The things in 4th Edition that, were they in 5th Edition, would cause you to buy 5th Edition - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

The things in 4th Edition that, were they in 5th Edition, would cause you to buy 5th Edition

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
oprah_windfury
Oct 19, 2011 0:29:00 In light of the Legends and Lore article and the subsequent thread, I'm just going to make this super duper simple and easy. Hypthetically, you, as a consumer, win a magic lottery ticket from a genie (or...whatever), and you get to save one or two features of 4th Edition that will be preserved (or at least ported) to 5th Edition. Everything you don't choose could potentially be on the chopping block. What do you pick?

The first thing I would preserve is racial powers. 4e is the first edition of D&D that I've played where an Elf Fighter and a Dwarf Fighter with identical feats (or proficiencies or powers or whathaveyou) actually play differently at the table beyond level 4 or so. The Elf Fighter, just by being an Elf, can do things the Dwarf Fighter can't, and vise versa.

The other big one is Themes. Adding in a subclass at level 1 from a list of concepts that are either too narrow or too broad to be classes in their own right adds a great deal of mechanical depth to characters, as well as the opportunity for wonderful roleplaying opportunities. What would a Scholar Fighter act like? An Ordained Priest Psion? A Devil's Pawn Paladin? A Gladiator Bladesinger? Beyond giving players extra mechanical options, it opens up the door for all sorts of interesting backstories and character hooks.
#2
ritorix
Oct 19, 2011 0:44:16 On the DM side of the house, I would keep the monster and encounter design paradigm. Simple monster statblocks, relativity of monster power vs player level, minion/normal/elite/solo, adding up encounter xp total vs party level to determine difficulty, etc. I have DM'ed a ton, and the whole thing just really works and was a huge improvement over what came before.

For the players, I would keep Roles as a general guide to class design. Dividing up the labor in an obvious way gives everyone a job to focus on. It prevents one player from hogging the spotlight as their character outpaces others or duplicates their entire role, something that was all too common in previous editions.

A lot of the crunch I am indifferent to. 4e has gathered a lot of bloat in a short time. Feats, AEDU, hybrids, multiclassing, paragon/epic paths, skill challenges, themes, backgrounds, ability scores, four defenses, racial ability bonuses, the magic item treadmill. There is a lot that can be discarded or improved upon.
#3
salla
Oct 19, 2011 0:46:26 1. The Powers System. Or at least something close to it; I'd rather they went to an encounter-based system and removed Daily powers and effects entirely.

2. The encounter design system, with simpler monsters and such. It makes the system a breeze to prep for.
#4
Elemental_Elf
Oct 19, 2011 0:55:59 1. Encounter design: 4E made the design of encounters very simple and fun. We don't have to look up obtuse challenge ratings and rely on "eye balling it" like we had to in 3.x. I can look at my XP Budget and slap together a balanced, enjoyable encounter on the fly.

2. Monster Stat Blocks: 4E is the only edition of the game where I can whip a dragon out and run him straight from the Monster Manual. Not only is this key to lessening the burden of DMing but it also allows a DM to throw more of those cool, iconic monsters out, especially on the fly. Additionally, the stat block system truly makes each monster unique and therefore, more engaging to battle on the player's side. This should be kept at all costs.

3. The end of the 10 minute work day: A focus on At-Will, Encounter and Daily powers eliminated one of the biggest problems plaguing older editions - the 10 minute work day - i.e. The PC's wake up, PCs fight a hard encounter, Spellcasters are drained of spells, party goes to bed.
#5
DarkSphinx
Oct 19, 2011 1:05:50 Themes, Themes, and Themes. Here's why:

Themes are a great way to differentiate between campaign settings, as exemplified by the Dark Sun and Neverwinter settings.

Themes are the perfect venue for DMs to put their personal stamp on their own game worlds.

Themes are cool.

