a move away from classes
chose power source and role, both role and source would would give you some options to chose fom ( maybe like point buy) the options you chose are the kind of things that are now class features
I really like the classless idea.
I could only imagine the mess Q and A threads would be like.
Don't forget the crazy "pick which rules you want" modules that Mearls had talked about.
I could only imagine the mess Q and A threads would be like.
Runaway Runaway... well now they will really need to invest in quality customer service personelle..... runaway runaway ... insanity ensues.
Well, yeah, except for the fact that all (optimised) characters tend to be within 1 or 2 points of the same accuracy all the time, if you correct for targetting NADs and proficiency bonuses. The game is balanced around the assumption that all the PCs hit at roughly the same rate when they are the same level. Divorcing it from ability scores simply means that you can mechanically support a wider range of role playing options - like the charismatic fighter, or the strong wizard, or the cleric who actually knows stuff about religion (to use a 4e example that's always bugged me).
Essentially, your stats could very easily be an indicator of personality and out-of-class ability, whilst your to-hit would remain roughly as it does now.
Isn't a strong wizard known as a sorcerer or swordmage this time around? Isn't the charismatic fighter the warlord?
I accept the annoyance about the wizard knowing more about religion than the religious dude. I get that.
Are you saying though that the abilities of a character should never directly influence their ability to hit someone with those attacks they learned?
Perhaps I am confused.
Show me the Swordmage or Wizard who has STR 20 and is still useful.
Show me the Fighter (and by that I mean Martial Defender) who has CHA 20 and is still useful*.
*And yes, I know that Knights can take 20 in basically any stat and be useful, more so if a half-elf - but Knights are a fairly strong move towards the sort of thing I'm interested in here. Between the various half-elf knights, and the eladrin knight, they do have MUCH more flexible primary stats and character abilities whilst not hampering their combat utility.
Basically, I'd like to see the ability to play any class, and still be educated, or still be able to talk without grunting, and have that reflected on my character sheet. I could reflavour, yes. CHAladins are pretty good for the latter option. But I'd like to see it reflected in the game itself. Ability-score-based attacking is one of the last big sacred cows of D&D, and I'd like to see an end to it.
one thing i love about Gamma World is that most of the origins give characters unique abilities, like being able to climb up flat surfaces or squeeze though a 1-inch hole as if it were nothing. That kind of stuff is great in combat but even better in non-combat because it gives players tools to do all kinds of crazy stuff. Gamma world might be an extreme but look at the Pixie, they can fly and shirk stuff! How cool is that! Now themes might help in this area but I've honestly only glanced at them and haven't used them in or game.
Gamma World did so much right. Fast, fun character gen. No math issues. No management of daily resources. Cool ammunition rules. As noted above, each origin had fun unique abilities. As a streamlined version of 4e it works so incredibly well.
I don't really have a point to this...just wishing that Gamma World's mechanics would spread to more stuff.
I don't specifically want it to spread. I'd just like more of it. ;)
Well, yeah, except for the fact that all (optimised) characters tend to be within 1 or 2 points of the same accuracy all the time, if you correct for targetting NADs and proficiency bonuses. The game is balanced around the assumption that all the PCs hit at roughly the same rate when they are the same level. Divorcing it from ability scores simply means that you can mechanically support a wider range of role playing options - like the charismatic fighter, or the strong wizard, or the cleric who actually knows stuff about religion (to use a 4e example that's always bugged me).
Essentially, your stats could very easily be an indicator of personality and out-of-class ability, whilst your to-hit would remain roughly as it does now.
Isn't a strong wizard known as a sorcerer or swordmage this time around? Isn't the charismatic fighter the warlord?
I accept the annoyance about the wizard knowing more about religion than the religious dude. I get that.
Are you saying though that the abilities of a character should never directly influence their ability to hit someone with those attacks they learned?
Perhaps I am confused.
Show me the Swordmage or Wizard who has STR 20 and is still useful.
Show me the Fighter (and by that I mean Martial Defender) who has CHA 20 and is still useful*.
