what has our hobby come too...

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

darkhorse_steele

Apr 23, 2010 19:52:55
In recent discussions with fellow roleplayers, this point has come up as a hot-button issue...  It seems that DM's/GM's are of the impression that all of those little numbers on my character sheets (not to mention my dice) mean absolutely nothing.  A player should be able to make a skill check whenever for whatever. The DM makes the call as to whether it succeeds or fails. The player makes the skill check roll, the GM does not make the skill check roll for the player.  If I want to make a dex check to cross a tightrope and I am planted firmly on the ground, I should be able to make the roll. The DM Is supposed to decide if my tightrope walking succeeds or not.  In this case, I would obviously fail as there is no tightrope to traverse.

In a recent session my rogue was attempting to cross a 3 inch wide beam spanning a river.  The DM argued with me that the die roll for the skill checks where not my job but his.  I showed him in the Books where he was wrong. And after a heated shouting match, (immature on my part) I left the session/appartment. The DEX/balance/skill check die roll is the job of the player. The decision if the attempt succeeds or fails is the job of the DM. 

This is not just my DM's opinion how the rules work. Other DM's/GM's are of this apparently new opinion on the rules. Having talked to other groups, a lot of DM's are doing this... The rules in most RPG's are fairly flexable and a lot of groups have their own house rules.  But this kind of rules bending/breaking/disrespecting is extremely annoying to say the least. 
#2

salla

Apr 23, 2010 20:03:39
I agree with you.  The only time a DM should make a check for a player is if, somehow, the result isn't immediately obvious.  In the case of an Athletics check to walk over a tightrope, you know immediately if you succeeded or failed, so there's absolutely no reason for a DM to roll it.
#3

serbiansword

Apr 23, 2010 20:34:43
I agree with you.  The only time a DM should make a check for a player is if, somehow, the result isn't immediately obvious.  In the case of an Athletics check to walk over a tightrope, you know immediately if you succeeded or failed, so there's absolutely no reason for a DM to roll it.



And even when the result isn't immediately obvious players should  always roll the dice for their skills, that's my policy
Just use a box or something like that for the rolling. It's quite simple, take the box ( keyboard box for example) and put it in front of the players, they will roll the dice and you will just move the box out of their sights (or close the the top of the box if it can be closed) before the dice stops to roll. It may sound idiotic but believe me it's the best thing you can do to keep the game fair and square. In that way players will always have the control over their skills which is perfectly fine if you ask me.
#4

death_isthe_begining

Apr 26, 2010 18:34:47
I think players shouldn't know the DC of a skill check if it's not in the book, and they should be allowed to roll themselves as much as possible without ruining the story. Basically the only time the DM should roll for the player is when he is feeding possible misinformation from the npc's to the players.
#5

I_Hate_All_Life

Apr 28, 2010 8:10:56
I think part of the fun of playing is rolling the dice, seeing where character capability and chance intersect. When a GM removes that from the players, what he does is effectively place almost all the game's narrative power in his hands. (The DM has the bulk of that anyway.) The players can narrate their characters' actions, but they can't help determine the success of their efforts.

I can't attest to this GM's motives or rationale, but I can make some guesses. I can say with confidence he's abusing his power and not respecting his players; this issue should have been discussed with the players before the game even started. (When I take liberties with the game system or setting, for instance, I let people know this up front.) Did he offer any explanations why he wanted to make the rolls? If you guys are still on speaking terms and you feel he's worth the effort, you might want to sit down and talk with him about it, and see where he's coming from.

Maybe this guy has had issues with people misreporting die rolls ("I rolled a 20!" as a 12 shows on the die) or he just wants to speed things along. If this is the case, that's understandable, even though I think taking dice from the players isn't the way to address this. He may have even had some reason for wanting to make that specific die roll. But if the GM may be basically writing a story by himself with minimal input from the players, making it up as he goes along and rolling dice as a pretense (having already decided success or failure based on his vision). I've known GMs like that. In this case, he's clearly on a power trip and can write his stories without your help.

Sometimes it's good for GMs to make rolls for players. As has been mentioned, this is good when the outcome isn't certain or when the players don't know there are rolls to be made (like a PC resisting a secretly administered toxin). But these times should be fairly rare; a player should make most of the rolls for his character.
#6

CCS

May 21, 2010 15:16:10

In a recent session my rogue was attempting to cross a 3 inch wide beam spanning a river.  The DM argued with me that the die roll for the skill checks where not my job but his.  I showed him in the Books where he was wrong. And after a heated shouting match, (immature on my part) I left the session/appartment. The DEX/balance/skill check die roll is the job of the player. The decision if the attempt succeeds or fails is the job of the DM.  
 




Really though it can be done either way.  Regardless of what the book says.  It varies by group.  And it's nowhere near a "new" way of playing.

But when you try & win the argument by waving the book at the DM & shouting?  You've already lost....
 
#7

Malcadon

Jun 19, 2010 18:37:53
This is not just my DM's opinion how the rules work. Other DM's/GM's are of this apparently new opinion on the rules. Having talked to other groups, a lot of DM's are doing this... The rules in most RPG's are fairly flexable and a lot of groups have their own house rules.  But this kind of rules bending/breaking/disrespecting is extremely annoying to say the least. 


Actually, its the oldest rule in the book!

You see, before D&D got all tight with the rules and brought in all that fancy skill rolls, DMs had to rule on everything! If your PC had to cross a tightrope, the DM had to figure how this would happen. The DM might say "roll (a d20) at or under your Dex to make it across", or "if you roll a 5 or more (on a d6), you fall". The DM might make a direct judgment call, like "this task is was well within your character's capability, so you make it across", or "you slipped on slime, and fell to your death", but this is rarely done if their is a chance of success or failure. The reason for this, is because D&D started off as a crude mish-mash of wargaming rules, and you had to be vary clever and open-ended to make the rules workable. The original intention of role-playing mechanics was to give combat an abstract context of success and failure, and was not meant to be all inclusive - that is why its called a "role-playing" game, and not a "roll-playing" game!

I personally like this style becuase it makes things a lot more versatile, and I don't have to be a slave to the rules. Above all else, I hate indexing the rulebook over every little thing!

For more info in this, read: A Quick Primer for Old School Gaming.

I showed him in the Books where he was wrong.


GMs like him - including myself - hate Rule-lawyering. Its generally considered rude and disruptive to the flow of the game. Its is also expected that the players should focus more on the character's actions and dialog, then fret over the technical stuff.