In a future edition, I would love to see a Dungeon Master's Guide released initially, which partly concentrates on "world-building" including using Themes to define the setting. And the Dungeons & Dragons Insider subscription would give the subscriber access to resources such as Themes from the various campaign settings, as examples, or to use in an actual Eberron, Dark Sun, or Neverwinter (etcetera) campaign.

-DS
#6
greatfrito
Oct 19, 2011 1:42:17 "One or two things" wouldn't be sufficient for me to buy a 5th edition - but I can list a few things that are necessary for me to consider buying a 5th edition.

1. Encounter Design
Honestly, I include monsters in this - stats, design, format - all of it. This was one of the biggest things that got me back to D&D, and one of my most significant complaints about other d20 games. Without this - or something very, very similar - I'm probably not going to bother.

2. Equal-Opportunity Race/Class Design
The other thing that got me back in was the parallel design for races and classes - particularly classes. I'm not just talking about the balance aspect (though that's a spectacular goal as well - even if it's never perfect), but about having all of the classes on the same system. I'll even stretch that to include the Essentials stuff. This is what caught my eye - and my imagination - with 4e (StarWars:Saga Edition for the most part, as well), and I'd hate to see it go. Only having to learn one system - and then the slight variations on that system based on your particular choices - is one of the primary draws for me. It all helps with the "balance" thing too (makes it easier).

Seems good enough to leave it like that, even if I could add a few more.
#7
Tony_Vargas
Oct 19, 2011 2:31:01
you get to save one or two features of 4th Edition that will be preserved (or at least ported) to 5th Edition. Everything you don't choose could potentially be on the chopping block. What do you pick?

The AEDU class structure & level progression, including classes having one Source and one consistent primary role. Monster types and levels, especially, monsters being 'built' entirely differently from PCs.

If you meant more specific bits: ...hmm... The Warlord. Healing Surges.

#8
Novacat
Oct 19, 2011 2:36:03
1. The Powers System. Or at least something close to it; I'd rather they went to an encounter-based system and removed Daily powers and effects entirely.

2. The encounter design system, with simpler monsters and such. It makes the system a breeze to prep for.

I was going to make my own post, but then I saw this, so I don't have to.
#9
pluisjen
Oct 19, 2011 2:51:53 A focus on the cinematic rather then the simulationist and a focus on being the hero and his story instead of the long list of guys who for some strange reason keep doing each other's quests even though they never live long enough to get to know each other.

Everything else can go as far as I'm concerned, assuming they can come up with something equally good or better.
#10
frothsof
Oct 19, 2011 5:46:33 nothing would make me buy 5th edition
#11
Scottevil912
Oct 19, 2011 6:34:24 I have no plans to purchase 5th edition unless it is more or less easily compatible with one of the previous editions (Preferably 4e).

It would basically have to be 4e with the math fixes put into place, maybe a bit more fluff in powers so they are more forward in their application outside of combat for those players who need it (to make my life as a DM a little easier).
#12
igniz
Oct 19, 2011 6:37:08 I'd partially agree with frostof, nothing will make me buy 5e.

Why would I bother with 5e? What is 5e offering me?

There's nothing I'd want to keep, let 5e be what it wants to be. If it's better I'll go for it, if it isn't why would I ever bother?
#13
kev777
Oct 19, 2011 10:15:23 If you use the DDI tools you'll be forced to move to 5th since the 4th edition tools will cease to be supported.

#14
frothsof
Oct 19, 2011 10:17:48
If you use the DDI tools you'll be forced to move to 5th since the 4th edition tools will cease to be supported.

i dont know if that will happen. just stop updating them and keep them in a subscription. cant cost them much
#15
WotC_Trevor
Oct 19, 2011 10:29:51 I'm deleting the posts that are off-topic or somewhat inflamatory. If you want to criticize 4E, and can do so constructively and respectfully, please do so in another thread.
#16
GMforPowergamers
Oct 19, 2011 10:38:46 I want the multi and hybrid class rules more intergrated and fixed, but mostly remian. (I would say remove current power swap feats, and make 1 feat that at level 6 lets you swap 1 of each type)

I want to see themes, but more intergrated at the heroic levels.

