Question the first: These are "storyteller" games how does that differ from the basic fantasy DM style game that we all know and love?
Question the second: Whats the whole basis to Mage (I think that's what its called)
Question the third: same as the second but with changeling.
just for a point of reference I've played the scion game if that helps at all.
Okay I haven't really played to many white wolf games and not quite gotten it down. So heres my questions:
Question the first: These are "storyteller" games how does that differ from the basic fantasy DM style game that we all know and love?
Question the second: Whats the whole basis to Mage (I think that's what its called)
Question the third: same as the second but with changeling.
just for a point of reference I've played the scion game if that helps at all.
Okay, well, since I wrote large portions of Mage 1.5 (Book of Shadows) to Mage 3.0 (Mage Revised), I think I can field these questions, but note that I've neither worked on nor played the current edition, nor do I speak on behalf of White Wolf.
Storyteller games differ from the D&D mechanic in a few significant ways. One is that all challenges are done with handfuls of d10s instead of single d20s. Characters have traits and skills and the two are added together to make dice pools for challenges. It's fairly easy and straightforward to get the hang of.
One significant difference is that XP are rewarded for roleplaying, which characters having Nature/Demeanor and Flaws, all of which can lead to roleplaying XP. In D&D, if Velma loses her glasses in front of the monster, it sucks to be Velma. In Storyteller, if Velma loses her glasses and her player roleplays this to the hilt, Velma gets XP for good roleplaying of her Flaw.
With Mage, the magic is done differently than with D&D. In Mage, rather than having set spells a mage can do, a mage instead has Spheres, which are basically categories of powers they can possibly use. Spheres are a lot like the D&D schools of magic, except that rather than learning spells, you gain greater understanding of the Spheres. So if you manage to master a Sphere, you can theoretically do any spell that would fall under it, theoretically being the operative word, because the more flamboyant your magic is, the more "vulgar" it is and the more reality will slap you back.
So in D&D, a wizard casts a fireball. In Mage, a mage with skill in Forces can cast a fireball too, but will take backlash from reality unless he disguises it in some easily explainable way to the modern world. For example, he can have the fireball caused by a gas leak. Same net effect, but the 6 o'clock news is talking about a gas leak and explosion, not a wizard throwing fireballs.
With Changeling, changelings are exiles from the Dreaming, fairies by any other name. They have fairy powers. I understand in the current edition, you play a mortal kidnapped by the fairies who now finds his way back. Regardless, you're playing a game with fairy lore in modern day.
Thanks that explains it pretty well. Anothe query I've heard that these games aren't as combat frienly as D&D is this true?
Untrue for the most part. There's tons of combat in WW games. It's just implemented slightly differently. And the different games appeal more to different types of players.
If you want combat-combat-combat, the Storyteller game you'd want the most would be Werewolf, since that lets good werewolves continually slash evil spawn of the Wyrm, which are basically possessed mutants, evil spirits and whatnot.
Mage is generally a lot subtler, but that's what you might expect with a game where everyone plays wizards. An all wizard D&D game would likely be more subtle too.
Play-wise, I've found that Werewolf-Mage-Changeling games work easiest because all three groups are living and they don't have to have naptime during the day like vampires and they're not stuck in the shadow world like wraiths.
Mixed games tend to work best with lots of puzzles and politics. Combat is odd with each of the different groups, so combat challenges will need to be carefully balanced.
Basically, the original games were Vampire the Masquerade, Werewolf the Apocalypse, Mage the Ascension and so on. Everything went through 1st, 2nd and Revised edition. (3rd if you're counting.) After that, the universe ended in a big cataclysm that tied all the games together.
Then WW put out a new cycle with new subtitles and variant rules, kind of like 4e is with D&D. I haven't played it and didn't write it, but I've looked over it and it looks reasonably good. Lots of what was there before is still there, but it's an alternate universe.
However, a lot of players have a lot invested in the old chronology, so they didn't switch, or if they did switch to the new rules, kept the old chronology.
This already happened with Mage 2nd and Mage Revised. In between the two, they had the Horizon War and blew up the Horizon Realms. Of course, a lot of players liked those, so a lot of people who switched to the improved mechanics in Revised kept the storyline from 2nd.
