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| #1ZappyDec 14, 2011 23:41:15 | In several discussions the subject of random encounters has come up. Generally it is as a complaint that it can’t be done in 4E. My question is why? My understanding of running for previous editions is but I have looked at the DMG’s. It is my understanding that the way they worked was first you rolled if there was or wasn% EDIT: I'm at work with a lousy internet connection. Unfortuanately about 3/4 of this post got lost in the internet. I'll try to get it back up. |
| #2blackknight1239Dec 15, 2011 0:56:12 | I'm honestly not sure. While I don't see the point of truely random encounters, I do design some basic encounters that I might use that night, maybe throw in a interesting peace of terrain, plop it down on a section of map I haven't used, and bam. Encounter. Of course, I rarely have a problem with keeping my players on the Invisible Railroad, so that's all good. |
| #3DuskweaverDec 15, 2011 1:20:01 | What do you mean by a "random encounter"? If you're exploring an ancient ruin filled with undead and you suddenly run into a bunch of human bandits, that's either a specific pre-planned plot point ("why are these guys here?") or it's the result of a lazy DM just throwing something in rather than actually coming up with an encounter appropriate to the location. Rolling on random tables for encounters is a mark of very bad DMing, IMO. But if you're actually talking about spontaneous encounters, where the DM has to put something together quickly because his players have gone somewhere unexpected, then 4e is by far the easiest (and quickest) edition to build those for IMO. It takes literally a minute or two to put together an encounter of just the right level of challenge, with thematically appropriate monsters, and the monsters' tactics can even be made to fit together easily thanks to them being given clearly defined roles (e.g. "I need two artillery up on the roof, two soldiers behind those barrels, and the rest can be minions"). Also, 4e monster statblocks are clear enough, and their powers generally simple enough, that I can run an encounter "from cold", without having to read and try to memorise what the monsters can do. |
| #4tehsquirrelyDec 15, 2011 1:34:42 | I think just the opposite is true. 4th probably has the easiest time handling random encounters. The monster level system gives an actually ACCURATE portrayal of a monsters difficulty and the rule of thumb that one monster of PC level is = one PC for a good encounter is usually about right (adjust to your partys min-max ability). Whereas previous editions things like CR were guidelines as best, and just pointless numbers at worst. Plus 4th has WAAAAAY more monsters that can be thematically fit together statted out, like orcs. In 3.5, other than adventures maybe, the only orc that existing until like MM5 was a simple level 1 orc warrior (1/3 CR), hardly enough to make an orc scouting party out of, let alone a whole village. Heres how I have seen it done, and I'd do it. Make about 20 encounters, from parties level -2 up to party level +2 (so there more variability). Just make them simple, like maybe 3 of this kind of orc and 2 of that kind, or a solo or something. Put them on a table and list then 1-20. When the party is off exploring roll a d20 at some point and just say something like on a 15 or higher theres a random encounter, and adjust this roll to fit where they are travelling through. A well patrolled trade roll? make it 18+. The dark demenses of an enchanted forest? Better up the ante to 12+. Then if theres an encounter roll a d20 again and run the encounter from that list you made earlier. It's really quite simple. I did it for a darksun game (someone had made a table like this going from level 1 to 4 I think)and it worked great. |
| #5ZappyDec 15, 2011 1:56:11 | Sorry about the hacked post. My original post made more sense. I’m speaking of the random encounter tables in 2nd edition mostly: As I understand it from the 2nd DMG you rolled first to see if there was or wasn’t an encounter, then rolled to see what creature type made up the encounter. At this point it would seem to me to need some DM intervention. Otherwise how would you prevent a TPK or some other negative? Since some DM intervention for level appropriateness and taste happened even then what is it that is stopping those of you looking for it to creating multiple encounters at various levels around the party then rolling to decide which one happens. Specifically for a level 5 party create enconters at levels 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 the roll a d8 to see which to do. If you don’t like the above range how about a d6 and drop 2 & 3? If it’s creating the encounters that you think is what’s not random then why can’t you open to the creatures by level table pick a level and roll off of that using the preset encoutners that are listed for each creature? I just don’t understand the concept of the benefit of random encounters. If that is what you are interested in why are you having so much trouble doing it in 4E? If my above examples aren’t random enough then please explain what you want from a random encounter. |
| #6guest1458177341Dec 15, 2011 2:57:02 | God the random encounter table... |
