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RPG with realistic defenses?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
kossorii
Aug 19, 2010 16:13:42 I wanted to know if anyone knew a pen and paper rpg system that had a more realistic defense system than D&D 4e.

I have heard of games where instead of having an AC you dodge or parry attacks and see if your armor or toughness prevents damage. This kind of system makes more sense to me. I know the Wotc Starwars game is kind of like this but I wanted to know if there was a fantasy game like this. To illustrate what kind of system I'm looking for I will give a sample scenario.

Say a monster rolls to hit you with a physical attack with a d20 + his bonuses and succeeds (maybe he rolled a 10 and added 8 which beat your reflex of 17). Now that he has hit you, you see if his damage has penetrated your tougness. So he has hit for 2 damage, but you have plate armor that negates 4, so his attack does nothing.

I know some people might say this is just adding an extra step since AC in D&D is like a combination of toughness and reflex or dodging. However, you remove an element of combat by doing this. What if I want to create a dwarf who is slow and easily hit but who can take hits without being affected at all? Or what if perhaps I get hit by an arrow but I have chainmail to prevent it from doing major damage to me? Also, how can I explain a gaint stone golem being hurt by me throwing a glass bottle or wood barrel at it? Or another similair situation, a goblin punching someone in full plate armor and still being able to do 1 damage to send a character into being bloodied.

Another thing that bothers me the ablility to dodge a blast or burst attack that occupies 9 squares while still being able to remain in those squares. Are there any games even close to fixing one of these things mentioned above?
#2
MarkAtkinson
Aug 19, 2010 16:58:02 Back in the mid 80's I played the Dragon Warrior's RPG and IMO it had a more realistic combat system.

All characters and monsters had several combat stats, which were - ATTACK, DEFENCE, EVASION and MAGICAL DEFENCE and casters also had a MAGICAL ATTACK score.

To determine whether your attack suceeded you subtracted your opponents DEFENCE score from your ATTACK score and the figure this created was the number you had to roll under on d20. If this roll suceeded you then needed to find out if the attack got past your opponents armour. All armour had a value between 1 and 5 and every weapon had a die type it used to make an ARMOUR BYPASS ROLL.

Describing that system now sounds weird to me, probably because I've been playing a game with AC for 20+ years, but I have to admit at the time I enjoyed playing it more than Basic/1st ed D&D.

#3
death_isthe_begining
Aug 20, 2010 15:34:30
Say a monster rolls to hit you with a physical attack with a d20 + his bonuses and succeeds (maybe he rolled a 10 and added 8 which beat your reflex of 17). Now that he has hit you, you see if his damage has penetrated your tougness. So he has hit for 2 damage, but you have plate armor that negates 4, so his attack does nothing.

This sounds like the Armor as Damage Reduction variant (the variant is in Unearthed Arcana) for 3.5.

I know some people might say this is just adding an extra step since AC in D&D is like a combination of toughness and reflex or dodging. However, you remove an element of combat by doing this. What if I want to create a dwarf who is slow and easily hit but who can take hits without being affected at all? Or what if perhaps I get hit by an arrow but I have chainmail to prevent it from doing major damage to me? Also, how can I explain a gaint stone golem being hurt by me throwing a glass bottle or wood barrel at it? Or another similair situation, a goblin punching someone in full plate armor and still being able to do 1 damage to send a character into being bloodied.

In 3.5 you could get DR or Damage Reduction. In 3.5 throwing a glass bottle at a stone golem would do no damage unless the thrower had incredible strength (a glass bottle would probably only do 1d6 pierceing damage a stone golem has DR 10/Adamantine).

Another thing that bothers me the ablility to dodge a blast or burst attack that occupies 9 squares while still being able to remain in those squares. Are there any games even close to fixing one of these things mentioned above?

It easier if if you think of it not filling the whole square, just most of the square leaving just barely enough room to dodge it.
#4
eldrith_hawkflight
Sep 20, 2010 22:17:09 Look in to Warhammer Fantasy RPG 2nd Edition, it sounds like it has what you want. It's a very nice system (though the world is a little bleak). You have armour & toughness that are like DR & you can parry & dodge attacks, I'm foggy on magic area of effects.
#5
Rolemancer
Sep 21, 2010 15:33:47 I agree with Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, either 1st or 2nd editions, but those are both out of print. I cannot speak about Warhammer 3rd edition as I have not played it yet.

One Fantasy RPG that is in print and is a recent release is RuneQuest II by Mongoose Publishing.

It sounds like you might enjoy it for the combat features you seem to be looking for.

Examples:

Combat Actions are used when attacking, defending, changing engagement distance, casting spells and so on.

There are critical successes and fumbles.

