche or not. But D&D is still out of Paizos league.
#61 Kravell Jul 01, 2011 11:49:41	Also, not sales numbers, but if you look at the current Amazon bestsellers in the Books/Science Fiction and Fantasy/Gaming category, the top 20 shakes down like this: 1. Conquest of Nerath 2. Monster Vault: Threats to the Nentir Vale 3. World of Warcraft: The Shattering 4. Dungeon Tiles: The Witchlight Fens 5. Pathfinder RPG (Core Rulebook) 6. Pathfinder RPG: Ultimate Magic 7. D&D Rules Compendium 8. Art of George R. R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire 9. Monster Vault 10. D&D 4e Player's Handbook 11. D&D Basic Set 12. D&D 4e Core Rulebook Gift Set 13. Pathfinder RPG: Advanced Player's Guide 14. Pathfinder RPG: Bestiary 15. D&D 4e Player's Handbook 2 16. Dungeon Tiles Master Set: The Wilderness 17. The Shadowfell: Gloomwrought and Beyond 18. D&D 3.5e Player's Handbook 19. Fires of Prophecy 20. D&D 4e Dungeon Master's Kit I would assume this is a snapshot of current sales, and in no way indicitive of historical category sales since 2008. WotC has 12 of the top 20 current bestsellers in the category on Amazon, compared to 4 from Pathfinder. Biggest WTF would be the 3.5e PHB, of course. www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=sr_nr_n_0?r... Not true. Under Fantasy Gaming with rpg in the search field and bestselling sort, PF holds the top three spots as they have for quite a while.
#62 Kravell Jul 01, 2011 11:52:40	No one knows the sales figures for any rpg producer. I'm curious then why everyone assumes Wizards is the top-selling rpg. I know it makes sense and seems to fit the facts, but we're drawing conclusions without any real data. I'm actually okay with inferring that D&D is top dog as it matches all the known facts I can gather. But when people argue that Lisa Stevens can't draw any conclusions at all about the game market, then why should any of the rest of us do so?
#63 thecasualoblivion Jul 01, 2011 11:56:19	Again, what Paizo or 4E is selling really isn't the point of this thread. The point is that this thread is yet another passive aggressive edition war.
#64 Haldrik Jul 01, 2011 11:59:19	I agree with the sentiment, the D&D community can welcome Pathfinder as friendly rivals, and focus on the advancements D&D has already made.
#65 Garthanos Jul 01, 2011 12:02:40	Again, what Paizo or 4E is selling really isn't the point of this thread. The point is that this thread is yet another passive aggressive edition war. Agreed