I want to keep Paragon paths and Epic Destnies but with EDs being slightly redesigned

I want to see PHB3and Essentials stlye where things are seprate but similar. I have no probelm with psionics having alot of at wills and power points, and slayers have no dailys and stances. But from the begining so that every power source plays a little diffrent, and each class in the source very slightly diffrent within the source.

I want to see sup implments intergrated in with sup weapons from the begining

I want to see races grow...maybe take 1 utilite in the heroic tier (maybe 6th) and make it a race power. then at levels 2 and 10 you have theme or class...
#17
ricksouth
Oct 19, 2011 10:49:35 Really, really good adventures.
#18
AbdulAlhazred
Oct 19, 2011 10:56:54 I think we really need to keep the basic rules for character and npc construction. Not in every detail, but roughly it needs to give the results that 4e does now.

Good combat rules that work tactically. Again, not the same exact ones, but they need to work and not be either 'just wing it' nor stand there swinging while the wizard blows everything up.
#19
manion
Oct 19, 2011 11:39:33 I like the race, paragon path, epic destiny, and theme system. I view them as all part of a single system. All of these things can add new powers and features onto your character. It helps customization, it's very very fluffy, and it doesn't have nearly as many problems as multi-classing did.

I don't know what I'd pick for a number two. Anything that helps build encounters better.
#20
Steely_Dan
Oct 19, 2011 12:18:57
I'd rather they went to an encounter-based system and removed Daily powers and effects entirely.

Total, scrap that last Vancian vestige (and can cause meta-gaming).

And while I initially liked the AEDU paradigm, I became a bit disillusioned with it (the homogenisation, all classes feeling a bit like a caster etc).

I can see why they ditched it; new class, first level features, 100+ powers, rinse, repeat.

#21
Garthanos
Oct 19, 2011 13:24:25 The things it must have from 4e are huge... ie the principle design goals of 4th edtion - I mean they can adjust there approach to accomplishing them for a 5e and they can expand on the goals perhaps to include more balance in "out of combat" mechanics for example.

And it will need to be maybe 4 years in the future for me to spend on it.
#42
Krusk
Oct 20, 2011 9:51:11
Very excited for 5e, and sort of cautiously hoping monte doesn't mess it up.

Two things from 4e

d20

class based.

They could (should?) cut a lot of 4e and I would be ok, so long as it stayed fantasy based, a classed system, and d20 I'm at least planning to give it a shot.
#43
GhostStepper
Oct 20, 2011 12:17:32
please, PLEASE, can we cut this elitist crud about 'dumbed down'?

Yeah. At this point, calling 4e "dumbed down" is a joke.

I have players that are overwhelmed by having to make sense of all of their racial powers, feat powers, class powers, theme powers, and item powers. They have stuff going off every round as minor actions, standard actions, move actions and 3 different off-turn actions in the form of free and immediate actions. Meanwhile they are keeping track of being concealed and stacking their CA with the encounter long bonus granted by the warlord and 2 other unnamed bonuses...

I have sessions where some of the players are dying to go back to the "dumbed down" days of pre-4e.
#44
Istaran
Oct 20, 2011 12:41:00
1. Every class being able to contribute at every level. I'm playing in another edition game currently, and its just painful to go back to spellcasters that suck most of the day at low levels.

2. Being awesome out of the gate. Another thing thats super painful to go back to: having to wait to for your character to eventually reach the point where its mechanically fun to play.