Some things they can do would be to Attack, Cast Spell, Change Distance, Change Stance, Charge, Delay, Do Nothing, Evade, Mount / Dismount, Move, Outmanoeuvre, Parry, Ready Weapon.

There are variables such as armour worn, weapon size, reach and so forth.

There are offensive and defensive combat manoeuvres such as:

Offensive

Bash Opponent
Bleed
Bypass Armour
Bypass Parry
Change Range
Choose Location
Damage Weapon
Disarm Opponent
Grip
Impale
Maximise Damage
Stun Location
Sunder
Tangle
Trip Opponent

Defensive

Blind Opponent
Change Range
Damage Weapon
Disarm Opponent
Enhance Parry
Overextend Opponent
Pin Weapon
Redirect Blow
Regain Footing
Riposte
Slip Free
Stand Fast
Take Weapon
Trip Opponent

While some of these are both offensive and defensive, others are also stackable in order to try to beat your opponent, for example you could Enhance Parry twice if you have enough Combat Actions to spend on it on your turn.

Cover, Evading, Knockback, Leaping, Mounted Combat, Multiple Opponents, Pulled Blows, Surprise, Unarmed Combat, Closing, Disengaging, Aiming, Firing on the Move, etc. are also covered in the combat mechanics.

#6
Finarvyn
Oct 11, 2010 17:08:20 I think that there is a scale of realism versus complexity and there are many games at each step of the scale. You can find complex games like RoleMaster or simple games like Amber Diceless and all have their good and bad points.

The thing about D&D is that the combat system isn't "unrealistic" as much as it is "abstracted." In other words, D&D is designed to follow the flow of combat a lot more than each individual thrust and parry.

If you want to play a thrust-and-parry game system, simply take your game of choice (D&D or other) and insert a defensive option for a parry or a dodge. What it will do is allow for each die roll to represent an individual weapon strike, each strike can be defended in some manner, and the net result is that battles will last a lot longer. You might also tweak the number of attacks per turn to balance the fact that fewer weapon strikes will hit, compared to the number of spell strikes or the rate that other actions will occur. That probably would be needed in order to preserve balance within the game system.

On the other hand, you can make spellcasting more "realistic" if you allow more spell-counterspell activity (e.g. a "spell parry" or "spell dodge" effect). You might need to adjust spell casting rate as well, or perhaps the spell and weapon effects will balance again. I'd have to experiment a little.