*And yes, I know that Knights can take 20 in basically any stat and be useful, more so if a half-elf - but Knights are a fairly strong move towards the sort of thing I'm interested in here. Between the various half-elf knights, and the eladrin knight, they do have MUCH more flexible primary stats and character abilities whilst not hampering their combat utility.
Basically, I'd like to see the ability to play any class, and still be educated, or still be able to talk without grunting, and have that reflected on my character sheet. I could reflavour, yes. CHAladins are pretty good for the latter option. But I'd like to see it reflected in the game itself. Ability-score-based attacking is one of the last big sacred cows of D&D, and I'd like to see an end to it.
Not sure how the Knight works, exactly. I'd not mind though if they went halfway, and provided the classes with different subclass options that capitalized on different primary and secondary stats instead of always the same main stat defining a whole class.
Also, I would hope the wizard doesn't have a high strength, but I hope the Dragon Sorcerer has at about a 14-18 in Str. For the purposes of, however, having a arcane controller who uses Strength as their primary attack stat? I could see that as the classic "blaster" wizard, choosing more damage based powers, and in that case using Int as secondary, not primary.
I much prefer attacking to be linked to scores, but I'm not against those scores being changed to reflect the overall direction of a character, both within the game and on the sheet.
Simply put, yes. I love options. Character building is half the fun for me and my group, and is likely to take a whole session.
Character building should not be anything close to half the fun. You take 1 session to build a PC and then hopefully spend 75 sessions playing him. So we are down to around 1%.
It's doubtful we want it to be fun at all. We want players to enjoy their characters, not be thinking about building additional PC. In fact, it may be better if it is absolute drudgery. Not too much since we do want new players and we don't want to discourage them by a lot of work right at the start, but we are here to play D&D, not to make characters.
Now I have long preferred an almost classless D&D, on the order of GURPS. But a pure classless game has a major danger of the player gimping himself. The player, especially the new player, needs lots of guides. So I would see most classes as models the player can copy or alter rather than a choice that eliminates other classes.
With respect to the writer, I disagree 100% with this post. I love love love to create characters, and I certainly find it fun. And this is as a D&D'er who is rarely a player, and almost always DM'ing. So, for most of the characters I create, I don't get to play them at all. I thoroughly enjoy spending several hours adding interesting characters to my campaign.
Also, I would detest a classless system. If D&D ever came out with such, I'd never touch that version with a ten foot pole.
Simply put, yes. I love options. Character building is half the fun for me and my group, and is likely to take a whole session.
Character building should not be anything close to half the fun. You take 1 session to build a PC and then hopefully spend 75 sessions playing him. So we are down to around 1%.
It's doubtful we want it to be fun at all. We want players to enjoy their characters, not be thinking about building additional PC. In fact, it may be better if it is absolute drudgery. Not too much since we do want new players and we don't want to discourage them by a lot of work right at the start, but we are here to play D&D, not to make characters.
With respect to the writer, I disagree 100% with this post. I love love love to create characters, and I certainly find it fun. And this is as a D&D'er who is rarely a player, and almost always DM'ing. So, for most of the characters I create, I don't get to play them at all. I thoroughly enjoy spending several hours adding interesting characters to my campaign.
Even tho you speak loudly, you damn with faith praise. "...rarely a player...most of the characters I create, I don't get to play..." Now for your specialized situation, a fun character building process may be useful, but when the players are all thinking it is more fun to create a new PC than to play their existing one, how do we really even still have a game? Instead we just have 6 people sitting around at home making new characters who will never be used. Much better the player view the character making as work to be gotten thru and get enjoyment from the game itself.
If a player enjoys creating a new character, with a new history, new background, new focus, and new purpose a lot more than he likes playing said character, then the system can't change this (well I guess it could by making character generation quick, random, and boring and giving everyone backgrounds at random, but outside of Paranoia that sounds really dull). So blaming a system for having players is unfair.
Speaking of damning with faint praise... I can hardly believe I'm saying this, but I think DavidArgall actually has the semblance of a point here.
This is praising with faint damns.
Any reactions worth mention?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_m...
In the end the truth has a way of always surfacing.