You win, sir.
#45
Garthanos
Oct 20, 2011 13:27:11
(human is no longer the best choice for any class, it is now only a competetive choice for any class).

humans are not the best race fpr any class however and I dont like that
My game world actually supports the idea of humans being rebellious, free spirited and creative and they believe they are the children of the divine (much like on earth) and I have considered giving
humans heros a +2 charisma for a second stat bonus.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 oprah_windfury Oct 19, 2011 0:29:00	In light of the Legends and Lore article and the subsequent thread, I'm just going to make this super duper simple and easy. Hypthetically, you, as a consumer, win a magic lottery ticket from a genie (or...whatever), and you get to save one or two features of 4th Edition that will be preserved (or at least ported) to 5th Edition. Everything you don't choose could potentially be on the chopping block. What do you pick? The first thing I would preserve is racial powers. 4e is the first edition of D&D that I've played where an Elf Fighter and a Dwarf Fighter with identical feats (or proficiencies or powers or whathaveyou) actually play differently at the table beyond level 4 or so. The Elf Fighter, just by being an Elf, can do things the Dwarf Fighter can't, and vise versa. The other big one is Themes. Adding in a subclass at level 1 from a list of concepts that are either too narrow or too broad to be classes in their own right adds a great deal of mechanical depth to characters, as well as the opportunity for wonderful roleplaying opportunities. What would a Scholar Fighter act like? An Ordained Priest Psion? A Devil's Pawn Paladin? A Gladiator Bladesinger? Beyond giving players extra mechanical options, it opens up the door for all sorts of interesting backstories and character hooks.
#2 ritorix Oct 19, 2011 0:44:16	On the DM side of the house, I would keep the monster and encounter design paradigm. Simple monster statblocks, relativity of monster power vs player level, minion/normal/elite/solo, adding up encounter xp total vs party level to determine difficulty, etc. I have DM'ed a ton, and the whole thing just really works and was a huge improvement over what came before. For the players, I would keep Roles as a general guide to class design. Dividing up the labor in an obvious way gives everyone a job to focus on. It prevents one player from hogging the spotlight as their character outpaces others or duplicates their entire role, something that was all too common in previous editions. A lot of the crunch I am indifferent to. 4e has gathered a lot of bloat in a short time. Feats, AEDU, hybrids, multiclassing, paragon/epic paths, skill challenges, themes, backgrounds, ability scores, four defenses, racial ability bonuses, the magic item treadmill. There is a lot that can be discarded or improved upon.
#3 salla Oct 19, 2011 0:46:26	1. The Powers System. Or at least something close to it; I'd rather they went to an encounter-based system and removed Daily powers and effects entirely. 2. The encounter design system, with simpler monsters and such. It makes the system a breeze to prep for.
#4 Elemental_Elf Oct 19, 2011 0:55:59	1. Encounter design: 4E made the design of encounters very simple and fun. We don't have to look up obtuse challenge ratings and rely on "eye balling it" like we had to in 3.x. I can look at my XP Budget and slap together a balanced, enjoyable encounter on the fly. 2. Monster Stat Blocks: 4E is the only edition of the game where I can whip a dragon out and run him straight from the Monster Manual. Not only is this key to lessening the burden of DMing but it also allows a DM to throw more of those cool, iconic monsters out, especially on the fly. Additionally, the stat block system truly makes each monster unique and therefore, more engaging to battle on the player's side. This should be kept at all costs. 3. The end of the 10 minute work day: A focus on At-Will, Encounter and Daily powers eliminated one of the biggest problems plaguing older editions - the 10 minute work day - i.e. The PC's wake up, PCs fight a hard encounter, Spellcasters are drained of spells, party goes to bed.