It doesn't really take a whole new game system in order to make D&D more realistic.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 kossorii Aug 19, 2010 16:13:42	I wanted to know if anyone knew a pen and paper rpg system that had a more realistic defense system than D&D 4e. I have heard of games where instead of having an AC you dodge or parry attacks and see if your armor or toughness prevents damage. This kind of system makes more sense to me. I know the Wotc Starwars game is kind of like this but I wanted to know if there was a fantasy game like this. To illustrate what kind of system I'm looking for I will give a sample scenario. Say a monster rolls to hit you with a physical attack with a d20 + his bonuses and succeeds (maybe he rolled a 10 and added 8 which beat your reflex of 17). Now that he has hit you, you see if his damage has penetrated your tougness. So he has hit for 2 damage, but you have plate armor that negates 4, so his attack does nothing. I know some people might say this is just adding an extra step since AC in D&D is like a combination of toughness and reflex or dodging. However, you remove an element of combat by doing this. What if I want to create a dwarf who is slow and easily hit but who can take hits without being affected at all? Or what if perhaps I get hit by an arrow but I have chainmail to prevent it from doing major damage to me? Also, how can I explain a gaint stone golem being hurt by me throwing a glass bottle or wood barrel at it? Or another similair situation, a goblin punching someone in full plate armor and still being able to do 1 damage to send a character into being bloodied. Another thing that bothers me the ablility to dodge a blast or burst attack that occupies 9 squares while still being able to remain in those squares. Are there any games even close to fixing one of these things mentioned above?
#2 MarkAtkinson Aug 19, 2010 16:58:02	Back in the mid 80's I played the Dragon Warrior's RPG and IMO it had a more realistic combat system. All characters and monsters had several combat stats, which were - ATTACK, DEFENCE, EVASION and MAGICAL DEFENCE and casters also had a MAGICAL ATTACK score. To determine whether your attack suceeded you subtracted your opponents DEFENCE score from your ATTACK score and the figure this created was the number you had to roll under on d20. If this roll suceeded you then needed to find out if the attack got past your opponents armour. All armour had a value between 1 and 5 and every weapon had a die type it used to make an ARMOUR BYPASS ROLL. Describing that system now sounds weird to me, probably because I've been playing a game with AC for 20+ years, but I have to admit at the time I enjoyed playing it more than Basic/1st ed D&D.
#3 death_isthe_begining Aug 20, 2010 15:34:30	Say a monster rolls to hit you with a physical attack with a d20 + his bonuses and succeeds (maybe he rolled a 10 and added 8 which beat your reflex of 17). Now that he has hit you, you see if his damage has penetrated your tougness. So he has hit for 2 damage, but you have plate armor that negates 4, so his attack does nothing. This sounds like the Armor as Damage Reduction variant (the variant is in Unearthed Arcana) for 3.5. I know some people might say this is just adding an extra step since AC in D&D is like a combination of toughness and reflex or dodging. However, you remove an element of combat by doing this. What if I want to create a dwarf who is slow and easily hit but who can take hits without being affected at all? Or what if perhaps I get hit by an arrow but I have chainmail to prevent it from doing major damage to me? Also, how can I explain a gaint stone golem being hurt by me throwing a glass bottle or wood barrel at it? Or another similair situation, a goblin punching someone in full plate armor and still being able to do 1 damage to send a character into being bloodied. In 3.5 you could get DR or Damage Reduction. In 3.5 throwing a glass bottle at a stone golem would do no damage unless the thrower had incredible strength (a glass bottle would probably only do 1d6 pierceing damage a stone golem has DR 10/Adamantine). Another thing that bothers me the ablility to dodge a blast or burst attack that occupies 9 squares while still being able to remain in those squares. Are there any games even close to fixing one of these things mentioned above? It easier if if you think of it not filling the whole square, just most of the square leaving just barely enough room to dodge it.
#4 eldrith_hawkflight Sep 20, 2010 22:17:09	Look in to Warhammer Fantasy RPG 2nd Edition, it sounds like it has what you want. It's a very nice system (though the world is a little bleak). You have armour & toughness that are like DR & you can parry & dodge attacks, I'm foggy on magic area of effects.
#5 Rolemancer Sep 21, 2010 15:33:47	I agree with Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, either 1st or 2nd editions, but those are both out of print. I cannot speak about Warhammer 3rd edition as I have not played it yet. One Fantasy RPG that is in print and is a recent release is RuneQuest II by Mongoose Publishing. It sounds like you might enjoy it for the combat features you seem to be looking for. Examples: Combat Actions are used when attacking, defending, changing engagement distance, casting spells and so on. There are critical successes and fumbles. Some things they can do would be to Attack, Cast Spell, Change Distance, Change Stance, Charge, Delay, Do Nothing, Evade, Mount / Dismount, Move, Outmanoeuvre, Parry, Ready Weapon. There are variables such as armour worn, weapon size, reach and so forth. There are offensive and defensive combat manoeuvres such as: Offensive Bash Opponent Bleed Bypass Armour Bypass Parry Change Range Choose Location Damage Weapon Disarm Opponent Grip Impale Maximise Damage Stun Location Sunder Tangle Trip Opponent Defensive Blind Opponent Change Range Damage Weapon Disarm Opponent Enhance Parry Overextend Opponent Pin Weapon Redirect Blow Regain Footing Riposte Slip Free Stand Fast Take Weapon Trip Opponent While some of these are both offensive and defensive, others are also stackable in order to try to beat your opponent, for example you could Enhance Parry twice if you have enough Combat Actions to spend on it on your turn. Cover, Evading, Knockback, Leaping, Mounted Combat, Multiple Opponents, Pulled Blows, Surprise, Unarmed Combat, Closing, Disengaging, Aiming, Firing on the Move, etc. are also covered in the combat mechanics.
#6 Finarvyn Oct 11, 2010 17:08:20	I think that there is a scale of realism versus complexity and there are many games at each step of the scale. You can find complex games like RoleMaster or simple games like Amber Diceless and all have their good and bad points. The thing about D&D is that the combat system isn't "unrealistic" as much as it is "abstracted." In other words, D&D is designed to follow the flow of combat a lot more than each individual thrust and parry. If you want to play a thrust-and-parry game system, simply take your game of choice (D&D or other) and insert a defensive option for a parry or a dodge. What it will do is allow for each die roll to represent an individual weapon strike, each strike can be defended in some manner, and the net result is that battles will last a lot longer. You might also tweak the number of attacks per turn to balance the fact that fewer weapon strikes will hit, compared to the number of spell strikes or the rate that other actions will occur. That probably would be needed in order to preserve balance within the game system. On the other hand, you can make spellcasting more "realistic" if you allow more spell-counterspell activity (e.g. a "spell parry" or "spell dodge" effect). You might need to adjust spell casting rate as well, or perhaps the spell and weapon effects will balance again. I'd have to experiment a little. It doesn't really take a whole new game system in order to make D&D more realistic.