My suggestion is to play whatever edition your friends have the books for, but if you need the books, buy the current edition unless you decide you like some previous edition better.
I've seen the worlds of darkness book but I'm not sure what edition it is.
That's the current edition with the Storytelling System and, in fact, one of the major differences from the oWoD. Whereas in the old days Vampire et al. used to be separate and standalone games in their own right, The World of Darkness is now the core rulebook which allows you to play ordinary mortals who find themselves face to face with weird threats (by default, various sorts of ghosts). It's required for any of the other lines which technically consist of supplementary material for that basic game and include templates for supernatural PCs instead of regular human beings. Incidentally, this also renders the new game much more crossover-friendly, and the shadow cultures don't loathe each other on first sight as they often did in the oWoD: werewolves in general no longer have any particular built-in reason to hate all vampires, for instance. Prometheans are probably the hardest to fit into the same group with others, but that's because they have issues with the entire world hating them.
Well since you seem to be so knowlegable about this stuff I'm going to keep stringing questions along. So next what is the current edition of vam., were, chang., etc? I've seen the worlds of darkness book but I'm not sure what edition it is.
Be aware that there is a d20 version also done by Monte Cook out there. It is not the same system as the White Wolf games. I only looked it over and it looks interesting but also very different in flavor.
Be aware that there is a d20 version also done by Monte Cook out there. It is not the same system as the White Wolf games.
It's not even the same setting. Monte Cook's World of Darkness took some of the basic concepts from the earlier lines, and "reimagined" them into a postapocalyptic action game. There's no secret history of the world, for instance: instead, vampires, werewolves, mages and demons all came into existence only a year ago when Lovecraftian horrors from beyond attempted to destroy the universe but only managed to leave a nightmarish rift in reality. Vampires are souls of the wicked dead from some nebulous hell, returned to possess the living. Mages are the likes of Wiccans and occultists who suddenly discovered that their spells actually work. And so on, and so forth.
It's not even the same setting. Monte Cook's World of Darkness took some of the basic concepts from the earlier lines, and "reimagined" them into a postapocalyptic action game. There's no secret history of the world, for instance: instead, vampires, werewolves, mages and demons all came into existence only a year ago when Lovecraftian horrors from beyond attempted to destroy the universe but only managed to leave a nightmarish rift in reality. Vampires are souls of the wicked dead from some nebulous hell, returned to possess the living. Mages are the likes of Wiccans and occultists who suddenly discovered that their spells actually work. And so on, and so forth.
All the more reason for him to be aware of this book.
Vampire is divided in 3 factions in the western world. One is much for politics and one is more of a rebel side with the third one being neutral. They're all fun to play.
Walking into a place full of old(and strong) vampires, with many who can read your aura and tell youve just been drinking vampire blood(kinda counts as canibalism) at the same time your sire(vampire who created you) had gone missing makes for an interesting playing session
But yeah, vampire can be about politics, about loneliness, about being a cool vampire going to bar's drinking people, about being hunted, about letting your beast side free(and killing lots and lots of people ;) ) and so on..
Werewolf is brutal and spiritual, like a mix of shamans and barbarians or something. They are huge killing machines but most are spiritual in betwen battles, with rites and rituals. I found that very fun as well
Mage is divided into 2 factions I'd say. One is technocracy and the other is mages. Mages are regular people who discover they can make things do things and Technocracy is more or less humans who think science is the way to do everything. To be able to describe this a bit more i have to go into a bit more detail about magic.
Magic(in world of darkness): Basically you can do ANYTHING. The only limit is reality, or rather what people think is possible.
For instance, I was playing a mage with, you could say power over force, matter and luck. At this particular moment Im inside a diner whos about to be rushed by a swat team. Now, I could technically throw a fireball at them, with my power over force. I could also make the whole building into solid steel making entrance more or less impossible, atleast for some time. However as Im sure you all know.. that cant happen. Doesnt mean i cant do it but since people dont believe it could happen, reality is more or less gonna kick my ass for it later
that can be very lethal. So, what I did was.. I used my powers to discover that there was a gas line going just outside the entrance which with my power of luck and force combined, i made explode. Sure it would be extremely lucky for that to happen just as they enter the building, but it could happen. So i got away, more or less So, as long as you come up with a good explanation of whats happening.. Its ok to do anything
Thats what mages do. Technocracy on the other hand, are like men in black. They are in fact called that, on lower levels
Men in black = grunts, men in grey = supervisors and men in white = leaders or something like that.They protect earth against things like aliens(for some reason) and what they call "reality deviants"(mages) and so on. They hunt everything unnatural like werewolves, vampires, wraiths and so on.