#5 DarkSphinx Oct 19, 2011 1:05:50	Themes, Themes, and Themes. Here's why: Themes are a great way to differentiate between campaign settings, as exemplified by the Dark Sun and Neverwinter settings. Themes are the perfect venue for DMs to put their personal stamp on their own game worlds. Themes are cool. In a future edition, I would love to see a Dungeon Master's Guide released initially, which partly concentrates on "world-building" including using Themes to define the setting. And the Dungeons & Dragons Insider subscription would give the subscriber access to resources such as Themes from the various campaign settings, as examples, or to use in an actual Eberron, Dark Sun, or Neverwinter (etcetera) campaign. -DS
#6 greatfrito Oct 19, 2011 1:42:17	"One or two things" wouldn't be sufficient for me to buy a 5th edition - but I can list a few things that are necessary for me to consider buying a 5th edition. 1. Encounter Design Honestly, I include monsters in this - stats, design, format - all of it. This was one of the biggest things that got me back to D&D, and one of my most significant complaints about other d20 games. Without this - or something very, very similar - I'm probably not going to bother. 2. Equal-Opportunity Race/Class Design The other thing that got me back in was the parallel design for races and classes - particularly classes. I'm not just talking about the balance aspect (though that's a spectacular goal as well - even if it's never perfect), but about having all of the classes on the same system. I'll even stretch that to include the Essentials stuff. This is what caught my eye - and my imagination - with 4e (StarWars:Saga Edition for the most part, as well), and I'd hate to see it go. Only having to learn one system - and then the slight variations on that system based on your particular choices - is one of the primary draws for me. It all helps with the "balance" thing too (makes it easier). Seems good enough to leave it like that, even if I could add a few more.
#7 Tony_Vargas Oct 19, 2011 2:31:01	you get to save one or two features of 4th Edition that will be preserved (or at least ported) to 5th Edition. Everything you don't choose could potentially be on the chopping block. What do you pick? The AEDU class structure & level progression, including classes having one Source and one consistent primary role. Monster types and levels, especially, monsters being 'built' entirely differently from PCs. If you meant more specific bits: ...hmm... The Warlord. Healing Surges.
#8 Novacat Oct 19, 2011 2:36:03	1. The Powers System. Or at least something close to it; I'd rather they went to an encounter-based system and removed Daily powers and effects entirely. 2. The encounter design system, with simpler monsters and such. It makes the system a breeze to prep for. I was going to make my own post, but then I saw this, so I don't have to.
#9 pluisjen Oct 19, 2011 2:51:53	A focus on the cinematic rather then the simulationist and a focus on being the hero and his story instead of the long list of guys who for some strange reason keep doing each other's quests even though they never live long enough to get to know each other. Everything else can go as far as I'm concerned, assuming they can come up with something equally good or better.
#10 frothsof Oct 19, 2011 5:46:33	nothing would make me buy 5th edition
#11 Scottevil912 Oct 19, 2011 6:34:24	I have no plans to purchase 5th edition unless it is more or less easily compatible with one of the previous editions (Preferably 4e). It would basically have to be 4e with the math fixes put into place, maybe a bit more fluff in powers so they are more forward in their application outside of combat for those players who need it (to make my life as a DM a little easier).
#12 igniz Oct 19, 2011 6:37:08	I'd partially agree with frostof, nothing will make me buy 5e. Why would I bother with 5e? What is 5e offering me? There's nothing I'd want to keep, let 5e be what it wants to be. If it's better I'll go for it, if it isn't why would I ever bother?
#13 kev777 Oct 19, 2011 10:15:23	If you use the DDI tools you'll be forced to move to 5th since the 4th edition tools will cease to be supported.
#14 frothsof Oct 19, 2011 10:17:48	If you use the DDI tools you'll be forced to move to 5th since the 4th edition tools will cease to be supported. i dont know if that will happen. just stop updating them and keep them in a subscription. cant cost them much
#15 WotC_Trevor Oct 19, 2011 10:29:51	I'm deleting the posts that are off-topic or somewhat inflamatory. If you want to criticize 4E, and can do so constructively and respectfully, please do so in another thread.