| #7ChimpadinDec 15, 2011 3:07:59 | In a long adventure I ususally make a up 2-3 stand-alone encounters, usually with a bit of map, for in case something goes wrong, and if necessary I wheel one out. I've only had to do it once though. I see no need for random encounters in normal play. What the DM or designer has put in fits much better into the adventure. Most of the time my spare encounters are there in case the players decide to take an extended rest when they don't need to. |
| #8jonathan_sicariDec 15, 2011 3:12:26 | I stopped doing random encounters in 2nd ED. around my first long term campaign start. What I do occaisonally have (in all my games) is the seemingly random encounter. The seemingly random encounter is one that makes sense based on the location of the players that may have a narrative or mechanical reason (try burn some resources from the party or foreshadow a later plot thread) that I throw in for diversity (are my players getting bored fighting the orcs and goblins that are raiding the local farms? well now they encounter their fierce rivals, the gnoll tribe living at the opposite end of the mountain range bordering the local farmland). I have felt for a long time (since 1988 at least) that truly random encounters are worthless except for what another poster recently referred to as 'dice fetishism'. |
| #9TheBozzDec 15, 2011 3:28:41 | Zappy I'm not really understanding your thread. Your OP makes it seem like you want to run random encounters in your group, but heard it was really difficult to run random encounters in 4e. Your second post makes it seem like this whole thread was just about telling others if they want to use random encounters it is completely an option for 4e. I personally agree with the second, but understand why people find it difficult. Basically in 4e every encounter seems like it should be important, because otherwise why are you wasting about an hour of play time to have it (average I know some groups take 30 mins some take 3 hours or more). This is the arguement of why you can't have random encounters. Also if you use your plan of encounters for a level 5 party and end up with a random encounter of level +4 by making a level 9 encounter that is random. Is a random encounter really a good way to possibly create a TPK. In my groups you can generally tell when you are fighting a thematically important and therefore hard encounter. A random encounter would have no reason to exist according to the party. When they are on their way to go slay the dragon and boom this random encounter happens, the party is going to be trying to be stingy with daily powers. If the party waits too long before realizing just how tough an unimportant fight is that they ran into. They could have an ally or two dead already. I wouldn't really make a random encounter any higher than level +1 or maybe level +2 tops. Those should be battles the party is expected to overcome. Level +4 is basically saved for the boss fight or maybe his savage watchdog. Thats my take on it anyway. I don't really use random encounters, but I do use loads of optional encounters. In the end I try to make sure I know what level the group will be when it reaches a certain fight though. I don't like to scale my boss encounters. I feel it cheapens them if they are always what I can expect the party to overcome. |
| #10Madfox11Dec 15, 2011 4:06:20 | I think the main argument against the ability to use random encounters in 4e is not that it is impossible perse, but rather that it is impractical. Game mechanically there is no difference between a random and a planned encounter. The argument is that in 4e a typical fight lasts 1 hour and random fights should not take up much time or resources. In addition, PCs level every 9 encounters in 4e, making random encounters also one quicker step towards leveling. Combined, these people argue that random encounters are impossible in 4e. Personally I think truly random encounters never worked well in any edition, but I am a storyteller at heart - fights will always play a secondary (but often important) role to the story. Having said that, recently I did try out a couple of very easy fights in 4e (eg two green slimes) to impress on the PCs the dangers of a monster infested ruin. It were a couple of very quick and fun fights that worked suprisingly well. They were planned in advance, with me selecting monsters and terrain that were quick to set up, interesting to use and made a point. In that regards it was not truely random, but I could have used a table to let the dice when and what to use (which is how my 'random' encounters have been in previous editions as well). So it is most certainly possible in 4e. It might require a bit more work, although even that is debatable. |
| #11nelphineDec 15, 2011 4:52:17 | As I (somewhat) started the debate over in the thread on saving the core combat system I will point you to post 112 of that thread to explain why I have always and will always think that random encounters are extremely important - and I will add that yes, rolling for a completely arbitrary monster at random is not what I mean (although you can easily make that work, and it's loads of fun to try to explain why those Rakshasa appeared in a campaign that has nothing to do with them - because there always is a reason, even if you only think of it afterwards). Random encounter = unexpected encounter based on what the DM planned, but completely reasonable based on the story that the players put forward. (As a side note, I have ran many many sessions that were over 12 hours in length, and my combats