They are like mages but instead of using magic they use science and devices(powered by magic, though they dont know or consider it that).
Mage is really fun but a bit complicated, takes alot of the players since you need to come up with ideas how to do things without dying(reality bashing you) and sometimes really quick.
Hunter the reckoning is also fun. Its fun because you play a human with some unhuman abilities, "hunting" the other creatures like vampires and werewolves and so on. learning you have to kill a werewolf is NOT FUN
Youre much underpowered really. Hunter has different "classes" which want to deal with the unnatural in different ways. Some are the more straight forward "kill them ALL" while some thing that they should be "saved". It gets really interesting
Last time i played a hunter i was a hunter dedicated to protecting my family. My wife had died for some reason, cant remember since its been so long ago, but I had 2 kids to fend for. Then one day one of them got hit by a car.. Tragic. But since my Storyteller, a great but sadistic man ;), is who he is... He turned into a wraith. And possessed my other kid.
Got interesting to play, as i also had the rest of the group around and had to hide the fact that my son was possessed and so on
Lastly, Demon the fallen... Really cool game with a very interesting story. You play a fallen angel, who has spent most of your life in hell. theres a hole though big enough for lesser beings to get through but not the mayor huge mega demons :p So you play either as a nice fallen angel, a bad one.. or a mix. Even if you try to do good things, bad things will happen(sometimes very cool though) ;)
I played in a 2 player story in demon the fallen, me being a former Angel of Death and my friend a Angel of Nature. One of the first things we did was stop a cult working beneath a coffee shop(in the cellar) they were trying to summon more demons or something so we decided to stop them.. We go down in a neighbouring building in the cellar there to a wall next to the coffee shop cellar, and my friend with his abilities couldnt walk through walls so he started tearing it down in a werewolf like form(they look like beasts kinda) whereas I simply walk through the wall spread my black wings and walk towards the leader. My friend trashes the wall down in the same instance and roars, theres panic in the room and they start attacking my friend. I reach out and gently touch one of the cultists on the shoulder, a touch of death... And heres where my "angel" power goes wrong... Instead of merely killing the one i touched, everyone in the room falls down dead. Ofcourse later we discover that everyone in the coffee shop died too, another thing to atone for.
Well, thats about it.. They are all fun and variable games, the most important thing is to actually roleplay alot. Explain what youre doing in more detail and so on. Almost any combination IS possible, if you make up a good reason everyone accepts. I think its easier to play than D&D, less rules.
Still think D&D is fun though
Magic(in world of darkness): Basically you can do ANYTHING. The only limit is reality, or rather what people think is possible.
Again, note that none of this applies to Mage: The Awakening and the new World of Darkness, in which reality most definitely isn't consensual as it was in the old setting. In the current game, magic is a legacy of Atlantis, an ancient (or possibly future) supercivilization which constructed a mystical ladder to connect together the material and spiritual realms: during the cataclysm which followed, two competing factions ascended into virtual godhood as the gnostic Exarchs who now may rule the world (or not, since their existence is more or less beyond human understanding) and the possibly more benevolent Oracles who oppose them, and Earth itself was sundered away from the Supernal Realms of higher reality. Mages are now scholars who have learned to reach across the Abyss and call down the laws of those lost realms into the Fallen World, not cultural heroes fighting for their paradigms and perspectives. There's a power-hungry conspiracy called the Seers of the Throne which professes to serve the Exarchs, but no Technocracy. In short, the new mages bear a far greater resemblance to traditional wizards than the old ones ever did. Whichever version you prefer comes down to a matter of personal taste, of course.