#16 GMforPowergamers Oct 19, 2011 10:38:46	I want the multi and hybrid class rules more intergrated and fixed, but mostly remian. (I would say remove current power swap feats, and make 1 feat that at level 6 lets you swap 1 of each type) I want to see themes, but more intergrated at the heroic levels. I want to keep Paragon paths and Epic Destnies but with EDs being slightly redesigned I want to see PHB3and Essentials stlye where things are seprate but similar. I have no probelm with psionics having alot of at wills and power points, and slayers have no dailys and stances. But from the begining so that every power source plays a little diffrent, and each class in the source very slightly diffrent within the source. I want to see sup implments intergrated in with sup weapons from the begining I want to see races grow...maybe take 1 utilite in the heroic tier (maybe 6th) and make it a race power. then at levels 2 and 10 you have theme or class...
#17 ricksouth Oct 19, 2011 10:49:35	Really, really good adventures.
#18 AbdulAlhazred Oct 19, 2011 10:56:54	I think we really need to keep the basic rules for character and npc construction. Not in every detail, but roughly it needs to give the results that 4e does now. Good combat rules that work tactically. Again, not the same exact ones, but they need to work and not be either 'just wing it' nor stand there swinging while the wizard blows everything up.
#19 manion Oct 19, 2011 11:39:33	I like the race, paragon path, epic destiny, and theme system. I view them as all part of a single system. All of these things can add new powers and features onto your character. It helps customization, it's very very fluffy, and it doesn't have nearly as many problems as multi-classing did. I don't know what I'd pick for a number two. Anything that helps build encounters better.
#20 Steely_Dan Oct 19, 2011 12:18:57	I'd rather they went to an encounter-based system and removed Daily powers and effects entirely. Total, scrap that last Vancian vestige (and can cause meta-gaming). And while I initially liked the AEDU paradigm, I became a bit disillusioned with it (the homogenisation, all classes feeling a bit like a caster etc). I can see why they ditched it; new class, first level features, 100+ powers, rinse, repeat.
#21 Garthanos Oct 19, 2011 13:24:25	The things it must have from 4e are huge... ie the principle design goals of 4th edtion - I mean they can adjust there approach to accomplishing them for a 5e and they can expand on the goals perhaps to include more balance in "out of combat" mechanics for example. And it will need to be maybe 4 years in the future for me to spend on it.
#42 Krusk Oct 20, 2011 9:51:11	Very excited for 5e, and sort of cautiously hoping monte doesn't mess it up. Two things from 4e d20 class based. They could (should?) cut a lot of 4e and I would be ok, so long as it stayed fantasy based, a classed system, and d20 I'm at least planning to give it a shot.
#43 GhostStepper Oct 20, 2011 12:17:32	please, PLEASE, can we cut this elitist crud about 'dumbed down'? Yeah. At this point, calling 4e "dumbed down" is a joke. I have players that are overwhelmed by having to make sense of all of their racial powers, feat powers, class powers, theme powers, and item powers. They have stuff going off every round as minor actions, standard actions, move actions and 3 different off-turn actions in the form of free and immediate actions. Meanwhile they are keeping track of being concealed and stacking their CA with the encounter long bonus granted by the warlord and 2 other unnamed bonuses... I have sessions where some of the players are dying to go back to the "dumbed down" days of pre-4e.
#44 Istaran Oct 20, 2011 12:41:00	1. Every class being able to contribute at every level. I'm playing in another edition game currently, and its just painful to go back to spellcasters that suck most of the day at low levels. 2. Being awesome out of the gate. Another thing thats super painful to go back to: having to wait to for your character to eventually reach the point where its mechanically fun to play. You win, sir.
#45 Garthanos Oct 20, 2011 13:27:11	(human is no longer the best choice for any class, it is now only a competetive choice for any class). humans are not the best race fpr any class however and I dont like that My game world actually supports the idea of humans being rebellious, free spirited and creative and they believe they are the children of the divine (much like on earth) and I have considered giving humans heros a +2 charisma for a second stat bonus.