typically last between 30 minutes and 2 hours - so that may bias me as to why unplanned things occur so frequently. I've always always looked to the players to help decide what is going on, and I'll always continue to do that.) My problem in 4e comes when you start playing with a reasonably optimized group, where a random combat encounter occurs, and yet for whatever reason it is obvious that the combat should be a challenging one. If the monsters are pre-picked due to storyline reasons (and to a lesser extent their powers/abilities will be pre-picked as well, for instance, if the random encounter deals with a number of giants wielding giant swords, then we would expect them to have a number of abilities based on those swords, even if they might have a few hidden magical/ranged abilities), then in order to actually present a challenging/interesting combat, I find that 4e has the greatest need to have a good terrain/map set-up. And due to various persnickety PC powers, I find creating a good map/terrain to be far more difficult than in previous editions. My conclusion: Creating random encounters, and populating them with monsters or traps is not a problem, as explained by other people in this thread. Creating a random but interesting map is the difficult part, and this is where 4e really falls down, as I have argued in the other thread. |
| #12Plaguescarred1Dec 15, 2011 5:25:13 | Random Encounter works like a charm for 4E too and can actually be fun for the DM, having a little element of surprise. Make a short list, may be 8-12 list of random encoutners or wandering monsters, likely to be found in the local area where the PC are currently and ranging levels -3 up to +3. Can be Trap and Hazards, Monsters NPC that endup with combat or Skill Challenge etc.. This list need to be maintained tightly according to the PC's level and location. Periodcally roll for random encounter wanderig monsters. This can be decided when you feel the moment is right or determined randomly too with pourcentage for exemple (ex. 30% every hour) I will usually let those encounter end quicker, by having monsters below 1/4 HP retreat if simply hunting for food etc.. I strongly suggest not using random encounter/wandering monsters with published adventures though, as too many can alter the XP progression established. |
| #13frothsofDec 15, 2011 6:07:08 | random encounters can work great but remember you are rolling for 'wandering monsters'. if used correctly this adds flavor and doesnt necessarily lead to combat in basic/expert d&d movement as you might recall was a little different. there was the combat round but also a unit of time called a 'turn'; this is 10 minutes. your speed in an encounter, say you have speed 6 on your pc, that is 1/3 of your 'exploration speed', or how far you can go in a dungeon in a turn (10 minutes). this assumes you are kind of being cautious and 'mapping' where you are at. so, say for a 4e pc your exploration speed is 3*6 or 18 squares any encounter is assumed to take a turn even if it doesnt-the rest is made up by the rest or looking for treasure or what have you. any time you disable a trap, that takes a turn. stop to work on a stuck door, takes a turn etc. and anytime you have a pc move 18 sqrs thru a dungeon it has taken a turn. in basic, you had to rest once every 5 turns, or 10 minutes of every hour then you say ok, every so many turns, say 3 or 4, i will roll for wandering monsters. roll a d6, and a 1 (or a 2 if you want more to happen) means they encounter wandering monsters. now remember in old editions a monster was really just a blanket term for anything you came across; in 4e it is more accurate to say 'roll for random creatures'. thus you can have memorable random 'encounters' that dont all have to be combat based. here is an example table roll for wandering creatures once every 3 turns a roll of 1 on a 1d6 indicates an encounter. then roll a d8. if you roll the same thing twice, reroll it 1. 3-8 Eladrin explorers looking for a relic 2. 5-10 Gnomes carrying the carcass of a large creature 3. A sleeping (snoring) adventurer lying in the hallway 4. A large swarm of bats flies by 5. 2-12 giant rats feeding on dead bodies; they scatter when seen 6. A woman tied up in a corner with a gag over her mouth 7. Offal covered in 5-10 rot grubs 8. 3-11 Monks praying to a symbol if you really want to kick it old school and test your ability as a dm to improvise you can roll the reactions of intelligent creatures randomly roll a d6 1. run from the pcs/scared 2. hostile 3. indifferent 4. friendly 5. beg the pcs for help 6. act friendly and ask to join pcs then betray them first chance things like this are very cool imo |
| #14Kalex_the_OmenDec 15, 2011 8:07:00 | I think random encounters can work fine, and several published WotC 4e modules make use of them. Thunderspire Laybrinth pops to mind, but all of the more sandbox type adventures have them. In 4e they are mostly useful when characters bypass planned encounters. In the 4e modules they are no longer rolled on a table, but each of the modules I am thinking of have several 1 paragraph encounters and the text tells the DM to throw them in to get the party back on track if they are dallying, or if they have bypassed some encounters and thus have missed some XP and treasure. |
| #15GarthanosDec 15, 2011 8:14:49 | God the random encounter table... They were done poorly in the past... but this may be something fixable. |