Haven't tried any of the new ones yet but I'm sure they are fun also
I've come up with another question for the collected braintrust. I see how you hit in the game but the damage seems to kinda throw me. For example I have my character 3 dots in strength and 3 dots in brawl. This gives me a colective 6 dice in my attack pool. So how much damage do I do to the poor bugger I just sucker punched?
You roll your 6 d10, he rolls his 4 d10. Every 1 is a botch, every 10 is a critical success, which means you get a reroll. Usually the difficulty threshold is 6 or so, so we'll say this is a regular fight, meaning a roll of 2-5 is a failure and 6-10 is a success.
You roll your dice. You get 3, 9, 3, 6, 1, 8. That's three success and one botch, which takes away a success, so you have two successes total. But he rolls 2, 8, 10, 2. That's two successes by itself, which is enough to dodge you, since tie goes to defendant. However, he got a 10, so he rolls to see if he got another success. He gets a seven, which another success. If you keep rolling tens, you keep rolling them. You don't botch on crits, so even if you roll a 10 followed by a 1, it's just a regular success. But anyway, he's got one more success than you, and his player has described his dodge as running away from you, which he has done successfully, but only by a bit.
Then the Storyteller says you have to chase him to try pounding on him, so you roll your Dex + Athletics versus his Dex + Athletics to see if you can catch up. Your Dex is 3 but you have 0 Athletics, so you're rolling 3 dice versus his 4, and he's got a one success lead on you. You dice off a couple more times, and the Storyteller rules that the little punk gets to his car in time to drive off. Depending on what happens with the dice, he's either gotten away, or it's his Dex + Drive versus your Strength + Athletics as you've jumped on the roof rack and he's trying to drive to shake you off. You've probably got a higher difficulty than he does, however, as its easier to drive a car with someone on the roof than to balance on the roof of a moving car.
Of course if he shakes you off, he may roll his Dex + Drive + Car versus your Dex + Athletics to run you over. Weapons, such as cars and guns, give you extra dice for your pool.
At least that's how I remember it. Been a while since I've played, but it's easy to get the hang of. Very cinematic and good for changing gears.
Right, about those fisticuffs... If you're using the latest rules from The World of Darkness, strictly speaking you won't be rolling to hit, but to harm. In close combat the target's Defense rating (equal to either his Dexterity or Wits, whichever is lower of the two), along with the value of any worn armor and possible other penalties due to the current circumstances, is deducted directly from your attack pool, and for each resulting success you then manage to deal one point of damage. In the case of brawling with your bare hands, that's specifically bashing damage, which will first render the target unconscious before any further injuries become lethal. Unlike in the oWoD, this is all handled through a single roll: everything is far more streamlined than in the old games. So if you attack with Strength + Brawl, by default your successes indicate how much Health the target loses, which means that your PC's strength is already factored into the result (and you can also gain equipment bonus dice from, say, wearing brass knuckles). You can complicate things slightly through fighting styles and specific maneuvers, but that's it in a nutshell.
For that matter, ranged combat works in much the same fashion, except that usually the target's Defense doesn't apply while armor still does. The same is also true if the target is surprised or somehow incapable of actively defending himself (tied up, for instance, or knocked out). Choosing to do nothing more than dodge any anticipated attacks and possibly move around will double Defense until your next turn. A point of Willpower can be spent to increase Defense against any single oncoming attack by two, as well.
Oh, and since you asked about armor, I could refer you to the small chart on page 170. Each type of armor has protection ratings against general and ballistic attacks, a minimum Strength required to wear it without suffering penalties to Brawl and Weaponry, Defense and Speed penalties imposed on the wearer as the armor weighs them down, and a purchase cost represented by a minimum value in the Resources Merit. For example, a typical flak jacket grants two points of protection against most attacks and three against firearms, requires Strength 1, reduces Defense by one but doesn't affect Speed, and is easily available to characters with Resources 2. It's also bulletproof, meaning that lethal damage from firearms is reduced into bashing instead. (An attacker who knows about the jacket could aim for the head, of course, but that imposes a -3 penalty of its own.)
So if I'm understanding this right the number of sucesses left over after you get past the whole defense what not is what damage your character actually does.
Yes. From the combat summary on the page 154 of The World of Darkness:
"Unarmed close combat: Strength + Brawl, minus target's Defense and armor
Armed close combat: Strength + Weaponry, minus target's Defense and armor
Ranged combat (guns and bows): Dexterity + Firearms, minus target's armor
Ranged combat (thrown weapons): Dexterity + Athletics, minus target's Defense and armor
Add bonus dice based on weapon used or effect performed, and then subtract penalties for circumstance conditions. Roll your remaining pool. Each success equates to a Health point of damage inflicted, the type of which is determined by the nature of the attack."
Incidentally, you can try to attack with just a chance die even if your attack pool is reduced to zero.
Okay two people have their characters selected. Ones a Vampire (daeva(sp?) Lancea sectum) and the otehers a Changeling(ogre, Summer court.) is there anything that I should worry about other than the vamps nap time thing.
Well, first of all you'll want a reason why those two would be hanging out together. Most changelings suffer from serious trust issues even among their own kind and generally tend to view vampires as blood-sucking predators who might well threaten their families and loved ones. Most vampires, on the other hand, aren't really in a position to know that changelings even exist as anything other than a vague rumour, since the Mask's illusion of normality conceals all fae creatures from other supernatural beings as well as common mortals. But an Ogre isn't a bad choice as seemings go, and there's some common ground: sometimes they've been known to eat people too, and at least the sight of them doesn't send the leech running away in panic like a Fireheart Elemental would.
I'd suggest that just to make life easier, the Ogre should establish a pledge of alliance with the PCs and also use the same magical pact to ensorcell the Daeva, so that the vampire can then see past the Mask and recognize the fae for what they are. Otherwise, as Rites of Spring puts it, "Vampires using the Auspex Discipline can pierce the Mask by succeeding on an opposed roll of Wits + Auspex versus the changeling’s Resolve + Wyrd. The vampire must be actively using Heightened Senses or Aura Perception to make this roll, which is reflexive for both parties." (And as with all supernatural attempts to penetrate the Mask, the vampire suffers a flat -3 penalty to the roll.) Vampires without Auspex will never see changelings as anything other than ordinary people, unless the changelings deliberately decide to reveal their true faces first.
Oh, and note that as a Summer Courtier, that Ogre may learn to invoke the Contracts of Eternal Summer, many of which manipulate sunlight in various ways. The less powerful clauses will in all likelihood merely scare the undead, but Eternal Summer 5, called "The Lord's Dread Gaze", will allow a changeling to fry vampires just by looking at them as lances of burning sunlight stream from his eyes.
Seriously though I do have another non D&D related question. This one pertaining to hunter the vigil. I want to know how a hunter character would match with a mash up group (Vamp, Changeling, Werewolf) would it be weaker , on par or not even able to work with these guys other than as a vilan.
Lets see how my necromancy skills work!
Yah know its allways fun to raise a thread from the dead.
Seriously though I do have another non D&D related question. This one pertaining to hunter the vigil. I want to know how a hunter character would match with a mash up group (Vamp, Changeling, Werewolf) would it be weaker , on par or not even able to work with these guys other than as a vilan.
Lets see how my necromancy skills work!
I've only leafed through the new Hunter book, so others can correct me if I'm wrong, but here goes.
An individual Hunter would probably get his butt kicked by a vampire or werewolf or whatever. Hunters may have some minor supernatural powers, but nothing quite on par with the truly supernatural characters.
However, Hunters tend to work in groups, so compensate for lack of power with superior numbers.
Also, Hunter: The Vigil introduces "tactics" - basically special moves and skills that Hunters can use to take down supernaturals.
Also, some Hunters may use weapons and other technology to even the playing field.
Hope that helps.
I love the oWOD books. I haven't had the chance to flip through any of the newer ones, but they seem pretty cool from what I have heard on the web. I am even thinking about finding a copy of the Hunter: the Reckoning book to give that a try.
In response to the original post, I have found that the oWOD games are more modern style than fantasy style roleplaying. The system is different than D&D (in any of it's incarnations), but they are fun none the less.
Another thing to remember when playing
It's also a good investigative game. One could say it's Call of Cthulhu IN SPAAACE! Only more GRIMDARK.
It has hillarious Crit charts.